Wtc 7 And Sandero, NIST v speculation Options

[elreb]

Let’s try to do this by the numbers

1. Jennings and Hess said they made it down to the 6th floor before the explosions of 9:35 am stopped them. [9:20 am per Kawika]

2. Building engineer, Michael Catalano reported fires on the 5th floor.

3. Catalano was able to exit on the west side, indicating that the east side transfer corridor was blown out.

4. The third witness and NYFD made it back up the west stairs to the west transfer corridor.

WTC7 had power at 9:30 am

5. 13,800 Volts went to the 5th floor to “concrete vaults” where they were step down to 480/277 Volts.

6. Silicon based oil is non-toxic and fire resistant. It is very hard to burn.

7. Except for fuel, no combustible material was found on the 5th and 6th floor. The nine 1750 KW generators would only flow fuel if they were running.

8. No records or evidence of fires or smoke on 5th and 6th floors. [When the FD got there]

9. Con-Ed reported no fires or explosions in the sub-station

10. Feeds to WTC 1, WTC 2 and WTC 7 shut off by automatic “Switchgear” because shorts or interruptions were detected. Con-Ed still had power [138,000 Volts until 4:33 pm]

Conclusion: It is very possible that the transfer vaults on the 5th floor were exploded. [Blown up]

(IMG:http://www.rebrammer.com/images/wtc7floor2.jpg)

[onesliceshort]

Two points for Joe...


WTC building performance study

5.3.5 Power

Power to WTC7 entered at 13,800 volts was stepped down to 480/277 Volts by silicone oil-filled transformers in individual masonry vaults on the 5th floor

BUT

This still puts us back on the 5th floor were the explosions came from...

(IMG:http://www.dieselserviceandsupply.com/uploads/49443-1.jpg)

Looks like the pappy of the alleged Pentagon generator meant to be inside the container

(IMG:http://i53.tinypic.com/fef23r.jpg)

Elreb, why did the explosions that Jennings and Hess described have to come from the fifth floor (I'll have to listen to the interview again)?

And the explosions they experienced were allegedly at least half an hour(?) after the second impact. The transformers have a trip switch with a 1/60th of a second delay, so I can't figure out what could cause the alleged explosion.

Do what you will with this post. I'm way oit of my league.
Portion a 120kg blue tuna? No probs. All I know about transformers is not to go near them.

And that diesel fires produce smoke. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Edit: just saw your post

This post has been edited by onesliceshort: May 14 2012, 07:41 PM

[onesliceshort]

Is the fifth floor seen in these images and do they correspond with the floor plans?

Anybody know what time they were taken?

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx208/k...erG_CD2-063.jpg

As above. Sequential.

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx208/k...erG_CD2-064.jpg

As above. Sequential.

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx208/k...erG_CD2-065.jpg

As above. Sequential.

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx208/k...erG_CD2-068.jpg

As above. Sequential.

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx208/k...erG_CD2-069.jpg

As above. Sequential.

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx208/k...erG_CD2-070.jpg

If there were fires, wouldn't acrid, black smoke be pouring out of the "louvres" (exhaust air passages?)?

[elreb]

Elreb, why did the explosions that Jennings and Hess described have to come from the fifth floor (I'll have to listen to the interview again)?

And the explosions they experienced were allegedly at least half an hour(?) after the second impact. The transformers have a trip switch with a 1/60th of a second delay, so I can't figure out what could cause the alleged explosion.

The 5th and 6th floors were functionally connected by 22 feet of ventilation air space; therefore if one floor had an explosion, it would affect both floors.

There were few windows on the 5/6 floors, however there were many automatic louvers that opened when the fans were operating.

I personally do not see a relationship between the explosions and the second impact.

I hinted towards = blown up…

Kill the data and the paper trail…follow the money… $2.3 trillion missing on September 10, 2001

Many thanks to Kawika, OSS and especially SanderO

Yippee, I get to start a new webpage…

[kawika]

Elreb, why did the explosions that Jennings and Hess described have to come from the fifth floor (I'll have to listen to the interview again)?

And the explosions they experienced were allegedly at least half an hour(?) after the second impact.

I submit that because Jennings described his experience as the landing below him giving way, leaving him hanging, this means fifth floor activity causing damage to the sixth floor landing.

Not so fast with the half hour after the second plane impact. He said they arrived at WTC7 before 9:03. They went up in the elevator, found OEM locked, back down to the 3rd floor lobby to get a key, back up elevator to OEM, made a few phone calls and then went down 16 flights of stair to #6 where he experienced an explosion below him. I say he got to 6th floor before 9:20 am.

We know that OEM was evacuated right after 9:03 (according to Richard Shierer's 9/11 Commission testimony) Jennings and Hess just missed the closing of the doors.

[kawika]

Is the fifth floor seen in these images and do they correspond with the floor plans?

Anybody know what time they were taken?

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx208/k...erG_CD2-063.jpg

As above. Sequential.

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx208/k...erG_CD2-064.jpg

As above. Sequential.

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx208/k...erG_CD2-065.jpg

As above. Sequential.

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx208/k...erG_CD2-068.jpg

As above. Sequential.

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx208/k...erG_CD2-069.jpg

As above. Sequential.

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx208/k...erG_CD2-070.jpg

If there were fires, wouldn't acrid, black smoke be pouring out of the "louvres" (exhaust air passages?)?

63. None of WTC7 here.
64. Fourth window from the top. 5th and 6th floors correspond to the ventilation grills on the east face. Top broken window (8th floor) is where Hess calls from.
65. Same as 64.
68. Only can see the 5/6 grills on the east face.
69. Same as 68.
70. Same as 64. Time is around 2:10 pm, fire is burning on floor 12, SE corner.

NIST says the same thing about the louvres. No smoke coming out, therefore no fire on five/six. Bit this was many hours after Jennings' event which may have been an explosion, no fire. The Catalano story happens on the other side (west) so smoke may have been vented to the west louvers. Again, many hours earlier.

Good exploration. Keep up the momentum.

[elreb]

This picture is very powerful…Securities & Exchange Commission on fire...

(IMG:http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx208/kennyrk3/911%20NIST%20FOIA%20-%20George%20Miller/NYCTA-MillerG_CD2-070.jpg)

[SanderO]

Louvers may be connected to sealed / isolated ducts not simply open up into the general air of the floor. In fact louvers and grilles are the terminations of ducts... and could be intake or exhaust. HVAC systems require exchange of air inside the building... and this is accomplished in closed loops. I suppose it conceivable to equipment to be burning inside on a floor without the smoke getting inside the ducts and find its way out the grillage.

It's also possible that if the smoke filled air was exhausted out "the path of least resistance..." which might include elevator shafts and so forth...

And we don't know how destructive the Jennings Hess explosions were beyond blowing up the stair they were trying to descend... or what they were. Could they have damaged some of the trusses and cantilever girders? Could they have caused the diesel fuel system to leak and burn? Maybe the diesel fire was not vast and spreading all around but concentrated in one or a few locations but burning for hrs... like jets on a gas stove? And you have to consider the prevailing winds that day and the micro climate/winds of these tall structures. The north and west face of B7 was to windward and so air pressure on the south and east side would be lower - less smoke or none on the windward side and lots on the lee side. It's a bit complicated to say the least adding in the multi story spaces... the large plenums and vertical shafts of the elevators and mech rises adjacent to floors 4,5,6 & 7 and massive ducts and grillage.

[kawika]

Louvers may be connected to sealed / isolated ducts not simply open up into the general air of the floor. In fact louvers and grilles are the terminations of ducts... and could be intake or exhaust. HVAC systems require exchange of air inside the building... and this is accomplished in closed loops. I suppose it conceivable to equipment to be burning inside on a floor without the smoke getting inside the ducts and find its way out the grillage.

It's also possible that if the smoke filled air was exhausted out "the path of least resistance..." which might include elevator shafts and so forth...

And we don't know how destructive the Jennings Hess explosions were beyond blowing up the stair they were trying to descend... or what they were. Could they have damaged some of the trusses and cantilever girders? Could they have caused the diesel fuel system to leak and burn? Maybe the diesel fire was not vast and spreading all around but concentrated in one or a few locations but burning for hrs... like jets on a gas stove? And you have to consider the prevailing winds that day and the micro climate/winds of these tall structures. The north and west face of B7 was to windward and so air pressure on the south and east side would be lower - less smoke or none on the windward side and lots on the lee side. It's a bit complicated to say the least adding in the multi story spaces... the large plenums and vertical shafts of the elevators and mech rises adjacent to floors 4,5,6 & 7 and massive ducts and grillage.

NCSTAR 1-9, Vol 1, section 3.3.2 describes the plenums for intake and exhaust of the generator systems on floor 5.

[elreb]

Maybe the diesel fire was not vast and spreading all around but concentrated in one or a few locations but burning for hrs...

I am all for facts! Just the facts! [SanderO]

Could you please direct us to the report that indicates diesel fires?

[onesliceshort]

This picture is very powerful…Securities & Exchange Commission on fire...

(IMG:http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx208/kennyrk3/911%20NIST%20FOIA%20-%20George%20Miller/NYCTA-MillerG_CD2-070.jpg)

Aah, that's the window Jennings said that he busted (thanks kawika).

And yes Elreb, I think a few offices were torched that morning.

Why was OEM trying to get back in at 1pm (allegedly)?

Must have been checking for the indoors-only fuel fire smoke...

Edit: is there a precise time for the Jennings/Hess rescue?

This post has been edited by onesliceshort: May 14 2012, 11:10 PM

[onesliceshort]

Edit: is there a precise time for the Jennings/Hess rescue?

Very good breakdown here:

http://www.wanttoknow.info/008/hessjenning...siontvbroadcast

Here's a quote that stood out to me from Hess

“[W]e were trapped on the eighth floor with smoke, thick smoke, all around us, for about an hour and a half [before] the New York Fire Department . . . came and got us out."

He's obviously not talking about smoke within the building but vehicles on fire outside it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZduP7HTM3cg

So how'd these two survive with all of this "indoor smoke" allegedly 2 or 3 floors below for an hour and a half? And where's the smoke in his window?

[elreb]

And where's the smoke in his window?

It appears that Jennings and Hess are real and accurate.

Not all explosions cause fire and smoke.

Dust will calm down in about 30 minutes.

Rescue time appears to be around 11:30 am.

[onesliceshort]

It appears that Jennings and Hess are real and accurate.

Not all explosions cause fire and smoke.

Dust will calm down in about 30 minutes.

Rescue time appears to be around 11:30 am.

Oh yeah, I'm referring to the alleged "diesel fires" on floors below.

[kawika]

Very good breakdown here:

http://www.wanttoknow.info/008/hessjenning...siontvbroadcast

Here's a quote that stood out to me from Hess



He's obviously not talking about smoke within the building but vehicles on fire outside it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZduP7HTM3cg

So how'd these two survive with all of this "indoor smoke" allegedly 2 or 3 floors below for an hour and a half? And where's the smoke in his window?

• Concerning the DRG timeline: He says:

How did Jennings know that they were still standing? Jennings' statement, quoted more fully---"When we made it back to the 8th floor, . . . both buildings were still standing. Because I looked to---I looked one way, looked the other way, now there's nothing there. . . . [B]oth buildings were still standing" [10] ---might be taken to mean that he could see the Twin Towers. That would entail that he and Hess were on the south side of WTC 7, which faced the towers.

But that would be incorrect. Jennings stated that he was on "the North side of the building." He indicated, moreover, that when the towers fell, he could not see them fall.

Jennings could easily walk to the south side of the office and look out the window. There is no reason to confine him to the NE window. Take a look at the office layout. NCSTAR 1-9, Vol 1, Page 56, PDF Page 100.

He perhaps did not actually see them fall because he was holed up inside that corner office with a broken window on the windward side. With the door closed they may have been relatively smoke free.

Jennings says however that it was very, very hot-- that he attempted to use a fire hose to rappel down and was told don't do this by the FDNY.

• Concerning the video, there is no way of knowing the continuity of these clips all strung together. I will point out the difference of the two Hess window shots.

In the first clip he can be seen yelling straight down to someone near the base. The air is still cloudy. In the second clip he is talking to people out in Barclay Street. The air is much clearer.

I suggest the first is after 10 am and the second is a bit later, but before 10:30. The reason I say this is because when the cop walks away there are no cars on fire. I believe there is good evidence to suggest the cars on Barclay did not torch until after 10:30.

I want to know three things:

1. How come there is only one video of someone trapped on 9/11? (HESS).

2. How come this footage only lasts less than one minute total?


3. How come we've never seen any video of Jennings at the window?

[elreb]

I'm referring to the alleged "diesel fires" on floors below.

10:00 am fire alarm was set off triggered by smoke or by dust from south tower

Fire command Station no mention of any fire alarm

[elreb]

We know that OEM was evacuated right after 9:03 (according to Richard Shierer's 9/11 Commission testimony) Jennings and Hess just missed the closing of the doors.

For what its worth:

I actually worked at WTC7 and was there on 9-11. From the minute the first plane hit the towers, WTC7 was getting hit with debris.
In fact, when I finally got down to the lobby 45 minutes later, we were all forced to leave through the back since so much debris had hit the building and blocked the entrance.

An employee of Solomon Smith Barney

This would be around 9:30 am

[onesliceshort]

For what its worth:

I actually worked at WTC7 and was there on 9-11. From the minute the first plane hit the towers, WTC7 was getting hit with debris.
In fact, when I finally got down to the lobby 45 minutes later, we were all forced to leave through the back since so much debris had hit the building and blocked the entrance.

An employee of Solomon Smith Barney

This would be around 9:30 am

You were actually in WTC7 on 9/11 Elreb??

Must be why it's so difficult to find images from (or of) the wtc7 southside if they evacuated out the back door (northside of the building?).

@kawika

The MSM footage of the area (such as the Hess footage) is just as chopped, editted and (intentionally) confusing as the Pentagon footage. The key to Hess/Jennings would be to identify and contact the guy Jennings thanked for helping him in the original footage (the shy black guy).

PS:

In the "clearer images" of Hess, you can see plumes of smoke (possibly from the vehicle that was fully ablaze in the smokier shot?) reflected in the window beside Hess.

Just speculation, but maybe Jennings was at another window looking for help (why it would be good to contact that other guy) while Hess stayed at the one we see in the video?

I know I'd do the same. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dunno.gif)

[kawika]

You were actually in WTC7 on 9/11 Elreb??

Must be why it's so difficult to find images from (or of) the wtc7 southside if they evacuated out the back door (northside of the building?).

There are no North exits.

Who was the SSB employee? I'd appreciate the source of that quote.

[elreb]

There are no North exits.

Who was the SSB employee? I'd appreciate the source of that quote.

forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1918455&postcount=49

NDBoston
Scholar

Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 104
Truthseeker:

I actually worked at WTC7 and was there on 9-11. From the minute the first plane hit the towers, WTC7 was getting hit with debris.

In fact, when I finally got down to the lobby 45 minutes later, we were all forced to leave through the back since so much debris had hit the building and blocked the entrance.

I also would love to have someone tell me how the 28-44th floors were wired for demolition, when we packed like sardines after the merger with Smith Barney and most floors had people on them 7 days a week. ( A few floors were trading floors so it was 24x7 and many worked 6-7 days a week), and I never saw one construction crew in my time there doing anything significant.

Why won't CT's talk to people who worked at WTC7? My friends and I who worked with at Salomon are eager to talk but I'm guessing you won't like the answers.
Last edited by NDBoston; 13th September 2006 at 06:12 AM. Reason: spelling corrections

ALSO

In the Hess video, I see a ramp below him and a back door next to the cop car! [frame 2:38] Perhaps to Con-Ed?