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Investigators Have Identified The Signal From One Of The Black Boxes In The Wtc Debris

caveman
post Aug 22 2012, 04:41 PM
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The official story is that none of the black boxes of the flights that hit WTC 1 and WTC 2 were recovered.

And there is of course the story of DeMasi and Belone that 3 of the 4 boxes WERE recovered:

QUOTE
“At one point, I was asked to take Federal Agents around the site to search for the black boxes from the planes,” he wrote. “We were getting ready to go out. My ATV was parked at the top of the stairs at the Brooks Brothers entrance area. We loaded up about a million dollars worth of equipment and strapped it into the ATV...”
“There were a total of four black boxes. We found three.”
Efforts over several days to locate and interview DeMasi, who is now said to be with the FDNY’s Marine Unit, were not successful.
But his account was verified by another member of the so-called TRAC Team, recovery site volunteer Bellone. He recalled FBI agents arriving for the search one day in early October, setting up their equipment near Brooks Brothers. He said he didn’t go out with them on the ATV but observed their search.
At one point, Bellone said he observed the team with a box that appeared charred but was redish-orange with two white stripes. Pictures of the flight recorders on the NTSB and other Web sites show devices that are orange, with two white stripes.
“There was the one that I saw, and two others were recovered in different locations - but I wasn’t there for the other two,” Bellone said. He said the FBI agents left with the boxes.

(source http://www.pnionline.com/dnblog/extra/archives/001139.html etc)

Whatever either DeMasi or Belone may or may not have done wright or wrong in the aftermath of 9/11 (there is some discussion whether there was a matter of personal benefit or misuse of uniforms etc), today I stumbled upon one of the most import discoveries in my personal investigation of 9/11.

When sifting through thousands of FOIA requested i downloaded up to now, I stumbled upon this letter of the New York Mayers Emergercy Office to governor Pataki.

In the letter of September 18th (2001) director Edward F. Jacoby jr wrote to governor Pataki:
"Investigators have identified the signal from one of the black boxes in the WTC debris"

Impossible and hoax you would say.
No.. here's the page of that particular letter: http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u432/c...er/59469e0b.png

You can find the original set from FOIA's this one came from at: http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/229...foil-sec-4.html

This information has not surfaced in years. How can investigators have been able to identify the signal of the black boxes, and still there is the official statement that none of the boxes were recovered?

Of course.. having the beacon of the black box operational does not say anything of the contents or usability of the tapes or info of the blackboxes themselfs, but here is - in my humble opinion - another smoking gun the we were not told the whole truth about these black boxes not being found at all!

Someone has some explaining to do! yes1.gif

Caveman
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amazed!
post Aug 23 2012, 02:07 PM
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Good work Caveman! thumbsup.gif
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rob balsamo
post Aug 24 2012, 12:56 PM
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Excellent find... thank you!
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kawika
post Aug 24 2012, 10:31 PM
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I find it impossible that they would not recover any shred of the boxes. When will we see the inventory of the plane parts sifted from the rubble?

I doubt they would set up six "camera points" if they didn't believe the boxes were in there. They have never identified exactly where the cameras were set up, what they captured or who was operating them.

NTSB had 28 employees on the site and at Freshkills through OCT 2001.

NTSB did a debris trajectory study, but only for UA175. They identified Park Place as the limit of travel distance, but we all know the engine was found further out at Murray Street. Why would they fail to do a study of AA11 debris?

http://www.911myths.com/images/b/b7/Debris...tudy--UA175.pdf
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caveman
post Aug 25 2012, 05:13 AM
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QUOTE (kawika @ Aug 25 2012, 04:31 AM) *
I find it impossible that they would not recover any shred of the boxes. When will we see the inventory of the plane parts sifted from the rubble?

I doubt they would set up six "camera points" if they didn't believe the boxes were in there. They have never identified exactly where the cameras were set up, what they captured or who was operating them.

NTSB had 28 employees on the site and at Freshkills through OCT 2001.

NTSB did a debris trajectory study, but only for UA175. They identified Park Place as the limit of travel distance, but we all know the engine was found further out at Murray Street. Why would they fail to do a study of AA11 debris?

http://www.911myths.com/images/b/b7/Debris...tudy--UA175.pdf


@Kawika: I think your right on this. We should get clarity on these issues.

I posted some findings at another forum. While normally I would not endorse crossposting on several forums, the following information is also to be taken into account when questioning the matter of finding any FDR/CVR at WTC and I think I should publish at Pilots4truth forum as well.

So what do we know...

Fact 1. Black boxes.
Black boxes are designed to survive a whole scala of disasters. Of course there are examples where the black boxes have not be retrieved, but in most cases is it not the actual retrieval of the black boxes that is an issue. When there is trouble regarding black boxes it has to do with data not being able to be read etc.

Black boxes are installed in the back of the plane to enhance the chances of them actually surviving the disaster.



Fact 2. Broad attention towards finding the boxes.
In the aftermath of 9/11 broad attention was given to make rescueworkers aware of the fact that retrieving these boxes was considered vital.

As example: this poster was being spread:



QUOTE
Transcript: MISSING FLIGHT RECORDERS
(BLACK BOXES)

ATTENTION: If above units or components, including loose circuit boards or 3.5" magnetic tape reels, are found, document location, secure immediately and provide to the FBI. Items may be blackened, charred or rusted in appearance with no discernable lettering.


and another poster (which is said to come from the landfill site) (thanks to Fubar from Letsrol forum for pointing towards this second poster):


Fact 3. On or before September 18th, signal was detected.
The letter of director of OEM of NY send to the governor states clearly (even as first item in this 'fairly' important' document) that investigators have tracked a signal from one of the black boxes.



Fact 4. Reports by New York Times.
On September 19th, the New York Times reports the following:

QUOTE
One encouraging bit of news, at least for the investigation, came late yesterday, when a law enforcement official said the ''pinging'' of a black box from a hijacked plane might have been detected.

''They are picking up some pinging, but there is so much stuff on top of it, including ironwork, that it will take some time for them to get to it,'' the official said.

(ref: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/19/nyregion...mp;pagewanted=1)

Fact 5. DeMasi and Bellone
Both DeMasi and Bellone stated that black boxes were indeed recovered, Bellone only having seen one of them, DeMasi having accompanied the FBI personell that actually retrieved the boxes.

Fact 6. Official Report 9/11 commission.
A footnote to the official 9/11 commission report states:
QUOTE
“The CVRs and FDRs from American 11 and United 175” - the two planes that hit the Trade Center - “were not found.”


Fact 7. Black Box flight 93.
The black box of flight 93 (or some say: alleged black box) has been recovered.


Fact 8. Dan Rather.
At some point (we do not know exactly which date/time yet, some sites mention September 12 th) Dan Rather of CBS announced that one of the black boxes was found.
Some minutes Dan Rather apoligized and said he made a mistake.

Initiatial announcement: download FLV
Apologies and no box found: download FLV

Exact date of retrieval of the black boxes.

As a matter of fact from combing sources and straight forward thinking one can pretty well pinpoint the date that most likely the flightrecorders WERE found.

Soon after all search and rescue operations started, we see the first reports of the NTSB being present at the site.
The meeting minutes of september 24th show the NTSB being present and requesting assistance in case the black boxes are to be recovered.



From the NYFD Incident Action Plan from september 25th we learn that the NTSB is planning to set up 'observation points'.



From the NYFD Incident Action Plan from september 25th we learn that five (5) observation points are active, and a sixth is on it way to be realised.



By september 28th all six observation points are active, as we read in the NYFD documentation for that day:



From this day on the six observation points are mentioned every day in the FDNY documentation, like for example september 30th:




Continued in next post...
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caveman
post Aug 25 2012, 05:14 AM
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Just to check if everything is still in place we check the docs on october 3th: a number of 6 camera points (tracking stations) are still in place:



On oktober 21th still a number of five (5) monitoring stations is active. (I've been told that the sixt location had to be given up because of changes in the crane plan for Ground Zero...)



But... What happens at october 22th?

All but two monitoring stations have been removed or abandoned!



Clearly 'five' was still in the original papers handed to all chiefs at the meeting, however, during the meeting it was announced that in stead of 5 stations only 2 stations remain.

As of october 23th, the number of stations operational to assist in the retrieval of the flight data recorders is as low as 2:



Why this sudden change in efforts if no FDR or CVR has been found yet and debris removal operation still in action?


NTSB own records.

When asked by means of FOIA, the NTSB has stated the following regarding their personell efforts:

QUOTE
Pentagon on scene support:
  • Sept 12; Began round-the-clock-support, 2 investigators per shift, 12 hr shift
  • Sept 14; CVR and FDR recovered
  • Sept 27; On-scene activity completed
  • 22 investigators involved


Pennsylvania on-scene support:
  • Sept 11; 3 NTSB investigators launces to crash site
  • Sept 13; FDR recovered
  • Sept 14; CVR recovered
  • Sept 24; On-scene activity completed
  • 6 NTSB investigators involved


WTC on-scene support:
  • Sept 11; 3 NTSB investigators at Ground Zero
  • Sept 27 - Oct 4: 24 hour support. 14 NTSB investigators at FBI command post (1), 3 camera sites at Ground zero (6), Staten Island landfill (1), 12 hr shifts
  • Oct 4-17; 24 hour landfill support, 2 NTSB investigators per shift
  • Oct 18 - Dec 1: One NTSB investigator per day
  • 28 NTSB investigators involved to date

Source: the above list comes from an NTSB FOAI request and appeal.


So what questions do we have:

  • What was the source for director Jacoby to write to the governor that the signal of one of the boxes was identified*?
  • What was the source for the New York times with similar information?
  • Since we have the NYFD incident action plans mentioning the 6 (later 5) camera positions being set up until Oct 21th, we have a major issue that according to the NTSB personell overview the NTSB personell for these observation posts was only present till Oct. 4th (see above).
  • We are unclear as to what reason the NTSB had to lower their nr. of investigators at Oct 4.
  • We are unclear as to what the reason was that the NSTB lowered their number of observation posts at Oct 21 from 6 to 2 (according to NYFD IAP)
  • We are unclear why the NTSB states that they had 3 camera sites at WTC, while NYFD says they had 6.


* Regarding the signal.
Each FDR and CVR are required to carry a so called ULB (Underwater Locator Beacon). The beacon is located at the front of the units below (cylindershaped 'handle') and this beacons sends a beep at 37.5 Khz every second.



Closeup:


My hypothesis:

since there are no other 'devices' known to generate a pulse a 37.5 Khz every second, the only thing that could be reffered to when saying 'investigators have identified the signal' is the real thing beeping. The black box or boxes that were being mentioned by DeMasi and Bellone were retrieved at october 21th, 2001 at latest.

Caveman
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onesliceshort
post Aug 25 2012, 08:46 AM
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Wasn't there a similar situation at the Pentagon? Claims that a "signal" was picked up only to be denied later by the media? Sorry for the hit and run post. I'll have to hunt that info out. I'm nearly sure that it was around the same day that the alleged recovery of a black box was recovered by a firefighter only to be denied as well.

Thanks for the info caveman. Very interesting.
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caveman
post Aug 25 2012, 10:13 AM
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QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Aug 25 2012, 02:46 PM) *
Wasn't there a similar situation at the Pentagon? Claims that a "signal" was picked up only to be denied later by the media? Sorry for the hit and run post. I'll have to hunt that info out. I'm nearly sure that it was around the same day that the alleged recovery of a black box was recovered by a firefighter only to be denied as well.

Thanks for the info caveman. Very interesting.


Thanks for the info. Indeed there was. However... this is solely about the situation at WTC.

I have added some VERY INTERESTING STUFF at http://letsrollforums.com/investigators-ha...nal-t28453.html (especially from page 2 and further).

I recommend reading it.

Caveman

This post has been edited by caveman: Aug 25 2012, 10:15 AM
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amazed!
post Aug 27 2012, 02:51 PM
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Welcome, Caveman, and thanks for all the work! cheers.gif
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