The Movement, Social Fears, Economy, The Future, (IOW- concrete & WTC ), merged Options

[Sanders]

I was gonna post "nope, you didn't prove it, sorry, I'm not convinced".

Then I tried to find Robertson's remarks in this (linked above), but I gave up.

Finally I read through http://web.archive.org/web/20040807085840/...com/id/3069641/ (also linked in the above post) and found the applicable text in the fourth paragraph:

Newsweek/MSNBC:

...Still, Robertson, whose firm is responsible for three of the six tallest buildings in the world, feels a sense of pride that the massive towers, supported by a steel-tube exoskeleton and a reinforced concrete core, held up as well as they did...

That's good evidence for what you're saying, Christophera. But, in my opinion, you fail to present the important things in a way people can find them. If there's something similar in that pdf document, you should quote it, instead of expecting everyone to read through a 30 page document to try and find it. (Maybe you posted only the links because I asked you specifically to keep it short?)

Anyway, thanks. Now we're getting somewhere.

[Christophera]

I was gonna post "nope, you didn't prove it, sorry, I'm not convinced".

Then I tried to find Robertson's remarks in this (linked above), but I gave up.

Finally I read through http://web.archive.org/web/20040807085840/...com/id/3069641/ (also linked in the above post) and found the applicable text in the fourth paragraph:

That's good evidence for what you're saying, Christophera. But, in my opinion, you fail to present the important things in a way people can find them. If there's something similar in that pdf document, you should quote it, instead of expecting everyone to read through a 30 page document to try and find it. (Maybe you posted only the links because I asked you specifically to keep it short?)

Anyway, thanks. Now we're getting somewhere.

Hmmmm, if you notice that is an archive. It has changed a few times and I've had to change the link with it. Maybe an old one was lingering.

http://web.archive.org/web/20040807085840/...com/id/3069641/

Still, Robertson, whose firm is responsible for three of the six tallest buildings in the world, feels a sense of pride that the massive towers, supported by a steel-tube exoskeleton and a reinforced concrete core, held up as well as they did—managing to stand for over an hour despite direct hits from two massive commercial jetliners.

THe PDF of August Dhomel, Ph.d SE. PE. has the concrete core statement at chapter 2.1.

August Domel, Jr., Ph.D., S.E., P.E. November 2001

Groundbreaking for construction of the World Trade Center took place on August 5, 1966 Tower One, standing 1368 feet high, was completed in 1970, and Tower Two, at 1362 feet high, was completed in 1972. The structural design for the World Trade Center Towers was done by Skilling, Helle, Christiansen and Robertson. It was designed as a tube building that included a perimeter moment-resisting frame consisting of steel columns spaced on 39-inch centers. The load carrying system was designed so that the steel facade would resist lateral and gravity forces and the interior concrete core would carry only gravity loads.

Sorry, I've had these items, with excerpts on my site at,

http://algoxy.com/conc/core.html

for 4 years and I assume that most at a board I've been posting at for over a year would have examined the material I've made available there.

There is no site that is dedicated to evidencing the steel core columns that FEMA presents. Mostly poorly or misinterpreted construction photos that cannot be confirmed from 9-11 images.

Of course the perps would know they intended this deception and removed the concrete core construction images from the archive of images to be released, but we wouldn't know to copy them in 1999. The 9-11 images do not lie, even if FEMA does. The core they describe is never seen on 9-11, but structure that can only be concrete is seen, over and over.

This post has been edited by Christophera: Feb 21 2009, 02:24 PM

[Sanders]

(IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif)

[amazed!]

Not to be redundant, but I find Christophera's theory to be fairly compelling. That, as a layman who knows nothing of construction techniques except what I've read here.

What it explains to me is a plausible reason for all the pulverized concrete, absent the presence of some sort of DEW. Again as a layman, it doesn't seem the concrete present in the floor slabs would provide enough material for so much concrete dust, and it would seem that even with charges placed appropriately on steel members, the floor slabs would have been more in the "pancake" style of falling which would not seem to actually pulverize them.

Anyway, I'm glad there seems to be an understanding now. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/cheers.gif)

[Christophera]

Not to be redundant, but I find Christophera's theory to be fairly compelling. That, as a layman who knows nothing of construction techniques except what I've read here.

What it explains to me is a plausible reason for all the pulverized concrete, absent the presence of some sort of DEW. Again as a layman, it doesn't seem the concrete present in the floor slabs would provide enough material for so much concrete dust, and it would seem that even with charges placed appropriately on steel members, the floor slabs would have been more in the "pancake" style of falling which would not seem to actually pulverize them.

Anyway, I'm glad there seems to be an understanding now. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/cheers.gif)

Yes quantity of dust is something that has to be explained, and qualities. I have an original analysis I can post. It takes up way too much space tho and is not greatly useful. The one thing I found in it that really got me was that the dust, very small, had a great deal of iron and chromium bonded to it. Something that takes tremendous heat and pressure. Then, the rebar was unique in that it was high tensile which has loads of chromium.

A few truthseekers over the years have gained an appreciation for explosive containment through these discussions. So much so I could tell that they had a true understanding of how its is done and what happens to the explosion and the material containing it. Concrete after a certain thicknes relating to its aggregate size gains a consistency that is quite controllable, meaning that as a container for explosives it is actually quite predictable. It also means that the explosive charge can be placed in near perfect equilibrium within the contianer relating to the breaching force needed for the gases to escape. This allows a shock wave of near maximum proportions to develop uniformly around the detonation. That shock wave involves the concrete materials rather completely reducing them to very small sizes and everthing proximal to the detonation, depending on its density, becomes highly heated and completely mixed together by the explosive source of the shock wave.

Another thing it does is uniformly slows the escaping gases. It muffles the blast when the gases are forced to escape by spreading out. In that spreading out the particulate that comprised the concrete is massively accelerated near the speeds of the escaping gasses. Then there is the sound created by uncontained compared to contained blasts. Compare a single shaped charge cutting some 3/8 plate,

YouTube - Linear shaped charge

to the high speed delayed detonations of 9-11.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5...h&plindex=0

The blasts at the WTC were dampened by containment whereas the shaped charge was not an had a very sharp crack from unrestrained gases. Had there been steel core columns getting cut by such uses of explosives the number of times needed to make the disappear from 9-11 images and create free fall, the auditory character of what happened would be totally different. Not to mention steel shrapnel flying through space for a 1,000 feet or so, if such there was access to install such charges, which there was not.

So the quanitity and quality of dust is absolutely related to the concrete container, but more impressive to me are the actual effects of pulverization of the entire contents of the building by high speed concrete particualte and aggregates. This firefighter is stupified by what he did not find in the "collapse".

Some Observations from the Firefighters of Engine 7

and rightfully so. The magnitude of the deception and ruse seems unconsciously known in some significant way by those involved in the aftermath while trying to cope with the incongruity of what they were told that event was in comparison with their life experiences.

This post has been edited by Christophera: Feb 21 2009, 03:03 PM

[lunk]

Thanks Christophera,
for your steadfast enduring determination,
in getting your points across.
You are an inspiration.

...well for me, at least.

good work!

cheers, lunk

[Christophera]

Thanks Christophera,
for your steadfast enduring determination,
in getting your points across.
You are an inspiration.

...well for me, at least.

good work!

cheers, lunk

Thanks lunk! It is pretty enduring and it is good to see recognition of it. Here is another example I found a post today at democraticunderground I made, Sat Apr-02-05 07:41 PM.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...dress=125x36231

One sentence seems to resound,

Americans do not want the truth, however, they do need it.

Clearly from my position, 9-11 was used to justify war that was used to impoverish the nations economy, following the savings and loan rip off of the 1980's, W/BCCI, then ENRON, all enabled by deregulations that can be traced to the same political elements stonewalling 9-11.

Through the post 9-11 disinformation psyops, the disconected masses seeking truth were thwarted and the agenda continued. Now we face an economic disaster unparalleled because of our populations and their ignorance of their needs, source of food and methods of working together.

This post has been edited by Christophera: Feb 23 2009, 05:01 PM

[Christophera]

Perhaps the first paragraph needs some editing, dynamic concept, compound sentences:

This thread is the type of thread that should be auxiliary to every 9-11 forum, if, those discussing how to get 9-11 truth actually want it. Inversely, how much time should we spend debating useless information, and is the discussion of the exact uses of given information needed to gain more truth, one that that should be mandatory after evaluation of the information shows it to be valid before allowing it to continue to dominate forums?

Another way to underline the purpose and point of this thread is that we assume that because given piece of data is coherent enough to become information, that it actually has a practical, possible use that is near deployable, at that time, and let it dominate until another comes along.

Or, information is good, but too much at any time gets in the way of finding and using the information that does have a use. We've had way too much information for far too long that has had no real defined use of substance since the petition to spitzer.

If the simple step is taken early, to; "determine how much duty, according to law, do officials have to spend time, listen and act, regarding a given piece of information at a given time to citizens making demands?" a great deal of time can be saved and progress gained.

P4t seems to have the flight path and other issue's nailed down defining the unikelyhood of a plane at the pentagon. The destroyed FAA tapes of controller interviews is a major telltale regarding flight 77 and its supposed target.

It is good information and should be deployable, but I don't feel I've read where anyone had devised a way to get over the stonewall applied from high places rendering the high levels of law enforcement unreachable by citizens while their representatives are controlled by image fear.

The missing citgo tape and reports of its seizure are clear signs of a cover up. Bottom line is that people think with what they know and media is fully complicit in the image fear area at the very least. Safely we could say more I think. An entire line of thinking that Americans can and should be reasonably be doing is not being done, or at least given the notice that social leadership of media has a public trust to do as well as it can in representing issues of deep concern and FCC is there to make it accountable, in theory.

So, what is the most useful information at this time, and how do we use it?

This post has been edited by Christophera: Feb 24 2009, 03:45 AM

[lunk]

There is no complaints department.

9/11 was an obvious false flag.
But, there is no agency to complain to, about it.
The voting system is corrupted,
the elected representatives are mostly
in the pocket of corporate interests.
The media, most of it, is controlled.
We are brought up in a world where we are lead to believe
is ruled by experts,
...controlled too.

We are taught history from a one sided point of view, world wide.
Ridiculous rules and regulations are being set up everywhere,
for proven falsehoods,
...like, CO2 is a human caused global warming problem...

It all makes one almost want to give up, and give in.
...but that is what it is intended to do.

I guess the lucky-rabbit-foot-print,
in all of this is the fact,
that they are doing this.

Because there must be a chance, that we can,
individually and/or collectively,
completely stop this process.
And probably our compliance, must be necessary,
for them to fulfill,
their well documented,
(but obscured in trivia,)
agenda.

imo, lunk

[grizz]

Everybody should just keep on doing what they are doing. Each of us determines the right course for our individual efforts. That's the beauty of the Truth Movement. There is no organization, no hierarchy. Just a whole bunch of sincere individuals, often grouping for the common cause.

As far as infiltraitors and disinfo agents, f*ck them. Who cares what they think or do?

[Christophera]

There is no complaints department.

9/11 was an obvious false flag.
But, there is no agency to complain to, about it.
The voting system is corrupted,
the elected representatives are mostly
in the pocket of corporate interests.
The media, most of it, is controlled.

imo, lunk

And a nice warm happy social environment is far more important than the truth. Not that I think you believe that, but I know when the psyops of social fears, nonsense and ridicule has the upper hand over evidence and reason.

Lurkers need the truth, I post for them and always have. They are not invested, so can't be supporting secret methods of mass murder. But when the psyops agent comes along with no evidence and misrepresentations, they know it, and if the meaningful fact of the purpose of the secret being supported by the disinformation efforts is not countered with the WHY the disinformation is happening, the truth is not so easily known.

.com has destroyed free speech in America. God bless us.

This post has been edited by Christophera: Feb 25 2009, 04:53 PM

[Christophera]

Everybody should just keep on doing what they are doing. Each of us determines the right course for our individual efforts. That's the beauty of the Truth Movement. There is no organization, no hierarchy. Just a whole bunch of sincere individuals, often grouping for the common cause.

Welllllll, ........... like the "US government" did not plan and conduct 9-11, what really happened was infiltrators used US government illicitly, secretly, because the US government is forbidden by definition to do anythign like that. As soon as it acts in that direction, ............ it is no longer the US government.

Accordingly, when someone who presents themselves as, with or to the "Truth Movement", and they do not use evidnece and reason when looking for freasible explanations, they are not a part of the truth movement, they are a part of somthing else.

Idealistically yes, "grouping for a common cause". In reality a fertile ground for psycho sabotage of internet communities.

As far as infiltraitors and disinfo agents, f*ck them. Who cares what they think or do?

Going on 8 years after 9-11, we have to say that all of our problems today are due to the infiltrators and disinfo agents. They, not the perps are the first barrier and they are a barrier because near 8 years have passed and still, the movement on the quasi leadership appears to have no clue.

Detailed, feasible explanations are what is needed.

Explanations that expose official neglect and malfeasance or nonfeasance that can be taken back to demand, compulsory official inquiry is what is useful information.

[Christophera]

I'm under the impression that no one here knows of any information useful in gaining more truth, or perhaps there is no one who knows how information that might serve to gain more truth, ........... be used.

Does this seem a relevant subject in the quest for truth? Does it seem to have importance and priority?

[Christophera]

Oh because the "planes" were blue beam holograms that were CGI'd on the TV.

Riddle me this, how come not one POS no planer, has got off their lazy ass and went out to NYC and INDEPENDENTLY found their own witnesses to determine the what happened???

Yep, T'is a fact that the NPT movement sat in front of their computer and absorbed everything the NPT aspect of the disinformation psyops generated, believed it had to be true because video can be faked, ......... and was, which really convinced them.

Scary circularity there.

You people are kooks and are part of or are pawns in a disinformation operation, that allows scumbags to lump us in with your horseshit theory/disinfo and call us "no planers".

At least the thread title doesn't have the "plane" word in it.

My sentiments are fully with you, and painters as well. Particulary since the backwards impact/fall sequence would have to be choosen by the perps, ............... and that is something that totally works against the credibility of their operation. Since that factor exists and not one NPT'ist has been able to concieve of a rational and sensible reason for the perps to compromise their deception with such a sequence, BUT they all STILL continue to promote the nonsense, we can competently speculate that some of the most breathless, compulsively deluded NPT'ists are probably MKultra victims.

MKultra did happen in a VERY big way and we never found out WHY.

I can find no other explanation for some of the behaviors I've found.

Saturna does not seem to exhibit such compulsion and seems to be drawn along with the generalization of endlessly broad conspiracy that pervades in the vacuum left by the the quasi leadership that completely fails(ed) to use evidence and reason to develop credible explanations.

I had warned of investing in such vacuous leadership back in 2003 when I first made my site.

http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html

I saw the irrational rejections of an actual feasible explanation for all the profound and unique effects by the quasi leadership and realized that what was happening was "Support for the impossible to conceal the possible", or the unfounded proposition that the towers core was comprised of multiple steel core columns instead of concrete which can be well evidenced from 9-11; and fully realized that in the resulting environment, pure crap could become a standard of exchange in the movement. Lo and behold, today NPT dominates some 9-11 forums. Really makes you wonder who started those forums and why.

[Christophera]

If you're not making your enemy nervous you're doing something wrong. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Since I really don't do planes, ................ at all (there are brief exceptions) and do not feel that planes had anything to do with the most important events of the day, and that the perps would much rather have us talking about planes than those profound events, I have to ask if my recent stalker "stan" originally from Let's Roll in 2004 and the the govt loyalist site ad hominum award of my victory video produced by a member there, which has been removed from youtube since I wear it like a medal of honor, consitutes making your enemy nervous?

This post has been edited by Christophera: Mar 7 2009, 02:32 PM

[painter]

I saw the irrational rejections of an actual feasible explanation for all the profound and unique effects by the quasi leadership and realized that what was happening was "Support for the impossible to conceal the possible", or the unfounded proposition that the towers core was comprised of multiple steel core columns ...

The above statement coming from someone who has not successfully brought forward independently verifiable evidence for HIS hypothesis. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/blahblah1.gif) (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/nonono.gif) (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/thumbdown.gif)

You've just succeeded in getting this thread moved to Alt.

Pot, meet kettle.

[painter]

Since I really don't do planes, ................

Chris, you've been posting on this forum for some time now. Have you viewed the research done by P4T and CIT? All of it? Any of it? What makes you think you are over anyone's target with a hypothesis that, to date, has no independent verification?
(IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/whistle.gif) (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[Christophera]

The above statement coming from someone who has not successfully brought forward independently verifiable evidence for HIS hypothesis. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/blahblah1.gif) (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/nonono.gif) (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/thumbdown.gif)

You've just succeeded in getting this thread moved to Alt.

Pot, meet kettle.

But I did explain these things, and that, is a form of evidence.

free fall
total pulverization
superfine, heated particulate
smooth, square cut column ends x the 1,000's
heavy steel assemblies heaved hundreds of feet

and the evidence I have brought forward is independantly verifiable. AND, since the only authority of structure and architecture, who has NO EXPLANATION for events, refuses to even comment upon the evidence, are you not even a little bit suspicious?

Really, ........... guiliani takes the plans? NIST never has them for their "analysis". The only plans the movement has come from silverstein and they bear obvious signs of digital tampering. How much circumstance is needed before conspiracy of deception propagated within the truth movement is suspected?

Do you have an explanation for free fall? Do you have an explanation for total pulverization? Can you refer me to anyone that does have a feasible, detailed and reasonable explanation for those things.

My theory only depends on secrecy. We lost a president because he talked about secrecy about the same time the construction on the towers was started.

Is it fair to compare my information to NPT with "Pot, meet kettle" when NPT explains nothing and there is substancial raw evidence from 9-11 and other areas supporting that there was a concrete core?

Can you, and will you, ........ answer these questions?

This post has been edited by Christophera: Mar 7 2009, 06:19 PM

[Sanders]

...Really, ........... guiliani takes the plans? NIST never has them for their "analysis" ...

Which do not verify your case. You imply that these things are withheld because the construction of the core was different that what is commonly believed, but there's no reason to assume that, there may be other (obvious) reasons why they would try to keep blueprints out of public hands.

Do you have an explanation for free fall? Do you have an explanation for total pulverization? ...

Demolitions, if they are done halfway right, always proceed at near free fall speed, whether the vertical load of the building is born by steel columns or reinforced concrete. There are techniques for blowing up concrete, and there are techniques for cutting up steel beams. There was plenty of concrete present in the WTC without having to resort to a hypothesis of a reinforced concrete core, and Thermate, evidence for the use of which was found and confirmed by Steven Jones and evidenced by the presence of molten iron in the rubble of the WTC, is specifically good for cutting up structural steel.

My theory only depends on secrecy. We lost a president because he talked about secrecy about the same time the construction on the towers was started.

Because JFK talked about secrecy you infer that everything is a secret and rumors of steel core columns are part of a coverup? Are you LISTENING to yourself???

[lunk]

Airplanes could not have brought those towers down,
according to the architects, who said they were specifically
designed to withstand such impacts.

So, whether or not, there were planes,
is irrelevant, to the cause of the collapses.

The question remains,
if airplanes were not the cause of the collapses,
then why and how did those buildings collapse?

imo, lunk