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Personal Experiance, crash sites

vinnyg45
post Sep 19 2013, 04:50 AM
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Greetings: I am a new-bee; I have been monitoring the A&E 911 Truth website. But I have a personal issue with the crash in Pennsylvania Im also from PA. Im a 67 years young white male living in the belly of the beast [USA]. Im a skeptic and scrutinize every conspiracy theory but heres why I believe we have been lied too about 911.
In 1965, I was stationed at Loring AFB in Maine. In January of that year, a KC135 [Boeing 707] crashed about 2 miles north of the base. Overnight a bulldozer crew and plows created a path so that about 60 or 70 of us stationed at the base could survey the crash site. We walked the woods hip deep in snow looking for whatever went flying through the air after impact. Every 5th man had a walkie-talkie and a map so we could plot the debris. The hole where the aircraft hit was the length of a football field and at least the same with as a football pitch. Where the engines hit the earth, it looked like a sawmill run amuck. Wood chips were all over the place but the engine [4] although damaged from impact were in one piece not broken into individual scrap. There was immense damage and debris but the wreckage was clearly that of a Boeing 707, marked out plainly in the snow-covered landscape. And this craft was without passengers, only crew. Thats why I believe without a doubt that no passenger aircraft hit either the earth in Pennsylvania or the Pentagon building on 911. Read the reports; there was just enough scrap to fit into the back of a pickup truck in both crashes and no bodies. Also, can anyone out there, address how World Trade Center buildings #1, #2 & # 7 collapsed at free fall on the morning and afternoon of 911? Also, how almost 100 floors of reinforced [with rebar] concrete flooring can be pulverized by falling floor after floor as NIST claims without the use of explosives? And if the floor supports did fail why did the buildings steel core and outside steel frame fall? Id love to hear and explanation!

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diesel737
post Sep 19 2013, 12:28 PM
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Great story about your personal experience at a crash site. Yes, there are some big issues with the PA site. As a commercial pilot, I have reviewed most of the big airline type accidents over the last 20 years and I have never seen a hole full of nothing like that. Same can be said for the Pentagon site, too. The debris does not fit. Kind of like how Johnny Cochrane got OJ off for murder!!

As for what you said about the WTC structures, I agree about the walls, but how about the core pillars?? Something like 37 HUGE steel columns going right up the middle of those towers. Even if the walls came down with the floors, those center columns should still be there! But they're not, because they were cut!
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FirstUsedBooks
post Sep 19 2013, 12:50 PM
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Not sure about PA. Wasn't there a second debris field found in a lake a few miles away, suggesting that the plane came down in more than one piece? And I haven't seen anything to tell me that the concrete floors in the towers were re-barred. Logic tells me that re-bar wouldn't have worked with the corrugated steel pans and would have added a weight thought to be unnecessary. The concrete itself would have been a very light-weight aggregate, not the kind of concrete used in walls or road surfaces, and would have been quite friable, sufficient to account for the observed pulverization without requiring an explosive agency.
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Uklady1
post Sep 19 2013, 01:57 PM
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QUOTE (vinnyg45 @ Sep 19 2013, 08:50 AM) *
Greetings: I am a new-bee; I have been monitoring the A&E 911 Truth website. But I have a personal issue with the crash in Pennsylvania Im also from PA. Im a 67 years young white male living in the belly of the beast [USA]. Im a skeptic and scrutinize every conspiracy theory but heres why I believe we have been lied too about 911.
In 1965, I was stationed at Loring AFB in Maine. In January of that year, a KC135 [Boeing 707] crashed about 2 miles north of the base. Overnight a bulldozer crew and plows created a path so that about 60 or 70 of us stationed at the base could survey the crash site. We walked the woods hip deep in snow looking for whatever went flying through the air after impact. Every 5th man had a walkie-talkie and a map so we could plot the debris. The hole where the aircraft hit was the length of a football field and at least the same with as a football pitch. Where the engines hit the earth, it looked like a sawmill run amuck. Wood chips were all over the place but the engine [4] although damaged from impact were in one piece not broken into individual scrap. There was immense damage and debris but the wreckage was clearly that of a Boeing 707, marked out plainly in the snow-covered landscape. And this craft was without passengers, only crew. Thats why I believe without a doubt that no passenger aircraft hit either the earth in Pennsylvania or the Pentagon building on 911. Read the reports; there was just enough scrap to fit into the back of a pickup truck in both crashes and no bodies. Also, can anyone out there, address how World Trade Center buildings #1, #2 & # 7 collapsed at free fall on the morning and afternoon of 911? Also, how almost 100 floors of reinforced [with rebar] concrete flooring can be pulverized by falling floor after floor as NIST claims without the use of explosives? And if the floor supports did fail why did the buildings steel core and outside steel frame fall? Id love to hear and explanation!






Great post.

Over here in the uk I recall a plane crash not too far from where I live, the plane came down before the runway, and collided with the bank next to a main motorway. This was a smaller plane travelling here from Ireland.

Like your situation whilst there was much debris, the plane was intact, they located the fatalities and the survivors. Ok its a different scenario but yes, on the face of it the headline news doesn't fit with other similar situations. I dont now enough technically to make a more informed comment I'm just using logic.

I'm also just beginning to research this, and have more questions right now than comments !
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CharlesGWright
post Sep 19 2013, 04:33 PM
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RE: 93 in Shanksville/Lambertsville, PA

If you have not watched Domenick V. DiMaggo and Samuel Ettaro videos interviewing Viola Saylor, Wally Miller and Susan McElwain, then do so.
Several aircraft were seen that day.
Susan McElwain saw what can only be described as a drone or missile flying in a North direction. It flew over her when she was South of the 93 "so called crash spot", then later [after arriving home] saw a smoke plume from her house which at the time was East of the "so called crash spot".
Viola Saylor saw the large upside down plane, row of windows, flying South towards the "so called crash spot".
East of the "so called crash spot" at Indian Lake several eye witnesses saw a plane flying East away from the "so called crash spot".
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b4a_1378815834
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=019_1378302059
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b89_1378392429

Both, DiMaggo and Ettaro are from Western Pa.

Many years ago, my family would spend a whole week each summer at Camp Allegheny UMC Camp which is only 12,000 feet North East of the "so called crash spot".

Lt. Col. Donn R. de Grand-Pre, US ARMY Ret. 1926-2009 said:

"DGP:... These planes were being piloted by remote control, probably an AWACs aircraft taking over that airplane or airplanes or drones, unmanned drones. And flying them at 5 and 8 G-force that no pilot could withstand. So, in short, and if you read books 2 and 3, you will discover how and why this came about."

DGP: Okay, Alex, the group of pilots and they will remain anonymous were a wonderful mix of commercial, military and civilian pilots. At any rate, after three days, the decisions were unanimous. And I wrote my 24-page report up and submitted it to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. And that report ultimately got into the hands of the Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs on 23 January, 2002. The General was U.S. Marine Corp General by the name Peter Pace. And I got a telephone call, 5 March, from one of his horse holders, who is a Colonel Air Force type. He informed me that Gen. Peter Pace had gotten the twenty-four pages and that he and his Sec. had no comment at this time but he used the old Marine Corp lingo, "Semper Fi" or Always Faithful, and we let it go at that. Later on I continued my correspondence with the Vice Chairman and most recently, I got a letter 8 November, 2003 from Peter Pace, to me, carrying on not only about the investigation but about the three books that I have written since that time.
Alex Jones Radio Show, Feb. 25, 2004,1:40-hour interview
http://www.prisonplanet.com/022904degrand.html

---
In earlier interviews, de Grand-Pre has recounted that the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Gen. Richard Myers, had 500 copies of the 24-page report made and sent out, including, to the White House.
By John Kaminski, skylax@comcast.net, JohnKaminski.com, 2-28-4
http://piratenews.org/ua93p2.html
----------------

I am trying to locate one or more of the pilots who were in that meeting with Grand-Pre[/i][/u], and would like to get a copy of that 24 page report.

I was a crew member of a Lockheed P3-C Orion, USN VP-50 Squadron Anti-Submarine Warefare, stationed at Moffatt Field NAS, 1969-73. We kept track of the Russian nuclear Yankee subs, usually 800 feet down in the Mendacino Trench 1200 miles west of San Francisco. We went all over the Pacific.[65 now][my 3 sons were smarter than me, and went into the USAF] rolleyes.gif

It is amazing that the PNAC NEOCONS used Al Qaeda for the Mass Ritual 911 False Flag so they could gain access to the oil in the Middle East.

Have you seen the recent Barbara Honegger 3 hour youtube video talk at Seattle Wash about what she thinks really took place on 911 at the Pentagon. No commercial plane there, that is for sure. But probably a drone, helicopter, and a whole lot of explosives from inside of the building.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fvJ8nFa5Qk

Re: WTC 1, 2, 7
Something turned the steel, concrete into dust.
Thermite, Thermate, DEW, whatever.
They blew up. ohmy.gif ohmy.gif
They, WTC 1&2, certainly did not collapse.
WTC 7 looked liked classic demolition.
Jet fuel did not do that.

I just got a new book in the mail today:
THE MOST DANGEROUS BOOK IN THE WORLD by S.K. Bain
The back reads: "he shared offices with the PNAC folks"
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vinnyg45
post Sep 19 2013, 06:22 PM
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QUOTE (FirstUsedBooks @ Sep 19 2013, 11:50 AM) *
Not sure about PA. Wasn't there a second debris field found in a lake a few miles away, suggesting that the plane came down in more than one piece? And I haven't seen anything to tell me that the concrete floors in the towers were re-barred. Logic tells me that re-bar wouldn't have worked with the corrugated steel pans and would have added a weight thought to be unnecessary. The concrete itself would have been a very light-weight aggregate, not the kind of concrete used in walls or road surfaces, and would have been quite friable, sufficient to account for the observed pulverization without requiring an explosive agency.

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vinnyg45
post Sep 19 2013, 06:26 PM
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QUOTE (FirstUsedBooks @ Sep 19 2013, 11:50 AM) *
Not sure about PA. Wasn't there a second debris field found in a lake a few miles away, suggesting that the plane came down in more than one piece? And I haven't seen anything to tell me that the concrete floors in the towers were re-barred. Logic tells me that re-bar wouldn't have worked with the corrugated steel pans and would have added a weight thought to be unnecessary. The concrete itself would have been a very light-weight aggregate, not the kind of concrete used in walls or road surfaces, and would have been quite friable, sufficient to account for the observed pulverization without requiring an explosive agency.



I stand corrected; re-bar was not used in the floor construction of WTC 1 &2, but 4 inches of concrete on fluted steel plate and steel trusses. [Overall, approximately 2 feet thick] According to NIST the hangers supporting the floors failed due to excessive heating and that, the floors collapsed one after the other by shear weight and momentum. In that case that would leave a stack of close to 100 floors of steel plating with office furniture and filing cabinets stacked one on top of the other. At the end of the event one would have a stack of floors over 100 feet in height, with the steel outer frame and inner steel core still standing. Yes the cement may have cracked and crumbled but not pulverized. And how does one explain the molten steel in the basements of the WT Center buildings?
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paranoia
post Sep 19 2013, 11:06 PM
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QUOTE (CharlesGWright @ Sep 19 2013, 03:33 PM) *
Have you seen the recent Barbara Honegger 3 hour youtube video talk at Seattle Wash about what she thinks really took place on 911 at the Pentagon. No commercial plane there, that is for sure. But probably a drone, helicopter, and a whole lot of explosives from inside of the building.


please see:
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=22392
http://www.citizeninvestigationteam.com/evidence.html

thumbsup.gif
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Uklady1
post Sep 21 2013, 03:11 PM
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QUOTE (paranoia @ Sep 20 2013, 03:06 AM) *



I've now watched that presentation, awesome. SO I have some questions and observations;

1- has anyone considered that mysterious death of princess Diana who was dating a Muslim cardiollogist? If there was already a plan to go to war with Arab nations that relationship would have been very inconvenient.


2- I don't know the answer to this, remember i live many miles away, but surely if planes had bought thr wtc down, was there no attempt to investigate the architect and builders? If i read things correctly everyone was told to buy the official story, period.


3- I visited Washington in 2004'and when there went on a city tour, we drove past the pentagon with precious little desire to discuss the rebuild, it was almost like it was an embarrassment and they didn't want to talk about it, just and observation.


Any comments ?
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23investigator
post Sep 22 2013, 06:27 AM
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QUOTE (Uklady1 @ Sep 22 2013, 04:41 AM) *
I've now watched that presentation, awesome. SO I have some questions and observations;

1- has anyone considered that mysterious death of princess Diana who was dating a Muslim cardiollogist? If there was already a plan to go to war with Arab nations that relationship would have been very inconvenient.



Any comments ?


Dear "Uklady"

From your comments it certainly appears you are a lady.
You would understand this is not in a derogatory sense.
Women do have their own way of looking at things.
There is much for you to catch up on, but your perception in regard to Princess Diana is very interesting, more than that, quite likely on the money.

Robert S
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Uklady1
post Sep 22 2013, 01:31 PM
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QUOTE (23investigator @ Sep 22 2013, 10:27 AM) *
Dear "Uklady"

From your comments it certainly appears you are a lady.
You would understand this is not in a derogatory sense.
Women do have their own way of looking at things.
There is much for you to catch up on, but your perception in regard to Princess Diana is very interesting, more than that, quite likely on the money.

Robert S


Thanks Robert made me laugh ! Yeah I am new to this and yes women do follow a different trail of thought, I take it that these questions have been posed and explored before? The Diana comment was just that rumours of a hit job have been brushed under many carpets over here, but if it was part of a bigger plan it would make more sense actually, there wasn't a strong enough reason otherwise.

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signalfire
post Sep 26 2013, 01:37 AM
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I haven't spent much time on Shanksville, but I *did* spent over 1000 hours on the towers and how they could possibly have fallen. I obsessed about it in my spare time for years, from the very first day. Early on, I had a professional photographer friend of mine make a blowup of a very high resolution photo of the WTC pile from overhead. It was big enough to cover a queen size bed. I poured over that photo, thinking I would see something no one else had. Finally after hours and hours, I realized it wasn't what I was seeing, but what I wasn't seeing. No desks, no computers, no room dividers, no toilets, no phones, chairs, vending machines; all of which were in both towers to the tune of 10s of thousands. Just that ubiquitous dust and the biggest girders and debris, and not nearly enough of that.

Look at the towers in mid collapse. The outside aluminum cladding and massive steel beams are being thrown out laterally hundreds of feet. Many of them can be seen to be trailing 'dust'... The cement floors and office contents and people are being turned into that massive dust cloud, as the residual moisture in the concrete boils instantaneously and explodes. The inner core, those incredibly massive steel beams, are that black cloud you see rising slowly in the center, different in color from the previous smoke from the fires. It's a mushroom cloud, just not the kind we've been trained to recognize, but then no one has seen this kind of attack before. Those beams trailing 'dust' are still molecularly disintegrating, actually boiling as they fall.

Only one known weapon has the capacity to do this. Only one known weapon has the ability to generate intense, steel melting heat despite being drenched with millions of gallons of water for months.


See, to finally solve this problem, you actually need to answer every anomaly. The thermite theory doesn't even come close; it's not that explosive and it's already been determined, to 'dissolve' that much steel would have taken nearly the same weight of thermite as steel, an impossibility. The towers would have looked like a giant magnesium torch if more than a little thermite was used, but the flash of a nuke could be hidden inside the dust cloud, in the core. Obviously gravity didn't do the job with the slight addition of some heat when the entire building was a heat sink; and as noted above, any NIST fire/impact version of events would have to result in a pancake effect and would probably have left the inner core standing.

See the remarkable work of Jeff Prager, 'the anonymous physicist' and Ed Ward MD for a complete discussion of the truth of what really happened; including a discussion of the way fission produces secondary and tertiary elements, found in the WTC dust just as the time span would expect. Do the research on tactical nuclear weapons, now small enough to fit in your secretary's lunch bag or a potted plant. No need to wire the buildings, folks. The reason the secondary and tertiary elements found in the dust weren't at first recognized for what they were is because chemists and air pollution specialists were looking at them, not nuclear physicists who recognized what it meant immediately.

Look at the photos of the 'horseshoe beam' and the 'meteorite', "preserved for future generations" in case someone sometime actually gets a clue. That horseshoe shaped beam turned into taffy in less than the time it took for the towers to fall; under 10 seconds. That takes high powered radiation, far more than a blast furnace could offer. How about millions of degrees for a millionth of a second? As to the meteorite, what level of heat does it take to melt concrete?

New York City was nuked and don't think they won't do it again if it serves their purpose. And it sure as hell wasn't 19 hijackers and a guy with kidney disease. But it's so useful to have boogie men and someone 'other' to hate. The NWO is jerking us around by our nose rings like good little patriotic sheep. Anything to drum up the revenge emotions and negate rational thought.
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23investigator
post Sep 26 2013, 08:34 AM
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QUOTE (signalfire @ Sep 26 2013, 03:07 PM) *
I haven't spent much time on Shanksville, but I *did* spent over 1000 hours on the towers and how they could possibly have fallen. I obsessed about it in my spare time for years, from the very first day. Early on, I had a professional photographer friend of mine make a blowup of a very high resolution photo of the WTC pile from overhead. It was big enough to cover a queen size bed. I poured over that photo, thinking I would see something no one else had. Finally after hours and hours, I realized it wasn't what I was seeing, but what I wasn't seeing. No desks, no computers, no room dividers, no toilets, no phones, chairs, vending machines; all of which were in both towers to the tune of 10s of thousands. Just that ubiquitous dust and the biggest girders and debris, and not nearly enough of that.

Look at the towers in mid collapse. The outside aluminum cladding and massive steel beams are being thrown out laterally hundreds of feet. Many of them can be seen to be trailing 'dust'... The cement floors and office contents and people are being turned into that massive dust cloud, as the residual moisture in the concrete boils instantaneously and explodes. The inner core, those incredibly massive steel beams, are that black cloud you see rising slowly in the center, different in color from the previous smoke from the fires. It's a mushroom cloud, just not the kind we've been trained to recognize, but then no one has seen this kind of attack before. Those beams trailing 'dust' are still molecularly disintegrating, actually boiling as they fall.

Only one known weapon has the capacity to do this. Only one known weapon has the ability to generate intense, steel melting heat despite being drenched with millions of gallons of water for months.


Dear 'signalfire'

There are literally millions of people who have been involved in (conventional) heat conversion of materials of all the various elements
and their various chemical combinations.

There are very few who have been involved in nuclear thermal nuclear conversion.

Most it is suspected who have been involved in the former, must have realised the immence amount of energy required to bring about
the sudden violent conversion of those towers.

You have most eloquently set out your description and stating argument, let's hope that does not turn out to be a "fizzer".

The point you subtly raised about the building particularly the cores and connecting girders being a massive heat sink should not go ignored.

As an illustration just look at what had to be used to just cut one of the core columns that were being removed from the ground site, just a little above an officer fire temperature don't you think, the gas and oxygen manufacturers of the world would never have come about if that is all that was required to cut and bend massive sections of steel, for two reasons,
one ,temperatures required could never be achieved,
two the rate or quantity of heat would disperse through the sections of the steel before a melt temperature could be achieved.

Please keep up your good work, engage others into this forum,who can explain these things with authority and superior knowledge.

Thanks again

Robert S




See, to finally solve this problem, you actually need to answer every anomaly. The thermite theory doesn't even come close; it's not that explosive and it's already been determined, to 'dissolve' that much steel would have taken nearly the same weight of thermite as steel, an impossibility. The towers would have looked like a giant magnesium torch if more than a little thermite was used, but the flash of a nuke could be hidden inside the dust cloud, in the core. Obviously gravity didn't do the job with the slight addition of some heat when the entire building was a heat sink; and as noted above, any NIST fire/impact version of events would have to result in a pancake effect and would probably have left the inner core standing.

See the remarkable work of Jeff Prager, 'the anonymous physicist' and Ed Ward MD for a complete discussion of the truth of what really happened; including a discussion of the way fission produces secondary and tertiary elements, found in the WTC dust just as the time span would expect. Do the research on tactical nuclear weapons, now small enough to fit in your secretary's lunch bag or a potted plant. No need to wire the buildings, folks. The reason the secondary and tertiary elements found in the dust weren't at first recognized for what they were is because chemists and air pollution specialists were looking at them, not nuclear physicists who recognized what it meant immediately.

Look at the photos of the 'horseshoe beam' and the 'meteorite', "preserved for future generations" in case someone sometime actually gets a clue. That horseshoe shaped beam turned into taffy in less than the time it took for the towers to fall; under 10 seconds. That takes high powered radiation, far more than a blast furnace could offer. How about millions of degrees for a millionth of a second? As to the meteorite, what level of heat does it take to melt concrete?

New York City was nuked and don't think they won't do it again if it serves their purpose. And it sure as hell wasn't 19 hijackers and a guy with kidney disease. But it's so useful to have boogie men and someone 'other' to hate. The NWO is jerking us around by our nose rings like good little patriotic sheep. Anything to drum up the revenge emotions and negate rational thought.


This post has been edited by 23investigator: Sep 26 2013, 08:46 AM
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amazed!
post Sep 28 2013, 10:36 AM
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Signalfire

Welcome to the forum. I just finished Prager's work last week, and thoroughly enjoyed it.

Finally, after all these years, so many questions are answered and anomalies explained. The nuke theory is so simple that in my mind it is the essential application of Occam's Razor to just what actually happened there that day.

The epidemiology is the icing on the cake.
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amazed!
post Sep 28 2013, 10:42 AM
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QUOTE (vinnyg45 @ Sep 19 2013, 04:50 AM) *
Greetings: I am a new-bee; I have been monitoring the A&E 911 Truth website. But I have a personal issue with the crash in Pennsylvania Im also from PA. Im a 67 years young white male living in the belly of the beast [USA]. Im a skeptic and scrutinize every conspiracy theory but heres why I believe we have been lied too about 911.
In 1965, I was stationed at Loring AFB in Maine. In January of that year, a KC135 [Boeing 707] crashed about 2 miles north of the base. Overnight a bulldozer crew and plows created a path so that about 60 or 70 of us stationed at the base could survey the crash site. We walked the woods hip deep in snow looking for whatever went flying through the air after impact. Every 5th man had a walkie-talkie and a map so we could plot the debris. The hole where the aircraft hit was the length of a football field and at least the same with as a football pitch. Where the engines hit the earth, it looked like a sawmill run amuck. Wood chips were all over the place but the engine [4] although damaged from impact were in one piece not broken into individual scrap. There was immense damage and debris but the wreckage was clearly that of a Boeing 707, marked out plainly in the snow-covered landscape. And this craft was without passengers, only crew. Thats why I believe without a doubt that no passenger aircraft hit either the earth in Pennsylvania or the Pentagon building on 911. Read the reports; there was just enough scrap to fit into the back of a pickup truck in both crashes and no bodies. Also, can anyone out there, address how World Trade Center buildings #1, #2 & # 7 collapsed at free fall on the morning and afternoon of 911? Also, how almost 100 floors of reinforced [with rebar] concrete flooring can be pulverized by falling floor after floor as NIST claims without the use of explosives? And if the floor supports did fail why did the buildings steel core and outside steel frame fall? Id love to hear and explanation!


Great post, and I agree completely with your conclusions regarding Shanksville.

Christopher Bollyn, who used to post here from time to time, has written a book, Solving 911. Another book with the same title is a collection of his "original articles", a collection of the many articles he has written on this subject since the very beginning.

In the Fall of 2011 he interviewed Wally Miller, the county coroner, regarding a small scandal that came up about the Dover AFB Mortuary. In the course of the interview, the subject of 911 was brought up, and Miller finally comes clean on just what happened that day. There was no Boeing there. It was a complete fabrication.
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