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Plane Crash In New York State, 9/11 victim's wife aboard.

Graeme
post May 14 2009, 07:23 PM
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I see that NTSB are publishing on 3407 already, I hadn't expected this so early.

Can someone explain from:— http://www.ntsb.gov/Dockets/Aviation/DCA09MA027/418693.pdf, what the terms VOR, ACARS & ARINC translate to, as per page 30.

I just got ignited on this story again, after reading the following, published on the 14th May:
"I read the transcript of the flight and it seems like the ‘Stick Pusher’ Mechanism kicked in and destroyed the plane without any warning or reason. This was not an accident. Also, did anyone here notice that the AVSIM website was destroyed by hackers. Some members of the FLIGHTSIM community were very interested in how this plane crashed and maybe that’s why the website was attacked ..." on another important, globally renowned news comments page. It's true, that website is down, entirely at this time

From: http://www.ntsb.gov/Dockets/Aviation/DCA09MA027/418693.pdf Page 58.

22:12:05.0
HOT-2
I've never seen icing conditions. I've never deiced. I've never seen any—
I've never experienced any of that. I don't want to have to experience that
and make those kinds of calls. you know I'dve freaked out. I'dve have like
seen this much ice and thought oh my gosh we were going to crash.

22:16:37.1
HOT-2
I put the flaps
22:16:40.2
CAM
[sound of two
22:16:42.2
HOT-1
[sound of grunt]
22:16:45.8
HOT-2
should the gear
22:16:46.8
HOT-1
gear up oh #.
22:16:50.1
CAM
[increase in ambient
22:16:51.9
HOT-1
we're down.
22:16:51.9
CAM
[sound of thump]
22:16:52.0
HOT-2
we're [sound of scream]
22:16:53.9
END OF TRANSCRIPT
END OF RECORDING

This is the nightmare recurring isn't it. This one isn't going away. Plus I have a load on the Swine Flu pandemic, see the appropriate post for that.
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Graeme
post May 14 2009, 08:30 PM
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Please analyse and reply with your informed knowledge as to the mechanism by which turbo-fan blades bend in the opposite sense to engine rotation, when under normal conditions:
http://www.ntsb.gov/Dockets/Aviation/DCA09MA027/417219.pdf

1) PP15.
"Most, but not all of the blades were bent in the direction opposite rotation, while a few appeared to be fairly straight (PHOTO 29).
Four (4) blades exhibited large portions of their airfoil missing with one (1) blade fractured near the root. Mud
was observed up to the stage 1 LPC vanes."


2) pp9.
"All the stage 1 LPC stator vanes were present and intact, with some exhibiting LE tears, LE
airfoils bent in both the direction of rotation and in the direction opposite rotation, and some trailing edge (TE) impact damage and material loss near the outer shroud (PHOTO 8). Looking through the stage 1 LPC stator
vanes, the stage 2 LPC blades were visible. All the stage 2 LPC blades were present; most blade tips were
curled in the direction opposite rotation, and some exhibited material loss. Dirt and mud was visible up to the
stage 2 LPC blades (PHOTO 9)."

Gram.
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albertchampion
post May 14 2009, 08:30 PM
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you are correct about one aspect of this: the alacrity of the ntsb to produce "findings". you can contrast this to other accidents where months elapsed before "findings" were released.

and of course, you can contrast it to the commercial aircraft collisions with terrain that occurred on 11/09/01. accidents that the ntsb decided to ignore. somehow determined that those collisions with terrain were undeserving of any investigation. as i have written previously, the only other one i know of that was as shunned by the ntsb was the jfkjr collision with terrain[or should that be water?].

it is entirely possible that it was a case of actual pilot[s] error. if the cvr is accurate, when i read the cavalier manner that the flight crew dealt with "icing", i have to think that they were suicidal. i just cannot imagine any pilots being in those atmospheric conditions and dealing with them as the cvr that was released reveals.

but that is just my opinion.

the most interesting aspect of this "accident" is how NATIONAL PROPAGANDA RADIO dealt with it. it jumped on the "fatigue" factor that envelops the flight crews of these "puddle jumpers". if accurate, there is something wrong with an airline structure that allows for flight crews to fly in from way far away, then to command a "greyhound of the air".

i don't think that even greyhound would allow a bus driver to drive for 5+ hours to get to a bus driving assignment. but i could be wrong about this.

in my opinion, irrespective of this "accident", we have a very "broken" commercial air transport system. which no one wants to mend because it will cost money.

my response to that pov is that there comes a time when the real costs of society/civilization must be borne. at some stage, everyone is going to have to become more impoverished if they want to continue to live in a country where the infrastructure functions.

and there is a corollary to this precept, you can get the infrastructure improvements without becoming impoverished.

but the nation must decide to abandon its homicidal imperialism. must dismantle the military industrial armature that is bankrupting the usa. must withdraw from all our overseas military entanglements.

and dismantle the federal reserve.

do that, and the usa could become the beacon on the hill once again. but at the moment, this country has been driven to be the dungeon beneath the sewer
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DoYouEverWonder
post May 14 2009, 08:44 PM
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QUOTE (albertchampion @ May 14 2009, 09:30 PM) *
you are correct about one aspect of this: the alacrity of the ntsb to produce "findings". you can contrast this to other accidents where months elapsed before "findings" were released.


I thought it was odd/unusual how willing and how fast they released the cockpit recordings. Yet, we're still not allowed to hear any of the recordings from 9/11.
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rob balsamo
post Jul 29 2009, 12:48 AM
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Unfortunately i missed this when it was published by the NTSB back in May (was super busy with the move.. etc).

Anyway. .here is the animation as paranoia linked on the previous page... this one has ATC transmissions as well....



Anyone can play Monday Morning QB and many have.. but now that the animation is out.... A few notes -

In the 328, we were taught to "fly out of the stall". Meaning, when you get the shaker.. (and i still remember the callouts... kinda)

Max Thrust - Flaps 20
Pos Rate - Gear up
(hold level as airspeed increases)
Ref - Flaps 12
Ref +20 - Flaps up
Go Around Checklist

Im not sure how the Q400 crews are trained, but the 328 has A LOT of power to "fly out of a stall" even on one engine. I doubt the Q400 has such power. So i would expect they would allow a 200 foot loss for recovery in training... (we were only allowed a 50 foot loss during sim training).

According to the animation, the Pilot Flying never "broke" the stall. It looks like they were trained to "fly out of it" instead of "breaking" the stall (pushing the nose down to 'break' the stall). Instead, they gained 200 feet by pulling back too much, further aggravating the condition they were in, combined with cross control rudder/aileron input which caused a spin to the right.

The FO seemed like she noticed the airspeed was really low and said "uhhhh" when asked for flaps 15 which initiated and aggravated the stall. FO should have called "airspeed" before putting in the flaps.

If the animation is accurate... its the typical domino effect you see in many accidents... looks like crew error.

Sad...
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rob balsamo
post Jul 29 2009, 01:13 AM
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Colgan Landing Stall Profile

http://www.ntsb.gov/dockets/aviation/dca09ma027/417477.pdf
(page 4)
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paranoia
post Feb 7 2010, 11:34 PM
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just wanted to add this overlooked coincedence/irony:

QUOTE
(6:00 a.m.) September 11, 2001: Two Hijackers Fly to Boston

Mohamed Atta and Abdulaziz Alomari’s flight from Portland to Boston takes off. [Federal Bureau of Investigation, 10/4/2001] Their plane, Colgan Air Flight 5930, is a 19-seat Beechcraft 1900. [Federal Bureau of Investigation, 2001; 9/11 Commission, 8/26/2004, pp. 3 Fellow passengers Vincent Meisner and Roger Quirion will later say Atta and Alomari board separately, keep quiet, and do not draw attention to themselves. [Chicago Sun-Times, 9/16/2001; Washington Post, 9/16/2001] Quirion, says: “They struck me as business travelers. They were sitting down, talking, seems like they were going over some paperwork.” [CBS News, 10/12/2001]

source



see also:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/14094277/T7-B17-...Entire-Contents
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starviego
post Apr 8 2010, 12:11 AM
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If you read the reports of the witnesses on the ground, it appears that engine problems could have doomed this plane--


NTSB Dockets, File 431227--witness statements

pg2 of 131
Vicki Braun
plane engine had ''echo sound'' then sounded like the engine stopped then heard a ''boom''

pg2 of 131
Hank Cole
plane didn't sound right, engine sounded like it was ''revving'' then cut out and then he heard a bang.

pg 4 of 131 Maha Abdallah
Before the plane impacted the ground, Abdallah noticed sparks coming from the plane.

pg6 of 131
Shannon Alessandra
Just prior to the airplane crashing, the engines made a ''weird sound.''

pg7 of 131
Jean Andreassen
Andreassen stated that she heard strange noises from the engines

pg8 of 131
Kristen and Aaron Archambeault
They both described the engine noise as ''sputtering''

pg9 of 131
Stanley Barnas
...he saw a bright orange flash out of the living room window. ... After the flash they heard a loud crash. Barnas is 100percent certain the saw the bright orange flash before the crash.

pg11 of 131
Michele Beiter
Michele stated the noise, 'skipped' and and she was releived it stopped, and then it started again. Michel is positive there was a skip. Michele further described everthing she heard as, 'Noise, skip, noise, loud noise.'

pg13 of 131
Robert Bijak
The engines sounded like a metallic rattle and remined Bijak of a car engine with no oil in it.

pg14 of 131
Tin Bojarski
The plane did not sound right and sort of sounded like a car with a broken muffler.

pg17 of 131
Ronald Braunscheidel
...he heard a very loud spitting and sputtering sound of a plane engine flying overhead. Braunscheidel described the noise as a car without a muffler.

pg 18 of 131
Sharon Brennan
Brennan believed the plane was... maybe in trouble based on the noise.

pg22 of 131
Patricia Burns
Burns was able to see most of the left side of the airplane and noticed flames coming from the rear of the aircraft.

pg28 of 131
Dan Cizdziel
...heard a sputtering, binging noise to the north....

pg42 of 131
Doug Errick
Errick indicated that as the plane got closer the engines became very rough. Errick thought the engines were coming on and off, almost like engines were trying to come back on, but couldn't remain running. Errick thought the engines were changing RPMs rapidly.

pg49 of 131
Mary Grefrath
Grefrath recalled that the engine sounded like it was spuddering.

pg66 of 131
Jean Larocque
Larocque... stated he heard puttering plane... Larocque reported that the engines were not making a uniform sound.

pg 77 of 131
Molly Merlo
...she heard the airplane make a ''gurgling'' sound.

pg81 of 131
Marianne Neri
The engine noise did not sound like a normal plane, but more like a helicopter. It was obvious something was wrong with the engines.

pg85 of 131
Angela Pillo
The sound was very loud and ''rough,'' as if the engine was having trouble. The sound was further described as sounding like a ''lawn mower''

pg91 of 131
Lisa Rott
....she heard a consistent low grumbling sound that she believed to be a propeller plane. Rott advised that the sound the plane's engines was not smooth and did not sound like other propeller planes that she has heard in the past.

pg96 of 131
Kenneth Smith
...heard a big bag then continued to hear the sound of airplane engines.

pg89 of 131
Joseph Summers
...heard a plane which was very low and didn't sound normal. Mr. Summers cited a ''rambling noise'' which sounded as if an engine was not running properly.

pg101 of 131
Rick Telfair
Telfair stated he then heard a winding or grinding noise, then a screeching or grinding noise and approximately 20-30 seconds later heard a large boom... Telfair further described the noise of the engine as fighting, almost as though they were trying to go faster but couldn't, not accelerating but distressed.

pg 102 of 131
Denise Trabucco
Trabucco described the sound as a humming, similar to a transformer prior to it blowing. Aafter the humming, Trabucco heard a popping sound. ... About a minute after the humming and popping sound, Trabucco and her family felt a vibration that felt a little like an earthquake.

pg105 of 131
Lorraine Unverzart
The airplane engines made a ''chugging'' sound, similar to a ''spark plug misfiring.''

pg106 of 131
Louis Vitello
...he heard the plane engines sputtering as it approached, and then heard a ''poppomg sound.'' Immediately after that Mr. Vitello heard ''grinding'' noised, stating that the noises reminded him of gears grinding together, sounding like the gears were missing teeth.

pg124 of 131
David Wolf
...the engines were making an unusual ''shuttering'' sound

pg126 of 131
Melissa Wols
She stated she heard the plane.... grinding and sputtering as it approached and passed over his residence. Wols advised it sounded similar to what grinding metal would sound like.

pg129 of 131
Rita Zirnheld
It ''sounded like sputtering'' and ''engine was coughing.''

pg130 of 131
Barbara Garret
She said the plane engine was making loud noises, as though metal was banging and clattering.

------------


This theory is backed by some of the initial reports of the incident:


http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2009/02/investigators_gathe r_wreckage.html
''....initial reports said the plane was held up due to mechanical problems''
(explaining why the plane took off two hours late from Newark)

http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/577959.html
(Erie County Executive Chris)Collins said that .... crew members had reported mechanical problems as they approached Buffalo Niagara International Airport.



I have been posting this on other pilot-oriented forums but have got nothing but grief for it. Though I don't think the witness statements can so easily be ignored.


/
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Graeme
post Jul 28 2010, 04:36 PM
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QUOTE (starviego @ Apr 8 2010, 06:11 AM) *
If you read the reports of the witnesses on the ground, it appears that engine problems could have doomed this plane--


NTSB Dockets, File 431227--witness statements


I have been posting this on other pilot-oriented forums but have got nothing but grief for it. Though I don't think the witness statements can so easily be ignored.


I find that stuff very interesting and have heard other similar web-based reports. The official Investigation still dwells on Pilot-Under training and the whole very valid and massively important issue of Airlines De-regulation in the 'US'. This accident has become an absolute benchmark, forcing the airline industry to re-evaluate everything it does. — " ... the term watershed accident comes out frequently regarding this incident".
— Bill Voss President Flight Safety Foundation

However, I don't buy this official explanation as anything more than convenient. I did the math, roughly. The chance of an epoused pair (Eckert and Husband) dying in air-related accidents, directly and indirectly are pushing 1 in a Trillion, that's working from the late 1990's Risk Assessment Figures for civilian airline flying, that I heard of being in the order of 1 in a Million chance of dying in an air accident.

But watch Here, ONLINE the full 2010 PBS Documentary entitled: "FLYING CHEAP"
- http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/flyingcheap/view/
'The harrowing tale of Colgan 3407'.

I just did, and my own review is:
It's actually quite damning of endemic back-scratching, lack of training, a dearth of inexperience and quick promotions within the regional de-regulated airlines and cites the nepotism and protective attitude of the FAA towards the major carriers in their 'hands-off' relationship with their lesser regional partners. Until COLGAN 3407 that is.

Now they're in a world of pain. So, let's keep reminding them, that we're all watching
....


This post has been edited by Graeme: Jul 28 2010, 05:39 PM
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truthmatters
post Jul 29 2010, 09:18 PM
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I watched the video of the animation. At first I was able to hear the crew's voices responding. When the trouble began all I saw were their alleged words printed on the screen but no sound from them. How come? How do we know that is what they said? Why was there suddenly no audio for the crew when they supposedly were talking?
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Graeme
post Aug 1 2010, 11:40 AM
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ATC Audio provided by www.liveatc.net. Transcript provided by http://pilotsfor911truth.org. Edited for pauses and irrelevant air traffic.

Let's listen this early Tube posted by Pilots for 9/11-Truth on the day (Friday 13th, 2009), again ...

QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Feb 14 2009, 03:56 AM) *
Colgan 3407 Air Traffic Control Audio and Transcript

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=16320&view=findpost&p=10764620

ATC Audio provided by www.liveatc.net. Transcript provided by http://pilotsfor911truth.org. Edited for pauses and irrelevant air traffic.


Remember this is just the ATC to all aircraft in the area of approach, right? Excuse the lack of terminology. ATC, (after it is established Colgan 3407 has fallen out of the skies) , ask other approach aircraft what their current experience of ice is, and whether they are having any erratic variation on the data from the ILS (Instrument Landing System).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_landing_system

The Cockpit Voice Recorder rescued from the Buffalo Crash site revealed the in-cockpit communications. "We're Down" were the last words, if I remember correctly, and which pretty much sum their experience up. But yes, the Squark transponder and all electronic communications Ground-to-Air / Air-to-Ground for Colgan 3407 seem to have been immediately interrupted and ...

Reports by civilian witnesses from the ground repeatedly mention Engine sounds being erratic 'sputtering' off and on ...
This could refer to all four engines. I'm no air-mechanic, but I presume that in these modern electronic controlled planes total onboard electronics failure would account for these factors:

1) No comms Ground-to-Air / Air-to-Ground.
2) No squark signal on the ATC screens. ('Just dropped off the radar')
2) Global Engine Failure. (all four props)

So, where does the Rime Ice excuse play in this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_rime

The Other Pilots on approach to Buffalo are clearly heard in this tube saying that they've had small build-ups of ice for the last 5 thru 20 miles and the last account says it's peeling off the windscreen, hence not causing difficulty for or affecting anyone else currently on approach to Buffalo. They all seem to be coping.
And that's precisely when we have to pull out the magic 'rabbit in the hat' explanation of pilot incompetance.

If it wasn't for the very convenient out-clause of these allegedly incompetant pilots being unable to cope with a little Rime Ice build-up, then the NTSB may have been forced to investigate this Watershed Aircrash more intently, looking at reasons for the total outages I noted above.

But was there a total electronics outage onboard Colgan 3407? That's the remaining question which I've NEVER seen addressed by anyone. Was that data registered in the FDR (Flight Data Recorder)? Does that equipment run off autonymous systems? Excuse me if I've missed something on other posts regarding that.

Was there a power / control / communications & primary electronics outage on this plane?
If provable not, then we're home and dry aren't we. Lucky us!

This post has been edited by Graeme: Aug 1 2010, 11:45 AM
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starviego
post Oct 5 2010, 11:09 PM
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Here is more evidence that engine failure, not pilot error, was the true factor in this crash:


File ID 417219 from the NTSB Dockets, ''Powerplant Group field notes,'' does seem to indicate that the left prop may have thrown three 'counterweight' assemblies right before the crash, which may have caused some of the shaft bearings to disintegrate(or vise versa). Remember a few of the ear-witnesses heard a sound like metal grinding on metal.


No 1 engine-

pg2of23
-Three of the six counterweights remained attached to their respective propeller blade outer sleeve, while the other three had become separated and were not recovered by the Powerplant Group.

pg7of23
The No.15 roller bearing, located on the aft side of the bull gear, was present and the cage was fractured with two(2) of the roller elements missing. ...the No.19 roller bearing rolling elements were visible and one(1) roller was missing. ....The No.2.5 roller bearing cage was still attached to the front of the LP shaft. The cage appeared intact but all the roller elements were missing.

pg8of23
The outer diameter of the PT(power turbine) shaft exhibited circumferential rub mark(s) from the fractured end to almost the shoulder where the shaft diameter changes.

pg10of23
The three(3) blade positions sequentially around about the top(as the propellor was situated on the ground) had complete sets of counterweight assemblies(counter weight arm, counterweight, and rear collar) still attached, while the three(3) blade positions that were buried in the ground were missing their complete counterweight assembly.

It should be noted that none of the aforementioned damage was reported for the No.2 engine.


A few of the eyewitness accounts were consistent with an engine fire--

File ID 431227
pg4of131, Maha Abdallah
Before the plane impacted the ground, Abdallah noticed sparks coming from the plane.

pg9of131, Stanley Barnas
...he saw a bright orange flash out of the living room window. ...Barnas is 100percent certain that he saw the bright orange flash before the crash.

pg15of131, Cindy Borgosz
...saw a bright orange glow through the west window.... the orange glow was not flickering. ....the orange glow diminished, then there was a large boom and an orange 'mushroom cloud.''

pg22of131, Patricial Burns
...noticed flames coming from the rear of the aircraft.

pg96of131, Kaitlin Smith
...she saw a red/orange light in the sky.... after the flash, the sky darkened and then she heard a big bang.



They said they never found the missing counterweights. Maybe they should have looked harder--

pg27of131, Mary Cimato
The Cimato's also pointed out three large holes in a pond located behind their house... ... The previous day the entire pond was frozen over, and the morning after the crash they observed holes in the ice.


/
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Graeme
post Nov 11 2010, 11:59 AM
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QUOTE (starviego @ Oct 6 2010, 04:09 AM) *
Here is more evidence that engine failure, not pilot error, was the true factor in this crash:
[...]


Dear Starviego.

You have quoted plenty of interesting yet unverifiable from my position 'witness statements' in namely:

1) NTSB Dockets, File 431227--witness statements
2) NTSB Dockets, File 417219--witness statements

Could you provide internet FOIA URL's to visit, to allow us to verify these these alleged witness statements.

Thankyou very much.
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starviego
post Nov 17 2010, 11:39 AM
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You can access the documents here:

http://www.ntsb.gov/dockets/aviation/DCA09MA027/

---------------------------

new


The official version has it that the plane plunged to the ground at a very steep angle. However, the accounts of a few of the witnesses indicate the plane was already flying very low and level while it was still a long way from impact. This suggests that the pilot had re-gained control of the plane after the stall, and hence something else caused the final, fatal plunge to earth. To wit:

(From the FBI docs* on the investigation of the Colgan flt 3407 crash)

pg123 of 166
On the evening of 2-12-09, (Redacted) heard a low flying plane near his house that was unlike the sound of other airplanes he has heard nearby. The aircraft was flying so low that it made him shriek. (Redacted) was later watching television and saw the breaking news coverage of the airplane crash and then realized the he is only 6-8 miles from the crash site and that the airplane he heard was likely the one that crashed.

pg124 of 166
On the night of Thursday, February 12, 2009, (Redacted) was on duty (Redacted). At 10:15 pm or 10:30pm, (Redacted) was outside disposing of garbage, when he heard a plane which was very low and didn't sound normal. (Redacted) cited a "rambling noise" which sounded as if an engine was not running properly.
Administrative: (Redacted) is approximately ten miles due East of the crash site.

pg146 of 166
At approximately 10:15pm on February 12, 2009 (Redacted) heard a low flying plane by her house. She said the plane was making loud noises, as though metal was banging and clattering. (Redacted) said she lives 12-15 miles away from the crash site, but believes the plane she heard was flight 3407. She did not see the plane in flight.


Another witness confirmed that the plane was flying level before the crash:

pg20 of 166
It was flying approximately two to three times the height of the tree line, and the airplane's flying lights were on. ... At first the airplane seemed to be flying level, but then it suddenly went nose down and crashed. ((Redacted) made her hand flat to describe the airplane flying level, and made an abrupt downward motion).




*These documents were mailed to me by the FBI after I filed a FOIA request. Due to financial limitations on my part they are not yet posted on the net.

This post has been edited by starviego: Nov 17 2010, 12:11 PM
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Graeme
post Nov 24 2010, 10:57 AM
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QUOTE (starviego @ Nov 17 2010, 04:39 PM) *
You can access the documents here:

http://www.ntsb.gov/dockets/aviation/DCA09MA027/

---------------------------

new


The official version has it that the plane plunged to the ground at a very steep angle. However, the accounts of a few of the witnesses indicate the plane was already flying very low and level while it was still a long way from impact. This suggests that the pilot had re-gained control of the plane after the stall, and hence something else caused the final, fatal plunge to earth. To wit:

(From the FBI docs* on the investigation of the Colgan flt 3407 crash)

pg123 of 166
On the evening of 2-12-09, (Redacted) heard a low flying plane near his house that was unlike the sound of other airplanes he has heard nearby. The aircraft was flying so low that it made him shriek. (Redacted) was later watching television and saw the breaking news coverage of the airplane crash and then realized the he is only 6-8 miles from the crash site and that the airplane he heard was likely the one that crashed.

pg124 of 166
On the night of Thursday, February 12, 2009, (Redacted) was on duty (Redacted). At 10:15 pm or 10:30pm, (Redacted) was outside disposing of garbage, when he heard a plane which was very low and didn't sound normal. (Redacted) cited a "rambling noise" which sounded as if an engine was not running properly.
Administrative: (Redacted) is approximately ten miles due East of the crash site.

pg146 of 166
At approximately 10:15pm on February 12, 2009 (Redacted) heard a low flying plane by her house. She said the plane was making loud noises, as though metal was banging and clattering. (Redacted) said she lives 12-15 miles away from the crash site, but believes the plane she heard was flight 3407. She did not see the plane in flight.


Another witness confirmed that the plane was flying level before the crash:

pg20 of 166
It was flying approximately two to three times the height of the tree line, and the airplane's flying lights were on. ... At first the airplane seemed to be flying level, but then it suddenly went nose down and crashed. ((Redacted) made her hand flat to describe the airplane flying level, and made an abrupt downward motion).




*These documents were mailed to me by the FBI after I filed a FOIA request. Due to financial limitations on my part they are not yet posted on the net.


Acknowledged. Thankyou.
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Graeme
post Nov 24 2010, 11:32 AM
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QUOTE (starviego @ Nov 17 2010, 04:39 PM) *
You can access the documents here:

http://www.ntsb.gov/dockets/aviation/DCA09MA027/

---------------------------


*These documents were mailed to me by the FBI after I filed a FOIA request. Due to financial limitations on my part they are not yet posted on the net.


Actually, in addition, I am going to spend the time trawling through and studying all of these dockets now you have provided them. I find it quite surprising but not unusual, since the media often work this way, that we don't hear about the witness reports that seemingly point to 3407 having pulled out of the stall. Yet, still the aircraft was pointing in the opposite direction to the designated flight path when it crashed.

I guess in an emergency situation such as this, the last thing these conveniently blamable pilots, had on their minds was which way they were heading, more they were concerned on maintaining that 250' or so feet of altitude.

So, how is that explained? How do we explain it, indeed how does anyone officially explain that? Was there flat countryside in 'thatta direction' that might have helped facilitate an emergency landing, in a field for instance? They were out of radio contact, (yet another problem) and had to fly litterally by the seat of their pants. This is most sad of course, that so many things, that were not all mechanically/electrically related to other contiguous failures, went wrong at the same time.

It is time to sit down soon and review this whole accident..... a business I have found harrowingly 'off-putting' from the start ... dunno.gif

Thankyou for your FOIA request and supply of documents! It seems to me that this is uniquelly remarkable work.
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amazed!
post Nov 25 2010, 11:09 AM
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I'm guessing you're not a pilot, and thus not familiar with the term "stall-spin"

Given certain conditions, a stalled airplane will sometimes enter a spin. If it does, it begins to rotate in the vertical plane about an axis.

For this flight, half a turn in a spin would have the wreckage facing the opposite direction from the flight path.
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Graeme
post Nov 29 2010, 11:55 AM
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QUOTE (amazed! @ Nov 25 2010, 04:09 PM) *
I'm guessing you're not a pilot, and thus not familiar with the term "stall-spin"

Given certain conditions, a stalled airplane will sometimes enter a spin. If it does, it begins to rotate in the vertical plane about an axis.

For this flight, half a turn in a spin would have the wreckage facing the opposite direction from the flight path.


Not a Pilot? laughing1.gif
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Graeme
post Nov 30 2010, 01:10 PM
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I just figured out another reason why I felt a strong emotive involvement with the story of the tragic death of Ms Eckert in this crash, apart from the small personal contact we had had.

According to the small research I just did into the Genealogy, her family is, just like my own, of Scottish origins. The family name certainly is from the parts of UK I was born and been most attached to.

In her case the UK connection must have been broken following the 'Great Migration' to the North American continent and the 'Colonnies'. (Sorry Yanks, but I'm not in the mood for it). cleanup.gif

So, it was a loss for Scotland too. There's always something new to this story ...

¤ pilotfly.gif ¤
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starviego
post Dec 1 2010, 09:01 AM
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The names of 48 of the 50 dead victims were released in the first week after the crash, but the names of the last two were not publicized until several weeks later. Both of these passengers seem to have been rather 'special.'

One was an Israeli national named Ruth Harel-Katz, 52:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3671395,00.html
The names of two Israelis appeared on the passenger list....
Ruth Harel-Katz, 52, a resident of the United States, and 27-year old George Abu-Karem from Tiberias, were both killed in the crash.
The Foreign Ministry told Ynet that a representative from the Israeli Consulate in New York was on his way to the crash site in order to validate the information.

And a team flew all the way from Israel to assist in the cleanup:

http://www.zaka.us/news.asp?AID=108
A team of six ZAKA volunteers, members of the ZAKA International Rescue Unit and headed by Mati Goldstein, left Israel this evening for Buffalo, New York. The volunteers will assist the local emergency personnel and volunteers and will work in cooperation with Rabbi Jack Meir of Misaskim USA, in the recovery and identification of the victims...

Why were they there? Well, one of their mottos is:

http://www.aish.com/jw/id/48894137.html
ZAKA: Always There When Terror Strikes
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