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Nuclear Disaster Unfolding In Fukushima

Omega892R09
post Mar 18 2011, 08:06 AM
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QUOTE (tumetuestumefaisdubien @ Mar 15 2011, 07:37 PM) *
EDIT: I think only dangerous "fallout" is that Germany chancellor Merkel now announced they'll stop operation of 7 oldest reactors - which would put out of grid ~7000 MW netto - this can blackout the EU grid, which now is working already at the edge of its long range transfer cappacity. I wonder how the politicians could be so corrupted and play into the cards of the ekoterrorists and fossil lobby so openly. Her predecessor Gerhard Schroeder now sitts in the Gazprom and takes big sallaries, because he pushed through the German nuclear phase-out.

Yeah! This is a message that should be promoted loud and clear. What is unfolding in politics and the media is the usual travesty of any truth.

I am pleased I have now got a copy of Nuclear Renaissance: Technologies and Policies for the Future of Nuclear Power

Nuttall covers the whole gamut of issues WRT generating electricity including policy, technology, design, waste classification and disposal, storage of part spent fuel - short and longer term (a complex topic on its own but one which has inherent safety built in) with pathways to re-use in different reactor types. Nuttall also provides a clear background to power grid issues to do with other forms hydro, coal fired, gas fired and how they relate. Not so much on renewables but this book was published in 2005 so an updated edition should be in the pipeline.

Nuttall also describes the disastrous decisions made because of regulatory shenanigans involving all parties including the baleful NIMBY (not in my back yard) effect of the well heeled who purchased property in The Hamptons, Long Island, which caused the long delayed Shoreham plant to peremptorily shut down having been given the go ahead to power up the reactor which impacted on the cost of decommissioning. What madness. thumbdown.gif

One factor that impacted prominently on the delay to Shoreham was the decision, to save a few dollars, to chose back up diesel generators from a source other than the one known to deliver reliable products. So after the first set repeatedly failed with broken crankshafts, fixes for which also failed, the reputable supplier was engaged after all at the cost of much wasted time, allowing often ill founded, regulatory pressures to kick in and an increase in capital costs. This one is certainly a lesson in 'how not to do it'!

Nuttall is well worth looking up for those who are unaware of the power generation scenario.

I recall back in the early 1990s whilst I was engaged in software development a colleague had produced a nicely modeled simulation of a UK power grid complete with a full variety of power generation plant types and the aim was to balance the grid over time with changing conditions in demand and also supply with water having to be pumped uphill at off peak times and nuclear reactors being powered up and down. It was aimed at school children and ran on computers then prevalent in UK schools. It was a quite brilliant piece of works and commissioned by the Electricity Generating Board (of the UK). I remember demonstrating this software (for about 4 days) at a large annual educational trade fair.

As it is much of the general public don't know that different forms of radiation exist, alpha, beta, and gamma let alone why the difference is important! What is more I cannot see any evidence of any attempt by the powers that be to enlighten people.
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Omega892R09
post Mar 18 2011, 08:19 AM
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And then we have this cretin creature poking fun at the Japanese for being hit by a quake and tsunami, I knew he was low but this just goes way below any sense of propriety:

Rush Amused That Earthquake Hit Environmentally Conscious Country

my dog has more compassion than that jerk. Why does he still get paid for this shit? angry.gif America is sicker than I thought. lame.gif
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GroundPounder
post Mar 18 2011, 09:06 AM
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ok what am i missing here. the chart from:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/imag...b-RADIATION.jpg

shows that '11.9 millisieverts/hour was the highest recorded value at the plants perimeter'

normal background radiation for a whole year is ~300 millirem (depending on where you are)

thats 3 millisieverts/yr

so at the perimeter it is : ((11.9/3) x 24 x 365) = 34748 times normal. anybody want to check my math?


as far as omegas comment goes, is the sickness of some of america new to you?

edit:

limbaugh is a hypocrite from way back. he was advocating jail for drug abusers while he was popping oxycontin like candy.
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Omega892R09
post Mar 18 2011, 09:36 AM
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QUOTE (GroundPounder @ Mar 16 2011, 11:06 AM) *
as far as omegas comment goes, is the sickness of some of america new to you?

Nope!
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bobcat46
post Mar 18 2011, 09:50 AM
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QUOTE (Omega892R09 @ Mar 16 2011, 10:19 AM) *
And then we have this cretin creature poking fun at the Japanese for being hit by a quake and tsunami, I knew he was low but this just goes way below any sense of propriety:

Rush Amused That Earthquake Hit Environmentally Conscious Country

my dog has more compassion than that jerk. Why does he still get paid for this shit? angry.gif America is sicker than I thought. lame.gif



And getting sicker every day. What is sickining is that people actually listen to that Slimeball and think that he is some kind of expert with supreme knowledge. He is nothing but an entertainer, a very sick one at that, that is doing great harm to America spreading his hate. And then there is Glen Beck that has totally driven off into a garbage ditch. Only the most stupid of the stupid listen to Beck and Slimeball. Hard to believe that Faux News still keeps Beck on the channel. His viewership is decreasing from month to month (a very good thing).
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bill
post Mar 18 2011, 10:27 AM
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US Military evacuating Japan

U.S. Navy Capt. Eric Gardner, commander of the U.S. Naval Air Facility in Atsugi, Japan, explains how it's going to work.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/0...hursdays-latest




This post has been edited by bill: Mar 18 2011, 10:33 AM
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IslandPilot
post Mar 18 2011, 10:39 AM
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tume:
Thanks for this useful chart.

It helps to put these things into perspective. Eventually some of this "truth" will leak out.

As Americans, we are not very familiar with "metric system" terms ie, "millli" vs. "micro". It is easy to Baffle most citizens with these terms. And then "rems" and "sieverts" only adds to the confusion.

Of course this collective "ignorance" is cleverly used to fuel the fire of dis-information. In time, the Truth may be able to extinguish the fire... probably not though.

Only through EDUCATION and proper "reasoning" thought processes, can the TRUTH become known. And that's is why we are all here today, to EDUCATE ourselves about 9/11, and then spread the Truth.

Thanks again to "tume" a TRUTH Educator and Warrior! thumbsup.gif
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Ricochet
post Mar 18 2011, 02:07 PM
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http://www.radiationnetwork.com/

Reactor status
http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/news_images/...1300433768P.pdf
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bill
post Mar 18 2011, 03:47 PM
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Obama said yesterday :“The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and public health experts do not recommend people in the U.S. take precautionary measures beyond staying informed.”

meanwhile he ordered the Atsugi Navy base just south of Tokyo to be immediately evacuated "Women and children first"



But I'm sure that is just precautionay Tume

The US military does these emergency evacuations all the time for no particular good reason

They think that they will start out evacuating 10,000 per day but will try ot get it up to 18,000

not that there is any urgency ....
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bill
post Mar 18 2011, 04:13 PM
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"So if the TEPCO measurements are real"


a very big if

and apparently the US Navy isn't buying it

"The Navy said Thursday afternoon it would start evacuating families from Naval Air Facility Atsugi and Yokosuka Naval Base, near Tokyo. A few hours later, officials at Misawa Air Base, in northern Japan, did the same. Camp Zama, a U.S. Army facility near Tokyo, said it was allowing families and non-essential workers to voluntarily leave.
In a radio address Thursday afternoon, Col. Otto Feather, 374th Airlift Wing commander, said he expects Yokota Air Base to join the list soon."

http://santabarbaracriminalcourtcorruption...ugi-begins.html

Atsugi is a critical Navy support base for the carrier groups in the Pacific

evacuating the base is a dead serious action
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bill
post Mar 18 2011, 04:30 PM
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I have been monitoring CNN for the last hour

no mention of the base evauations in Japan
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tumetuestumefais...
post Mar 18 2011, 04:33 PM
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QUOTE (GroundPounder @ Mar 18 2011, 02:06 AM) *
ok what am i missing here. the chart from:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/imag...b-RADIATION.jpg

shows that '11.9 millisieverts/hour was the highest recorded value at the plants perimeter'

normal background radiation for a whole year is ~300 millirem (depending on where you are)

thats 3 millisieverts/yr

so at the perimeter it is : ((11.9/3) x 24 x 365) = 34748 times normal. anybody want to check my math?

Yeah the number really looks scary, as looked scary the peak 400 miliSieverts/h measured in one moment at the plant when the No4 was on fire. At that moment it really scared everybody, including me and I was fervently communicating with my friend at BNL to assess what could it mean. The point is that this looks to be just momentary peak values, which I suspect being a result of the momentarily dispersed debris in the measured zone, because the measurement is quite inconsistent with the rest of the measurements and the last values I've seen at the perimeter are not ~12 miliSieverts, but like 263.5 microSieverts/h which is 45 times less and it looks like it is consistently going down for more than one day after they started with the external cooling - so the dangerous things no more are massively dispersed in the air by heat. So if now we take your figure we come to 770 times normal, which if the trend of ~2 microSievert/hour (from the last data) decline continues and will be straightened by active removal and containing of the contaminated debris then it would get to values relatively close to normal background in just days-weeks. It is also good to consider that the contamination theoretically diminishes exponentially with the distance from the source and there is fortunately still the west wind, so most probably even more steeply.

On the other hand in fact there are still reported measurements of ~20 miliSieverts from inside the plant's perimeter, which still pose almost immediate danger for the people coping with the plant and can seriously complicate their effort, because nobody should be exposed to more than 50 miliSieverts at a time and 100 mSv cummulatively.

This is serious situation, nobody says it isn't, but it's not an end of world.

Impotant is the immediate risk of further explosions diminishes in the time as the short-lived radionuclides decay, so I think now the situation is definitely much better than several days ago and if there will nothing really unpredictable happen as another major quake over 7R I think the dangerous situation could be contained in matter of weeks and from my brief calcullations based on current measurements with negligible effects for the environment over ~3km from the plant, where I think no active decontamination would be needed and the people could return there immediately after the plant restores cooling cappacity and the run-out risk will be diminished to virtually zero.

I very much think the whole overkill with the 20 km evacuation zone +10km recommended curfew, which even in the overregulated west would most probably be not ordered, made more problems then it solved, especially when we consider in what a humanitary situation after the real disaster of the quakes and tsunamis the evacuation was ordered, and I'm almost sure, that this decision costed not just vainly wasted resources which were needed elsewhere, but I'm afraid even some lives of the overstressed people. Here we see the panic reasoning is very bad if one wants to cope with the serious situations and the scaremongering media push can seriously hamper the rational rescue efforts.
But I don't judge nobody from the japanese government, I think the situation is overwhelmingly complex to cope with and I think they do relatively bravely - if you just say compare it for example to the US govt. response to Katrina... Whom I even more don't like after this event are most of the mainstream media with their catastrophic fearmongering coverages with the obligate queer pundits disseminating their scary whatifs, which as we see were joined in their panic-making by many of the alternative medias. I think the journalism ethics again showed to be declining considerably.
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GroundPounder
post Mar 18 2011, 06:11 PM
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QUOTE (tumetuestumefaisdubien @ Mar 16 2011, 07:33 PM) *
... but it's not an end of world.


i'm not sure i used those words...

nevertheless, there are lots of isotopes that are not short lived and will pose a problem for some time to come, cs-137 (which they detected and gets taken up by vegetation and eaten by animals) , sr-90, co-60 and all the rest. i read somewhere that the germans(?, poles maybe) had to kill wild boars because they had eaten truffles polluted by cs-137 from the chernobyl disaster.

i watched an rt video where a correspondent was traveling up a coast rode 120km away from fukushima and his geiger counter was going off. sensationalism, maybe...
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Ricochet
post Mar 18 2011, 06:36 PM
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The (US) EPA radiation map website, RadNet has been disabled all inquireies come up blank. They don't want you to know.
https://cdxnode64.epa.gov/radnet-public/showMap.do

Remember, 9/11 "the air is safe to breathe"
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bill
post Mar 18 2011, 09:45 PM
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https://cdxnode64.epa.gov/radnet-public/showMap.do



:Please be patient while we get back with the data you requested."






Well I have been patient for about 20 minutes
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bill
post Mar 18 2011, 10:54 PM
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Still patient here

but no data

they must be really busy
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tumetuestumefais...
post Mar 18 2011, 11:48 PM
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QUOTE (GroundPounder @ Mar 18 2011, 11:11 AM) *
i'm not sure i used those words...

nevertheless, there are lots of isotopes that are not short lived and will pose a problem for some time to come, cs-137 (which they detected and gets taken up by vegetation and eaten by animals) , sr-90, co-60 and all the rest. i read somewhere that the germans(?, poles maybe) had to kill wild boars because they had eaten truffles polluted by cs-137 from the chernobyl disaster.

i watched an rt video where a correspondent was traveling up a coast rode 120km away from fukushima and his geiger counter was going off. sensationalism, maybe...

Co-60 is absolutely negligible in nuclear plants and is meticulously avoided if not produced for commercial applications by neutron irradiation of Co-59, because it is very high hazzard material even in trace quantities.
The most dangerous medium half-life products are Sr-90 and Cs-137 (in this order - although Sr-90 is relatively less likely to be released from the plant at the given circumstances in large significant quantities). The rest of the medium half-life radionuclides is relatively negligible in comparison of the potential risk of this two, because they have orders of magnitude lower yield and decay energy.

Regarding the measurements 120 km from the plant if they're real, I don't know, do you have a link?, would be very likely gaseous short half-life isotopes which would get out the plant through steam venting. For significant amount's of the solids which would be cappable to craze the geiger the distance is quite far there would be a significant portion of them there if we consider the wind speeds recorded.

I think the situation with Fukushima is serious, and I would think it will maybe end like level 6 accident, not 4 as the japanese nuclear agency was initially assessing, because there will be the longlasting planned countermeasures needed to contain the consequences of the mess to not have adverse effect on the health of the people and the environment.
But I also think that the Chernobyl scenario never was a threat there, because all the reactors were properly stopped immediately after the quake so the chain reaction was stopped and so:
-there was no partial not speaking total destruction of the reactor due to superhigh pressure, which for example lifted the 2000 ton heavy upper floor and lid and shot it through the roof caused by sudden power excursion of ~100 times the reactor was projected for
-there was no subsequent criticality excursion (in other words nuclear explosion) and immediate even more extreme heat power release [Usually they say it was a hydrogen explosion after the reactor went wide open by the first steam explosion and Zirconium and water and blahblah1.gif, which the scaremogering activists now use to "compare" the Fukushima to the Chernobyl, however the now known radiation signature (Xe133-Xe133m ratio and seismic magnitude) shows quite very probably it was a supercriticality event of like ~10t TNT equivalent, which consumed 0.001-0.01% of the fuel in the supercritical nuclear reaction, at the moment, when the reactor was already wide open - if it wouldn't be, the whole plant would be most probably instantly completely destroyed sidewards - but in our case the substantial part of the core was fortunately just shot up and the rest down, melted, burning through the vessel and maybe even partially boiled out instantly, partially melting through the concrete floor below]
-the primary containments are intact
-no white glowing solids or molten fuel and burning graphite discharged out of the reactor at high speeds
-no extensive fires (which to extinguish costed the firefighters their lives due to very high doses - which somewhere were like in orders you stay there just minutes and you get lethal dose.)
-no secondary activated isotopes and toxins formed due to doubtful dumping of the lead and sand into the wide open remains of the reactor building...
...all that was present in Chernobyl and more...
Also even the PEAK radiation value of 400 mSv measured at Fukushima is in order of 25-500! times lower than what was present quite steadily at Chernobyl for many days.
So the pundits, who scare the public in national TV's with their "Chernobyl on steroids" and like are absolutely ridiculous - this is not sensationism, it is just making complete fools from themselves and the qullible people too.

I hope this helps to show the Fukushima more in the Chernobyl disaster extent context
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Ricochet
post Mar 19 2011, 02:18 AM
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Chernobyl did not have PLUTONIUM for fuel.
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GroundPounder
post Mar 19 2011, 06:54 AM
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i would agree tume, that under normal conditions co-60 and a slew of others would not be created in significant quantities (if at all), but i'm sure you are willing to concede that the fukushima situation is anything but normal.

and like ricochet pointed out, plutonium. changes the game a bit.

any luck w/ the data, bill?
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lunk
post Mar 19 2011, 07:12 AM
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We got the data from Chernobyl, after it was finally confirmed to have happened.
Why not for Fukushima?

And this, is being used as a distraction for the slaughter about to commence in Libya.

At least they can still make things that are not as radioactive, in China...

Competition in manufacturing, is so last century...
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