IPBFacebook



POSTS MADE TO THIS FORUM ARE THE SOLE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE AUTHOR AND DO NOT NECESSARILY REFLECT THE VIEWS OF PILOTS FOR 911 TRUTH
FOR OFFICIAL PILOTS FOR 9/11 TRUTH STATEMENTS AND ANALYSIS, PLEASE VISIT PILOTSFOR911TRUTH.ORG


DIGITAL DOWNLOADS

WELCOME - PLEASE REGISTER OR LOG IN FOR FULL FORUM ACCESS ( Log In | Register )

2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
Help On Hani Hanjour Article!, Help recreating the last 78 minutes of Hani Hanjour

CactusLand
post Jan 21 2014, 04:36 AM
Post #1





Group: Student Forum Pilot
Posts: 10
Joined: 20-January 14
Member No.: 7,675



Hi,

I am a blogger and novelist, and have been published in Lew Rockwell, Inforwars and Pravda among others. I am currently working on a piece that specifically deals with how Hani Hanjour performed his final maneuver into the Pentagon. I want the piece to specifically cover the time from which flight 77 goes wheels up, 8.20AM until the final impact at 9.37Am. Interspersed with this will be flashbacks to his aviation training in order to compare what his skills were and what he supposedly accomplished.

I want to make clear that I am not entering this with an agenda, I am an agnostic on this topic, but want to dig into it and write something that will clear up some things with me, and hopefully for others.

Some of the things I am interested in really understanding are:

According to the NTSB report, the autopilot was turned on and off several times, but the final maneuver was performed without the autopilot. How difficult would it be to learn how to use the autopilot? Since he had never been on a 757 simulator, could he have learned it from text books, etc? He had been on a 737 simulator, is there much difference in using the two, or are they basically the same?

Since he did fly the final portion of flight, the big question I have is, if by all accounts he was not a good pilot, and had never flown a jet before, could he have practiced this on some kind of computer program? Maybe he just practiced this final part over and over and was able to perform it correctly, in spite of the difficulty?

The final approach, at a very low altitude and high speed (460 knots) apparently is beyond the VMO, how would this effect his ability to reach the Pentagon at that low an altitude?

Finally, what would the feeling be like when he turned off the auto pilot and took the controls, if he had never flown a jet before? What would be an apt comparison?

I know some will say this has been gone over too much, but I don't believe that there is an article written yet for the layman, and written well, that goes over this in detail. I want to stick the facts, and let the reader make his conclusions. I realize this will be a long article, in the 10,000 word range, long form, so I am willing to go into a lot of detail.

Ideally, I would like to be able to interview, by email, chat or Skype, a pilot with extensive experience flying a 757 and someone very familiar with Hani Hanjour's training. I understand this is asking quite a lot, but I feel that with the right sources, I can write an important piece that could help clarify, at least somewhat, this still very confusing episode.

Since this is a forum, maybe it would be better to just ask the questions here and create a discussion. I will not need names, I will just refer to pilots experienced with the 757.

I want to write a good piece on something that has been gnawing at me for a long time, and keep focused just on this episode. I don't know much about planes or flying, but am very willing to spend months on this, as I did on my financial articles, to really create something worthwhile. I should stress that it has not been easy finding a pilot, at least so far, willing to cooperate.

You can see more about me on my blog, The Cactus Land http://www.thecactusland.com/

Thanks very much for you help.

Best,

Robert
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MK58Pilot
post Jan 21 2014, 09:19 AM
Post #2





Group: Newbie
Posts: 1
Joined: 14-October 13
Member No.: 7,558



QUOTE (CactusLand @ Jan 21 2014, 09:36 AM) *
Hi,

I am a blogger and novelist, and have been published in Lew Rockwell, Inforwars and Pravda among others. I am currently working on a piece that specifically deals with how Hani Hanjour performed his final maneuver into the Pentagon. I want the piece to specifically cover the time from which flight 77 goes wheels up, 8.20AM until the final impact at 9.37Am. Interspersed with this will be flashbacks to his aviation training in order to compare what his skills were and what he supposedly accomplished.

I want to make clear that I am not entering this with an agenda, I am an agnostic on this topic, but want to dig into it and write something that will clear up some things with me, and hopefully for others.

Some of the things I am interested in really understanding are:

According to the NTSB report, the autopilot was turned on and off several times, but the final maneuver was performed without the autopilot. How difficult would it be to learn how to use the autopilot? Since he had never been on a 757 simulator, could he have learned it from text books, etc? He had been on a 737 simulator, is there much difference in using the two, or are they basically the same?

Since he did fly the final portion of flight, the big question I have is, if by all accounts he was not a good pilot, and had never flown a jet before, could he have practiced this on some kind of computer program? Maybe he just practiced this final part over and over and was able to perform it correctly, in spite of the difficulty?

The final approach, at a very low altitude and high speed (460 knots) apparently is beyond the VMO, how would this effect his ability to reach the Pentagon at that low an altitude?

Finally, what would the feeling be like when he turned off the auto pilot and took the controls, if he had never flown a jet before? What would be an apt comparison?

I know some will say this has been gone over too much, but I don't believe that there is an article written yet for the layman, and written well, that goes over this in detail. I want to stick the facts, and let the reader make his conclusions. I realize this will be a long article, in the 10,000 word range, long form, so I am willing to go into a lot of detail.

Ideally, I would like to be able to interview, by email, chat or Skype, a pilot with extensive experience flying a 757 and someone very familiar with Hani Hanjour's training. I understand this is asking quite a lot, but I feel that with the right sources, I can write an important piece that could help clarify, at least somewhat, this still very confusing episode.

Since this is a forum, maybe it would be better to just ask the questions here and create a discussion. I will not need names, I will just refer to pilots experienced with the 757.

I want to write a good piece on something that has been gnawing at me for a long time, and keep focused just on this episode. I don't know much about planes or flying, but am very willing to spend months on this, as I did on my financial articles, to really create something worthwhile. I should stress that it has not been easy finding a pilot, at least so far, willing to cooperate.

You can see more about me on my blog, The Cactus Land http://www.thecactusland.com/

Thanks very much for you help.

Best,

Robert

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kawika
post Jan 21 2014, 12:03 PM
Post #3





Group: Active Forum Pilot
Posts: 476
Joined: 16-August 07
From: Upstate NY/VT border
Member No.: 1,719



QUOTE (MK58Pilot @ Jan 21 2014, 08:19 AM) *


I am looking forward to your article.

One thing that was pointed out to me recently was the use of a right hand turn. It was explained that since the pilot usually sits in the left seat, this choice of turning direction meant that his view was not the best.

I'd appreciate it if other pilots would please refute or confirm this.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
paranoia
post Jan 21 2014, 04:16 PM
Post #4


dig deeper
Group Icon

Group: Administrator
Posts: 1,033
Joined: 16-October 06
From: dc
Member No.: 96



notes on some of hani's official level of flying "experience or skill", by way of marcel bernard and some of hani's instructors:

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_F...=3256&st=40

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=18229

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=20969

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10792258
QUOTE (rob balsamo)
...I spoke directly with Marcel Bernard (the Chief CFI at Freeway Airport who refused to rent a 172 to Hani). Marcel claimed in the first week after the attack that despite the fact he refused to rent a 172 to Hani, he had 'no doubts' Hani could have made the hit on the Pentagon. This was before he knew any data. Keep in mind, Marcel never flew with Hani himself. He refused to rent to Hani based on what he was told by his CFI's who did fly with Hani. When I confronted Marcel with the data, he said he wasnt interested in looking at any of the data. Marcel also declined to be interviewed on camera. I also spoke with one of the Flight Instructors who did actually fly with Hani. He/she will not go on the record, but he/she never felt Hani could have performed as reported. After informing him/her of all the details, he/she is certain Hani couldn't have done it, nor could a 757.


also see: Analysis of 9/11 Commission Report prior to release of Flight Data Recorder (scroll down to bernard):
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/sear...%22&ct=clnk



note that when discussing wether or not hani could have done it, there is the question of exactly what he did. in other words there is a significant discrepancy / contradiction between the official path of "flight 77" versus the path flown by the attack plane that day. one is that during its descent the attack plane arrived down river near the usatoday building, flew east of the potomac river and over dc passing right by the white house, and then crossed the river going east, with its loop only taking it as far west as the edge of arlington county; while "flight 77" in both its fdr and rades84 data stays west of the river (and never east of it over dc) and it goes 5 miles or so west (over springfield va) while descending in its spiral:



in the final mile of the approach, the attack plane ended up crossing north of columbia pike only a 1/4 mile west of the pentagon and thus had to contend with physical obstacles such as the sheraton hotel and a tall (vdot) radio tower, in addition to 8 buildings comprising the naval annex; while "flight 77's" path lines the plane up with columbia pike about 2 miles west of the pentagon (near george mason drive) and follows it almost straight for those couple miles, ending up just to the south of columbia pike, over the vdot tower but into 2 lights poles, over at least one set of highway signs, but then into 3 more poles, then gouging the top of a truck-sized power generator with the underside of its right wing, while still maintaining an envelope of air between itself and the lawn.


http://www.citizeninvestigationteam.com/faq.html
http://www.citizeninvestigationteam.com/evidence.html


***


imo, the pilot who executed the approach, descent, and "attack", was a damn good and very experienced pilot. to me the spiralling descent indicates experience in flying holding patterns and approaches for landing - possibly a pilot who has done so at DCA airport many times before. the final move: crossing columbia pike, slowing down and leveling over the annex buildings, then lining up with southwestern edge of the pentagon building and gunning the throttle, starting in a right bank north of the citgo then going into a left bank somewhere roughly over the lawn and the singleton electric trailer, and ending up over south parking in a left bank, and then eventually turning up river and ascending, all without stalling or crashing the wings into the obstacles, is to me indicative of a very skilled pilot, sitting alive and in person in the driver's seat of that plane, reacting to the terrain and obstacles around him in real time.

note, i have zero experience as a pilot and though i am an admin here, my opinions are my own and not endorsed by rob and/or this forum.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
NP1Mike
post Jan 21 2014, 07:08 PM
Post #5





Group: Active Forum Pilot
Posts: 422
Joined: 25-November 13
Member No.: 7,592



QUOTE (CactusLand @ Jan 21 2014, 03:36 AM) *
Hi,

I am a blogger and novelist, and have been published in Lew Rockwell, Inforwars and Pravda among others. I am currently working on a piece that specifically deals with how Hani Hanjour performed his final maneuver into the Pentagon. I want the piece to specifically cover the time from which flight 77 goes wheels up, 8.20AM until the final impact at 9.37Am. Interspersed with this will be flashbacks to his aviation training in order to compare what his skills were and what he supposedly accomplished.

I want to make clear that I am not entering this with an agenda, I am an agnostic on this topic, but want to dig into it and write something that will clear up some things with me, and hopefully for others.

....Thanks very much for you help.

Best,

Robert



Good luck!
You're going to need it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
justaskin
post Jan 22 2014, 02:19 AM
Post #6





Group: Newbie
Posts: 9
Joined: 28-August 12
Member No.: 6,979



QUOTE (CactusLand @ Jan 21 2014, 02:36 AM) *
I want to make clear that I am not entering this with an agenda, I am an agnostic on this topic . . .

I take this to mean that you would be open to the possibility that the whole Hani Hanjour/AA 77 story has no basis in reality whatsoever. If that is the case, may I suggest that you spend a few hours perusing the (excellent) work of Citizen Investigation Team? A good place to start would be:

http://www.citizeninvestigationteam.com/evidence.html

If you examine this material with an open mind, you just might get religion, so to speak, and not incidentally save yourself a lot of frustration.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CactusLand
post Jan 22 2014, 08:14 AM
Post #7





Group: Student Forum Pilot
Posts: 10
Joined: 20-January 14
Member No.: 7,675



QUOTE (paranoia @ Jan 21 2014, 03:16 PM) *
notes on some of hani's official level of flying "experience or skill", by way of marcel bernard and some of hani's instructors:

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_F...=3256&st=40

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=18229

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=20969

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10792258


also see: Analysis of 9/11 Commission Report prior to release of Flight Data Recorder (scroll down to bernard):
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/sear...%22&ct=clnk



note that when discussing wether or not hani could have done it, there is the question of exactly what he did. in other words there is a significant discrepancy / contradiction between the official path of "flight 77" versus the path flown by the attack plane that day. one is that during its descent the attack plane arrived down river near the usatoday building, flew east of the potomac river and over dc passing right by the white house, and then crossed the river going east, with its loop only taking it as far west as the edge of arlington county; while "flight 77" in both its fdr and rades84 data stays west of the river (and never east of it over dc) and it goes 5 miles or so west (over springfield va) while descending in its spiral:



in the final mile of the approach, the attack plane ended up crossing north of columbia pike only a 1/4 mile west of the pentagon and thus had to contend with physical obstacles such as the sheraton hotel and a tall (vdot) radio tower, in addition to 8 buildings comprising the naval annex; while "flight 77's" path lines the plane up with columbia pike about 2 miles west of the pentagon (near george mason drive) and follows it almost straight for those couple miles, ending up just to the south of columbia pike, over the vdot tower but into 2 lights poles, over at least one set of highway signs, but then into 3 more poles, then gouging the top of a truck-sized power generator with the underside of its right wing, while still maintaining an envelope of air between itself and the lawn.


http://www.citizeninvestigationteam.com/faq.html
http://www.citizeninvestigationteam.com/evidence.html


***


imo, the pilot who executed the approach, descent, and "attack", was a damn good and very experienced pilot. to me the spiralling descent indicates experience in flying holding patterns and approaches for landing - possibly a pilot who has done so at DCA airport many times before. the final move: crossing columbia pike, slowing down and leveling over the annex buildings, then lining up with southwestern edge of the pentagon building and gunning the throttle, starting in a right bank north of the citgo then going into a left bank somewhere roughly over the lawn and the singleton electric trailer, and ending up over south parking in a left bank, and then eventually turning up river and ascending, all without stalling or crashing the wings into the obstacles, is to me indicative of a very skilled pilot, sitting alive and in person in the driver's seat of that plane, reacting to the terrain and obstacles around him in real time.

note, i have zero experience as a pilot and though i am an admin here, my opinions are my own and not endorsed by rob and/or this forum.



Thanks very much for the info, I was actually focusing just on this point today, so I am very glad you brought it up. Will comment later, once I can formulate exactly the question I have with this point.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CactusLand
post Jan 22 2014, 08:19 AM
Post #8





Group: Student Forum Pilot
Posts: 10
Joined: 20-January 14
Member No.: 7,675



[quote name='kawika' date='Jan 21 2014, 11:03 AM' post='10810781']
[quote name='MK58Pilot' post='10810779' date='Jan 21 2014, 08:19 AM']

I am looking forward to your article.

One thing that was pointed out to me recently was the use of a right hand turn. It was explained that since the pilot usually sits in the left seat, this choice of turning direction meant that his view was not the best.

I'd appreciate it if other pilots would please refute or confirm this.



This is actually very important for the article, thanks for pointing it out. Is there anyway to confirm that he took the left seat, or is it something I can assume?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CactusLand
post Jan 22 2014, 08:47 AM
Post #9





Group: Student Forum Pilot
Posts: 10
Joined: 20-January 14
Member No.: 7,675



Below is a review of Hanjour's training, types of planes he flew, simulator time and schools he attended. All from the FBI and Moussaoui trial. If anyone sees anything missing or incorrect, I would greatly appreciate pointing it out.

Thanks for you help..


Hani Hanjour - Training and Planes

Total Flying Hours
As of August 17, 2001 - 600 hours logged.

Planes Flown
Cessna 172 (single engine)
Piper PA-28 Cherokee (single engine)
Piper Apache PA-23 (twin engine)

Simulators
AST 3000 30 hours
737 – 70 hours
Sawyer Aviation Simulator – Max. 5 hours

Schools
Sierra Aeronautical Academy Airline Training Center fSAAATC)
Oakland, CA 94614
12 hours in 1996

Cockpit Resources Management CCRM)
Scottsdale, AZ
9/29/96 - 11/26/96 - 4 months
12/12/97 - 12/19/1997 - 5 days
Arizona Aviation
Mesa, AZ
12/29/1997 - 04/15/1999 - (1.5 years) Received – FAA issued Commercial Pilot certificate #2576802
12/13/2000 – 12/15/2000 – 2 days

Pan Am International Flight Academy,
aka Jet Tech International
Phoenix, AZ
737 Training
02/01/2001 - 03/28/2001 - 2 months
02/21/2001 - Jet Tech International issued a certificate certifying that HANJOUR had
Completed 60 hours of Boeing737-200S systems Ground Training.
70 hours in 737 simulator

Final Evaluation

“student [Hanjour] made numerous errors during his performance and displayed a lack of understanding of some basic concepts. The same was true during review of systems knowledge….I doubt his ability to pass an FAA [Boeing 737] oral at this time or in the near future.” The 737 instructor concluded his evaluation with a final entry: “He [Hanjour] will need much more experience flying smaller A/C [aircraft] before he is ready to master large jets.”

Air Fleet
Teterboro, NJ
05/29/2001 - 05/31/2001
One flight with instructor, after which instructor refused to allow him to repeat the Hudson flight solo. Somehow, according to FBI, he does fly later with one of their planes, but accompanied by someone, not a pilot, in a Cessna 172 “HANJOUR made an error
taxing the airplane upon his return. That was the last time {they} saw him”

Sawyer Aviation
Chandler, AZ 85226
6/23/01-7/29/01 Member of simulator club (not clear if he actually did use the simulator during this period, or whether his name was put on the log by another student)

Caldwell Flight Academy
Fairfield, NJ
06/6/2001 – 7/20/2001
Rented Piper Apache PA-23 (twin Engine) on four occasions
and a Piper PA-28 Cherokee (single engine) on one occasion

Freeway Airport
Bowie, MD
08/16/2001 – One flight class
08/17/2001 – One flight class

Instructors evaluation (from FBI report):
..reviewed Hanjour's flight log and interviewed him extensively about his flight training and experience. She then refused to approve a current license rating until Hanjour returned for more training. Interestingly, both Ms. Baxter and Mr. Connor considered Hanjour to be a poor pilot, while Mr. Shalev considered Hanjour to be a "good" pilot. (only Mr. Shalev testified for the 9/11 commision)

Congressional Air Charters
Gaithersburg, MD
08/20/2001 One flight class on a Cessna 172 with EDDY SHALEV , Isreali citizen, who testified at for 9/11 commission, stated that ““Hanjour successfully conducted a challenging certification flight supervised by an instructor at Congressional Air Charter of Gaithersburg, Maryland, landing at a small airport with a difficult approach. The instructor thought Hanjour may have had training from a military pilot because he used a terrain recognition system for navigation. Eddie Shalev interview. (Apr. 9, 2004)”
08/26/2001 1 hour and 50 minute solo flight, presumably in a Cessna 172
08/28/2001 2 hour flight lesson in a Cessna 172 (last time he flies before AA 77 on 9/11)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CactusLand
post Jan 22 2014, 10:47 AM
Post #10





Group: Student Forum Pilot
Posts: 10
Joined: 20-January 14
Member No.: 7,675



QUOTE (paranoia @ Jan 21 2014, 03:16 PM) *
notes on some of hani's official level of flying "experience or skill", by way of marcel bernard and some of hani's instructors:

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_F...=3256&st=40

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=18229

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=20969

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10792258


also see: Analysis of 9/11 Commission Report prior to release of Flight Data Recorder (scroll down to bernard):
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/sear...%22&ct=clnk



note that when discussing wether or not hani could have done it, there is the question of exactly what he did. in other words there is a significant discrepancy / contradiction between the official path of "flight 77" versus the path flown by the attack plane that day. one is that during its descent the attack plane arrived down river near the usatoday building, flew east of the potomac river and over dc passing right by the white house, and then crossed the river going east, with its loop only taking it as far west as the edge of arlington county; while "flight 77" in both its fdr and rades84 data stays west of the river (and never east of it over dc) and it goes 5 miles or so west (over springfield va) while descending in its spiral:



in the final mile of the approach, the attack plane ended up crossing north of columbia pike only a 1/4 mile west of the pentagon and thus had to contend with physical obstacles such as the sheraton hotel and a tall (vdot) radio tower, in addition to 8 buildings comprising the naval annex; while "flight 77's" path lines the plane up with columbia pike about 2 miles west of the pentagon (near george mason drive) and follows it almost straight for those couple miles, ending up just to the south of columbia pike, over the vdot tower but into 2 lights poles, over at least one set of highway signs, but then into 3 more poles, then gouging the top of a truck-sized power generator with the underside of its right wing, while still maintaining an envelope of air between itself and the lawn.


http://www.citizeninvestigationteam.com/faq.html
http://www.citizeninvestigationteam.com/evidence.html


***


imo, the pilot who executed the approach, descent, and "attack", was a damn good and very experienced pilot. to me the spiralling descent indicates experience in flying holding patterns and approaches for landing - possibly a pilot who has done so at DCA airport many times before. the final move: crossing columbia pike, slowing down and leveling over the annex buildings, then lining up with southwestern edge of the pentagon building and gunning the throttle, starting in a right bank north of the citgo then going into a left bank somewhere roughly over the lawn and the singleton electric trailer, and ending up over south parking in a left bank, and then eventually turning up river and ascending, all without stalling or crashing the wings into the obstacles, is to me indicative of a very skilled pilot, sitting alive and in person in the driver's seat of that plane, reacting to the terrain and obstacles around him in real time.

note, i have zero experience as a pilot and though i am an admin here, my opinions are my own and not endorsed by rob and/or this forum.



Thinking about this part of the story, one very basic question comes to mind, and so far, it is the one that most bothers me, but maybe that is simply due to lack of understanding of flying. I should stress that I will use the NTSB info here, my goal is the present the official version as they present it, and let the reader decide how possible it is.

At 9.34 AM Hanjour is at 7,000 feet 3.5 miles south south west of the Pentagon, and he begins a 330 descending turn to the right, three minutes later, he is at about 2000 feet 4 miles southwest of the Pentagon (any help here on velocity?) For a large portion of this descending turn, he is blind to the target, moving at speed of 350? 400? knots? I have never flown a plane, but I used to survey, so here is the dilemma I have, how did he turn the angle, as we used to say. Could he have used instruments to accomplish this, or did he have to 'feel' it while at at least a minute blind to the target? This part is extremely confusing for me. First time in a jet, moving at a velocity he has never flown at, and he performs his first ever descending 270 degree turn in such aircraft, and he lines it up pretty darn well. Obviously, there was room for error, but not much. Is this flying by instinct, or was helped by instruments.....(i know many think he didn't do it, but if trying to present the difficulty of doing this, how would one explain the best way to try?

I want to present this as an incredible threading, finished off by leveling the aircraft at about 70 feet, and keeping it steady to the target. This is the climax of the official tale, and also what I want to write. How this is written, the amount of detail put in, will make or break it. This is where the reader finally throws up his hands, one would think, and say no way. So how hard would it have been? Would the alarms have been going off in the cockpit? What effect would hitting the light posts and generator have had on the controls?

Once again, thanks so much for you patience and help.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
NP1Mike
post Jan 22 2014, 05:37 PM
Post #11





Group: Active Forum Pilot
Posts: 422
Joined: 25-November 13
Member No.: 7,592



With all due respect Cactus, it would behoove you to acquaint yourself with some of the material written on this board (P4911Truth).

After having read all of the requisite material you might want to reconsider the basis for writing your article.

Using the data provided by the U.S. government it would have been impossible for ANY pilot to have flown Flt. 77 as they have described, let alone a novice pilot who could barely fly a Cessna.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
rob balsamo
post Jan 23 2014, 01:25 AM
Post #12



Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 9,745
Joined: 13-August 06
Member No.: 1



QUOTE (NP1Mike @ Jan 22 2014, 04:37 PM) *
With all due respect Cactus, it would behoove you to acquaint yourself with some of the material written on this board (P4911Truth).


Amen!

Cactus, you are asking people to re-type virtually everything that has been provided for you. In particular, please click on some of the links "paranoia" provided for you above.

This is why i ignored your email before you registered here.

If you ignore what we have written, why exactly should we re-type it for you?

There is over 7 years of solid research on this forum and our website. Please spend some time looking through it.

Welcome to the P4T Forum!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CactusLand
post Jan 23 2014, 07:54 AM
Post #13





Group: Student Forum Pilot
Posts: 10
Joined: 20-January 14
Member No.: 7,675



QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Jan 23 2014, 12:25 AM) *
Amen!

Cactus, you are asking people to re-type virtually everything that has been provided for you. In particular, please click on some of the links "paranoia" provided for you above.

This is why i ignored your email before you registered here.

If you ignore what we have written, why exactly should we re-type it for you?

There is over 7 years of solid research on this forum and our website. Please spend some time looking through it.

Welcome to the P4T Forum!


Sorry if it seems like I wanted folks to re-hash, that really wasn't my intention. I want to be clear, the piece I am writing will present 'the official version', in a narrative form, going into detail comparing Hani Hanjour's aviation education (which I left above) with what is claimed he did. It is claimed he made this final maneuver, so lets test the claim, let people read something that goes into detail, always comparing what he could do according to his training, with what is claimed he did. I think their maybe some confusion about my intentions. So when I asked the question above about the turn, if we just assume the official version, what, would he have had to do to accomplish this? IMO, this point is one of the weakest links the the official version, and I have found no one who has really tried to explain, for laymen, what 'they' say he did. I AM NOT trying to argue it couldn't have happened, or didn't happen. Let's assume it did, and explain what would have had to occurr, what obstacles he would have had to overcome due to training and pushing the aircraft to extremes, to accomplish this.

I am a writer, not a pilot, and I think the vast majority of Americans are like me... could he have made the maneuver 'they' said he did? We don't know. Folks here seem to think not, and are informed, and many are pilots. I have done enough research to understand his training well, know who was on the plane, the timeline, and the basics of the trajectory of the plane, again, according to the official version. What I want to do is write something objective, clear, and engaging that's basic premise is this.. what would this guy have had to accomplish to perform what they say he performed. Preaching to the choir has it's place, but there is also a need to go mainstream, get people on the fence, and people on the other side of the fence to really think about this.

Is this me, bad driver, jumping in a Formula 1 car and doing a lap time comparable to a professional F1 driver, or is it me just driving a Ferrari at 110 mph around a an oval? My gut tells me it's the former, but I need to know, as per this video for example:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=16

That turn, the precision, the gentle movements, seems to me that is one of those Formula 1 moments, but only someone who has flown a plane of that size, with a good idea of what he knew from his training, can tell me. I have searched this site, and many others for a long time, never found the answer, that is why I am writing this piece. I don't like writing what has been written, bores me. If there is a link to a post that explains exactly what he would have had to do, always in accord with the official version, and I haven't seen it, I apologize, but I have looked extensively and haven't found it.

I know this may seem strange to some here who clearly don't believe that the plane hit the Pentagon, but I am taking another angle. Maybe that caused some confusion. I am taking the, 'Okay, lets show, not in a simulator, but in a narrative format, what would he have had to do to reach his target as they say he did. I really think it could be an effective strategy- I believe that strongly and that's why I am insisting.

Thanks again for your help

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
NP1Mike
post Jan 23 2014, 07:10 PM
Post #14





Group: Active Forum Pilot
Posts: 422
Joined: 25-November 13
Member No.: 7,592



QUOTE (CactusLand @ Jan 23 2014, 06:54 AM) *
I am a writer, not a pilot...


Really? What have you published, so we can have a peek at your writing skills?
What you have written here so far is ripe with basic writing errors in grammar and spelling.

QUOTE
I know this may seem strange to some here who clearly don't believe that the plane hit the Pentagon, but I am taking another angle. Maybe that caused some confusion. I am taking the, 'Okay, lets show, not in a simulator, but in a narrative format, what would he have had to do to reach his target as they say he did. I really think it could be an effective strategy- I believe that strongly and that's why I am insisting.

Thanks again for your help


Read, read, read and then read some more on this site!
It's all there.
All the information that you want us to spoon-feed you, it's ALL HERE!

Hint, check out the G-forces for Flt 77 near the end of its flight !!!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CactusLand
post Jan 24 2014, 07:18 AM
Post #15





Group: Student Forum Pilot
Posts: 10
Joined: 20-January 14
Member No.: 7,675



QUOTE (NP1Mike @ Jan 23 2014, 06:10 PM) *
Really? What have you published, so we can have a peek at your writing skills?
What you have written here so far is ripe with basic writing errors in grammar and spelling.



Read, read, read and then read some more on this site!
It's all there.
All the information that you want us to spoon-feed you, it's ALL HERE!

Hint, check out the G-forces for Flt 77 near the end of its flight !!!


Hi Mike,

Sorry for the grammatical errors, sometimes I get careless in forum posts, and my other writing usually needs many revisions before it is ready.

Here are some links to articles I have published

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-moral-haz...roy-money/25230

http://archive.lewrockwell.com/orig12/bonomo1.1.1.html

http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/feedback/...in_grey_lady-0/

http://www.infowars.com/the-infomocracy-di...-disengagement/

http://www.sott.net/article/269411-JFK-and...-Common-Threads

http://dissidentvoice.org/2014/01/gold-will-break-below-960/

http://astrologynewsservice.com/opinion/as...multuous-times/



And here are my novels,

https://www.smashwords.com/profile/view/cactusland



And this is my blog, that has all of my stuff or links to it...

http://www.thecactusland.com/


I apologize again for seemingly wanting to be spoon fed, but I really don't think it is the case. Let me ask a more specific question:

8.55AM EST, AA77 makes a turn south, with the autopilot still turned on. Does this mean that Hanjour, without actually taking the controls of the plane, changed the coordinates on the autopilot? How difficult is this to do, could someone walk me through what the procedures would be, are their codes etc. Are the destinations pre loaded? Seems he could have chosen to return to one of the DC airports if they were there?

8:56 AM EST Hanjour turns off the transponder? What is this procedure? Would it be similar to the transponder he would have seen on the 737 simulator he practiced on for 70 hours? Turning off a transponder i am assuming is not something people train a lot about.

9:22 Plane begins to descend... was this the autopilot descending the plane into one of the DC airports. I know we can't know, but would this have been what it was probably doing?

As per G forces, I have it at around .57 G's, would this make piloting extreme?

I have looked for this type of info here and have not found it. If this is all spelled out somewhere, all I ask is that someone point me in that direction and I will stop asking questions. I really don't like being a pest, but I have been working very hard on this, am ready to get down to the writing, but I need to know the mechanics of these operations before I can start writing.


Thanks again for your patience..

Best,

Robert
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
rob balsamo
post Jan 24 2014, 01:48 PM
Post #16



Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 9,745
Joined: 13-August 06
Member No.: 1



QUOTE (CactusLand @ Jan 24 2014, 06:18 AM) *
8.55AM EST, AA77 makes a turn south, with the autopilot still turned on. Does this mean that Hanjour, without actually taking the controls of the plane, changed the coordinates on the autopilot?


No, it means the airplane made a turn south with the AP engaged. There is no evidence demonstrating that Hani made the turn or was even on the Cockpit. The data which we do have shows the cockpit door closed for the entire flight... therefore it would have been impossible for "Hani" to have entered the cockpit.



QUOTE
How difficult is this to do,


For someone like "Hani" who was described as "barely knew what the instruments were there for.."... it would have been very difficult and he would have probably crashed the airplane while finger-fucking the MCP trying to find the correct mode. For a seasoned Airline pilot... it would have been simple.



QUOTE
8:56 AM EST Hanjour turns off the transponder?


Again, there is no evidence Hani was in the cockpit.

QUOTE
What is this procedure? Would it be similar to the transponder he would have seen on the 737 simulator he practiced on for 70 hours? Turning off a transponder i am assuming is not something people train a lot about.


Hani was described as "I couldn't believe he had a commercial license of any kind with the skills that he had,"... so I am not too sure if he would have known how to turn off a transponder. But again, for a seasoned Airline pilot.. simple.

QUOTE
9:22 Plane begins to descend... was this the autopilot descending the plane into one of the DC airports. I know we can't know, but would this have been what it was probably doing?


The NTSB has released FDR data for "AA77". The csv files and animation reconstruction have been available since 2006 and are on this forum in the pinned topics.

With that siad, there is no evidence linking the FDR data to N644AA ("AA77")... although the NTSB claims it came from "AA77". It does not support the govt story.

QUOTE
As per G forces, I have it at around .57 G's, would this make piloting extreme?






QUOTE
I have looked for this type of info here and have not found it.


Most of it is here. Again, there is over 7 years of solid research on this forum and our main website. I highly recommend you take some time browsing and using the search feature. It will take you much less time than asking people to re-type all the information you can obtain through a simple search.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
NP1Mike
post Jan 24 2014, 06:03 PM
Post #17





Group: Active Forum Pilot
Posts: 422
Joined: 25-November 13
Member No.: 7,592



QUOTE (CactusLand @ Jan 24 2014, 06:18 AM) *
Here are some links to articles I have published


Thanks Robert for the links.

QUOTE
8.55AM EST, AA77 makes a turn south, with the autopilot still turned on. Does this mean that Hanjour, without actually taking the controls of the plane, changed the coordinates on the autopilot? How difficult is this to do, could someone walk me through what the procedures would be, are their codes etc.

8:56 AM EST Hanjour turns off the transponder? What is this procedure? Would it be similar to the transponder he would have seen on the 737 simulator he practiced on for 70 hours? Turning off a transponder i am assuming is not something people train a lot about.

9:22 Plane begins to descend... was this the autopilot descending the plane into one of the DC airports. I know we can't know, but would this have been what it was probably doing?

As per G forces, I have it at around .57 G's, would this make piloting extreme?



I think I understand what you are trying to do: write a story almost first-hand, as if in Hani's shoes, as he sat at the controls of Ft. 77 and did his magical piloting feat.

The reason why you are not getting much cooperation from us here is because, from a practical AND theoretical standpoint, the manoeuvers required to pull off such a flight would make it impossible.

But on top of that, there is a pile of additional evidence that makes the discussion of this subject moot, a complete non-starter.

Have a look at this video to understand why the 'Hani' story is pure fantasy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQenbm-aaEc





Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
NP1Mike
post Jan 24 2014, 08:30 PM
Post #18





Group: Active Forum Pilot
Posts: 422
Joined: 25-November 13
Member No.: 7,592



QUOTE (NP1Mike @ Jan 24 2014, 05:03 PM) *
Have a look at this video to understand why the 'Hani' story is pure fantasy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQenbm-aaEc



And after you have finished watching that video, please watch this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMJUJO794f8

The entire thing. All thirty six minutes and forty eight seconds. (36.48)
Please don't skip through any of it. Watch every last second.

That should help you with the piece you are writing.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CactusLand
post Jan 25 2014, 10:37 AM
Post #19





Group: Student Forum Pilot
Posts: 10
Joined: 20-January 14
Member No.: 7,675



QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Jan 24 2014, 12:48 PM) *
No, it means the airplane made a turn south with the AP engaged. There is no evidence demonstrating that Hani made the turn or was even on the Cockpit. The data which we do have shows the cockpit door closed for the entire flight... therefore it would have been impossible for "Hani" to have entered the cockpit.





For someone like "Hani" who was described as "barely knew what the instruments were there for.."... it would have been very difficult and he would have probably crashed the airplane while finger-fucking the MCP trying to find the correct mode. For a seasoned Airline pilot... it would have been simple.





Again, there is no evidence Hani was in the cockpit.



Hani was described as "I couldn't believe he had a commercial license of any kind with the skills that he had,"... so I am not too sure if he would have known how to turn off a transponder. But again, for a seasoned Airline pilot.. simple.



The NTSB has released FDR data for "AA77". The csv files and animation reconstruction have been available since 2006 and are on this forum in the pinned topics.

With that siad, there is no evidence linking the FDR data to N644AA ("AA77")... although the NTSB claims it came from "AA77". It does not support the govt story.



<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/PtlzCyKbw5Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/GNMakBEECqA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



Most of it is here. Again, there is over 7 years of solid research on this forum and our main website. I highly recommend you take some time browsing and using the search feature. It will take you much less time than asking people to re-type all the information you can obtain through a simple search.


Hi Rob,

Thanks so much for answering those questions, and I have found the NTSB report on the Autopilot and am studying it now.

Best,

Robert
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CactusLand
post Jan 25 2014, 10:49 AM
Post #20





Group: Student Forum Pilot
Posts: 10
Joined: 20-January 14
Member No.: 7,675



QUOTE (NP1Mike @ Jan 24 2014, 07:30 PM) *
And after you have finished watching that video, please watch this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMJUJO794f8

The entire thing. All thirty six minutes and forty eight seconds. (36.48)
Please don't skip through any of it. Watch every last second.

That should help you with the piece you are writing.



Thanks Mike, the video was very informative, after watching, it is clear that Hanjour padded is log book, because, at least according to the FBI report, there is no way he could have gone from 250 hours in March, to 600 hours as reported in August. At least from what I have found form the Moussaoui trial, he didn't do any flying at Jet Tech, all the receipts where for classes and simulators. Interestingly, from the FBI reports, I only have 11 hours and 50 minutes of flying time between March 28, 2001 and August 28th, 2001, the last time he flew before 9/11, which would put his real flying time at somewhere around 260 or so hours. Also, there is a discrepancy between two FBI reports about whether his time on the simulator was 28 hours, what Jet Tech told the FBI, and 70 hours, what he paid for in receipts shown in the Moussaoui trial.

Thanks again for the links.

Best,

Robert
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 




RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 17th October 2019 - 07:17 PM