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Pilots For 9/11 Truth Forum _ Pentagon _ Witness List Broken Down

Posted by: Aldo Marquis CIT Jan 21 2008, 06:56 PM

Hello all,

Here is a great resource for you all to use. It consists of a breakdown of all witnesses in relation to what they said versus what they actually saw or could have seen. I based this analysis on what was actually printed. Without direct confirmation and srutinizing of witness claims and POV (point of view) locations, they are merely static words floating around left to imply an impact.

Seeing plane + smoke/fireball DOES NOT equal actually witnessing an impact.

Seeing/descrbing a plane + reporters deduction/sensationalizing about witness account DOES NOT equal actually witnessing an impact.

Speaking with witnesses and clarifying the details of their account is the ONLY way to get answers.

Some witnesses are genuine and some are not. Some are real people with real lives who were confused and convinced by the attacks in New York while some are deep cover opertives or assets implicitly planting bogus information to make us chase our tails or delicately dancing between ambigous statements.

Some merely deduced an impact while some either arrived after the event or simply said they were there and outright lied about an impact. The fact that they "saw a plane versus a missile" is what their account was originally touted for by skeptics but when accepted that there was a plane and scrutinized against the north side flight path and the fact that the local topography does not allow a complete view of the event, most of the accounts do not hold water when analyzed.

I am open to debate on this matter and tried to remain as fair and accurate as I possibly could. If I missed anyone, please let me know. If you disagree with any of this witness designations, then please let me know. However, you should be warned that I will ask you for evidence or logic to support your argument ie pictures and other supporting factors.

Only saw plane (possibly from far away location), could not see pentagon, light poles or impact, either deduced or are lying OR do not directly mention or CONFIRM seeing an impact:
Susan Carroll (on metro platform at Reagan National)
Allen Cleveland (on subway metro train at Reagan National)
Meseidy Rodriguez (metro platform at Reagan National)
Steve Snaman (Ft McNair)
Michael Tinyk (CONTACTED/CONFIRMED by CIT US Patent and Trademark office in Crystal City)
Greta van Susteren (on the roof of a parking structure at National Airport)
Clyde A. Vaughn, Army Brig. Gen. (Saw the plane loitering over Georgetown, DC, )
Don Chauncey (small commuer plane)
Henry Ticknor (Rt 50, only saw plane for a moment-mad that people misrepresent)
Michael James -POV confirmed (Columbia Pike curve, trees blocked view)
Isabel James -POV confirmed (Columbia Pike curve, trees blocked view)
Mark Eastman
D.S. Khavkin (saw small commerical craft from back on Columbia Pike in highrise)
Allan Wallace (ran when plane came in, admits DID NOT see impact)
Mark Skipper (ran when plane came in, admits DID NOT see impact)
Steve Eiden (out on 395 loop)
Capt Steve McCoy (CONTACTED/CONFIRMED by CIT at 395 and Glebe Rd)
Andrea Kaiser (CONTACTED/CONFIRMED by CIT at 395 and Glebe Rd)
Ann Krug (Hoffman-Boston Elementary)
Mary Lyman
Oscar Martinez (saw plane, claims he only heard it hit, no confirmation to seeing)
Kirk Milburn (deceased, died in Motorcycle accident-CONTACTED/CONFIRMED by CIT, could not see impact or light poles)
Linda Plaisted
Alfred S. Regnery (watched it disappear behind bridges and concrete barriers)
Joseph Royster
Darb Ryan, Vice Admiral
Elizabeth Smiley
Steve Snaman
Dewey Snavely, Sgt.
Levi Stephens
Greta van Susteren
Phillip Sheuerman (CONTACTED/CONFIRMED by CIT, on 395, only saw plane for brief moment, did not see impact)
Phillip Thompson (does not mention seeing impact, only fireball)
Thomas J. Trapasso (CONTACTED/CONFIRMED by CIT1400 S. Barton, dubious conflicting witness and can't see Pentagon from location)
Richard Benedetto (claims he did not see impact from Rt 27)
Terry Morin (up at Navy Annex)
James Ryan (And you saw it hit the Pentagon? No, at that point it went down because I was approaching a hill.)
Darb Ryan (quote only says "when out of the corner of my eye I saw the airplane" , the writer for Aviation Week adds 'a split second before it struck'.)
Mickey Bell (did not know what had happened)
Don Scott (did not and could not see pentagon or impact, confirmed by CIT)
Ralph Banton
Michael DiPaula ("sounded like missile", reporter adds detail about plane roaring into view, not in position to make determination on impact)
Lon Rains ("sounded like a missile")
John Thurman,Army Major who works in the Office of the Deputy Chief of Staff
Daniel McAdams (only heard)
Dennis Smith (no direct confirmation of impact, may actually support flyover)
Dawn Vignola (SPOKE TO CIT IN PERSON, claimed the plane was white seemed, could not debunk north side)
David Battle
Mike Gerson
Cheryl Hammond (saw the big American Airlines plane and started running)
Dan Creed (up on Columbia Pike, no view of Pentagon or impact)
James Keglovich (no indication or CONFIRMATION that he actually saw the impact)
Aydan Kizildrgli (no indication or CONFIRMATION,writers words, his quotes do not allude to ACTUALLY seeing the impact)
Lincoln Liebner (at entrance to building in south parking lot, cannot see impact from there.-also claims plane hit helicopter which it did not)

Claims they "Saw" impact of "plane"/large airliner-were in a position to possibly confirm one:
1. Deb Anlauf (CONTACTED by CIT, would not return call)
2. Donald Bouchoux (military consultant. CONTACTED by CIT, spoke with and left message with son, would not return call)
3. Mike Walter (had dinner with CIT)
4. Sean Boger (CONFIRMED the north side, impact deduced we believe)
5. Pam Bradley (unconfirmed account/witness)
6. Hugh "Tim" Timmerman (Dawn Vignola's roomate, unavailable for comment)
7. James R. Cissell
8. Daryl Donley
9. Bobby Eberle (came forward well after the event, Jeff Gannon's boss)
10. Penny Elgas
11. Mary Ann Owens
12. Scott Perry
14Noel Sepulveda, Navy Master Sgt. (claims plane lowered landing gear and hit light poles with landing gear)
15. G. T. Stanley (unconfirmed name/witness)
16. Steve Storti
17. Carla Thompson (unconfirmed name/witness)
18. Dave Winslow, AP Radio reporter (CONTACTED by CIT, did not return call)
19. Terrance Kean (Unreachable)
20. Dave Marra (dubious, questionable witness-claims plane cartwheeled into building)
21. Mark Petitt (VERY dubious account)
22. Aziz El Hallou (Debunked lying witness, proven to be at Navy Annex)
223. Robert A Leonard(driving northbound in the HOV lanes on I-395; Pentagon is on the left. The plane vanished, absorbed by the building, and there was a slight pause. Then a huge fireball rose into the sky.")
24. Mitch Mitchell, Ret. Army Col., CBS news correspondent (account is problematic)
25. Mike Dobbs (according to writer, not confirmed, not his own words)
26. Joe Harrington (seems like it made impact before Wedge-in South Parking lot)
27. Rick Renzi (corrupt congressman, listed as law student, has plane "dive bombing", very peculiar account)

"Saw" a plane & impact from far away, but DID NOT see a second plane/jet shadowing/chasing and veering away as the impact happened:
28. Steve Anderson, USA Today Editor (saw impact from USA Today building)
29.Don Wright (a commuter plane, two-engined )
30.Don Chauncey (small commuter plane)
Steve Gerard (saw small corporate jet with no markings) (CONTACTED/CONFIRMED/INTERVIEWED by CIT)
31. Lesley Kelly, Cmdr. U.S. Navy (Ret.) (near impossible to see the plane approach from DC)
32. James Robbins (a national-security analyst & NRO contributor for National Review, William F Buckley (CIA) publication saw silver flash, "diving in an unrecoverable angle")
Ken Ford (prop plane flying up river from National)
33.Christopher Munsey, Navy Times reporter


Claims plane an American Airlines:
Richard Benedetto
James R. Cissell
Dennis Clem
Mike Dobbs, Marine Cmdr.
Penny Elgas
Cheryl Hammond
Joe Harrington
Lincoln Leibner, Army Major
Elaine McCusker
Mitch Mitchell, Ret. Army Col. CBS news correspondent
Terry Morin, Former USMC aviator (CONTACTED by CIT, would not return phone calls)
Christopher Munsey, Navy Times reporter
Steve Riskus
Mike Walter
James Ryan
Steve Storti
Tim Timmerman
Michael Tinyk (dark orange and blue) (CONTACTED/CONFIRMED by CIT)
Alan Wallace (white airplane with orange and blue trim)
Ian Wyatt
Afework Hagos (according to writer)(CONTACT ATTEMPTED by CIT)

(25 total)

Saw a "silver plane":
Allen Cleveland
Albert Hemphill
James Mosely (silver flash?)
Steve Patterson
James S. Robbins

(7 total)

Saw "the/a plane", not identified as AA:
Steve Anderson
Deb Anlauf
Donald Bouchoux
Pam Bradley
Mark Bright
Omar Campo
Susan Carroll
James R. Cissell
Dan Creed
Daryl Donley
Bob Dubill
Bobby Eberle
Steve Eiden
Bruce Elliott, Colonel
Kim Flyler
Kat Gaines
Fred Gaskins
Steven Gerard
Afework Hagos
Eugenio Hernandez
Fred Hey
Michael James
Andrea Kaiser
Terrance Kean
James Keglovich
Lesley Kelly, Cmdr. U.S. Navy (Ret.)
Aydan Kizildrgli
Ann Krug
Robert A. Leonard
Mary Lyman
David Marra
Oscar Martinez
William Middleton Sr.
Kirk Milburn
Mary Ann Owens
Zinovy Pak
Scott Perry
Christine Peterson
Linda Plaisted
Alfred S. Regnery
Rick Renzi
Meseidy Rodriguez
Joseph Royster
Darb Ryan, Vice Admiral
Noel Sepulveda, Navy Master Sgt.
Elizabeth Smiley
Steve Snaman
Dewey Snavely, Sgt.
G. T. Stanley
Levi Stephens
Greta van Susteren
Shari Taylor
Carla Thompson
Phillip Thompson
Rodney Washington

Only heard plane:
Ralph Banton
Michael DiPaula ("sounded like missile", reporter adds detail about wing)
Lon Rains ("sounded like a missile")
John Thurman,Army Major who works in the Office of the Deputy Chief of Staff
Daniel McAdams

Heard impact/explosions:
Lisa Burgess
Michael DiPaula
John Thurman, Army Major who works in the Office of the Deputy Chief of Staff

Saw something else that does NOT support official story:
Stuart Artman (plane over/near Wash. monument)
Joseph Candelario (plane flying towards White House, sharp turn to Pentagon)
Kim Dent(shadow of plane from Navy Annex)
Ken Ford (prop plane flying up river from National)
Kat Gaines (plane striking telephone poles from 110)
Steve Gerard (saw small corporate jet with no markings) (CONTACTED/CONFIRMED/INTERVIEWED by CIT)
Joe Hurst ( saw it go overhead, Oval Room restaurant at Lafayette Square? DC)
Lesley Kelly, Cmdr.U.S. Navy(Ret.)(saw it descend from office in downtown DC)
D.S. Khavkin (saw small commerical craft)
Elaine McCusker (saw AA over 14th street bridge)
Steve Patterson (small silver 8-12 passenger commuter plane)
Dennis Smith (tail section before impact from Pentagon Courtyard)
Clyde A. Vaughn, Army Brig. Gen. (Saw the plane loitering over Georgetown, DC,
Don Wright (a commuter plane, two-engined-strange behavior when questioned about direction )
Omar Campo (saw white with blue on the bottom plane, United plane)
Michael Kelly (plane flying over him while he is on the 14th st bridge, debris falling on the 14th st bridge/395, sounded like small plane)
Harry Gold (saw plane "off the registered course over the Potomac" and believes it made a dive over Rosslyn)
Noel Sepulveda, Navy Master Sgt. (unconfirmed account-claims landing gear was down and hit light pole)
Sgt. Chadwick Brooks CONTACTED/CONFIRMED/INTERVIEWED by CIT-saw champagne off white plane on north side of Citgo, admits he could have been fooled and he stands by where he saw the plane)
Levi Stephens (CONTACTED/CONFIRMED/INTERVIEWED by CIT-saw plane on north side of Citgo, claims did not look like and was not an American Airlines aircraft)
Robert Turcios (CONTACTED/CONFIRMED/INTERVIEWED by CITsaw plane on north side of Citgo, claims did not look like and was not an American Airlines aircraft)

Could see details of plane ie passengers:
Daryl Donley
Steve Eiden
James R. Cissell
Kim Flyler

Claims Saw it clip light pole:
Wanda Ramey (unconfirmed account)
Noel Sepulveda, Navy Master Sgt. (unconfirmed account-claims landing gear was down and hit light pole)
Afework Hagos (unconfrimed account-deduced? Lying?)
Mike Walter (has since changed story)

Listed or mistaken as witnesses but actually nowhere near the pentagon at the time of the attack nor did they see anything
Don Fortunato
Lee Evey
Tom Hovis
Jack Singleton

Saw plane on north side of Citgo or headed towards north side of Citgo
Sgt William Lagasse
Sgt Chadwick Brooks
Robert Turcios
Levi Stephens
Sean Boger
Ed Paik
Amy Hart (according to Steve Ross)

Posted by: Aldo Marquis CIT Jan 21 2008, 06:57 PM

Remember, the second plane contained 3 types of witnesses.

1. Those who were genuine who saw a C-130 a minute or more after the attack. I believe Scott Cook and Phillip Thompson are those types of witnesses.
2. Witnesses who may have seen the flyover and just refer to it as a second plane.
3. Complicit operatives who were trying to ambiguously blend and vaguely imply that the there was a second plane/jet shadowing/chasing close behind on the same flight path veering away from or was over or near the pentagon at the time of the impact/explosion/fireball. The wording is key and is actually even accomplished through the author of the articles. When pressed to give details they back off a bit and merely throw O\'brien under the bus by making it seem as if he controlled the plane up until the alleged impact while conspiracy theorists lap it up and take the bait, effectively missing the real problems with their account. They want everyone to look like Fetzer did when he was asked about the C-130\'s role in the BBC 9/11 documentary, 9/11 Conspiracy Files. It is a possibility that there was an effort to lengthen the amount of time after the event that the plane arrived at, ie shadow, 3-5 seconds after, 30 seconds, less than a minute.

Second plane witnesses in chronological order:

9/12/01 Albert Hemphill:

The only large fixed wing aircraft to appear was a gray C-130, which appeared to be a Navy electronic warfare aircraft, he seemed to survey the area and depart in on a westerly heading.

Sep 12, 2001, John O\'Keefe,:

John O’Keefe is driving a car when he sees the Pentagon crash. “The first thing I did was pull over onto the shoulder, and when I got out of the car I saw another plane flying over my head.… Then the plane—it looked like a C-130 cargo plane—started turning away from the Pentagon, it did a complete turnaround.” [New York Law Journal, 9/12/2001]

Sep 13, 2001, Joel Sucherman, USA Today:

USA Today Editor Joel Sucherman sees a second plane but gives few details. [eWeek, 9/13/2001]

Off to the west, Sucherman saw another plane climb steeply and make a sharp turn. \"I thought, \'Is this thing coming around to make a second attack? If there is another explosion, we\'re toast.\'\"


\"Within a minute (he says clarifies within 3-5 seconds) another plane started veering up and to the side. At that
point it wasn\'t clear if that plane was trying to manouver out of the air
space or if that plane was coming round for another hit. (Audio)\"


This is a different interview with Joel Sucherman, assistant managing
editor of, who was also interviewed at least three times
on DC area CBS affiliate channel 9 by Laura Ashburn, and Gordon
Peterson, at forty-two and again fifty-one minutes and fifty-five minutes
after WTC south tower collapse. Joel said on TV he was less than a
hundred yards from the crash site, saw a silver American Airlines 757
fly into the Pentagon, and saw a smaller aircraft fly away intact.

Sep 14, 2001, TERRY SCANLON Daily Press

\"Her brother, Wheelhouse, of Virginia Beach , spotted the planes first. The second plane looked similar to a C- 130 transport plane, he said. He believes it flew directly above the American Airlines jet, as if to prevent two planes from appearing on radar while at the same time guiding the jet toward the Pentagon.
As the hijacked jet started its descent, \"it\'s like it stepped on its gas pedal,\" Wheelhouse said. \"As soon as he did that, the second plane banked off to the west.\"
Wheelhouse\'s account of a second plane is unlike everything else that has been reported about the attack. Some initial reports on television said a second airliner might be headed for the Pentagon, but authorities later dismissed that. A Norfolk-based FBI agent interviewed Wheelhouse Wednesday evening.
A possible explanation for the second plane could be a plane landing at nearby Ronald Reagan National Airport . The Pentagon is between the cemetery and the airport. But Wheelhouse insists he was not confused by other air traffic.
After the attack on the Pentagon, reporters in Washington saw Air Force planes patrolling the skies over the capital.
Wheelhouse said it\'s possible the second plane was a military plane, but the military has not said it had a plane shadowing the hijacked jet.\" –


Brian Kennedy, press secretary for a congressman, and others also see a second plane. [Sacramento Bee, 9/15/2001]

Sep 15, 2001, TERRY SCANLON Daily Press

Another Hampton Roads native says she saw a second plane in the air over the Pentagon as a hijacked jet plunged into the five-sided military fortress Tuesday.

Kelly Knowles, a First Colonial High School alumnus who now lives in an apartment a few miles from the Pentagon, said some sort of plane followed the doomed American Airlines jet toward the Pentagon, then veered away after the explosion.

\"Thank God somebody else saw that. There was most definitely a second plane,\" Knowles said. \"It\'s so frustrating because nobody knows about the second plane, or if they do they\'re hiding it for some reason.\"

\"FBI spokesmen say they have not heard about it, although both Knowles and Keith Wheelhouse, the Virginia Beach man, were interviewed by FBI agents. A Pentagon official said late Friday no other plane was flying with the jetliner. But he said it was possible a military plane was in the area at the time of the attack.

At the same time, Wheelhouse and his sister, Pam Young, who lives in Surry, were preparing to leave a funeral at Arlington National Cemetery, which is less than a mile from the Pentagon, when they watched the jet approach and slam into the Pentagon. Both of them, as well as at least one other person at the funeral, insist that there was another plane flying near the hijacked jet.
Wheelhouse said the second plane looked like it may have been a C- 130 transport plane, but the other three witnesses say they\'re not sure what the plane looked like.\" - Daily Press/Newport News (09/15/01)

Sep 17, 2001 Vin Narayanan , USA Today

“I hopped out of my car after the jet exploded, nearly oblivious to a second jet hovering in the skies”

Oct 28th, 2001 Allen Cleveland:

Soon after the crash(Within 30 seconds of the crash) I witnessed a military cargo plane(Possibly a C130) fly over the crash site and circle the mushroom cloud. My brother inlaw also witnessed the same plane following the jet while he was on the HOV lanes in Springfield . He said that he saw a jetliner flying low over the tree tops near Seminary RD in Springfield , VA. and soon afterwards a military plane was seen flying right behind it.

December 20, 2001:

An unnamed worker at Arlington National Cemetery “said a mysterious second plane was circling the area when the first one attacked the Pentagon.” [Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 12/20/2001]

9/11/02 Phillip Thompson:

Then a gray C-130 flew overhead, setting off a new round of panic. I tried to reassure people that the plane was not a threat.

9/11/02 Scott Cook, genuine witness to C-130:

\"Directly in back of the plume, which would place it almost due west from our office, a four-engine propeller plane, which Ray later said resembled a C-130, started a steep decent towards the Pentagon. It was coming from an odd direction (planes don’t go east-west in the area), and it was descending at a much steeper angle than most aircraft. Trailing a thin, diffuse black trail from its engines, the plane reached the Pentagon at a low altitude and made a sharp left turn, passing just north of the plume, and headed straight for the White House.

All the while, I was sort of talking at it: \"Who the hell are you? Where are you going? You’re not headed for downtown!\" Ray and Verle watched it with me, and I was convinced it was another attack. But right over the tidal basin, at an altitude of less than 1000 feet, it made another sharp left turn to the north and climbed rapidly. Soon it was gone, leaving only the thin black trail.\"


Posted by: SPreston Jan 21 2008, 07:24 PM

I would add one witness to your Only saw plane (possibly from far away location)

Chris Stephenson, controller-in-charge at Reagan National Airport tower on the morning of 9-11 2001

QUOTE (Voices from the air traffic world USA Today)
Chris Stephenson, 44, controller-in-charge at Reagan National Airport tower on the morning of 9-11 2001

After the second jet hit the Trade Center, the airport tower that overlooks the Washington Monument and the Capitol from across the Potomac River was roiling with activity.

Stephenson's initial concern was following FAA orders to halt takeoffs. He stopped takeoffs for flights headed toward New York, then Boston. Within a few minutes, no one was allowed to take off.

About this time, someone from American Airlines telephoned. "We don't want any of our airplanes going airborne," the caller said. "Send them back to the gate."

"I just told them, 'Nobody's going anywhere,'" Stephenson said.

About 9:30, the phone that connects his tower to the Secret Service rang. A voice on the other end said an unidentified aircraft was speeding toward Washington. Stephenson looked at the radarscope and saw that the jet was about five miles to the west.

The airplane was completely out of place. "I knew what had just happened in New York. I had a pretty good idea what was up," he said.

He looked out the tower window and saw the jet turning to the right and descending. The jet did a full circle and whoever was flying knew what he was doing. The wings never rocked or oscillated, Stephenson said.

The jet disappeared behind a building in nearby Crystal City, Va., and exploded into the Pentagon. A fireball blew several hundred feet into the air. For several minutes, a huge cloud of debris — paper, insulation and pulverized building materials — hung in the air.

Stephenson and the others stood in stunned silence for several seconds. But then the phones started ringing again and they got back to shutting the airport down.

Posted by: rob balsamo Jan 22 2008, 04:59 AM


Thanks Aldo. thumbsup.gif

Now we have a link to send everyone who uses "There were thousands of witness that saw it hit..." rolleyes.gif

For those who wish to debate the above collection of information, please start a new thread in the debate forum and link the thread from here. Thank you.

Posted by: georgie101 Jan 22 2008, 05:35 AM

QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Jan 22 2008, 08:59 AM)
Now we have a link to send everyone who uses "There were thousands of witness that saw it hit..." rolleyes.gif

Very useful list.
Thankyou cheers.gif

Posted by: rob balsamo Mar 16 2008, 09:39 AM

Debate on this topic has been split and moved to the proper forum.

Thread closed.

Posted by: dMole Mar 5 2009, 08:33 PM

See CIT forum for the more current updates on this topic:

EDIT: updates from link above:

Samuel Danner- admitted he was lying for attention, Craig's post Jan 26 2008, 08:03 PM

Susan Carroll- at the Reagan National DCA Metro station (too far away and view of Pentagon obstructed by Crystal City high-rise buildings), Aldo's post Apr 9 2008, 07:13 AM

Allen Cleveland, Meseidy Rodriguez, and Kate Agnew- all also at Reagan Metro station (see same post as Susan Carroll's account).

Steve Storti- in his Crystal City apartment (distance and obstructed view), Aldo's post Aug 7 2008, 01:16 PM

Deborah S. Khavkin- in her apartment (view obstructed by Sheraton), Aldo's post Aug 26 2008, 08:45 AM
Steven Gerard- works for DoJ, "what I saw is what is on the record" and wouldn't elaborate on his original account.

DS Khavkin is unreachable/unwilling to return calls.
Steve Patterson doesn't exist as far as we are concerned and his flight path irreconcilable with everything we know.
Don Chauncey was across the river by the beltway. Any jet would look small to him if he even saw it.
Don Wright was in Rosslyn. A plane from Rosslyn could look smaller. Also when asked about which direction. he simply repeated the direction as if it were a script.
Omar Campo describes a passenger sized jet.
Aldo's post Oct 7 2008, 03:14 PM
Stafford saw a C-130 Hercules "30 seconds to a minute" after but Prather and Tribby video put it about 3 minutes after the Pentagon explosion- Craig's post Oct 9 2008, 05:30 PM

Maria De La Cerda, George Aman, and Donald Carter ALL describe the F-16's or "fighter jets" as coming in shortly afterward in detail.
Craig's post Oct 9 2008, 09:52 PM

Isabelle James- driving down Columbia Pike with view obstructed by trees, Aldo's post Oct 13 2008, 08:22 AM
Construction worker on roof at 1425 K Street NW (very far away), Aldo's post Oct 13 2008, 08:29 AM

Witness Pentagon, ABC, 9/11, 23:25
CNN's Greta van Susteren- at Reagan DCA airport (far away and obstructed view), Hayden's posts Nov 21 2008, 01:22 AM and Nov 21 2008, 05:50 PM

Posted by: dMole Mar 10 2009, 02:01 AM

Since I keep seeing the same 10 or so names and accounts keep coming up repeatedly, I searched for a few of those names. Here are a few of the pages that came up for those "eyewitness accounts." Many of the original sources appear to have disappeared or weren't readily verifiable.

There appears to be some "cross-pollination" on several of those lists, and it is worth verifying if the original sources are still available or if other sources can be found for those accounts.

I did also just find this "list" from 2002-2004 that I hadn't seen before and am still reading:

EDIT: There is this page too:

It was discussed on this related thread:

Were The Alleged Flt 77 Official South Path Eyewitnesses Real People?, Or were they misrepresented by the lying media as crash witnesses?

EDIT2: Here is the "main page" of one of the above "witness lists." A link to "Catherder's" ATS thread and this are the entire content of a Geocities webpage.... blink.gif

Also, here is what the Internet Archive has on that 2004-ish vintage page:*/

Posted by: rob balsamo May 19 2009, 08:35 PM

QUOTE (Turbofan @ May 19 2009, 08:29 PM) *
They are wondering why none of the other witnesses that you
contacted drew a flight path.

It may help Craig if you were more specific. Which witnesses exactly are your friends questioning... and, why havent they come here and/or gone to Arlington to ask for themselves?

Tino, if this turns into frivilous debate, please split it out and send it to debate section (including this post).

Posted by: rob balsamo May 19 2009, 09:12 PM

QUOTE (Turbofan @ May 19 2009, 09:02 PM) *
Mainly witness #'s 7 through 16 in the witness list.

Copy/pasted to facilitate reply.

7. James R. Cissell
8. Daryl Donley
9. Bobby Eberle (came forward well after the event, Jeff Gannon's boss)
10. Penny Elgas
11. Mary Ann Owens
12. Scott Perry
14Noel Sepulveda, Navy Master Sgt. (claims plane lowered landing gear and hit light poles with landing gear)
15. G. T. Stanley (unconfirmed name/witness)
16. Steve Storti

I personally know many of the above have been addressed by CIT (none of which CIT had the opportunity to interview in person, let alone get a drawing). But, they will know better than me where to dig it out... (as if their hands werent already full.... rolleyes.gif).

Tino, in the future, you may want to ask your friends to do actual research instead of thinking CIT has the resources and budget of CNN or Fox to hold their hand through the research.

Enjoy your pizza. Sounds like your friends are more interested in speculation to suit their bias ("What if...?"), rather than actually researching the facts.

These wouldnt happen to be the same "friends" who couldnt find our credentials at are they?

Posted by: rob balsamo May 19 2009, 09:29 PM

QUOTE (Turbofan @ May 19 2009, 09:20 PM) *
They asked a question and rather than fill their ears with my version, I thought they would find it more genuine to have Craig reply.

Well... has anyone thought to search the CIT

Many of the above names are litered throughout their forum. But it appears people would rather eat pizza while CIT digs it out for them.. again.

Case in point, number 15 cant even be verfied. How do your friends expect a flight path drawing?

Is there crack in that pizza?

These "friends" sound a lot like the "friends" who couldnt do a simple search to verify our credentials. lol

Posted by: Craig Ranke CIT May 20 2009, 12:52 AM

Rob's right.

We never interviewed any of them in person and Probst is the only one in that list that we have spoken with at all.

Plus he refused to be interviewed unless we got approval from the Pentagon.

Posted by: Logicman May 20 2009, 08:51 AM

Hello all,

I've been having a debate with a few friends of this forum and have a question regarding this witness list and the charted flightpath that is used by P4T.

The illustrated picture that shows the approximate flight path based on eye-witness accounts only has 13 lines drawn on it.

I am told that all witness that were contacted drew a flight path. If this is correct, were only 13 witnesses contacted? or are there many lines missing from the illustration.

I looked up the CIT and this is a part of their mission statement:

" We contacted as many of the previously published eyewitnesses we could obtain contact information for, and we canvassed the neighborhoods of Arlington Virginia on foot in a quest to find previously unknown witnesses. Our goal was to establish the final flight path of the plane before it reached the Pentagon as seen by the eyewitnesses."

A member of P4T also said this - "everyone they contacted for an interview drew a flight path."

Which is correct?

A - only 13 people were interviewed by CIT in all of of their canvasing and contacts
B - there are additional flightpath accounts not represented on the illustration

Posted by: rob balsamo May 20 2009, 09:17 AM

And we have a winner!

Tino, how did i know it would be the same ""... lol

Logicman, i'll let CIT answer (or you could perhaps actually watch their presentations to find the answer).

Buy hey, were you able to verify our credentials yet? Able to find your way to We've also added quite a few more members since then. Check the front page. Can ya take a guess how they were also verfied? C'mon, take a guess... you may get lucky... wink.gif

I will admit that i didnt verify one of the new core members at I figured he was really a pilot when we flew many trips together... smile.gif

Posted by: dMole May 20 2009, 12:33 PM

QUOTE (Turbofan @ May 19 2009, 07:02 PM) *
Mainly witness #'s 7 through 16 in the witness list.

QUOTE (Aldo Marquis CIT @ Jan 21 2008, 04:56 PM) *
Claims they "Saw" impact of "plane"/large airliner-were in a position to possibly confirm one:
7. James R. Cissell
8. Daryl Donley
9. Bobby Eberle (came forward well after the event, Jeff Gannon's boss)
10. Penny Elgas
11. Mary Ann Owens
12. Scott Perry
14. Noel Sepulveda, Navy Master Sgt. (claims plane lowered landing gear and hit light poles with landing gear)
15. G. T. Stanley (unconfirmed name/witness)
16. Steve Storti

QUOTE (dMole @ Mar 5 2009, 06:33 PM) *
See CIT forum for the more current updates on this topic:

EDIT: updates from link above:

Steve Storti- in his Crystal City apartment (distance and obstructed view), Aldo's post Aug 7 2008, 01:16 PM

16. Steve Storti

7. James R. Cissell

13. Frank Probst

QUOTE (Domenick DiMaggio CIT)
probst says he was about 6 feet away from one of the engines.....

i dont think you could get next to a 757 engine when the plane is allegedly doing near 600mph.

wouldn't it also place him under the wing of the plane?

EDIT: I'm not finding many verifiable original sources for the "six feet" part, but here are 4 Probst sources:

[pg. 13]

"Frank Probst, 58, is a West Point graduate, decorated Vietnam veteran, and retired army lieutenant colonel who has worked for the Pentagon Renovation Program Office on information management and telecommunications since 1995. ..... As he approached the heliport (figure 3.2) he noticed a plane flying low over the Annex and heading right for him. According to the Arlington County after-action report (Arlington County, 2002), this occurred at 938 a.m. The aircraft pulled up, seemingly aiming for the first floor of the building, and leveled off. Probst hit the ground and observed the right wing tip pass through the portable 750 kW generator that provides backup power to Wedge 1.The right engine took out the chainlink fence and posts surrounding the generator. The left engine struck an external steam vault before the fuselage entered the building. As the fireball from the crash moved toward him, Probst ran toward the South Parking Lot and recalls falling down twice. Fine pieces of wing debris floated down about him. The diesel fuel for the portable generator ignited while he was running."

Is anyone else noticing a pattern with that "104" number? EDIT: (Which is considerably less than the "thousands and thousands" that some people have often claimed, nearly always without verifiable sources)."

Posted by: dMole May 20 2009, 01:33 PM [Warning: most of the numbered footnotes appear to be broken, but there are some leads here to be followed up on.]

What was the initial speculation of what happened at the Pentagon?

Despite the fact that it was widely known that hijacked airliners were being used as weapons that day, and that a hijacked airliner allegedly was heading towards Washington D.C. — no one initially seemed to know what had happened at the Pentagon!

Initial reports flowed into the Situation Room (the crisis center during 9/11), that there was a bomb at the Pentagon, perhaps a car bomb. While Arlington County Emergency Communications Center reported an airplane crash in the vicinity of the 14th Street Bridge. Eyewitnesses close to the Pentagon seemed convinced that something other than an airliner hit the Pentagon. Lon Rains “was convinced it was a missile.”[i] Some thought it had been a small commuter jet or prop plane, and another claimed, “ It must have been a helicopter.” In the late morning, Fox TV had reported that the Pentagon had been hit by a U.S. Air Force flight. Some witnesses were puzzled, like Tom Hovis who remarked, “Strangely, no one at the Reagan Tower noticed the aircraft.” While Scott P. Cook, who worked immediately opposite the Pentagon on the other side of River, commented, “I cannot fathom why neither myself nor Ray, a former Air Force officer, missed a big 757, going 400 miles an hour, as it crossed in front of our window in its last 10 seconds of flight.” CNN claimed during live coverage that, “An eye-witness told us the plane didn’t crash into the building.”254

So it appears that, nearly a full hour after the attack had occurred, no one had yet begun to piece together the official story of what had happened. Enter Donald Rumsfeld…

Who was the first to claim that an aircraft hit the Pentagon?

According to Assistant Secretary of Defense Victoria Clarke, it was none other then Donald Rumsfeld who first determined that an airplane had struck the Pentagon — half an hour after the attack had occurred.

When [Rumsfeld] came back in the building about half an hour later, he was the first one that told us he was quite sure it was a plane. Based on the wreckage and based on the thousands and thousands of pieces of metal. He was the one that told us, the staff that was in the room. So he was really the first one who told us that it was most likely a plane.197

Amazingly, even before the attack, Rumsfeld is confident that the Pentagon will get attacked! He said to Congressman Cox, “Believe me, this isn’t over yet. There’s going to be another attack, and it could be us.306

Who published the first report of an aircraft hitting the Pentagon?

The first statement toward identification, was made by the Pentagon’s website. It announced — a commercial airliner, possibly hijacked, had hit the Pentagon.

Who made the first claim that it was Flight 77 that hit the Pentagon?

Theodore Olson, U.S. Solicitor General and right-wing ideologue played a key role in producing the official story. It was Ted Olson that single-handedly verified the “hijacked by Arabs and flown back to Washington” story through his inconsistent accounts of unconfirmed cell phone calls that he supposedly received from his right-wing propagandist wife. Thus, Olson sealed the connection between Flight 77, the hijacking, and the Pentagon. By afternoon, it become generally accepted that the aircraft that hit the Pentagon was Flight 77. Then the story spread quickly through the media, source — CNN.

Where were the regular-guy eyewitnesses?

There was allegedly hundreds of eyewitnesses present — local and national media figures, prominent politicians, police and fire personnel, and military and intelligence personnel — but where were the tourists, construction workers, secretaries, bus drivers, etc? One of the few, if not only tourist, was Judy Rice, her story appeared in an article by the Nation:

Judy Rice, a tourist from Clearfield, Utah, visiting Washington with her 13-year-old daughter, Arianna, was trembling and on the verge of tears as she stood not far from the Pentagon. “I just don’t know where to go, “she said. “I fear for my daughter. She’s my youngest. All I want is to get away from the monuments.” [ii]

She seems to be a credible witness, fearful and confused — she mentions nothing of an aircraft. In another report, Kim Dent, administrative assistant, who works across the street from the Pentagon, said she and some co-workers were looking out the window of their office building. “We saw the shadow of a plane. We heard the engine. We all said, ‘That plane is flying kind of close.’”258 Again she mentions nothing of an aircraft, let alone a crash — she was right across the street and only saw a shadow, which would imply that it was high enough that she didn’t see it.

11. Mary Ann Owens

Mary Ann Owens – journalist for Gannett.

By Phil Currie, Senior Vice President/News

Mary Ann Owens, a newsroom assistant at Gannett News Service, was driving her car alongside the Pentagon Tuesday morning. Suddenly, an American Airlines plane hijacked by terrorists passed some 50 feet above her car and crashed into the building. Smoke and flames engulfed the west wall.

''At first no one moved,'' she later wrote for GNS. ''Then the debris began falling over the cars.'' Stalled in traffic, motorists pulled their cars aside to let emergency vehicles pass.

Mary Ann helped calm one woman who was screaming. Her own hands shaking, she called her husband. Then she turned to her role as a journalist.

''I went from car to car asking if anyone had a camera. Four cars down, a woman had a disposable camera. She asked for $20. I paid. An officer in uniform yelled for me to get back in my car. I snapped pictures of the carnage from my car as I was being directed away.''

Later, one of her photos from the scene moved on the wire for use in Gannett newspapers."

* Douglas H. McCorkindale – Chairman of Gannett. He is also the Director of Associated Press, Continental Airlines, Inc., and Lockheed Martin Corporation.266

Douglas H. McCorkindale
Kim Dent and Judy Rice accounts at:

"The secretary [Rumsfeld] was in his office, really not that far away from the side of the building that got hit by the plane. He and another person immediately ran down the hallway and went outside and helped some of the people, some of the casualties getting off the stretchers, etc. When he came back in the building about half an hour later, he was the first one that told us he was quite sure it was a plane. Based on the wreckage and based on the thousands and thousands of pieces of metal. He was the one that told us, the staff that was in the room. So he [Rumsfeld] was really the first one who told us that it was most likely a plane. "

EDIT: The #306 Rumsfeld quote can be verified here:

Revealed: what really went on during Bush's 'missing hours'
Three months after the attacks on the Twin Towers there remains a mystery as to what happened to the President that day. William Langley pieces together the vital moments in the transformation of a presidency.

Posted by: dMole May 20 2009, 01:45 PM

More on Rumsfeld & Co.:

Rumsfeld, or Rums"fled" What to call it when the Sec of Def abandons his post?
Gail Sheehy, in an article published in the LA Times on Friday, August 13, 2004, points fingers and names names, but she does not tell the whole story.

A few choice excerpts from her articles:

Rumsfeld and Bush Failed Us on Sept. 11 (LA TIMES 8/13/04)
"Two planes hitting the twin towers did not rise to the level of
Rumsfeld's leaving his office and going to the War Room? How can that be?" asked Mindy Kleinberg, one of the widows known as the Jersey Girls, whose efforts helped create and guide the 9/11 commission.
The lead military officer that day, Brig. Gen. Montague Winfield, told the commission that the Pentagon's command center had been essentially leaderless: "For 30 minutes we couldn't find" Rumsfeld.
[Rumsfeld] didn't speak to the vice president until 10:39 a.m.,
according to the report. Since that was more than 30 minutes after the last hijacked plane crashed, it would seem to be an admission of dereliction of duty.
Why wasn't Rumsfeld able to see on TV what millions of civilians
already knew? After the Pentagon was attacked, why did he run outside to play medic instead of moving to the command center and taking charge? The 9/11 report records the fatal confusion [italics mine] in which command center personnel were left: ...

Who's in Charge Here? (Mother Jones 7/22/04)
"In what may be one of the most remarkable statements in the report, the commission concludes that "[t]he Secretary of Defense did not enter the chain of command until the morning's key events were over."

Bush was similarly absent from fulfilling his duties. Bush swore on the Bible at his inauguration to protect this country from all enemies, foreign and domestic. Yet at the exact moment that the towers were burning and crumbling to dust, Bush chose to sit in a second-grade classroom, carrying on with reading a book called "My Pet Goat". After being told by his Chief of Staff, Andrew Card, "America is under attack," Bush sat and did nothing for twenty agonizingly long minutes when he should have seized the helm of government and taken steps right away to protect the country. Again, the absence of leadership caused fatal confusion, (to borrow Sheehy's language).

The information that really needs national coverage is that the person ostensibly left "in charge" was a rookie Captain named Leidig who was told the night before (Sept 10) to sit in for Gen. Montague Winfield, the director of the National Military Command Center (NMCC). Leidig was "in charge" for only the 90 minutes that the crisis was happening. In this writer’s humble opinion, this is obviously not just a coincidence.

The official investigation of the September 11th events has failed to
explain or even to ask why the top officials in the U.S. military chain
of command were missing in action during the attacks.

The report neglects to mention anything about the whereabouts on Sept. 11 of Gen. Montague Winfield, the director of the National Military Command Center, the "war room" located in the Pentagon itself.

Montague Winfield

The Joint Chiefs of Staff are technically advisers
( ) to the executive and
theater command, which under law "runs from the President to the
Secretary of Defense; and from the Secretary of Defense to the commander of the combatant command." As the theater of combat on Sept. 11 was domestic, the function of combatant command resided in the NMCC and authority therefore ran from Bush to Rumsfeld to Winfield.

Winfield was scheduled to be at his post on the morning of Sept. 11. But on Sept. 10 he arranged for his deputy to relieve him the next morning, at exactly 8:30 a.m. This turned out to be just eight minutes before the military was alerted to the diversion of the first flight, at 8:38 a.m. (according to the timeline in The 9/11 Commission Report).

The report mentions Winfield by name only once, as a source in a
footnote, without clarification (Ch. 1 fn 190, p. 463). His apparent absence from the NMCC after 8:30 a.m. was revealed to the Commission in a June 17, 2004 statement by his deputy, Capt. Charles J. Leidig (who was recently promoted to admiral).

Winfield was scheduled to testify before the Kean Commission in public on the same day as Leidig. As on Sept. 11, he was a no-show. Leidig spoke for him, saying under oath that on Sept. 11, "Right after we resolved what was going on with United 93, around that time General Winfield took over" command of the NMCC.

Thus Gen. Winfield did not hold any operational authority until after the attacks were over. In the further absence of Bush and Rumsfeld, the man in charge of the U.S. military during the attacks was apparently Capt. Leidig, a rookie in the job who, in his own words, first qualified in August 2001 "to stand watch as the Deputy Director for Operations in the NMCC."

Winfield either forgot his own absence or attempted to gloss over it when he was filmed for a 2002 Discovery-Times documentary...

Why would Winfield try to hide an absence for which no one would otherwise think to blame him, since it was arranged the night before? Where was he during the 90 minutes after 8:30 a.m.?

Posted by: Craig Ranke CIT May 20 2009, 02:06 PM


If a witness is willing to talk to us, willing to go on camera, and willing to illustrate an estimated flight path we are willing to document what they will tell us.

So far none that were willing placed the plane on the south side.

None of them.


I know it's hard to accept and I know you'd rather not believe what has been proven by the evidence but you can't change where all of the witnesses saw the plane fly.

Posted by: dMole Sep 16 2009, 09:34 PM

[The "Law?" of Diminishing Pentagon Eyewitnesses??]

"Thousands of eyewitnesses..."

QUOTE (jthomas @ 13 Sep 2009 05:04 PM)
Now, all of the evidence from hundreds of different sources and thousands of eyewitnesses converges on the conclusion that AA77 hit the Pentagon.

[plus bonus "canard" successfully predicted one post below that wink.gif ]
"Results 1 - 10 of about 101 for jthomas "above top secret" +canard. (0.11 seconds)"
"[nearly] 200 eyewitnesses..."
QUOTE (GenRadek @ 16 Sep 2009 06:14 PM)
Ah yes tezz, and nearly 200 eyewitnesses see the plane crash into the Pentagon, including the handpicked "stars" for CIT, all confirm it slammed into the Pentagon. A "dozen" sources claim NoC flightpaths, (even though its obviously incorrect or edited to appear in that manner), and they trump the 200 that witnessed the impact. OH and ZERO for magic flyover.
[NOTE: NO source ever cited, and bold emphasis mine in both quotes above]
[with slightly better "research" from "Club Hoff":]

QUOTE (911research)
Joël v.d. Reijden created the following summary of the frequencies of specific observations in the eyewitness reports described in the compilations by Eric Bart and "SomeGuyYouDontKnow33."

about 89 The amount of eye witnesses I gathered who stated they saw an object crash into the Pentagon. The vast majority of the still available ones.
at least 45 The amount of eye witnesses who reported seeing a plane and described it with words like: 'airliner', 'big', 'silver', 'roaring', etc.
at least 23 The amount of eye witnesses who specifically said they saw an American Airlines jet. In all cases a large jet.
at least 22 The amount of witnesses who reported the noise of the plane was very loud to deafening.
at least 17 The amount of eye witnesses who stated they saw a plane running down light poles when crossing the highways.
at least 12 The amount of eye witnesses who stated they saw and heard the plane increase its throttle at the last seconds.
at least 11 The amount of eye witnesses who stated they saw a C-130H flying 30 seconds behind a jetliner.
at least 5 The amount of eye witnesses who specifically stated they saw the plane had its gear up.
at least 2 The amount of eye witnesses who stated that they saw a small corporate jet, without doing any creative interpretating [sic] of the witness accounts.
at least 0 The amount of eye witnesses who stated they saw a missile. What the person thought he heard isn't relevant!
at least 0 The amount of eye witnesses who stated they saw a military jet fighter at the time of the crash.
at least 0 The amount of eye witnesses who stated they saw a Global Hawk at the time of the crash.
at least 3 The amount of witnesses who reported the sound of the plane was quite noiseless. (One of them acknowledged it was the shock)
at least 1 The amount of eye witnesses who stated they saw the plane had it's gear down. (Indirect, said a wheel hit a pole)
at least 25 The amount of witnesses who have said something that might point to the use of explosives or incendiaries. (White flash, powerful blast waves which blew people through the air, molten glass, burning aluminium, [sic] spreading debris over hundreds of yards back to where the plane came from, including 2 engines, the missing plane itself, etc.)

A quick look at this summary indicates overwhelming support by the eyewitnesses that a large jetliner crashed into the Pentagon.

1. Pentagon: Why the No-757 Crowd is Making an Ass out of Itself

Bold emphasis and a pair of quotes for "SomeGuyIDon'tKnow" above are mine, and @ "Club Hoff"- P.S. "De pagina is niet gevonden"- your original footnoted "source" appears to have since disappeared (like Pickering, and J. Farmer/, and... ) whistle.gif

Now EXACTLY how many of these "some/about eyewitnesses" have actual names and faces, and have given recorded FIRSTHAND accounts (as opposed to internet and media hearsay) again? How many have drawn flight paths on the applicable photos/diagrams? Any legal, notarized affidavits, perhaps?

Also, wouldn't we need to know n [ = the total, EXACT number of all potential eyewitnesses outside and looking upward at the Pentagon in the Arlington/Pentagon area around or before 09:48 EDT on 11 Sep 2001] in order to calculate percentages, probabilities, and "majorities?" [HINT: Is it "thousands," or "[nearly] 200" or "about 89" or a logical fallacy?]

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