Okay, Just WOW Options

[KILL YOUR TV!]

I too am a Christian of sorts. I have explored the faith from a few angles ( eg. hardcore ala Jesus Camp ). I must say that I firmly believe in God. But not in the Church. I have been in many Churches in my day and all of them ended up being more about the congregation than anything else - ie. Holier than though attitudes. Too much "look at me, I am so holy!"

I read "Da Vinci Code" and loved it. It only made my beliefs and love for God stronger. I think the concept of Christianity has been twisted and distorted by those that publish books and run Churches. It's a 1-1 relationship if you are lucky enough to discover it. I pray almost daily. And it's amazing how my many of my prayers are answered!

For the record, I drink, smoke, swear and I'm not married to my partner. But who's perfect. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

just my 5c. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/cheers.gif)

p.s - God made beer (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/cheers.gif)

edit: Unholy typos!

This post has been edited by KILL YOUR TV!: Nov 7 2006, 04:21 PM

[JerryB9105]

I'll never forget the time I was riding the subway train in Manhattan (New York) --

And the train pulled to a stop and the doors slid open and this barefoot guy with his head shaved bald and wearing a white sheet wrapped around himself stepped onto our car. He was holding out in front of him a Campbell soup can as he explained something about the rice problems in India as he moved from person to person (no one looked him in the eye) -- the train pulled to its next stop and the guy got off the car. It was as if he had the speech timed perfectly. I have no idea what his religion was but it seemed vaguely similar to those same guys that used to hang out in airports handing out flowers.

[Method]

p.s - God made beer (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/cheers.gif)

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." - Benjamin Franklin



(IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/cheers.gif)

[CrazyBlade]

KYTV I'm with you on a lot of your post.

I would consider myself a Christian - I believe in God. I have no doubt of the existence of Jesus Christ - the Romans documented him, and I believe (although I may be wrong) that The Koran mentions him. I am unsure, however, of the assertion that he was "God's Son", and that comes down to the problem I have.

I hate organised religion because the books that are followed were written by men who wished for power, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Let me give you some examples.

The Council Of Nicaea in the 4th Century AD was gathered to discuss the formation of a "Bible", and the notion of a "Holy Trinity" was only formed then. Not before. And, as some accounts suggest, bishops who disagreed with this policy may have been assassinated.

Good start, eh?

What about the number of translations that have been made on the Holy Bible? Numerous, each with their own slant on things, with little differences in each. Additionally, how many have happened through history? The most obvious is the King James Edition, and one passage stands out in my mind as extremely telling.

Exodus 22:18. "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". However, the original text may have actually been wrongly translated, with it possibly saying "thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live". There are other beliefs about the translation being even further off. It is important to remember, however, the King James was looking for a political standpoint and a witch hunt was an excellent one to move with in those times.

One thing that really gets me about the Bible is the way it decrees that you should only believe the Bible and no other testaments. Why? Would God limit himself to one communication with us? I think not. No, more likely it was the men who put the Bible together, afraid of other men putting a more popular slant on things for the masses.

Its things like this that push me away from organised religion.

[Method]

KYTV I'm with you on a lot of your post.

I would consider myself a Christian - I believe in God. I have no doubt of the existence of Jesus Christ - the Romans documented him, and I believe (although I may be wrong) that The Koran mentions him. I am unsure, however, of the assertion that he was "God's Son", and that comes down to the problem I have.

I hate organised religion because the books that are followed were written by men who wished for power, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Let me give you some examples.

The Council Of Nicaea in the 4th Century AD was gathered to discuss the formation of a "Bible", and the notion of a "Holy Trinity" was only formed then. Not before. And, as some accounts suggest, bishops who disagreed with this policy may have been assassinated.

Good start, eh?

What about the number of translations that have been made on the Holy Bible? Numerous, each with their own slant on things, with little differences in each. Additionally, how many have happened through history? The most obvious is the King James Edition, and one passage stands out in my mind as extremely telling.

Exodus 22:18. "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". However, the original text may have actually been wrongly translated, with it possibly saying "thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live". There are other beliefs about the translation being even further off. It is important to remember, however, the King James was looking for a political standpoint and a witch hunt was an excellent one to move with in those times.

One thing that really gets me about the Bible is the way it decrees that you should only believe the Bible and no other testaments. Why? Would God limit himself to one communication with us? I think not. No, more likely it was the men who put the Bible together, afraid of other men putting a more popular slant on things for the masses.

Its things like this that push me away from organised religion.

I'm with you 100% CB.

The muslims recognize him as a prophet just like Mohammed. They just believe that Mohammed is the last prophet.

I've been told that by Muslim friends.




Someone correct me if I'm wrong. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif)

[forester]

i believe that religion is actually a natural phenomenon. humans naturally view their mother and father as omnipotent. this sense of an all powerful mother or father figure is then translated into a supernatural god figure.

is it that surprising that our ancient ancestors heard thunder, saw lightning, felt earthquakes, suffered from drought, drowned in thunderstorms....and interpreted these unexplainable and uncontrollable events as being the work of a loving god or a hateful devil?

it makes perfect sense to me.

read this article in the ny times. talks about an instinctual sense of right and wrong...right from birth.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/27/books/re...e5a122e&ei=5070

[CrazyBlade]

Fascinating point of view Forester, really. Got me thinking, that's for sure... Thankyou.

[forester]

i should also add that i do usually believe in some sort of higher power that creates and sustains the universe. i think its silly to believe the universe, life, etc, is one big accident. but that doesnt mean the higher power i believe in has a grey beard, speaks hebrew, or spells out right from wrong. thats clearly a projection of our parents, in my opinion.

i think if there is a "god" it is so advanced and so beyond our understanding, that to understand god.....you would have to be god.

.......hoping that soon the vulcans will land and explain it all to us.

kidding...but only partially.

My post here is in no way intended to offend anyone.

I am both a historian and scholar although I have a interest in flying as well.

I am a practicing Roman Catholic. It is a great insult to me personally and to the faith of all Christians, when non Catholics call themselves Christian. In fact, they are not.

Protestantism, Judiasm, Islam and other sects are in fact heresies of Christianity.
Each of these sects accepts some parcel of the Deposit of Faith, but rejects most of what Christianity teaches.

Judaism began in post 70 a.d. Protestanism in 1517 and Islam in 630 ad.

Since the time of Adam and Eve there has only been one true religion.
Until the time of the New Coveant ( 30 ad) the One True Religion in the world was Temple worship and the Torah. A long list of miracles confirm this which I will not get into. Jesus ended the Old Covenant, and it was superceeded by the New Covenant.

For example: the older form of Baptism was circumcision while water baptism replaced that.

Sacrifice was a bloody sacrifice , to be replaced by an unbloody sacrifice.

In the Old Covenant the priesthood was with in one family line , while today it is open to those who believe in Jesus and are validly ordained by bishops in Apostolic succession with valid orders.

Lutherans, and others are man made sects that might have human faith in some things, but are lacking in Divine Faith and are all outside the hope of Salvation.

So, in a nutshell, please do not refer to yourself as a Christian if you are a non Catholic, since you are only members of a man made assembly of people who share common opinions.

[CrazyBlade]

Buchenwald, forgive me, but whether you intend to insult or not, your post can be taken that way. It demonstrates my problem with organised religion perfectly.

What gives the Catholic Church the right to proclaim that it is the "one true church". Based on what? The Bible? The Gospels may or may not have been written around the time of Jesus Christ, but there were many more than are in the modern day Bible, with many testiments of other disciples being disregarded. What about the Gospel of Thomas? Or Mary Magdelene? Or the many others of around 50 Gospels that were considered and disregarded? This, by definition, means the Gospels are incomplete. Besides, does the Bible ever say that the Catholic Church is the one true Church? No, it doesn't.

Judaism began in 70AD?? Er, no. Take a look at this article:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/ju...history_1.shtml

That puts it at over 3500 years old as a faith. Catholicism came first?? Sorry, but not by a long shot. And just a Google search shows countless other histories showing the same. After all, Jesus Christ himself was a Jew, so that puts it well before 70AD to begin with.

Christian, by definition, means "follower of Christ". To say that one religious faith has absolute right to that term is proposterous. Jesus Christ was an amazing teacher, a prophet to many, and can be followed regardless of your organised religion persuasion.

NO ONE CHURCH HAS THE RIGHT TO DEFINE CHRISTIAN AS THEIR OWN.

I would defend every man's right to their own religious beliefs till my last breath, but please do not try and say that others cannot use a term just because they are not part of your faith. That is utterly divisive and without merit.

I would offer you a book by Michael Hoffman , called Judaism's Strange Gods.

While many people think Judaism is a religion older than Christianity, it is not. Judaism does not heed the Torah but rather it isbased onthe Talmud which is really norting more than a highly complicated compliations of Rabbi commentary.
The Talmud is also extremely racist towards gentiles or goy. This contempt of others finds expressions in many Zionists actiosnaround the world, particularly Palestine.

We know from Divine Revelation there is only One True religion. It was Jesus who revealed Himself to others and who started what we now know as the Catholic church.

There were many other gospels in the 4th century and that is why a council was called to fdetermine the real gospels from the man amde gospels.

The fact is, the Catholic church( when it comes to faith and morals) is guided by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus promised this to His church in the ACTS of the APOSTLES.

In the time of Jesus, it was the tribes of Israelites ( Jew is a term that only came in to usage in the 18th century and is slang for Judean) who were clearly the Chosen people.

Yet, even in this group there were only small numbers who practiced faithfully the True Religion.

The same is true today. Many peope call themselves Catholics, but few follow the truth.

For example, it is ONLY the Catholic Church which forbids contraception. But this is not a manmade rule, it is Divine. The Bible clearly shows God condemns birth control, as we can read in Genesis.

Ask yourself why is it inthe history of the world, the only recorded instances of a dead person coming back to life, have been those in the One True Faith.

The Devil has many powers, but bringing a person back from death is not one of them

People refuse to accept there might be One True Faith , the Catholic Faith, mostly becasue they are living in sin and refuse to detach themselves from it.

Whether it is living together without marriage or getting divorced and remarried or some other sin, or justa over abundance of pride, which is the worst sin.

When people die and are standing before the judgment seat , Jesus might well ask, why did you not ever enter my Church ?
I never knew which one it was Jesus might be your answer.

Well, ( Jesus might reply) in America you had my church in every town and city, but you never found it.

Perhaps you chose to not look for it ?

If a person takes one look at the fact the Catholic church is ONE, it has Apostolic roots and is the same faith and church everywhere in the world with the same beliefs and then compares that to any self identified non Catholic Church, with multiple beliefs, no apostolic succession, no patriarch, no saints and no miracles it is a easy exercise in deductive reasoning.

There are no other options.

Even the Jews admit this is some sense as they continue to search for the Messiah they invented the character SuperMan, a invention of New York Jews in 1930's.

For disbelieving Jews, the past 2000 years has been one disappointment after another as they continue to place thier hope in one false messiah after another.

Yet, at the same time continue to attack and undermine the One Church and faith
their Messiah has already established on earth, exactly as foretold inthe Torah.

Born in Bethlehem from the House of David. The time line from DANIEL even fits to a t.

[CrazyBlade]

Sir, it is my belief that you are distorting the facts to your own benefit. For the sanctity of this forum and, indeed, this thread, I will therefore no longer by replying to your attempts at misguiding people over the history of any religious belief. I will also be sceptical of anyone who can portray "facts" so blatantly and have no merit or foundation in them.

You have made comments a number of times which seem contradictory of anything regarding Judaism, and I will bring this to the attention of my fellow Moderating Team members. I will not be replying to you further.

CrazyBlade

[shoon]

Do you still believe Santa Clause comes to give you a present all over the countries?
Santa Clause is a tool to teach how kids should behave.

So the God is.

Jesus may have been a good person but he is not a god merely a human. He is simply used as a tool to teach how people behave.

So what’s this thread for?

I refer those who honestly think Judaism is Torah based to read the book I mentioned.

As a historian, I would not deliberately distort the facts.

Keep in mind in the time of Jesus, he condemned the Pharisees for holding to thier OWN beliefs called the Tradition of elders.

Jesus knew full well there were many who did not accept Him. Faith is gift, and it is freely given and freely accepted.

Jesus can be known as the Messaih by Prophecy, the many miracles he performed
in particular rasing so many from the dead.

When Jesus died, the curtain inthe Temple was rent in two.

This was massive curtain, perhaps 50 feet high and 150 wide. Humans hands could not have done that.

Also, after the death ofJesus for the next 40 years, the Red Thread, which the High priest would bring it the holy of holies once per year, and which would turn white, ( signalling God had accepted the sacrifice ofg the people) never turned white again.

The Rabbi's were stumped for the next 40 years, then, the Temple came crashing to the ground.

This symbolic sequence of events is one more proof the old Temple worship religion was being replaced by the New Covenant.

In other words, the people who are or were called Jews, had rejected Jesus.

In turn God rejected these people as they were, but does and did offer them salvation in a New Covenant.

The Jews rejected Jesus, not He them.
The Jews killed Jesus, not He them.

Salvation come from Jews accepting Jesus, not Jesus accepting manmade teachings from Rabbi's.

[UnderTow]

Religion is the most successful multi-level marketing(MLM) pyramid scheme in all the world, ever.

It is a scam of power, slavery, and control.

I will be pleased when the world finally gets over it's God fallacies. Or maybe we should regress to the Gods of the Fours Winds, or the Norse Gods, and all the other Gods which have distorted and corruptted countless generations for the benefit of the few elitists, zealots, and priests who demand your life, money, and soul to their worship.

Religion, get over it.

As a Historian, I would think you would know the difference between fact and myth.

[forester]

buchenwald, (what a screen name!!!) you have absolutely no understanding of judaism. furthermore any one who truly understands the new testament understands that jesus HAD TO DIE to save the world from their sins. in that context, the small number of jews who may have brought jesus before pontius pilate were doing god's will. if the jews had not turned him in, he would not have died for your sins. but more importantly, you cannot blaim the entire jewish community back then...and certainly not of today...for christ's death. it was god's will that he be sacrificed (according to the nt), and only a small number of jews actually gave him to the romans (maybe 20??).

for you to blaim to the jews of today..and even the jews of 2,000 years ago...for christs death...is very...very...dangerous. thousands of people have been murdered because of that charge. im sure you would not want to be responcible for a jew to be attacked because of an idea you put in someones head.

judaism today...is very much like judaism from 2,000 years ago. we have the same holidays. we have the same festivals. most of the prayers are the same prayers used 1,500 years ago. and as for the word "jew" it is simply the english version of iudaean...which simply means "someone of judah".

please....read a little more before you make wild claims. and be careful when you accuse an entire nation...of Deicide.

It is entirely false to claim Judaism is the same today as it was 2000 years ago.

Judaism is a religion of the book, the Talmud. The Talmud is a compilation of Rabbinical commentaries most added post 70 ad.

The Talmud contains passages that refer to Jesus as boiling in hell in hot excrement, and many other passages that are extremely offensive to Catholics. It also talks about how 1000 gentiles are not worth even a fingernail of a Jew.

Basically, it is mostly mumbo jumbo and there are so many bizarre laws and regulations it is impossible for anyone to make heads or tails of most of it.

But getting back to the death of Jesus and the false notion that only 20 Jews killed Jesus and are responsible for his death, is patently wrong.

The Bible says that ALL Jews were calling for the death of Jesus, except a small number of his followers.

But his followers had ceased being Jews because they accepted Jesus.
The Catholic Church has always taught that all Jews share in the guilt of the death of Jesus. That is why all Catholics pray for the conversion of the perfidious Jews on Good Friday. The Church has not abbrogated those prayers.

Vatican II and its statement called Nostra Aetate is often used by Jews as a crutch to absolve the Jews of Deicide but that is not the case at all.

First, Vatican II did not define or condemn anything. It was not a dogmatic council, but rather just pastoral. It did say Anti Semitism is wrong, but that is a teaching of 2000 years, so that is not new.

Any new parts added to Vatican II are to be understood in light of the constant 2000 year teaching of the Catholic church.

The only way Jews can eliminate their guilt is via Baptism of Water, which takes away that guilt and all of their sins.

Opposition to Jews by Catholics has never been a religious or racial event. It has always been aobout Jewsih behavior. The Jews and their practices of Usary would in time bankrupt the middle class and others and this casued people to hate the actions of the Jews. 82 nations expelled them for behaviour, and this is exactly what Hitler was in the process of doing. Keeping Jews in camps until the end of the war. And then expelling them to the East. He did not want another Russia ala 1918 in his nation. Hitler shares the same legacy as 82 predesessors.

This post has been edited by buchenwald: Nov 9 2006, 06:02 PM

[Cary]

Okay buchenwald. Tone it way down, way down. You're talking about old, very old texts. The people who wrote all that are way dead. Your posts smack heavily of anti-Judaism. It will not be tolerated here.

I also happen to be a coin collector and some of my interesting pieces of currency come from Buchenwald and Auschwitz. Most people are shocked to learn there was money exchanged insdie the concentration camps.

Now, if these were deaths camps, why on earth did they have money?

I tell people they not only had money at Auschwitz, they also had 2 Orchestras, sculpture classes, schools, art classes, a theatre, swimming pool indside the prisoner area, post office ( 2 letters per month allowed), chapel ,broethel,
library, cantina, 12 kitchens, dental clinic, hospital, and soccer field.

In other words, it was a mini city. There was a crematorium, because bodies of those who died from Typhus, needed to be disposed of, and below that was the morgue.
It is the morgue that was made into a gas chamber accorindg to stories, although there is no evidecne that supports that idea. Go and look for yourself. Why would a gas chamber have a drain in the floor? or a wooden door with a glass window? and why on earth put it below a crematorium since Zyklon-B is so explosive and open flames overhead would cause a explosion.

[UnderTow]

Since when did the Holocaust become a religion.

I have enough of this.

Bunche and Forester take notice. Both of you should ignore each other from here on out.

Locking this thread.
Plea to another Mod/Admin if you wish to continue this discussion in this thread.