The Movement, Social Fears, Economy, The Future, (IOW- concrete & WTC ), merged Options

[Sanders]

perhaps you could post a history?

Several of the Admins here including Rob, painter, Cary, myself, etc., were all admins together at LC1. In a nutshell, there were some problems between us and the founder of that site. Rob had just created Pilots for 9/11 Truth and we all wound up here.

[painter]

No, I have never believed I can contact Leslie Robertson, and personally I do not need to in order to do what I am doing.

Of course you don't. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/whistle.gif)

[Christophera]

Of course you don't. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/whistle.gif)

[Christophera]

The above statement coming from someone who has not successfully brought forward independently verifiable evidence for HIS hypothesis. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/blahblah1.gif) (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/nonono.gif) (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/thumbdown.gif)

You've just succeeded in getting this thread moved to Alt.

Pot, meet kettle.

"independently verifiable evidence" Independant from what?

BTW, such is also needed for the official story regarding the steel core columns. That has not been produced ever.

I have presented numerous times INDEPENDENT VERIFICATIONS of the concrete core, are you asking for more "independently verifiable evidence" after failing to provide any from 9-11 verifying the steel core columns?

One "independent verification of evidence" I have provided is the Newsweek statement from http://web.archive.org/web/20040807085840/...com/id/3069641/
Leslie Robertson "independently verifiable evidence"? It is not reasonable to suggest that if Newsweek made a mistake that Robertson would fail to see it corrected because the information is specific to his profession and critical to legal issues.

Another is compeletely independent from that one in every way.

Another "independent verification of evidence" I have presented is the report of August Domel, Ph.d SE. PE., downloadable .pdf he published in December of 2001. His information of the concrete core came from FEMA engineers who had plans from some source at ground zero.

Other completely independent evidence is direct from images of 9-11 and ground zero and have been posted many time.

What's up? Where is gages "independent verification of evidence" justifying his belief in the official story? Where is your "independent verification of evidence" justifying your support of the official story?

This post has been edited by Christophera: Mar 8 2009, 06:48 PM

[Christophera]

But what is the topic of this thread? Which forum are we in again?

Like Sanders, I too am "dumbfounded" but hardly surprised. Chris isn't here because he is interested in P4T. About that he hasn't a clue and could obviously not care less.

You're in the right forum. If I'm not mistaken, P4T and I both stand for the truth FIRST. I do care about the planes, I don't do planes, I also can recognize priorities.

If I care about planes and want to see P4T's analysis of plane related data get the attention it deserves, I MUST see that proper authority is freed from the grips of an unholy, illegal infiltration into the United States Government FIRST so that proper technical attention of law enforcement aspects of the FAA are engaged to take appropriate actions at what ever level they are needed meaning that congressional or senatorial directive to the appropriate security organizations are to be made compeling absolute, Constitutional lawful action.

Is this acceptable logic and priority? If not, why?

We still need to see that post in my thread,

Useful Information For Truth, And How To Use It.
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....showtopic=16369

describing how the P4T study and analysis will be used in order to evaluate the usefulness of the information at this time.

This post has been edited by Christophera: Mar 8 2009, 08:04 PM

[stannrodd]

(IMG:http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj16/stannrodd/wtcsmvz8.jpg)

Chris,
You claim the core was secretly installed behind the core perimeter columns and lagged behind the upward steel
construction by four floors.

First off where did you gain this knowledge, and why isn't that knowledge reflected in this construction photo which clearly shows there was no concrete core at levels well below this four floor limit .. ?

Second you also make another claim that there is no steel framed building in existence of 100 floors because it would be too unstable and would fall down like the Tacoma Narrows suspension bridge.

Here is a photo of the John Hancock Center under construction in Chicago. It is 100 floors and is quite happy about being in the Windy City. It is still there and an icon of steel construction.

(IMG:http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj16/stannrodd/underconstructionhancocyt4.png)

Cheers

Stann

[Christophera]

Chris,
You claim the core was secretly installed behind the core perimeter columns and lagged behind the upward steel
construction by four floors.

First off where did you gain this knowledge, and why isn't that knowledge reflected in this construction photo which clearly shows there was no concrete core at levels well below this four floor limit .. ?

Second you also make another claim that there is no steel framed building in existence of 100 floors because it would be too unstable and would fall down like the Tacoma Narrows suspension bridge.

Here is a photo of the John Hancock Center under construction in Chicago. It is 100 floors and is quite happy about being in the Windy City. It is still there and an icon of steel construction.

(IMG:http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj16/stannrodd/underconstructionhancocyt4.png)

Cheers

Stann

Not relative because we don't know the foot print. It has some kind of stepping onto tapering base appendages on one axis expanding the footprint.

(IMG:http://www.richmangalleries.com/images/John-Hancock-Chicago.jpg)

Is this what you do? Constant misrepresentation, because there is no image from 9-11 that showing steel core columns in the core area, ..... in order to prevent people from understanding how 3,000 people were murdered?

The secret you protect must be kept for the perpetrators interest of evasion because people would not believe, IF THEY KNEW of the concrete core, ......... that fires and planes brought them down. People would wonder why the expected mass of large pieces of concrete were, instead of sand and gravel like we see.

Sick.

This post has been edited by Christophera: Mar 10 2009, 08:45 PM

[stannrodd]

Is this what you do? Constant misrepresentation, because there is no image from 9-11 that showing steel core columns in the core area, ..... in order to prevent people from understanding how 3,000 people were murdered?

Would you care to point out to the members what/where .. I have misrepresented .. AND .. how I have done that ..

in order to prevent people from understanding how 3000 people were murdered.

That's a fairly sinister comment Chris. Almost an accusation .. at least an insinuation .. that somehow I am involved in that outcome... ??

Are you suggesting that again Chris ??

Now about this image Chris .. what do you have to say about the obvious signs that there is no concrete core.?

(IMG:http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj16/stannrodd/wtcsmvz8.jpg)

Did someone get to the photograph and photoshop it ?

Stann

This post has been edited by stannrodd: Mar 10 2009, 10:27 PM

[Christophera]

My last post had evidence showing how you misrepresented the tower in chicago. No amount of false pretense can escape that.

Now about this image Chris .. what do you have to say about the obvious signs that there is no concrete core.?

Did someone get to the photograph and photoshop it ?

Stann

No, WTC 2's core could be poured in vertical sections enabling the steel to extend above the general top of the completed core that WTC 1 could. WTC 1 was allowed 7 floors of completed steel over the top of the concrete, WTC 2 had a 3rd wall crossing the cores short axis in the center that could be cast ahead of the rest of the core to stiffen the steel structure. In the above image that is seen as the view is of the wide side looking east. The outside of the long core wall side had a short piece of shear wall between that center wall and the hallway. That has been cast with the center wall to provide shear in a perpendicualr direction. This allowed steel to go up over that which WTC 1 could do proportionately.

You and the conspiracy to support the FEMA deception all accept the plans from silverstein that were obsolete then digitally altered, and ground zero images show they are not correct according to the 3rd floor core plan.

Recall, 2,000 innocent people were ground into little bits, and another near 1,000 rendered to pieces and the biggest thing one fire fighter found was a phone key pad. Are you trying to keep the means of doing that in 20 seconds secret?

Your assertion that there were steel core columns remains completely unevidenced from any independent tangible source. Newsweek made that article on September 13, 2001 and August Domel, Ph.d SE. PE. both independantly as well as the revised bazant et al, analysis NIST referred to.

What Did and Did Not Cause It?
Zdenek P. Bazant
1
, Hon.M. ASCE, Jia-Liang Le
2
, Frank R. Greening
3
, and David B. Benson
4
Abstract: Previous analysis of progressive collapse showed that gravity alone suffices to explain the overall collapse of the World Trade Center towers. However, it has not been checked whether the allegations of controlled demolition by planted explosives have any scientific merit. The present analysis proves that they do not. The video record available for the first few seconds of collapse agrees with the motion history calculated from the differential equation of progressive collapse but disproves the free fall hypothesis (on which the aforementioned allegations rest). Although, due to absence of experimental crushing data for the lightweight concrete used, the theory of comminution cannot predict the size range of pulverized concrete particles, it is shown that the observed size range (0.01 mm – 0.1 mm) is fully consistent with this theory and is achievable by collapse driven gravity alone, and that only about 7% of the total gravitational energy converted to kinetic energy of impacts would have sufficed to pulverize all the concrete slabs and core walls (while at least 158 tons of TNT per tower, installed into many small holes drilled into each concrete floor slab and core wall, would have been needed to produce the same degree of pulverization). The exit speed of air ejected from the building by the crushing front of gravitational collapse must have attained, near the ground, 465 mph (208 m/s) on the average, and fluctuations must have reached the speed of sound. This explains loud booms and wide spreading of pulverized concrete and glass fragments, and shows that the lower margin of dust cloud could not have coincided with the crushing front. The resisting upward forces due to pulverization and air ejection, neglected in previous studies, are found to be negligible during the first few seconds of collapse but not insignificant near the end of crush-down (these forces extended the crush-down duration by about 4%; they augmented, by about 25%, the resisting force due to column buckling at the end of crush-down, and doubled that force at the beginning of crush-up). The calculated crush down duration is found to match a logical interpretation of seismic record, while the free fall duration is found to be in conflict.


http://72.14.205.104/search q=cache:H5djFQBfSzsJ:www.civil.northwestern.edu/people/bazant/PDFs/Papers/00%2520WTC%2520Collapse%2520-%2520What%2520did%2520%26%2520Did%2520Not%2520Cause%2520It%2520-%2520Revised%25206-22-07.pdf+Bazant&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us&client=firefox-a

This is the latest paper by Bazant et al, the first one was included in the NIST report

concrete core


BTW, Bazant doesn't address free fall adequately or all the pulverized contents of the buildings but does identify how the concrete would need to be loaded with explosives in order to be rendered as it was.

This post has been edited by Christophera: Mar 11 2009, 01:05 AM

[dMz]

concrete core

When I search for that single, subjective photo (that could be dust or smoke still-captured in an instant of time), I find 3 pages of search results on 8 separate threads (and I just moved Christophera's off-topic "concrete core" posts from 2 more threads into this one recently).

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....#092;&st=50

How many people have said that single photo is inconclusive how many times now?

This looks like the appropriate thread for all this "concrete core" business that has been posted here since Nov 2007. We have seen this information before...

Christopher A's theory - Split from the welcome forum
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?showtopic=9975

Frankly, this is approaching the forum definition of SPAM at this point over 1 year later.

[painter]

Frankly, this is approaching the forum definition of SPAM at this point over 1 year later.

I agree. And it doesn't belong in "Debate" -- it belongs in Alt Theories.

[Christophera]

I agree. And it doesn't belong in "Debate" -- it belongs in Alt Theories.

Well really it was not a alt theories thread, or a debate thread, it was general commentary, rant on conditions that I felt fit the lobby best.

Before it trades places with the thread over there, that is being moved over here, can you respond to this question regarding "acceptable logic and priority", or usefulness of information and processes of seeing that the P4T information applied to a proper inquiry in the, eventual future investigation. I aim to see that P4T analysis put to use in guiding a real investigation of aircraft, however currently, no official action can be compelled with that information. As you may know I have information which logically can be used to compel official action of some kind, if acted on by a group motivated to do so with a full undertanding of the evidence and reasoning of it. Eventually, with momentum, the flight analysis will play a large role in deciphering movements in the sky.

If I care about planes and want to see P4T's analysis of plane related data get the attention it deserves, I MUST see that proper authority is freed from the grips of an unholy, illegal infiltration into the United States Government FIRST so that proper technical attention of law enforcement aspects of the FAA are engaged to take appropriate actions at what ever level they are needed meaning that congressional or senatorial directive to the appropriate security organizations are to be made compeling absolute, Constitutional lawful action.

Is this acceptable logic and priority? If not, why?

We still need to see that post in my thread,

Useful Information For Truth, And How To Use It.
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....showtopic=16369

describing how the P4T study and analysis will be used in order to evaluate the usefulness of the information at this time.

This post has been edited by Christophera: Mar 11 2009, 12:57 PM

[Christophera]

This looks like the appropriate thread for all this "concrete core" business that has been posted here since Nov 2007. We have seen this information before...

Christopher A's theory - Split from the welcome forum
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?showtopic=9975

Frankly, this is approaching the forum definition of SPAM at this point over 1 year later.

Really, I just keep steering the discussions back on topic but evidence does not seem to have weight here.

[Christophera]

I've asked painter to post how the use of the P4T flight study and analysis of planes can be used, over here.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....&p=10767310

Before the thread was moved from Alt theories to Debate. But it didn't get an answer, now the thread is merged and chopped up not even having a proper page sequence or current poster display, so I'm hoping for one here.

I believe the information to be useful in gaining more truth, but not under current conditions. I hope to change conditions and make it possible to compel consideration of the study by the FAA and expose the official plane account as false. It seems information that directly implies widespread conspiracy directly related to what is termed an attack, causes more cognitive dissonance than information that does not relate in a way requiring an assumption of conspiracy as a first thought, is more readily accepted. Under these conditions, when government will not follow laws, the people, are who must be compelled to take action.

Accordingly things that are not based on a claim of invalid analysis of technical or confidential information held by government controlled agencies, stand a better chance. If an analysis can be logically be proven to be invalid or completely flawed by a simple conclusion which the average person can easily do with given information, then it is more likely they will be ready to act with other citizens.

I consider the fact of the deception by FEMA to NIST regarding the structure of the Twins to be that kind of information. The information of the concrete core is in the publics possession of images from 9-11 that show concrete walls surrounding the core area. Never are steel core columns seen as FEMA stated to NIST existed.

The fact that NIST was deceived by FEMA completely invalidates the analysis of the direct cause of death of nearly 3,000 people as being the collapse of the towers. Citizens from many capacities have the ability to recognize concrete structures and differentiate from steel structure. Of course, doing so means that they should take a stand, and citizens seem prepared to just let the entire event disappear into history as a mystery. So, if they have to depend on powerful government agencies to re evaluate data in order to see justice, they are not so inclined to take a stand for justice as they might be if all they had to do was recognize concrete standing as the core walls and core structure while they observe that there is no structural steel in the core area as FEMA says there was.

Another fact is that no researcher has ever provided a feasible description of HOW the supposed steel core columns were cut to accommodate free fall. This is needed because free fall basically happened, to the ground twice.

Alternatively, people can understand that concrete can be instantly fractured to fall freely by a small amount of explosives that are properly placed.

In conclusion, there are only 2 pieces of information that are very useful in gaining more truth, the concrete core, and that fact that underground explosions are known to have happened before plane impacts by comparison of FAA flight times and seismic records. Between those 2, the explosions require immediate acceptance of a somewhat elaborate conspiracy to plant explosives and detonate them just before plane impact, then for the 9-11 commission to ignore them. The structural information deception by FEMA is not so volatile and a logical prerequisite the citizen can easily accept for a competent evaluation of collapse. The citizen can also easily see that an inquiry into the deception by FEMA is all that is needed to determine the true structural design justifying another, but valid analysis of how the buildings came down.

It is one thing to have information, it is another to have a meaningful use for it ready to go.

Logically, the fact of the ease of use of the core deception by FEMA makes it a target for the post 9-11 psyops disinformation campaign and massive gatekeeping by the pre positioned quasi or false leadership of the truth movement.

This post has been edited by Christophera: Mar 13 2009, 01:30 AM

[lunk]

As there is no complaints department,
we must make one, ourselves.

What is everyone supposed to do,
once we all know?
Knowing, that 9/11 was an inside or outsourced false flag, alone,
is only the start.
The eating machine that was sent to the Middle East, because of it,
is coming back here.
It's almost fully automated, it doesn't need many people to operate it, anymore.
To know, and not try to stop it, is acquiescing to it.

...I'm thinking, I'm thinking

lunk

[GroundPounder]

As there is no complaints department,
we must make one, ourselves.

What is everyone supposed to do,
once we all know?
Knowing, that 9/11 was an inside or outsourced false flag, alone,
is only the start.
The eating machine that was sent to the Middle East, because of it,
is coming back here.
It's almost fully automated, it doesn't need many people to operate it, anymore.
To know, and not try to stop it, is acquiescing to it.

...I'm thinking, I'm thinking

lunk

and an eating machine it is...

[CaptBill46]

As there is no complaints department,
we must make one, ourselves.

What is everyone supposed to do,
once we all know?
Knowing, that 9/11 was an inside or outsourced false flag, alone,
is only the start.
The eating machine that was sent to the Middle East, because of it,
is coming back here.
It's almost fully automated, it doesn't need many people to operate it, anymore.
To know, and not try to stop it, is acquiescing to it.

...I'm thinking, I'm thinking

lunk

An eating machine it is indeed. 9/11 seems to be getting a bit stale in the public mind--fear level is slipping a bit. Makes me wonder what they have planned next. The BIG reason to pursue 9/11 truth, as I see it, is to break the cycle of one false-flag event after another through the decades. Every time one succeeds without any timely exposure or civil rebellion over it, the next one gets easier and more inevitable. I knew 9/11 was an inside job from the moment I saw that first CNN video of the plane hitting the South tower. As a pilot, I know the procedures, NORAD, FAA, etc... and I knew it simply could not happen without massive cooperation and assistance of every government agency involved. That's a given.
But I think Christophera is right. For us pilots, the aircraft angle of 9/11 is so clear, but it is very technical and sciency and all that and hard for the average citizen to grasp. The concrete core thing is real simple. Just ask anybody in Walmart if burning kerosene can melt concrete. They can understand that the official story is a big lie without understanding Vmo or Radar Altitude, etc... That's why I like his approach to the issue of getting the general public involved.

[painter]

The concrete core thing is real simple. Just ask anybody in Walmart if burning kerosene can melt concrete.

Welcome to the forum, CaptBill.

Burning kerosene can't melt steel, either, and I don't think you need to be a Walmart genus to understand or figure that out.

But any case, the "concrete core" hypothesis is just that except for a few die-hard believers like Chris who have yet to provide verifiable evidence for it to the rest of us.

[Christophera]

An eating machine it is indeed. 9/11 seems to be getting a bit stale in the public mind--fear level is slipping a bit. Makes me wonder what they have planned next. The BIG reason to pursue 9/11 truth, as I see it, is to break the cycle of one false-flag event after another through the decades. Every time one succeeds without any timely exposure or civil rebellion over it, the next one gets easier and more inevitable. I knew 9/11 was an inside job from the moment I saw that first CNN video of the plane hitting the South tower. As a pilot, I know the procedures, NORAD, FAA, etc... and I knew it simply could not happen without massive cooperation and assistance of every government agency involved. That's a given.
But I think Christophera is right. For us pilots, the aircraft angle of 9/11 is so clear, but it is very technical and sciency and all that and hard for the average citizen to grasp. The concrete core thing is real simple. Just ask anybody in Walmart if burning kerosene can melt concrete. They can understand that the official story is a big lie without understanding Vmo or Radar Altitude, etc... That's why I like his approach to the issue of getting the general public involved.

Yep, thats what I see. When a large group of truth seekers get sick of the merry go round and dog & pony show, and simply say, "No steel columns are shown, but massive pieces of what can only be concrete are shown, and all that circumstance showing a potential deception about the structure indicate the analysis of the cause of death was sabotaged." all this while basically knowing concrete can be easily fractured to fall freely with properly placed high explosives, suddenly a clear path to a coherent demand is justified. The demand is simply to fulfill the compulsory analysis of the cause of death based on reasonable, logical suspicion with supporting evidence.

[albertchampion]

i care to reiterate....the concrete core is irrelevant. let it go.

for this site, the issue continues to be the aircraft. the utilization of the aircraft. the seizures[sic] of the aircraft.

and how the northeast corridor was managed that day. so as to prevent mid-air collisions. the undiscussed story.

and why irrelevant buildings were targeted instead of strategic targets. that remains the salient issue. why worthless skyscrapers?

and those other issues: just assuming that aa77 was really engaged in the program, why were the sams in the catoctins ordered to stand down? and who ordered that stand-down?

similarly, this other unrevealed answer to a valid question: who ordered a military exercise rescheduled from an october event to a september event?

do any of you on this board know?

also, why was it that military pilots told us that they flew at flank speed to make intercepts, when in fact they did not. and why have their prevarications gone unpunished?

what happened to the real controller tapes? there is one story that they were destroyed by a supervisor. and then, remarkably, they were published in an article in the atlantic[an article that i regard as a compilation of frauds].

as time runs, most citizens forget the lies that stampeded them to divest themselves of their assets.

and probably accept ari fleischer's grotesque prevarication....that saddam hussein was responsible for the events of that day.

can you believe that this level of deceit is still able to be promulgated?

in the land of the blind the one-eyed individual is king. not true. in this land of the blind, the one-eyed individual wants a shotgun. wants to place it in the mouth. and become exterminated. because there are really no ears for truth..........

BANG!