Gate Lat/long Debate - Aa77, split from Latest News Options

[LaBTop]

mod edit: this thread split from here http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10797171



I found your post, where this remark has put me on the wrong foot, or has it some chance of being possible at all?
As one of your pilots in the same post said, the first thing we do in the morning, is align the plane to its present position, since it could have been towed to another gate, with engines off.

-- snip --
Some anonymous detractors have also argued that the "Present Position" input by the pilots may have been the Airport Position found on the Airport Diagram Chart (instead of the actual gate position, thereby, not following procedure at American Airlines). This is the Airport Lat/Long from the Jeppesen "10-9/9A" chart.

(IMG:http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f178/myphotos1960/Dulles_Airport_Position.jpg)

As you can see, it's pretty darn close to gate D26.

-- snip--

You said that it was pretty darn close to gate D26. Where is gate D26 on that above map then?
What still confuses me, I did not see two pins on that Google Map, only one yellow pin, so I thought you showed two Long/Lat positions which overlapped eachother.

[rob balsamo]

I found your post, where this remark has put me on the wrong foot, or has it some chance of being possible at all?
As one of your pilots in the same post said, the first thing we do in the morning, is align the plane to its present position, since it could have been towed to another gate, with engines off.



You said that it was pretty darn close to gate D26. Where is gate D26 on that above map then?
What still confuses me, I did not see two pins on that Google Map, only one yellow pin, so I thought you showed two Long/Lat positions which overlapped eachother.

Labtop,

You really need to slow down and read before you engage your fingers. The picture you referenced is regarding airport lat/long from the IAD Airport Diagram.

Read the post above yours and click on the link I provided.

I also highly recommend that you take everything you read on ATS with a grain of salt. The "pilots" who claim to be their resident experts are notoriously wrong. They are there to sow confusion. That is why they will never debate a real and verified pilot and why they refuse to put their name to their claims.

[LaBTop]

Labtop,

You really need to slow down and read before you engage your fingers. The picture you referenced is regarding airport lat/long from the IAD Airport Diagram.

Read the post above yours and click on the link I provided.

I also highly recommend that you take everything you read on ATS with a grain of salt. The "pilots" who claim to be their resident experts are notoriously wrong. They are there to sow confusion. That is why they will never debate a real and verified pilot and why they refuse to put their name to their claims.

Yes, but the text around that picture says that gate 26 is darn near that IAD long/lat point, which I still can not compare, I see only one yellow pin on that map. Please tell me if the two points overlap, or where the IAD point then is situated.

I have clicked that link you provided directly, and used my pair of compasses and a ruler, to try to fit that blue "line" into its right place, placing the lower blue leg on the most southern runway, and then, all that I try, it does not fit into one of the terminal access ramps their turning corners. I blew up your picture by using CTRL/+ repeatedly.
There are two turning corners, the most southern one seems to fit the best.
But I thought gate 26 was situated on the north side of the terminal.
Is there something missing in that diagram? Did the IRS not register a few data-points? Because perhaps the pilots were entering new coordinates in a fast, 30 secs realignment procedure?

Btw, I do emphasize for other readers, that we still assume here, that two real AAL pilots were in the cockpit when AA 77 took off from that runway. Because that's what the official version of events tell us.

However, regarding all the evidence laid before us in this thread, it looks as if we are following two different pilots, from an unknown airline or the military, who took a 757 or other type of plane, on a copy-cat tour to the Pentagon, to fix a reasonable believable FDR for some nagging FOIA requests.

PS: gonna try to post my calculations answer in my "impact" thread.
Lost 3 weeks, 18 pages of work on fitting calculations into this forum software, and I don't know why that happened. So I took a few days off, and then decided to post a more compressed form of those pages, since everybody seems to live in the fast lane here and abhor long posts, I have to get acquainted to that.

[rob balsamo]

Yes, but the text around that picture says that gate 26 is darn near that IAD long/lat point, which I still can not compare,

Click, read and learn 7 posts past the one you sourced.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10795900

I see only one yellow pin on that map.

You see a Yellow pin and a Crosshairs box.

Please tell me if the two points overlap, or where the IAD point then is situated.

When you input a lat/long into Google Earth, a crosshairs box shows up and it zooms into the point on the map. You can then "bookmark" the crosshairs box with a pin and label that pin. Which is exactly what i did. They overlap.

I have clicked that link you provided directly, and used my pair of compasses and a ruler, to try to fit that blue "line" into its right place, placing the lower blue leg on the most southern runway, and then, all that I try, it does not fit into one of the terminal access ramps their turning corners. I blew up your picture by using CTRL/+ repeatedly.

Works for me.

But I thought gate 26 was situated on the north side of the terminal.

You thought wrong.

Btw, I do emphasize for other readers, that we still assume here, that two real AAL pilots were in the cockpit when AA 77 took off from that runway. Because that's what the official version of events tell us.

"We" dont "assume" anything. You assume. We require evidence.

So far, the evidence presented shows the data did not come from an American Airlines 757, nor "Aa77", nor an aircraft which departed gate D26, nor does it support an impact with the Pentagon.

Let us know when you have anything other than "assumption".

[elreb]

(IMG:http://mindsetmaster.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/assume-nothing.png) Sorry…it is in my nature…

[LaBTop]

""You see a Yellow pin and a Crosshairs box.
They overlap.""
Fine, that's what I needed to know, thus, what reason are we giving the opposition that the scenario which they offered with the wrong Long/Lat coordinates fed into the IRS, is impossible? Remember, gate D26 differs only one digit with the other higher numbered gates.
.22 instead of .23
The cross hair and the pin cover gate D26, so to see.



"" Works for me.""

Not for me. Please do not trust Google Earth for precise measurements. If you use your pair of compasses, and take as many orientation points on your blue lines, you always end up nearly exactly at gate D26, to the SOUTH of that Terminal. Put your two compass leg points in the center of each blue square you are measuring.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pics/INS_IAD.jpg
Use your own picture please, and blow it up as big as you want (CTRL/+), you always end up at, or near gate D26. And for sure south of the terminal, and not north, as you depict in your adjusted INS_IAD.jpg.


Quote : You thought wrong.""
I agree, gate D26 lays on the southwestern point of that terminal. South of that terminal.


Quote : "We" don't "assume" anything. You assume. We require evidence.
So far, the evidence presented shows the data did not come from an American Airlines 757, nor "AA77", nor an aircraft which departed gate D26, nor does it support an impact with the Pentagon.
Let us know when you have anything other than "assumption". ""

Let me know if you have a pair of compasses, and used it. Never assume Google Earth is right, never assume anyone is right, always double or triple check your data. Trigonometry with your own hands still beats Google Earth.
Is my proposal for an impact trajectory really not viable with the witnesses? I think I gave quite a lot of information in those courses, so anyone with some math background can calculate for themselves if what I proposed is viable. All witnesses reported a level flying, Route 27 crossing plane. Your flight path shows a 28° angled right banking plane crossing Route 27, mine a level plane.
See http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10797151

[elreb]

The way elreb sees it…is you have teachers, students and observers.

To some degree, I am “all of the above”…depending on the subject.

Teachers…teach…

Students learn…

Observers…evaluate…

I would give “Rob Balsamo” a value of 95% correctness…

Proclaim yourself as a “New-Bee” or an “old timer”…

A low/hi posting account does not automatically giving you creditability…or the right to cast dirt…

Some would agree…”We like to kick our own dirt”.

[rob balsamo]

""You see a Yellow pin and a Crosshairs box.
They overlap.""
Fine, that's what I needed to know, thus, what reason are we giving the opposition that the scenario which they offered with the wrong Long/Lat coordinates fed into the IRS, is impossible?

Is the "opposition" claiming that 12 different sets of Flight Crew have input the wrong IRS Gate position into their IRS? From what I have read, the "opposition" claims that all 12 flights in the data are in "error" and offset.

Are you even familiar with the argument? Clearly not.

Read more here with respect to American Airlines procedures since it's clear you havent.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10795898

The cross hair and the pin cover gate D26, so to see.

No, it doesnt. The crosshair box and pin cover the Airport Reference Point and is corroborated by the Crosshairs on the Jeppesen airport Diagram used by pilots daily. You would know this if you clicked the links I provided.

Since you refuse to click and learn, here is a more direct link.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10795900

Be sure to read the bolded text on the bottom of the above linked post.

Not for me. Please do not trust Google Earth for precise measurements.

Looks pretty precise to me when comparing Jeppesen IAD 20-9/9A to GE Lat/Long.

If you use your pair of compasses, and take as many orientation points on your blue lines, you always end up nearly exactly at gate D26, to the SOUTH of that Terminal. Put your two compass leg points in the center of each blue square you are measuring.

Once again you demonstrate the fact you do not read nor learn before you engage your fingers, as this is what it looks like when adjusted for gate D26.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pics/IAD_Adjust_D26.jpg

Source - http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10795504


This is what it looks like when trying to adjust the error/offset to D26 and something close to runway/taxiways.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10795507

I agree, gate D26 lays on the southwestern point of that terminal. South of that terminal.

Glad you finally figured it out after I had to point out that you were wrong and provide the link for you.

The rest of your post is redundant and answered with the above.

LaBTop, there is an old saying in aviation, "A little knowledge is more dangerous than having none".

You have a small amount of knowledge trying to cram it into your bias (or perhaps agenda).

Thanks goodness you do not fly an aircraft.

LaBTop, let us know when you find one pilot that will depart with a more than 3000 foot error on their IRS. So far, not one has come forward. And if you knew actual procedure, you will understand how absurd you sound when you claim such an error would go unnoticed for one flight, let alone 12 (as claimed by the "opposition").

The data did not come from an American Airlines 757, nor any aircraft described as "AA77", nor any aircraft which departed Gate D26, nor does the data support an impact with the Pentagon.

[LaBTop]

Is the "opposition" claiming that 12 different sets of Flight Crew have input the wrong IRS Gate position into their IRS? From what I have read, the "opposition" claims that all 12 flights in the data are in "error" and offset.

Are you even familiar with the argument? Clearly not.
Read more here with respect to American Airlines procedures since it's clear you havent.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10795898

You YOURSELF was the one bringing up the oppositions ONLY defense argument up till now, not me. I asked you politely what answer we give them to their argument, and you start attacking ME.
Strange behavior, in my opinion.
For the record, I do never read the J.REF forums anymore, already for 6 years, since in my opinion, it is a very bad forum.
You also seem to miss many little hints, like when I said in the last sentence of that post that I personally do not believe in such a scenario.
But you have to be prepared, to counter their arguments immediately, when they come up with them in other forums then their own rats nest. Sadly, I see the same strange J.REF-groupies behavior from some of your members.


No, it doesnt. The crosshair box and pin cover the Airport Reference Point and is corroborated by the Crosshairs on the Jeppesen airport Diagram used by pilots daily. You would know this if you clicked the links I provided.
Since you refuse to click and learn, here is a more direct link.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10795900

Be sure to read the bolded text on the bottom of the above linked post.

I have them all open in different tabs. Your picture in your posts #53 and #60 puts that crosshair and yellow pin seemingly within a few meters of the D26 gate. Am I blind, or are we both blind? And what do you think others, with no 911 background will see too? They will see the same as me, a square with a crosshair and a pin nearly at the same spot as that famous gate D26.
And our opposition is using a sick and stupid argument to try to oppose the evidence laid out here.
That two pilots would both make the same mistake, and 12 others before them.
No real AAL pilots would both make such a mistake when entering their cockpit and starting their boarding procedures. And never ever 12 times in a row.
But you have to answer their stupid arguments, because we have to convince all the other, new and older readers of our forums, that they use stupid arguments, and of course I know that it is a senile argument which they use to try to convince others, that 12 pilots were 12 monkeys. I know that, but do these other readers with no aeronautical interest or background know that? Probably not, so we have to offer the iron-clad arguments that will help them to defend themselves in other forums and blogs, and thus help them spreading the TRUTH. Towards multiple other truth seekers.


Looks pretty precise to me when comparing Jeppesen IAD 20-9/9A to GE Lat/Long.
Once again you demonstrate the fact you do not read nor learn before you engage your fingers, as this is what it looks like when adjusted for gate D26.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pics/IAD_Adjust_D26.jpg

Source - http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10795504

Did you even try what I did on your own picture with the shifted taxi and runway trajectory? The one projected on that Google Map of Dulles. Use your compasses. It does not fit. You end up SOUTH of the terminal. At all possible reference points.
You used in both cases features of Google Maps. Those are not precise features. Use your own fingers and a compass.


Glad you finally figured it out after I had to point out that you were wrong and provide the link for you.
The rest of your post is redundant and answered with the above.
LaBTop, there is an old saying in aviation, "A little knowledge is more dangerous than having none".
You have a small amount of knowledge trying to cram it into your bias (or perhaps agenda).
Thanks goodness you do not fly an aircraft.
LaBTop, let us know when you find one pilot that will depart with a more than 3000 foot error on their IRS. So far, not one has come forward. And if you knew actual procedure, you will understand how absurd you sound when you claim such an error would go unnoticed for one flight, let alone 12 (as claimed by the "opposition").

Are you making things up now? Where did I claim that? You yourself came up with that argument from the opposition in post #53 and #60!
I am really asking myself why you act in this manner. I do my best to tell everybody here that I believe in the same things as you people, but since I seem to have hit a red hot nerve with my believe that an impact is not at all out of order in the whole Pentagon attack scenario, most of you seem to have declared me as the enemy within the walls. Try to reread my posts with a calm mind, and the overall message I try to send will come through perhaps. I stand beside you, but not all the way. Big deal, so what? We will see in time, if new evidence will surface, and who is right on a fly-over or an impact.
And of course I do not believe one second that over 12 flights "recorded" in that falsified FDR, not one time a pilot did refresh his IRS. But the devils advocate argument I brought up, will need to be addressed in a understandable manner.

The data did not come from an American Airlines 757, nor any aircraft described as "AA77", nor any aircraft which departed Gate D26, nor does the data support an impact with the Pentagon.

[LaBTop]

For the record, I used my pair of compasses on this link you gave me :
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pics/INS_IAD.jpg

(IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pics/INS_IAD.jpg)

The first taxiing moves are south of the terminal. But not departing from D26, which is at the south end of that building. But it departed from a gate more to the right. D24 or D20.
If I do understand you right, you say that the plane left from a gate at the north side of that terminal building, according to this picture you posted for me :
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pics/INS_IAD_Adjust.jpg

(IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pics/INS_IAD_Adjust.jpg)

You really have to use a pair of compasses, then you will see what I mean.
It looks to me that you have fallen victim to a bug in the Google Earth program.

[LaBTop]

You used different eye altitudes : 15933 (new drawing adjusted) and 13664 (old drawing).
That distorts your original shifted taxiing trajectory. It expands it.
Bringing both Google Earth pictures to the same eye alt of 13664 should correct the problem.

If you do not have a pair of compasses at hand, just hold a thin paper over the 13664 picture,
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pics/INS_IAD.jpg
then draw the blue lines over on that paper and then place the runway line on the runway. Voila, plane taxiing away from gate D20.
That's called a triple check.

[rob balsamo]

snipped irrelevant and twisted rant...

[b]I have them all open in different tabs. Your picture in your posts #53 and #60 puts that crosshair and yellow pin seemingly within a few meters of the D26 gate. Am I blind, or are we both blind? And what do you think others, with no 911 background will see too? They will see the same as me, a square with a crosshair and a pin nearly at the same spot as that famous gate D26.

The crosshair and pin are lat/long from the Jeppesen Airport Diagram. It is very close to gate D26.

Click the link i gave you.

You claimed that the lat/long "very near to D26" was data from "AA77 as officials tell us". You were wrong.

You dont even understand your own argument?

And our opposition is using a sick and stupid argument to try to oppose the evidence laid out here.
That two pilots would both make the same mistake, and 12 others before them.

Can you please quote and source who of our "opposition" specifically has claimed that "..two pilots would both make the same mistake, and 12 others before them."?

I have never read such a claim.

The "opposition" claims that "AA77" can realign the IRS NAV data in flight and that pilots do not align the Present Position at the gate. They are wrong as pointed out repeatedly in this very thread.

Again, not only do you not understand the information, but you also are not even familiar with the arguments being made.

No real AAL pilots would both make such a mistake when entering their cockpit and starting their boarding procedures. And never ever 12 times in a row.

Then why is the lat/long data in error/offset of more than 3000 feet?

Answer - Because the data is not from an American Airlines 757.

I know that, but do these other readers with no aeronautical interest or background know that? Probably not,

These people know that...

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/core

Did you forget which forum you are on?

Did you even try what I did on your own picture with the shifted taxi and runway trajectory? The one projected on that Google Map of Dulles. Use your compasses. It does not fit. You end up SOUTH of the terminal. At all possible reference points.
You used in both cases features of Google Maps. Those are not precise features. Use your own fingers and a compass.

For the second time...

This is what it looks like when trying to adjust the error/offset to D26 and something close to runway/taxiways.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...;#entry10795507


LaBTop, please try to learn how to use the quote feature of this forum. It's not that difficult.

[rob balsamo]

You used different eye altitudes : 15933 (new drawing adjusted) and 13664 (old drawing).
That distorts your original shifted taxiing trajectory. It expands it.
Bringing both Google Earth pictures to the same eye alt of 13664 should correct the problem.
.

Since it's clear you dont understand what I'm trying to tell you, perhaps you will learn from others.

Click and learn.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...=21125&st=0

Here is tume's lat/long plot from landing the night before to taxi in the morning.

(IMG:http://xmarinx.sweb.cz/situation1.png)

Then get the data yourself from the download links in the OP, plot the Lat/long, and show us how it aligns with D26, Taxiways, and runway.

First LaBTop claims -

Use your own picture please, and blow it up as big as you want (CTRL/+), you always end up at, or near gate D26.

Then he claims...

then draw the blue lines over on that paper and then place the runway line on the runway. Voila, plane taxiing away from gate D20.

(IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

You are so lost LaBTop, it would be hilarious if not so sad.

You've mucked up this thread enough. Enjoy your vacation. Take the time off to actually study the information and come back with some knowledge of the topic.

[amazed!]

LaBTop you're funny.

Eye level? WTF Dude?

Who really cares about eye level except you?

Nadie.

Trivia is fun, but larger questions quickly loom, like why is the coverup under so much pressure?

Or, "what would happen if the truth was learned by the vast majority of the population?"

Hope you stick around.... (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/pilotfly.gif)