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Pilots For 9/11 Truth Forum _ Debate _ The Sliming Of Pilots For 9/11 Truth And Citizen Investigation Team

Posted by: painter Aug 7 2009, 01:05 PM

First, as most of you know, I'm not around much any more. That isn't to be taken as an abandonment of the ship. I'm just trying to bring some badly needed balance back into my life after years of neglecting necessities such as finances, not to mention my physical and mental health. I'm limiting my on-line time and my involvement in political issues of any sort.

That said, it was recently brought to my attention that Michael Wolsey of Colorado 9/11 Visibility, 911truth.org, and visibility911.com and well known researcher Jim Hoffman of 911research.wtc7.net (among others) have publicly stated that Pilots for 9/11 Truth and Citizen Investigation Team are, and I quote, "a coordinated disinformation campaign" with the purpose of dividing the 9-11 movement and discrediting it with "some of the worst, most speculative and ridiculous theories about what happened on 9-11."

On August 4, 2009, Wolsey posted a lengthy introduction to a recorded MP3 interview with Hoffman conducted some time earlier. The on-line post can be found here: http://visibility911.com/blog/?p=1351 and here is a direct link to the MP3 interview: http://media.libsyn.com/media/visibility911/visibility911_hoffman_cit.mp3

I am opening this thread in the debate section because I hope that it will give everyone concerned an opportunity to publicly explore this accusation regarding the purpose and nature of Pilots for Truth and Citizen Investigation Team. The debate forum is visible to guests and can be posted in by any registered member who follows the requirements listed below:

First Anyone posting in this thread MUST have READ the above link, LISTENED to the above linked MP3 and, finally, READ this July 2009 post by Jim Hoffman, entitled "http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pentacon/index.html. I also strongly suggest that anyone reading Hoffman's critique follow some of the numerous links out from that page to other supporting material.

In the above link, Wosley writes:

QUOTE (Michael Wolsey)
One of the main goals we have at Visibility 9-11 is to educate our listeners and ourselves about all aspects of the September 11th tragedy. To this end, we are taking on a more active role in addressing this important issue. In fact, we believe the issue of disinformation to be the most important issue that each of us face as 9-11 activists. As blogger Arabesque has pointed out many times, the “Official Story” is itself disinformation and must be regarded as such. Ultimately, we are the ones in the street and on the blogs and forums who will have to face the ridicule if our facts are not straight and if we are to be successful, we must learn to identify the disinformation and insert caution into your activism.

As pointed out by my guest on this program, it is agreed that central to the various themes of disinformation are the “no jetliner” claims, especially the “no 757? claims for the attack on the Pentagon. In spite of substantial resources being poured into books and videos which claim that there was no airliner crash at the Pentagon on 9-11, Jim Hoffman has http://911review.com/errors/pentagon/index.html. Careful examination of Jim’s work reveals a different picture of the Pentagon attack than the “no jetliner” advocates. We at Visibility 9-11 acknowledge that there are http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/analysis/theories/index.html for us to believe the “no jetliner” claims. However, a closer look reveals the real possibility that the event at the Pentagon has been manipulated from the start through the use of “official” and un-offical sources.

This program takes a closer look at “Citizen Investigation Team” (CIT) and it’s biggest promoter Pilots for 9-11 Truth and their latest effort to advance the “no jetliner” theory. Their new video, http://www.citizeninvestigationteam.com/nsa.html, which is being aggressively promoted on the internet and at public events, alleges that not only did the Boeing jet not strike the Pentagon, but flew over it at the last minute in an elaborate deception that not a single witness has claimed to see, and, contradicts the testimony of hundreds of eyewitnesses in the area.

I certainly agree with Wolsey, Hoffman and many others that DISINFORMATION (defined as the intentional dissemination of false and inaccurate information) has been present in various forms from the outset of the 9/11 event, that it has played and continues to play a debilitating role in the process of both uncovering the truth about 9/11 and disseminating that truth to the wider world beyond the 9/11 Movement. However, I strongly disagree that Pilots for 9/11 Truth and Citizen Investigation Team are "a coordinated disinformation campaign." I am opening this thread here in the hopes that Michael Wolsey, Jim Hoffman and others will at least see it and participate in it directly. I will make an effort to inform them of its existence.

MOREOVER I strongly request that participants in this thread, whether long-time P4T or CIT members or new members KEEP IT CIVIL AND ON POINT. That means NO NAME CALLING and NO PERSONAL ATTACKS. I prefer that there not even be an inference of a personal attack. If you find yourself feeling angry and wishing to say something that does not speak directly to one of the many issues that could be covered in this thread, REFRAIN FROM POSTING AT ALL until you have cooled down and given cooler thought to what it is you are saying.

My hope is that by airing our differences publicly and civilly this thread will begin to bridge the divide that has existed FAR TOO LONG within the 9/11 Truth community between those who, based on their respective research, firmly believe that Flight 77 DID hit the Pentagon (or at least could have) and those who believe it DID NOT (and could not have).

Thank you for your consideration,

Michael Wells : aka painter

Posted by: rob balsamo Aug 7 2009, 07:51 PM

yawn...

Yet another attack campaign. Its not the first, certainly wont be the last.

The only people attempting "divide" are those who coordinate such frivolous attacks.

They only end up discrediting themselves.

Meanwhile, we bring our concerns to court.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pentagon_lawsuit.html

Heres a good speech done by Dave vonKliest a few years ago.. it still holds true today...

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?showtopic=4427

"When you see or hear an accusatory finger, it’s time to look at the finger instead of the direction it’s pointing."

Posted by: aerohead Aug 7 2009, 08:16 PM

I totally agree Rob,

Real truthers try to educate each other and
promote unity. All the groups together CAN
get it done. I truely believe this and i am catching
hell for trying to fight the machine. People want to
believe the lie, rather than face a hard truth.

What happened at the Pentagon is so unbelievable
that it blows peoples minds, and they label it disinfo
almost immediately. And unless you have been in
aviation for awhile, you would have a hard time wrapping
your head around it. Which i suppose was the intention and
a very effective one at that.

I trust the work that CIT has done.
It the government didnt have anything to hide,
they would release all the video.

-Aero

Posted by: Ligon Aug 7 2009, 08:22 PM

I sent Michael Wolsey this e-mail on Aug 4:

QUOTE
If you're calling CIT disinfo you need to either stop or debate them Michael. They're not disinfo.

You've been formally challenged by Craig.
http://z3.invisionfree.com/CIT/index.php?showtopic=662

Alternatively, their phone number is on their website, www.CitizenInvestigationTeam.com, in the contact section; call them and talk to them privately if you'd prefer. Either way it's ridiculous for you to sit there and talk badly about them or the evidence they present when they're so accessible. If you're a real truther you'll talk to them about why you disagree. I e-mailed Jim Hoffman a year ago and made the same plea and he ignored me. Are you a coward and fraud like him? I hope not. We'll see though.

P.S. You can talk to me on the phone too if you'd like. Just ask for my number and I'll give it to you. If we're all really on the same team here you need to act like it.

I got this response from ford@visibility911.com, probably automated:

QUOTE
"Thank you for contacting us at Visibility 9-11. We will get back to you shortly."


Three days so far and no response, no retractions, as predicted.

Posted by: Sanders Aug 7 2009, 09:07 PM

QUOTE
1. The only meaningful eyewitness accounts are those taken by CIT, and the only valid elements of those are the ones that support their theory.
2. A jetliner did not crash at the Pentagon, and all of the apparent impact damage to the surroundings and building, and the plane debris, passenger DNA identification, etc. was faked.
3. The jetliner observed approaching the Pentagon and appearing to crash into it actually overflew the building.

Presumption 1 has been exposed, perhaps most thoroughly, by Arabesque in a series of articles including A Critical Review of 'The PentaCon - Smoking Gun Version'.

Presumption 2 is the subject of my earlier essay The Pentagon Attack: What the Physical Evidence Shows. If you have been persuaded against the crash of a 757 by the paucity of plane parts in post-crash photos, as was I, this article is for you.

Presumption 3 is the subject of this essay. In it, I will show that the flyover theory isn't even remotely plausible, primarily because it would have been observed by hundreds of people around the Pentagon.


'The PentaCon has it all -- from the unlikely accomplice (an elderly cabbie) to the greatest aeronautical feat of all time. Get yours while supplies [of credulity] last!'
Apart from the presumption that a jetliner couldn't have crashed into the Pentagon, The PentaCon's entire case for the overflight rests on interviews with a handful of witnesses who recalled seeing the plane approach to the north of the Citgo gas station located directly west-southwest of the crash site. Such a flight trajectory is about 15 degrees clockwise of the "official" one indicated by the downed light poles, damage to objects in the construction yard, and the path of debris through the building.

Never mind that the same witnesses claim to have seen the plane crash into the building, or that the CIT's premier witness Lagasse seems to infer the north-of-the-station trajectory from his mistaken placement of the downed light poles. And never mind the scores of other witnesses, and what they have said or might be able to tell us about their recollection of the plane's final approach. To the end of focusing on the overflight in this essay, I will overlook CIT's thoroughly unscientific treatment of witness accounts, and I will ignore the physical evidence that fits a 757 clipping light poles, gouging the generator and retaining wall, puncturing the Pentagon's facade throughout a span of about 100 feet, and injecting its remains into the building.


What a bunch of baloney.

I'm not familiar with Arabesque's articles, but I notice he doesn't put his real name on his work. (Neither do I, but I'm not presenting evidence for or against a fly-over.) I did see those DoD police sign their names to their testimony on camera ... good enough for me.


QUOTE
Debris is Consistent with a Jetliner Crash

The Pentagon attack left debris scattered over a wide area. Judging from the dimensions of punctures in the facade the vast majority of debris ended up inside of the building. Nonetheless, the few photographs that show portions of the lawn near the building show an extensive debris field, easily accounting for the portions of a 757 that did not penetrate the building. Although no photographs show large pieces of aircraft, it is not reasonable to expect large pieces to have survived intact given the nature of the crash.


Ridiculous. Where'd the tail go?

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5236/071106pentagon.jpg

I couldn't listen to the mp3, it kept stopping. But I've been involved with this site and these people from the beginning. If the p4t FDR evidence and conclusions are part of some disinformation campaign, then I'm a Hershey bar.

Posted by: Ligon Aug 7 2009, 10:02 PM

On the truth action forum Wolsey writes:

QUOTE
It was said that parts of the show description "may" be calling CIT disinfo agents, which of course isn't true. I was also very careful not to call anyone disinfo agents during the show.


Here are a few quotes from the show.

QUOTE
[15:30] WOLSEY: If they can get you asking the wrong questions they don't have to worry about the answers.' And this is, in my opinion, one of the things that happens with the disinformation. And there are groups out there that have refrained from talking about it in the past, but today we're going to talk about it; in particular Pilots for 9/11 Truth and a group called Citizens [sic] Investigatoin Team, or CIT. And I recall a [sic] article from Reprehensor from 911Blogger.com and a paper that he wrote called "On DisInformation And Damaging Associations". And Reprehensor said basically 'If you're promoting this kind of poor information then you're no friend of mine, you're no friend of 9/11 Truth." And it's time to break the silence about this. It's time to start talking about this amongst ourselves, and to that end I'm happy to have on the line with me today Jim Hoffman, who's done some excellent work with regards to the disinformation.


Here is another segment of interest:
'
QUOTE
[19:30 - 21:20] HOFFMAN: "I'd like to get into it with you about how [Thierry Meyssan's work] relates to what I think is a state of the art in this kind of disinformation... um, I, what I hope we'll talk about there's the video PentaCon, the various productions of the so-called CIT. Because, um, I think that they are, um, largely based on that work, or they, the, because they've had so much success with convincing people that there was no jetliner crash at the Pentagon that they've been able to exploit that and make, um, um, get as much mileage as they have."

WOLSEY: Let's take that back even one step further Jim; let's go to the -- what I consider to be the parent organization of CIT -- and that's Pilots for 9/11 Truth. [...] I go to this website, and, one, a good friend, researcher of mine, he jokingly says, you know, they might as well be called No757AtThePentagon.org because that's what they basically promote. And I think you can tell just as much about a website as what they don't have as what they do. And when you look at Pilots for 9/11 Truth, all of the things that you would expect to be at a website called Pilots for 9/11 Truth -- and it's a great name by the way, and, and I just think so many people hear that name and they go put the link on their website and say "Yeah! This is a good thing!" -- but when you actually go and you look at the site, all of the things that you would expect to be there, like, uh, standard operating procedure for hijackings, uh, NORAD proceedures, uh, all of the inconsistencies in the 9/11 Commission Report between the three different stories that came... all of that stuff about NORAD and what happened to the plane... none of that's there. It's all no fif... uh... Boeing at the Pentagon.

JIM HOFFMAN: That's right.

Posted by: rob balsamo Aug 7 2009, 10:19 PM

QUOTE
standard operating procedure for hijackings,


See:

Pandora's Black Box - Chapter Two - Flight Of American 77, streaming for free on home page.

Top of page http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pentagon titled "Common Strategy Prior to 9/11"



QUOTE
NORAD proceedures


See Pandora's Black Box - Chapter Two - Flight Of American 77, streaming for free on home page.


QUOTE
, uh, all of the inconsistencies in the 9/11 Commission Report


See bottom of page http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pentagon

Article titled, "Analysis of 9/11 Commission Report prior to release of Flight Data Recorder"

Woosley... rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Ligon Aug 7 2009, 10:30 PM

Hoffman says so many dishonest things that really make me mad, but this one is so bad that he just embarrasses himself. Starting around 36:45...

QUOTE
JIM HOFFMAN: ...One thing that's really interesting about Lagasse is in that in that very interview in PentaCon he's convinced that the light poles that were damaged were well to the north of the ones that were actually damaged! So that prompts the theory, well, you know, maybe he, he kind of, um, recostructed that memory to fit where he thought the light poles were! I mean it's very plausible!


You be the judge (fast forward to 28:15)


Posted by: Ligon Aug 7 2009, 11:11 PM

40:35

QUOTE
WOLSEY: Well I guess the point that I was gonna make Jim is that, um, they are using this, uh, information that’s supposedly from the flight data record, right? Isn’t that where they allege it... that it comes from? The uh...

HOFFMAN: Well that’s what... that’s what people think. But if you actually look at the data on the flight data recorder it actually indicates a path that's more like the damage path, whereas the animation... the animation that Pilots For 9/11 Truth features shows it coming in from a more northerly heading.

WOLSEY: Yes, indeed. And it also shows it coming up at a higher altitude as well.

HOFFMAN: Yeah, I don't kn... um....... I... I don't know the details about, the uh, the altitude. But, um, I think the... I think the data cuts out a few seconds before it hits... er... a few hundred... uh... a few hundred feet before it hits or something like that.

WOLSEY: Sure, but one of the claims -- and I believe that this quite possibly be... could be what gave them the idea that it flew over -- was that this data showed that, you know, whether it's genuine or not, Pilot's or 9/11 Truth is, is purporting it as such, and it shows the plane coming in too high. And so I thought maybe that might have been what spawned this whole flyover thing to begin with...

HOFFMAN: Yeah, yeah! Could be! It could be. I mean it dove tails nice... it dovetails very nicely with what they're doing. But again, why if it were real -- if this animation were real -- why wasn't it released through official channels? Instead it was inserted via the back door, ya know?

Posted by: rob balsamo Aug 7 2009, 11:21 PM

For those who wish to email Mike,

michael@visibility911.com

Posted by: rob balsamo Aug 7 2009, 11:32 PM

QUOTE
HOFFMAN: Yeah, I don't kn... um....... I... I don't know the details about, the uh, the altitude. But, um, I think the... I think the data cuts out a few seconds before it hits... er... a few hundred... uh... a few hundred feet before it hits or something like that.


Hoffman... lol. What a bonehead.

QUOTE
WOOLSEY: ....whether it's genuine or not, Pilot's or 9/11 Truth is, is purporting it as such, ....


No we dont.

QUOTE
HOFFMAN: if this animation were real -- why wasn't it released through official channels? Instead it was inserted via the back door, ya know?


"Back Door"? Does this look like it came from a back foor?





Those have been posted on our site since http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?showtopic=375.

I reiterate the "bonehead" comment i made above.

Posted by: rob balsamo Aug 7 2009, 11:50 PM

QUOTE
Pilots For 9/11 Truth "Disinformation"?
Friday, August 7, 2009 11:45 PM
From:
"Pilots For Truth" <pilotsfortruth@yahoo.com>

To:
michael@visibility911.com

Hi Mike,

I was recently informed you did an interview with Hoffman regarding our work and labeling it as "disinformation". A thread was started on our forum by one of our members regarding this topic. Your interview is so full of logical fallacies, strawmans, and flat out ignorance it's not even funny.

For instance, Hoffman claims the "animation" we received came through a "back door" and not official channels. We have had cover letters posted on our site since Oct 2006 from the NTSB which accompanied the animation CD's, along with links to the NTSB FOIA request form and contact information for others to get their own. Is the NTSB "official" enough?

It also apears Hoffman hasnt even reviewed the work as clearly he is unsure of himself when talking about what the data contains, such as altitude.

Anyway, you may want to check out the thread at our forum. Many, including myself, are picking apart your little interview of ignorance.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?showtopic=17787

Regards,
Rob

BCC: Pilots For 9/11 Truth Core Member
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/core

Posted by: Ligon Aug 7 2009, 11:58 PM

Again, Wolsey http://truthaction.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=32422#32422:

QUOTE
It was said that parts of the show description "may" be calling CIT disinfo agents, which of course isn't true. I was also very careful not to call anyone disinfo agents during the show.


And yet here is what he says talking about CIT during the show....

60:19

QUOTE
WOLSEY: Yeah, it’s just, it’s unbelievable. And I mean, I’m not going to sit here and defend the official story, but at the same time, we have to... we have to follow the evidence where it leads. And if it’s leading us in a particular direction then so be it. But if you have con artists, and disinformation specialists out there shoving this garbage down your throat, which is, you know, a lot of the behavior that we have observed and documented. You know, Arabesque has really done a lot on these guys. And, you know, let’s tell folks where they can go, Jim, so they can get some more information, read Victoria’s article, your article, and, uh, some of Arabesque’s work.

Posted by: rob balsamo Aug 8 2009, 12:00 AM

Does anyone else find it funny that the people they source are named "Arabesque", "Reprehensor"... etc etc.

While we source people with real names and govt agencies.

Does anyone take these guys seriously?

Too funny...

Posted by: Sanders Aug 8 2009, 01:37 AM

QUOTE (Ligon @ Aug 11 2009, 09:49 PM) *
Thanks Rob!

I'm still having some trouble though. I only have two check boxes under "Post Options", enable emoticons and enable signiture. I just tried embedding NSA instead of the video I had and it's not working for me. I think you may be doing an admin-only thing, no?

EDIT: To keep the thread on topic please just PM me the response and delete this post. Thanks!

SECOND EDIT: Thanks for helping Sanders. I tried to delete the second embed and now it's back to the same problem. I don't think I'm able to turn HTML on.


You're welcome, I saw it wasn't embedded and just did it, not realizing you had the same code in there twice. I see you've straightened it all out.

.....

What IRONY that these guys are yelling "disinfo". rolleyes.gif


Well, Pilots for 9/11 Truth may be finally getting some long-deserved attention from this ...

Posted by: tnemelckram Aug 8 2009, 04:35 AM

Hoffman sez . . . .

QUOTE
QUOTE
But again, why if it were real -- if this animation were real -- why wasn't it released through official channels? Instead it was inserted via the back door, ya know?


Now that's exactly what I say about the "South Flight Path - it was inserted through the back door!
The government has never made an express claim through any official agency that the plane took ANY specific path at all, let alone the South Path. It has never collected together the various tidbits that it has released through its own "back door" and said that this is our evidence of the South Path or even of Some Path. The so-called "south Path" evidence was at best released through the back door and is so shaky that the government won't even collect it together and cite it as evidence!

I have posted my reasons for this on many occasions and I trust that whether or not anyone agrees with me, they have read them and are familiar with them (hence I won't post links again here).

Now people are using the exact same "back door" argument in reverse to shove it up our a s s ! The obvious answer to this is that the animation is not in opposition to or inconsistent with anything the government has ever said and everything that might contradict the animation "was inserted through the back door, ya know?"!!!!!!

If you asked Hoffman to show you his "front door", I'll bet he couldn't do it.

ANNANUDDERTING . . . .

QUOTE
QUOTE
Yeah, I don't kn... um....... I... I don't know the details about, the uh, the altitude. But, um, I think the.. I think the data cuts out a few seconds before it hits... er... a few hundred... uh... a few hundred feet before it hits or something like that.


Does this sound like a guy who knows what he it talking about or has any conviction about what he is saying! I don't think so! In fact, it's an admission of his ignorance, evidences by the "I think"s and "I don't know the details". He basically says he has no answer!

Posted by: painter Aug 10 2009, 12:10 PM

Again, I request that everyone keep this civil. I understand why you would call someone an "idiot" for disagreeing with you/us -- given all the man hours that have been put into this over the last three years, to have our research labeled "disinformation" and discounted as unworthy of serious attention is beyond exasperating.

Still, to fall into the trap of expressing our emotions rather than our intelligence -- to name-call rather than address the issues point-by-point -- is to end up doing precisely what Wolsey and Hoffman have done in this interview. They claim to have evidence which refutes our claims and have posted links to this evidence in various locations. Very well, lets take those claims, list them, link to the arguments presented here in this thread and offer our reasoned counter positions.

Why bother? Because, as aerohead said up thread:

QUOTE (aerohead @ Aug 7 2009, 05:16 PM) *
<snip>
Real truthers try to educate each other and
promote unity.


This is what I would like to accomplish in this thread -- provide a public educational resource that attempts to heal the divide which has existed in the 9/11 movement regarding the events at the Pentagon at least since early 2006.

In this regard, I submit that the best approach is, first of all, establish certain points of agreement and then, from those points of agreement, establish precisely which points upon which we disagree and why.

For example: Do we (by which I mean the majority of 9/11 truthers) all agree that the South of Columbia Pike (SOCP) approach is the ONLY approach that satisfies the physical damage found outside and inside the Pentagon?

You see how fundamental this is? If we do not agree on this point, then all further debate is pointless.

On the other hand, if we DO agree on this point, we have a foundation for further, potentially fruitful discussion. Pilots for 9/11 Truth (P4T) and Citizen Investigation Team (CIT) has spent years analyzing this flight path using a variety of data sets: The analysis of the FDR information provided directly by the NTSB itself and the on-camera interviews of multiple eye witnesses to the event to name ONLY two examples (there are several others).

I consider myself a "real" truther as defined by aerohead above: My goal is to educate and unite -- to put an end, once and for all, to this DIVIDE within the 9/11 truth community. THIS CAN NOT BE DONE WITH INSULTS AND INSINUATIONS (no matter how justified you feel you are in using them). There is simply no need for them. We have verifiable facts behind us. Some of these facts are very easy to grasp, others (especially for those of us who are not aeronautics professionals) are more difficult to grasp. It does not help us, in fact it makes our job as "real truthers" far more difficult, when we allow ourselves to engage in the SAME ad homonym attacks used by those who are our detractors.

Thank you for your consideration.

Posted by: Ligon Aug 10 2009, 02:16 PM

Good post painter. I agree.

Anyway, I want to keep providing transcripts of parts of this so we have it on record exactly what these people are saying and so that people can (civilly) respond.

Remember that as I have shown already in this thread (and there are many other examples in the interview) both Hoffman and Wolsey are specifically calling P4T and CIT "disinformation" over and over.

Early in the show Wolsey defined the difference between disinformation and misinformation.

QUOTE
[13:41-14:10] MICHAEL WOLSEY: Now, misinformation and disinformation are two different things. Misinformation is false or inaccurate information that's been spread unintentionally. By well meaning people. That's misinformation. Now disinformation is distinguished from misinformation by motive. Because while people who are spreading misinformation... they don't realize they're doing it... people who are spreading disinformation do.


Now look at some of the other things they say...

QUOTE
[65:29] JIM HOFFMAN: ...as long as this disinformation remains ascendant and, and unchallenged by, by some of the more influential people that are identified with the 9/11 truth movement, and things will stay where they are, or, are, and as the attack recedes we’ll, we’ll, we will never get a genuine investigation, we’ll... the public opin... the public will fail to understand what really happened. So that’s a pretty grim... I think that’s a pretty grim assessment but, um... and, and that just underscores the need to, to um, to really identify what the full scope of this psyop is. I mean if you understand that 9/11 was an inside job then it just doesn’t make any SENSE that they would, would do anything other than muck up the... the... the umm... independent investigation of it by, by, by throwing up all of this nonsense.

WOLSEY: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more...


It seems clear that "they" in that context means the perpetrators of 9/11. Hoffman clarifies this elsewhere (see below).

QUOTE
[49:00-49:27] JIM HOFFMAN: I mean how could -- how could you imaging something more offensive to the victims of the attack than, than, than this, you know, “Everything was faked!”, you know, and just, just, you know, in your face! You know, it’s like, “You didn’t see... you were fooled!”, you know, “You thought you saw a plane crash but really, you know, it flew over the building”, you know. And all... think of all the people that we don’t, you know, that um, that we’ll never hear from, that were driving on I-395, probably the five hundred people who saw the explosive, and “Oh, they just... they were just too stupid to see that there was a plane that flew over the Pentagon!” Or, “they were fooled!”, or, you know. It’s just, really... um... so it’s designed... so the disinformation is designed to do multiple things. It’s designed to offend the victims of the attack. It’s designed to make... to reinforce the loony conspiracist meme; to make it, you know... ta...ta... to ridiculous, to reinfor... because that’s what... that’s the main defense against all... against considering alternatives to the official story: that these are loony conspiracy theorists that don’t have critical thinking abilities and they will believe the worst non-sense.


"DESIGNED" to offend the victims. "DESIGNED" to "reinforce the loony conspiracist meme". He is calling this a deliberate, calculated disinformation operation.

QUOTE
[50:48] HOFFMAN: If you look at the number of websites like... st... uh... like...that have been around the whole time, um, uhh, um that c... you know, challenging the official story, it seems like, you know, uh, more than have of them, um, have been just promoting non... you know, promoting the worst nonsense. And um, and, and think, if... if... given the resources of the people who created the attack, and given... given, you know, if you understand it as an inside job of COURSE they’re going to have the resources to put in... to putting up all this nonsense in order to discredit challenges to the official story.

WOLSEY: Absolutely. And it’s our job, it’s everybody who’s listening’s job, to make sure that you’re vetting your information as.... eh....eh.... eh... to... only presenting to the public that which is the best. And Jim, I don’t know how people can go out there, and I mean SERIOUSLY go out and talk to people they don’t know and, uh, promote this ridiculous stuff. I mean I would be scared to death to go out there and ta... uh... talk, I mean it’s hard enough as, as, as it is, especially when you first start, to become an activist, and it’s scary because you know there is going to be a certain percentage of people that are gonna look at you like you’re crazy. But, you know, so you wanna have all your ducks in a row and you wanna be able to say, you know, “I’m gonna show this person the best information because I wanna wake him up!” But yet, can you imagine going up to somebody that you didn’t know and try to... try to uh, get them to believe this CIT bullshit!

HOFFMAN: Nooo. I, uh, It’s just... sa... it’s really sad...


QUOTE
[54:44] HOFFMAN: ...I don't know if some of these people endorsing the... the um... the... north.... the... the... CIT's work have realized how, how umm... how effectively they've been conned. By.... and um, you know and that's um, you know, and that's... it's really sad but I think, um, it's, I, it... hopefully it can be instructive to some people, to those very people especially, maybe, um, you know, maybe some good can come out of this. But it's, but um, um, ehh um, maybe... maybe one way... one way to understand it is if you understand what effective salesmen these people are... this... the CIT... maybe there's less shame in having been conned if you can understand that you've been conned by professionals, you know, whose, people whose job it is to, um, you know, who are really good at creating, uhh, at, at, at restricting your attention. At getting you to look at something and not taking in the broader context of it.


It seems clear that he is trying to imply that CIT and possibly P4T are professional "disinformation specialists" (as Wolsey put it earlier) who are somehow funded, created, and/or promoted by "the people who created the attack" as part of the psyop.

Posted by: Ligon Aug 10 2009, 02:48 PM

Regarding this...

QUOTE
[49:00-49:27] JIM HOFFMAN: I mean how could -- how could you imaging something more offensive to the victims of the attack than, than, than this, you know, “Everything was faked!”, you know, and just, just, you know, in your face! You know, it’s like, “You didn’t see... you were fooled!”, you know, “You thought you saw a plane crash but really, you know, it flew over the building”, you know. And all... think of all the people that we don’t, you know, that um, that we’ll never hear from, that were driving on I-395, probably the five hundred people who saw the explosive, and “Oh, they just... they were just too stupid to see that there was a plane that flew over the Pentagon!” Or, “they were fooled!”, or, you know. It’s just, really... um... so it’s designed... so the disinformation is designed to do multiple things. It’s designed to offend the victims of the attack. It’s designed to make... to reinforce the loony conspiracist meme; to make it, you know... ta...ta... to ridiculous, to reinfor... because that’s what... that’s the main defense against all... against considering alternatives to the official story: that these are loony conspiracy theorists that don’t have critical thinking abilities and they will believe the worst non-sense.


First of all, CIT definitely has never said that the people on 395 were "too stupid" to know that the plane did not hit the building but rather flew over it and away. This is horribly disingenuous. Victoria Ashley does the same thing in her article when she says that CIT endorses the theory that after the explosion the plane "somehow flew away, unnoticed by anyone in the area".

CIT has NEVER made any claims remotely like this, and there is no way Ashley and Hoffman don't know it. They have ALWAYS said that they know people saw the plane, and they have released TONS of information explaining how an elaborate "second plane cover story" was used to convince witnesses on 395 (most of whom would not have seen the plane approaching but only flying after the fireball) that what they saw was a second plane. As pointed out by CIT in http://www.citizeninvestigationteam.com/nsa.html (and many other places) it is clear that this worked wonders because even Pentagon Police Officer Roosevelt Roberts Jr. -- who saw the "commercial aircraft" flying away from the scene "as clear as day" just seconds after the explosion at an altitude at less than 100 feet, and which came from the same side as the alleged "impact" -- convinced himself that what he saw must have been a second plane.

CIT has also pointed out that: "...we will NEVER know what people really reported that day due to the fact that the 911 call tapes and transcripts were quickly confiscated and permanently sequestered by the FBI. This is just as important as the fact that they refuse to release any of the clear video of the event. 911 calls are typically available for the public and in fact they were released for the 9/11 attacks in New York. So why not in Arlington?"

More info on that here: http://thepentacon.com/Topic6.htm

Additionally, as CIT has repeatedly said and shown, the Pentagon is about one mile from Reagan National Airport so extremely low flying airplanes flying over that section of 395 is an EXTREMELY common site, occuring every few minutes (or even more frequently sometimes) all day every day.

Anyone who did understand what they saw and who was not persuaded otherwise by the 2nd plane propaganda would undoubtedly fear for their lives, especially when they saw the "plane hit the building" official story go into full effect in the hysteria after 9/11. Even today they would probably fear for their lives, just like Roosevelt Roberts now that he understands the implications of his testimony.

See these videos by CIT for MUCH more information about how they were able to pull the flyover off in broad daylight, and to understand how Hoffman and Ashley are blatantly misrepresenting what CIT thinks and say.

http://www.citizeninvestigationteam.com/videos-htpio.html

http://thepentacon.com/2ndplanecoverstory2.htm

Also his whole "alienating the victims" argument could just as easily be made about the WTC, and is not a valid reason not to discuss the evidence proving what happened in either case. Someone could just as easily say:

QUOTE
I mean how could -- how could you imaging something more offensive to the victims of the attack than, than, than this, you know, “The collapse of the twin towers was faked!”, you know, and just, just, you know, in your face! You know, it’s like, “You didn’t see... you were fooled!”, you know, “You thought you saw buildings collapsing but really, you know, they were being blown up with explosives!”, you know. And all... think of all the people that we don’t, you know, that um, that we’ll never hear from, that were working in the World Trade Center, probably thousands of people who saw the contractors coming in and out of the building working on the elevator modernization, and “Oh, they just... they were just too stupid to see that they were carrying in tons and tons of explosives!” Or the people in NY and watching on TV: “they were fooled!”, or, you know. It’s just, really... um... so it’s designed... so the disinformation is designed to do multiple things. It’s designed to offend the victims of the attack. It’s designed to make... to reinforce the loony conspiracist meme; to make it, you know... ta...ta... to ridiculous, to reinfor... because that’s what... that’s the main defense against all... against considering alternatives to the official story: that these are loony conspiracy theorists that don’t have critical thinking abilities and they will believe the worst non-sense.


The bottom line is that both the flyover at the Pentagon and the controlled demolition of the twin towers sound crazy to many people before they see the evidence. However, both are conclusively proven to be true by the evidence, and that is what matters. This is about truth, period, and as a matter of fact I find that there is a larger emotional and psychological hurdle for many people to clear to accept the evidence for controlled demolition of the towers than the flyover evidence at the Pentagon. In my experience people tend to have a stronger emotional attachment to the official story of the WTC since it was something that they actually watched on TV and were traumatized by, whereas the Pentagon attack is much more nebulous and thus people are often able to look at it more objectively.

Posted by: painter Aug 10 2009, 04:46 PM

QUOTE (Ligon @ Aug 10 2009, 11:48 AM) *
The bottom line is that both the flyover at the Pentagon and the controlled demolition of the twin towers sound crazy to many people before they see the evidence. However, both are conclusively proven to be true by the evidence, and that is what matters. This is about truth, period, and as a matter of fact I find that there is a larger emotional and psychological hurdle for many people to clear to accept the evidence for controlled demolition of the towers than the flyover evidence at the Pentagon. In my experience people tend to have a stronger emotional attachment to the official story of the WTC since it was something that they actually watched on TV and were traumatized by, whereas the Pentagon attack is much more nebulous and thus people are often able to look at it more objectively.

Excellent points, Ligon.

The question I'm asking myself is why is it so important to keep the Pentagon issue out of the public consciousness -- not only the public at large but even those who already ascribe to the "9/11 was an inside job" meme? This question would be moot if it weren't for the fact that, at this point, as the result of all the analysis of available information and witnesses to date, we have every bit as much STRONG evidence that Flight 77 did not impact the Pentagon as we do STRONG evidence that the WTC complex was demolished in a staged controlled demolition.

Again, I return to the central questions:

I maintain that if we can agree on the first item and any ONE of the other items, then we have succeeded in providing STRONG evidence to the 9/11 Truth community that the Pentagon "attack" IS an on-going deception.

This then moves the whole debate to the question of the motives behind those who have libeled P4T and CIT by implying in no uncertain terms that their research is intentional disinformation with the intent of dividing the 9/11 Truth community.

Indeed, it is DIFFICULT to convey to others the significance of this information IF ONE DOES NOT UNDERSTAND IT AND ITS IMPLICATIONS THOROUGHLY. This is the accusation I level at Victoria Ashley, Arabesque, Jim Hoffman, Michael Wolssey and others who are the self-appointed gate-keepers, attempting to discredit and, indeed, slander P4T and CIT. Repeatedly they have put forward criticisms of the research done by these two organizations that DOES NOT address the most salient points made. Whether due to prejudice, intellectual dishonesty or some other unknown motivation, they have launched a coordinated attack against this research and the individuals involved in it. It is time we bring this to an end, once and for all.

Posted by: chek Aug 10 2009, 05:01 PM

I've been wondering how this would all play out following my friend Stefan's recent good work in holing the ship arabinabasque below the waterline.

What seems plain as day to me is that the early Pentagon wars were won by a certain clique's government story-hugging strategy which has since been shown by Craig and Aldo's invaluable and irreplaceable time, work and effort to be a crock.

We all now know for certain (in the post Pf911T and CIT world since this battle was previously fought) it's a crock, but the usual dozen suspects and their half-wit 'me too' supporters aren't quite prepared to concede, even going so far as to throw Hoffman (who, just like Killtown, would have maintained a decent reputation as a humble but required archivist, except for unrealistic pretensions) unprepared into the lion's den where he has been made to look a fool in less than 10 seconds.
Way to go Vicki babe.
And we won't even mention the 6-10 second per thermitic compound ceiling panel saga at the WTCs story either - it's surely been a long time since manual labour figured in Jim'n'Vic's day-to-day routine, so let's not be too cruel.

PfT's and CIT's self-discovered information isn't going away, no matter how many times certain factions try to dilute it with distracting nonsense and spurious claims. Probably the best placed dozen people on the entire planet saw what they saw and recounted it in very clear terms to CIT.
To their credit, Craig and Aldo have produced a record of unspinnable info, demonstrated on location and drawn and signed in situ.
Nobody gives a f*ck what arabinabasque or larson or any of their other nobody 'supporters' (or sock puppets - who would know?) desperately try to spin about that.

After all, they're do-nothing nobodies whose only skill, if anything, is in interpreting - and in a highly partisan manner at that.
Where's arabinabasque's follow up interviews? Where's Larson's or any of the other the govt loyalist site's keyboard kweens exposès?
I'll tell you where they are - they don't exist, because they never had the wherewithal to actively do anything except criticize and attempt to spinmeister (poorly) other people's effort without disturbing their fat asses.

And so all the fake researchers and colonels desperately linking to employer's websites and hinting at dark information they can't yet share but we are expected to accept as being damning anyway, by way of a threat and so on, looking for any means to holdback the floodwaters we currently see sweeping away that mythical built-on-sand Boeing-in-the-Pentagon consensus. Too bad that the misquoting, misrepresentations and outright lying by their own allies weren't called out at the time.
Still, that's all in the past and we are where we are and we reap what we sow.

Their clarion call is 'Nothing should have hit the Pentagon'.
Well next time (if ever) you meet an ordinary Joe - canvas him/her on what is understood in the everyday world by the word 'should'.
In plain language, it means they f*cked up and 'should' became in reality 'didn't'.
It's readily understood and even expected in exactly the same way as "your wages should have been paid today (but weren't)"
and, "your insurance should have covered this (but didn't)".
In this everyday reality, who cares what "should" have happened at the Pentagon?
Anybody living in the real world knows and expects this already - and smoking gun it most definitely is not.

Stefan, for showing far more tenacity and debate skills than I possess, might well have adopted 617 Sqn (the Dambuster's) famous motto 'Après moi le deluge.
I suspect that by the time this particular deluge has run its full course, certain parties will sorely wish they'd played much, much nicer.

Posted by: painter Aug 10 2009, 05:44 PM

QUOTE (chek @ Aug 10 2009, 02:01 PM) *
Their clarion call is 'Nothing should have hit the Pentagon'.

Precisely. And as I pointed out on blogger at the time, there is NO EVIDENCE not sullied by the likely perpetrators themselves that anything did.

In a way I'm glad Wolsey, Hoffman, et. al., have attacked P4T & CIT as they have. I'm willing to give all these individuals their due respect for their 9/11 activism but I'm not willing to be fooled by rhetoric not backed up by evidence. Even if one were to accept the assertion, for example, that there are no fly-over witnesses (which the account of Rosevlet Roberts strongly contests), this does NOTHING to counter the face-with-the-name on-screen on-primacies independently verified interviews of MULTIPLE eye witnesses to a flight path and flight behavior (speed, banking) that is irreconcilable with the physical damage displayed. The assertion argues from the assumption that such witnesses MUST exist and that if they can not be found or identified, THEN the accounts of existing eye witnesses must be faulty to the point of irrelevance.

Moreover, EVEN IF none of the NFP witnesses exist, P4T has substantially shown that the SOCPFP is impossible.

The fact is, none of this is necessary -- and was never truly necessary -- because it should have been and, in fact, WAS obvious to any who bothered to look, that the ABSENCE of very specific and positively identified plane debris (air frame, engines, landing gear, seats, luggage etc.) not to mention the statistical impossibility of impacting the Pentagon leveled off at precisely ground elevation, at a precisely reinforced location (and many other absurd anomalies), renders the notion that AA Flight 77 impacted the Pentagon a totally absurd fabrication.

And yet, here we are. For years we've wandered in the fun house down mirrored corridors populated by red geese and wild hearings all thrown in our path by criminal conspirators that have hijacked an empire under the cloak of national security in broad daylight -- and to date have gotten away with it.

'Après moi le deluge, indeed.

cleanup.gif

Posted by: chek Aug 10 2009, 06:13 PM

QUOTE (painter @ Aug 10 2009, 10:44 PM) *
And yet, here we are. For years we've wandered in the fun house down mirrored corridors populated by red geese and wild herrings all thrown in our path by criminal conspirators that have hijacked an empire under the cloak of national security in broad daylight -- and to date have gotten away with it.

'Après moi le deluge, indeed.


Ever the bigger picture, and well worth the reminder.
Thanks, painter.

Posted by: dMole Aug 12 2009, 04:16 AM

QUOTE (chek @ Aug 10 2009, 03:01 PM) *
Nobody gives a f*ck what arabinabasque or larson or any of their other nobody 'supporters' (or sock puppets - who would know?) desperately try to spin about that.

After all, they're do-nothing nobodies whose only skill, if anything, is in interpreting - and in a highly partisan manner at that.
Where's arabinabasque's follow up interviews? Where's Larson's or any of the other the govt loyalist site's keyboard kweens exposès?
I'll tell you where they are - they don't exist, because they never had the wherewithal to actively do anything except criticize and attempt to spinmeister (poorly) other people's effort without disturbing their fat asses.

Please chek, let's not drag the Basque people into the "9/11 disinfo" cesspool that is VickiJimdom... Although they (the Basque "terrorist" separatists) certainly have their own legitimate crimes to "atone" for, they are guilty of NOTHING in this context that I know of (and I know several persons of Basque heritage personally). Most of them are extremely hard-working individuals and HELLA GOOOD cooks BTW!

Also, one note from painter's initial request (and although I got quite bored by the 5 minutes+ of irrelevant? "intro" material and am slowly grinding my way through the "Hoffman hour" of this MP3) here are my quick notes from that intro:

Dr. William Pepper, June 2006, 5:27-5:33 "Be careful in every aspect of the work(/d). Make sure your allegations, your claims are well-founded. Because if they're not, YOU WILL BE discredited. [applause] "

Now could those words not come back to bite certain "someones" right squarely in the ass???? whistle.gif

Posted by: dMole Aug 13 2009, 07:04 AM

On NORAD- 25 pages' worth of forum search results here...

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?act=Search&CODE=show&searchid=8918e96e9e3620ba764f7a9a09ee408b&search_in=posts&result_type=posts&highlite=%2BNORAD

So did either of these 2 radio "pundits" ever look at any of the .CSV data?

EDIT: Hmm- after the recent forum hacking repair(s), I'm only pulling up 75 posts on 3 pages re: NORAD in a search here now (going back to Oct. 2006 BTW). Very interesting...

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?act=Search&CODE=simpleresults&sid=701e1df927a398416fd4331e9c2421bb&highlite=NORAD

Posted by: rob balsamo Aug 19 2009, 09:34 AM

Tino,

Tell us how you really feel! laugh.gif

I hear Victoria Ashley (i guess she is Hoff's other half?) after being shown the NTSB cover letters, now claims the NTSB will just say the data/animation didnt come from them. That the NTSB will "deny" that they ever provided the data/animation through the FOIA to George Washington University, Kevin Ryan and his team up in Bloomington, and perhaps thousands of independent researchers around the globe.

Are these people for real? Does anyone take the Hoff and Ashley seriously anymore? Its a shame. Perhaps they are deliberately trying to discredit themselves. Wont be the first time we seen this happen in the "movement". Think they'll claim they are the "Messiah" next? laughing1.gif

I received emails from prominent members of the "movement" over this. I guess they just couldnt believe Hoff and Ashley were making such absurd claims. Of course I fully sourced it for them. smile.gif

I bet Victoria used to be the type that when playing hide-n-go seek as a kid, thought that if she closed her eyes when found, that the seeker wouldnt be able to see her... laugh.gif

Posted by: tnemelckram Aug 19 2009, 12:25 PM

QUOTE
I hear Victoria Ashley (i guess she is Hoff's other half?) after being shown the NTSB cover letters, now claims the NTSB will just say the data/animation didnt come from them. That the NTSB will "deny" that they ever provided the data/animation through the FOIA to George Washington University, Kevin Ryan and his team up in Bloomington, and perhaps thousands of independent researchers around the globe.


Now wait a minute, has the NTSB made this "denial"? They've had what, three years now to do it since you guys put up your analysis? I've been patiently waiting all this time for this other shoe to drop. It's like waiting for that goddam skyscraper in Beijing to collapse at free fall speed. Ms. Ashley Victoria is putting the cart before the horse.

But I suppose this is actually a good thing. Now that she has suggested the answer to NTSB, presumably they will take her cue and within a reasonable amount of time issue such a denial. But having planted the seed, how long is she going to wait for growth? After a couple of months with still no NTSB denial of her general public comments, she should be willing to drop the matter. What she should do is write to the NTSB for comment and see whether they ever get back to her and say that if they don't respond in a month to her specific inquiry she will take the NTSB released data as genuine.

Posted by: rob balsamo Aug 19 2009, 12:46 PM

QUOTE (tnemelckram @ Aug 19 2009, 12:25 PM) *
What she should do is write to the NTSB for comment and see whether they ever get back to her and say that if they don't respond in a month to her specific inquiry she will take the NTSB released data as genuine.


Better yet, Hoff and Ashley should perhaps fill out an FOIA request at the NTSB website and get their own like the rest of us have done. There is no "back door", no "covert channel" as claimed by Hoff in the above interview. Its a simple FOIA request and perhaps doesnt get more "official" than that. The NTSB are pretty fast to reply with the 9/11 data from what i'm seeing. Mine took roughly 4 weeks to get.... Certainly if the NTSB is now "denying" sending out the data/animation as Ashley claims, Hoff/Ash will not be able to receive it as have the thousands of others, with cover letters, some specifically mentioning the contents.

But then again, the above would take actual research and go against any bias or apparent agenda Hoff-Ash have.


Hoff-Ash... hmm... kinda sounds like Half-assed.. .huh? wink.gif

Posted by: painter Aug 19 2009, 01:24 PM

QUOTE (Turbofan @ Aug 19 2009, 04:02 AM) *
Sorry if I'm coming across angry, but it pisses me off when members of the truth movement attack valid data without researching first.

No problem, Turbofan. I had intended to try and keep this thread 'clean' as a genuine invitation to our detractors to debate. After all this time, though, what is clear is they have no intention of 'debating' these issues at all and I think we all know the reason why. Everything you said hit the nail on the head. They can't 'debate' the facts -- all they can do is SLIME P4T and CIT publicly and then act like their sh*t don't stink.

rolleyes.gif


.

Posted by: painter Aug 19 2009, 02:31 PM

QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Aug 19 2009, 06:34 AM) *
I received emails from prominent members of the "movement" over this. I guess they just couldnt believe Hoff and Ashley were making such absurd claims. Of course I fully sourced it for them. smile.gif

I bet Victoria used to be the type that when playing hide-n-go seek as a kid, thought that if she closed her eyes when found, that the seeker wouldnt be able to see her... laugh.gif


Ashley, Hoffman, Wolsey, Arabesque, reprehensor, et. al, have now thoroughly discredited themselves. As you say, it really is too bad. One is forced to ask the question, why? Personally, I don't want to speculate. It just proves what I've been saying all along in other threads -- if you don't get at the heart of the question, why it is we're all so 'suggestible', don't begin to ask ourselves why it is we so readily embrace lies as truth, we'll never find our way out of this nightmare. They're trying to protect the movement -- I'll give them credit for that -- but how can you protect a truth movement by embracing lies and deception?

I don't really know Hoffman or Ashley, although I have been in their presence a few times. Ashley irritated me from the first moment I met her. She has a certain sort of pseudo-academic 'holier than thou' attitude some would readily apply a less flattering metaphor to. At base she's a control freak -- either do things her way or don't do them at all. This is why she's criticized CIT for not being "scientific". From her vantage point, any data that isn't gathered in a way that measures up to her academic standards has to be rejected as invalid. Well, you know what, Ms. Ashley, the real world just doesn't work that way. If gathering data this way is so damn important to you and your 'clique' of would-be researchers, why the hell didn't YOU and YOURS do what CIT and P4T did? Hmm?? What is scientific about taking the attitude that the Pentagon is a 'honey pot' and, therefore, should be avoided at all costs? What is scientific about not requesting your own information from the NTSB and analyzing it for yourselves? What is scientific about not combing through published eye-witness accounts and vetting them for accuracy of reporting and accuracy of location (distance, angle of view, etc.), not to mention the witnesses' ties to government, military and the press? What is scientific about NOT reading eye witness accounts recorded soon after the events as published by the Library of Congress and The Center for Military History? What is scientific about not locating these eye witnesses and verifying these recorded accounts? What is scientific about not comparing these accounts to the very narrow south approach path and discovering that we have multiple, confirmed, eye witnesses who saw something completely different. What is scientific about coming to the conclusion that all these witnesses MUST be either lying or mistaken? What is scientific about accusing those who DID take the time, trouble and expense of DOING ALL THAT of NOT being "scientific" in their approach?

Indeed, it is beyond aggravating. Either we are faced here with utter denial, exactly the same kind of denial we are faced with day in and day out by people who refuse to look at the evidence people like Steven Jones and others have painstakingly accumulated for years, and, thus, maintain there can't be 'any truth in it' -- OR -- we are faced with something else. I really don't see any middle ground here. EITHER they are in denial OR we are confronting an attempt to deflect attention away from the evidence accumulated about what happened at the Pentagon by people who SAY they are members of the truth movement. The ONLY way they're going to extricate their sorry asses out of this mess THEY created and are fueling as a division within this community IS TO ADDRESS THE EVIDENCE. Period.

Look, I'm willing to admit that Pilots for Truth and CIT aren't perfect. NONE of us (that I know of) are trained forensic researchers or investigators. [ROB rightly corrected me on this point in the post below this one. THANKS ROB!] ALL of us got into this because we felt it our duty as good citizens to look more closely into the events at the Pentagon because on the face of it, it just didn't make any sense. IF ANYONE ELSE with the requisites qualifications had done this we wouldn't have had to. But that is just the point. NO ONE qualified by academic standards was willing to look into this matter beyond just blindly putting their rubber stamp on the published accounts. Anyone who was a journalist or forensic analyst or professional investigator COULD HAVE done this -- but that is the point. NO ONE DID. It fell upon our shoulders and we've born that weight -- in the face of derision and marginalization not only from the 9/11 Truth deniers, but even those who CLAIM to be searching for the truth. NOT ONCE in all this time did ANY of these detractors OFFER TO HELP. Did ANY of them contribute time, money, expertise, constructive criticism to these efforts, ever?? And, to make matters worse, if we display even one iota of 'pique' about this state of affairs, we're branded as HOSTILE and worse! Now they've come right out and libeled us with accusations that we are agents of disinformation!

Anger doesn't begin to describe what I feel about this situation. Still, I'm a rational enough person that I can put these feelings aside. I can say publicly, and put my name to it, that EITHER they begin to address the EVIDENCE that we've uncovered and STOP this out-and-out SLIMING of people who want the same things they claim to want -- OR -- they will further reveal their, at best, lack of genuine leadership and objectivity or, at worst, reveal their actual agenda.

Repeatedly, P4T and CIT has called for an open, public debate of this evidence and repeatedly they've refused to engage with any of us. So, what does this tell us? What are we to think? Their 100+ eye-witness claim has been shown to be bogus. Their ASSUMPTION that a 'fly over' would had to have been witnessed by more than one person is just that an assumption. That the NOC witnesses exist can not be denied. That there is no physical evidence for a NOC impact also can not be denied. Although they are, absurdly, attempting to deny the existence of the NTSB provided FDR data, ultimately this, too, can not be denied. There is so much more, too, that they want to distract from -- the shear absurdity of Lloyd England's claims, for example -- that these otherwise seemingly respectable people have now painted themselves into a corner. Their stubborn refusal to address this evidence directly and, instead, to mount a campaign to discredit it based on inaccurate and false information and assumptions, bullying and 'kill the messenger' tactics, IS UNDERMINING THEIR CREDIBILITY and, worse, disrupting the cohesiveness of this movement.

.

Posted by: rob balsamo Aug 19 2009, 03:21 PM

QUOTE (painter @ Aug 19 2009, 02:31 PM) *
(that I know of) are trained forensic researchers or investigators.

.



ahem....

Jeff Latas
-Over 20 years in the USAF
--USAF Accident investigation Board President
--Flew the F-111, T38, and F-15E
--Combat experience in the F-15E includes Desert Storm and four tours of duty in Northern and Southern Watch
--Weapons Requirements Officer, USAF HQ, Pentagon
--Standard and Evaluations Flight Examiner, Command level
-Currently Captain for JetBlue Airways


George Nelson
Colonel USAF (Ret.)
30 year career managing aircraft maintenance activities
Licensed commercial pilot
Licensed airframe and powerplant mechanic
Aircraft accident investigator

Colonel Michael Harley USAF (ret)
Command pilot
~ 6000 Total Flight Time
T-38,T-33, T-37,T-39, C-47, U-6, Uh-1, C130A, B, E, &
prototype H, Kc-135 and B-52.
26 years commissioned. 34 Years total service USAF Accident Investigator
Instructor Accident Investigation, Embry-Riddle University

Management analyst and IG, simulator instructor,
Instructor Pilot, Standardization Evaluation Pilot,
Chief of Standardization of a Sac Wing equipped with B-52, RC-135 and Kc-135
Flew Cessna 177, Twin Bonanza, Cherokee-6
~200 hours as civilian private pilot
Newspaper columnist for 10 years, now a freelance writer


J. Randall Reinhardt
Commercial, Multi, Instrument, CFI, ATP,
Commercial Glider, Advanced/ Instrument Ground Instructor,
Turbojet Type Rating - Learjet
Flying since 1961,
8,000+ hours in civil, military and Part 25 Transport category aircraft
J.D. degree in 1972 ,
30 years practicing trial law, with a concentration in aviation related litigation,
including FAA Part 91, 135, 121 and 141 accidents and FAA/NTSB matters
Forensic Director for U.S. Aviation Forensics with 30 years experience in aircraft accident investigation.
Former FAA Accident Prevention Specialist
Former member U.S. Unlimited Aerobatic Team with unrestricted aerobatic waiver.

Dennis Cimino
Electrical Engineer
Commercial Pilot Rating, since 1981
Navy Combat Systems Specialist: RADAR, ECM, cryptographic communications
Flight Data Recorder Engineer Smiths Aerospace
BA-609, IDARS, Military and Commercial
Millimeter wave RADAR and countermeasures expert since 1973
Two patents held for Doppler RADAR ( Kavouras ):
long pulsewidth RADAR droop compensation network,
and wave guide arc detection for high powered RADAR

Captain Hadi Rizvi
Flying 43 years
Courses on Accident Investgation
22 Years with Pakistan Air Force as fighter -Total about 3500 Hrs,
Types Flown: T-6G; T-37; T-33; F-86F/E, F-5; MirageIII/V; MIG-15; MIG-19, QFI
21 Years with PIA (Pakistan International Airlines) ~13000 Hrs
Types Flown: F-27; Boeing 737; Boeing 747; Airbus 310

Joseph F. Hamilton, III
BS: Aviation Technology/Avionics, Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, Daytona Beach, FL.
AS: Aviation Maintenance Technology, Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, Daytona Beach, FL.
FAA: Private Pilot: SEL
FAA: Airframe and Power plant Mechanic / 25 years
FAA: Inspection Authorization / 12 years
FCC: General Radio-telephone operator
IPC-A-610 Certified IPC Trainer
IPC-JSTD-001 Certified IPC Trainer

All listed here...
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/core

wink.gif

Posted by: painter Aug 19 2009, 03:25 PM

QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Aug 19 2009, 12:21 PM) *
ahem....

Jeff Latas
-Over 20 years in the USAF
--USAF Accident investigation Board President
--Flew the F-111, T38, and F-15E
--Combat experience in the F-15E includes Desert Storm and four tours of duty in Northern and Southern Watch
--Weapons Requirements Officer, USAF HQ, Pentagon
--Standard and Evaluations Flight Examiner, Command level
-Currently Captain for JetBlue Airways


George Nelson
Colonel USAF (Ret.)
30 year career managing aircraft maintenance activities
Licensed commercial pilot
Licensed airframe and powerplant mechanic
Aircraft accident investigator

Colonel Michael Harley USAF (ret)
Command pilot
~ 6000 Total Flight Time
T-38,T-33, T-37,T-39, C-47, U-6, Uh-1, C130A, B, E, &
prototype H, Kc-135 and B-52.
26 years commissioned. 34 Years total service USAF Accident Investigator
Instructor Accident Investigation, Embry-Riddle University

Management analyst and IG, simulator instructor,
Instructor Pilot, Standardization Evaluation Pilot,
Chief of Standardization of a Sac Wing equipped with B-52, RC-135 and Kc-135
Flew Cessna 177, Twin Bonanza, Cherokee-6
~200 hours as civilian private pilot
Newspaper columnist for 10 years, now a freelance writer


J. Randall Reinhardt
Commercial, Multi, Instrument, CFI, ATP,
Commercial Glider, Advanced/ Instrument Ground Instructor,
Turbojet Type Rating - Learjet
Flying since 1961,
8,000+ hours in civil, military and Part 25 Transport category aircraft
J.D. degree in 1972 ,
30 years practicing trial law, with a concentration in aviation related litigation,
including FAA Part 91, 135, 121 and 141 accidents and FAA/NTSB matters
Forensic Director for U.S. Aviation Forensics with 30 years experience in aircraft accident investigation.
Former FAA Accident Prevention Specialist
Former member U.S. Unlimited Aerobatic Team with unrestricted aerobatic waiver.

Dennis Cimino
Electrical Engineer
Commercial Pilot Rating, since 1981
Navy Combat Systems Specialist: RADAR, ECM, cryptographic communications
Flight Data Recorder Engineer Smiths Aerospace
BA-609, IDARS, Military and Commercial
Millimeter wave RADAR and countermeasures expert since 1973
Two patents held for Doppler RADAR ( Kavouras ):
long pulsewidth RADAR droop compensation network,
and wave guide arc detection for high powered RADAR

Captain Hadi Rizvi
Flying 43 years
Courses on Accident Investgation
22 Years with Pakistan Air Force as fighter -Total about 3500 Hrs,
Types Flown: T-6G; T-37; T-33; F-86F/E, F-5; MirageIII/V; MIG-15; MIG-19, QFI
21 Years with PIA (Pakistan International Airlines) ~13000 Hrs
Types Flown: F-27; Boeing 737; Boeing 747; Airbus 310

Joseph F. Hamilton, III
BS: Aviation Technology/Avionics, Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, Daytona Beach, FL.
AS: Aviation Maintenance Technology, Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, Daytona Beach, FL.
FAA: Private Pilot: SEL
FAA: Airframe and Power plant Mechanic / 25 years
FAA: Inspection Authorization / 12 years
FCC: General Radio-telephone operator
IPC-A-610 Certified IPC Trainer
IPC-JSTD-001 Certified IPC Trainer

All listed here...
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/core

wink.gif


NOW YOU SEE, there you go -- I GLADLY STAND CORRECTED ON THAT POINT!

Now if only our detractors were so willing to 'stand corrected' when the facts are presented.

thumbsup.gif

Posted by: dMole Aug 20 2009, 05:07 AM

QUOTE (Turbofan @ Aug 19 2009, 05:02 AM) *
Sorry if I'm coming across angry, but it pisses me off when members of the truth movement
attack valid data without researching first.

QUOTE (911research.wtc7.net)
Because there are so many accounts, 911Research has not thoroughly checked the excerpts against the sources to verify that each excerpt preserves the meaning apparent in its source. Readers are invited to do so and report any discrepancies to us. (See our contact information.)


CODE
911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/witnesses/index.html

Ummm, isn't that 2nd sentence exactly what CIT did, and I believe that Rob recently contacted/updated "the Hoff" from my recent research at the "faction."

Well, at least the "tabloid truther" Hoffmanites admit they have NOT done the research, but that didn't stop the multiple, repeated personal/organizational attacks of "disinformation" now did it? whistle.gif

F'n self-appointed "truth police" anyway. What's next- book burnings- driving a tractor over the CIT and P4T DVD's? (They could throw some Dixie Chicks CD's and the U.S. Constitution under there while they are at it) rolleyes.gif

Stay tuned- same Bat-time, same Bat-channel...

Also on Rob's correction to painter- I designed, installed/maintained, operated, and analyzed the output from data acquisition systems for acceptance testing and qualification of avionics and "other" systems on USAF, USN (and NASA) hardware (although this wasn't commercial Flight Data Recorders per se, I am no stranger to data analysis). I did my own independent "audit" of the NTSB-released SSFDR data (twice actually, due to a computer crash). The results are posted in many threads in a certain subforum around here "somewhere." rolleyes.gif My results were extremely close, if not identical to the conclusions reached earlier by P4T, speaking of the Scientific Method and verified evidence proper (as opposed to the personal attack "debunka" method currently being employed by certain "tabloid truthers.")

I am reminded of a quote- "Great minds talk about ideas, average minds talk about things, small minds talk about people."

Posted by: dMole Aug 20 2009, 08:42 PM

Here is a timeline of some notable events in Pentagon 9/11 research:

http://flickcabin.com/public/view/38278

http://flickcabin.com/public/view/full/38278



One should be able to see a pronounced increase in "activity" of the Hoffmanite "campaign" after the release of CIT's National Security Alert. If someone can think of a prominent date or release, just post them here and I can revise the timeline. This "activity" may also be related to Stefan's review of Arabesque's blogging campaign (mentioned in chek's post #21 above).

More about Stefan's review:

Stefan's Thoughts
http://z3.invisionfree.com/CIT/index.php?showtopic=636

Posted by: aerohead Aug 21 2009, 03:49 AM

This is too funny laughing1.gif

It seems to me to be a case of.................

"ive gotten myself in too deep and cant back out now
or ill suffer enormous public humiliation"

I seriously think it is above their heads. They obviously dont
understand aviation, physics of flight or put much weight on
eyewitness testimony. Even Pentagon Police officer testimony.

They dont understand that a 757, with its low hung engines, would have
been burying the engines up to the spinners in the lawn, causing the plane
to crash right there.............. if the awesome official video was real.

They also must not be familiar with the 1962 Operation Northwoods document
that called for using CIA operatives with alias' as passengers until the plane could
be swapped out for a drone and then destroyed over Cuba. Funny how the flights
on 9/11 were only 20% full, but normally ran over 80% .......... It would follow
logically that if they could do this in 1962........they could sure as hell do it in 2001.
So with plans like this in the past and the obvious cover up and confiscation of all video at the
Pentagon.......... i dont wanna hear anymore bullshit about disrespecting family
members of the deceased by questioning the impact of the plane.

But what is really sad here is that they don't realize that they are trying to discredit
one of the Truth movements greatest allies. We understand aviation, flight, G-forces,
black box info, autopilot operation and what disconnects it, radio altitude and an aircrafts
ability in general.


I watched all the videos that Rob sent me today with my co-worker, who has over 25yrs
experience wrenching on heavies (757,767,747,MD-11,A300 etc..) and he totally
agreed.......... the plane never hit the Pentagon.

Its ok Hoffman, Wolsey and the gang........ you CAN be big people and admit
you were wrong, we will forgive you and move on to unite the Truth movement
and bring Truth, Liberty and Justice to America.


-Aero

Posted by: aerohead Aug 21 2009, 12:03 PM

Some people dont understand that if you
cant fly this....................






You sure as hell cant fly THIS.................
and with fighter pilot accuracy ?
laughing1.gif



Posted by: painter Aug 21 2009, 12:08 PM

I've been meaning to do this for several days but keep getting distracted. I contacted Stefan and asked him if I could reproduce his blog posts here and he has given me permission to do so.

Source: http://twenty13.wordpress.com/2009/07/01/at-arabesques-request-are-we-citing-comfortably-then-lets-begin…/


At Arabesque’s Request: Are We CITing Comfortably? Then Let’s Begin…
July 1, 2009

NB: Since writing this article CIT have released the concise and comprehensive film which I recommend you watch after reading the article http://www.citizeninvestigationteam.com/nsa.html. Its release, and the further research I have done somewhat changes my position. I have been very cautious in the past regarding the Pentagon but I do now feel that it has been proved beyond a reasonable doubt that CIT’s view is essentially correct (there are still a few details we disagree on) and with a single film to put across this point we should begin promoting it as some of the best evidence we have. The previous fault with CIT, that for someone to fully understand the evidence you had to ask them to watch dozens of videos clips has now been solved, and there is really no excuse to keep ignoring this. I am including this forward note as the tone of the general article is a lot more cautious, and I no longer feel we need to be.


This article is a response to Arabesque’s request that I explain in detail my counterpoints against his arguments in opposition to the research of the Citizen Investigation Team (CIT). Arabesque is not by any means the only person who has been involved in attempting to debunk CIT, but his arguments are the most commonly repeated, reworded, regurgitated and linked to, so I am happy to meet his request and address them.

What I hope to achieve from writing this article is to explain why I do not personally reject the testimony of the 13 members of the public who have been documented by CIT. This is not about CIT; they are just the camera men, the editors and commentators. This is about real people, real eye witnesses, and whether or not they deserve their testimony to be run roughshod over in protection of a pre-decided position on the issue of the Pentagon. I am not demanding everyone agree with me and respect everyone’s right to their own opinion, but what I hope will come as a side effect is that some of the people who are not so tolerant might at least question their sense of certainty that these 13 witnesses deserve to be dismissed out of hand.

I still hold the same position I have for many years on the Pentagon – that there is far less ambiguous and easier to understand campaigning material and while research should be supported it should not be centre-stage of our evidence promotion efforts. Some seem to have taken an extremist position that the case is closed with the Pentagon, the official story is essentially correct and everyone should join them in denouncing any Pentagon researchers or expect to be defamed and attacked alongside them. I am writing this now as things seem to be getting out of hand. Genuine venom is being stirred up not just against CIT themselves but also against any other person who does not denounce them in lock-step. Terms such as “cult”, “disinfo”, “an operation” and “shilling” are being thrown around with abandon.

How did this happen? What is the argument for rejecting these witnesses and is the evidence that supports it really strong enough to justify making such incendiary accusations? These are questions I hope to explore in this article.

How Much Contradictory Testimony Equals VAST Amounts Of Contradictory Testimony?


It is best to get started with the key point, and the evidential issue on which CITs work is based: The North of Citgo approach. For the reader who has no foundation of knowledge regarding CITs work I will briefly explain:

The evidence CIT presents is largely in the shape of 13 eye witnesses they have tracked down from the areas around the Pentagon which would have had a clear view of where the plane flew and/or of the area of the alleged impact. These witnesses all corroborate each other very well within the reasonable margin of error that must be accepted due to the fallibility of memory. In most cases they describe an approach crossing from the south to the north side of Columbia Pike, directly over the Navy Annex and to the North of the Citgo Gas Station (as it was named then and as it will be referred to in this article). All of the 13 witnesses testify to a North of Citgo flight path with utter certainty and are rigorously questioned on every detail during the interview. When the interview is in person, rather than over the phone, they stand in the spot the person was on the day and ask them to draw an estimated line on a map of the area. They are told that others place the plane on the other side of Citgo and do not waver or show any uncertainty. From actually watching these witnesses and seeing the level of questioning and attention to detail that goes into each interview, a very compelling case is made for the plane having flown on the flight path that these witnesses collectively but independently indicate. After all, while it would be a super human memory which could recall to the exact metre where the plane flew, very few people’s memory would be so bad as to mistake left and right, especially not when standing in the exact place it happened.

From the people who demand that these witnesses be ignored and all those who mention them be castigated, you will not find a clear explanation as to why these people were all wrong in such a similar way. Instead you find an argument, which is the central pillar of Arabesques opposition to this research, that there is a VAST body of testimony that directly contradicts these witnesses. There is so much contradictory testimony, the claim goes, that whatever these other witnesses said is quite irrelevant. On the back of this claim he paints a picture of CIT simply ignoring or dismissing this huge body of testimony (often described as hundreds) in order to focus in on just the 13 witnesses they have. This is a commonly repeated claim in certain circles of the online 9/11 truth community, and is surely the source for much of the venom directed both at CIT and those who do not condemn them. But how much truth is there behind it?

In this article I will dissect this alleged tidal wave of dynamite contradictory testimony. I will ultimately argue that it does not exist; it is a carefully constructed illusion obscuring the very underwhelming body of admissible evidence in Arabesque’s possession.

When it comes to actual testimony regarding the flight path of the plane all he has actually presented in terms of directly contradictory descriptions are six snippets of testimony. These scraps of text appear to contradict the CIT witnesses by placing the plane going over the I-395. Of course this flight path does not perfectly match the official one either, but if they were on the portion of that road which is south of the official flight path then it is fair to say what they described is closer to the official story than not. Arabesque lists six unconfirmed media quotes from six individuals. However, two of them are categorised as “unidentified”; this does not meet my standard of evidence but it may meet yours, so I include all six and allow you to make your own mind up which ones to recognise:

1. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As we were driving into town on 395, there was an exit. We were trying to get off of the exit for the Memorial Bridge. On the left-hand side, there was a commercial plane coming in, and was coming in too fast and the[n?] too low, and the next thing we saw was [it?] go-down below the side of the road… coming down towards the side of the—of 395. And when it came down, it just missed 395 and went down below us” [Barbara]

2. I had just passed the closest place the Pentagon is to the exit on 395… we realized the jet was coming up behind us on that major highway. And it veered to the right into the Pentagon. [PNAC signatory Gary Bauer)

3. “coming straight at us from over the road (Columbia Pike) that runs perpendicular to the road I was on. The plane just appeared there—very low in the air, to the side of (and not much above) the CITGO gas station…[note: this statement is ambiguous as to whether it was N. or S. of the gas station but…] then it banked in the slightest turn in front of me, toward the heliport.” [Penny Elgas]

4. “I was right underneath the plane, said Kirk Milburn, a construction supervisor for Atlantis Co., who was on the Arlington National Cemetery exit of Interstate 395.” [Kirk Milburn]

5. “I watched it come in very low over the trees and it just dipped down and came down right over 395 right into the Pentagon.” [Don Wright]

6. “The plane flew very low over his car and hit the building and blew his windows out of the vehicle and he’s on interstate 395.” [UNIDENTIFIED PENTAGON WORKER]


So how many witnesses to a South of Citgo approach did you count? Six or Four? Personally I counted three.

In the testimony of Penny Elgas it is perfectly plausible that she is describing the same flight path that the witnesses interviewed by CIT attested to. In that testimony it crosses over the Navy Annex (which Columbia Pike runs next to) then to the North of Citgo before banking and powering towards the Pentagon. If Penny was on the part of I-395 south of the official flight path then from her side-on and restricted view, it would be difficult to tell if it was over the Navy Annex, or just clear of it to her side, and it is far from clear which side of the Citgo it flies on, as even Arabesque notes. “Coming straight at us” could support the South side claim certainly, just as the bank of the plane as it approaches the building that so many witnesses mention is not compatible with the South side claim but a key feature of the North. There is no proof that this testimony is one thing or the other, yet this is one sixth of Arabesque’s claim of VAST contradictory evidence?

It is a true demonstration of Arabesque’s desperation that he includes two unnamed witnesses and one who can scarcely be described as a definite South side witness to amass a grand total of six scraps of testimony, which when interrogated quickly deflates to a potential three. The CIT evidence is more impressive both in numbers of witnesses and in the nature of the testimony itself.

I should not have to explain why I do not consider these accounts to be sufficient evidence to make a claim for any flight path. With the exception of Milburn we don’t know where they were exactly (I-395 is a very long road), where they were facing, and there is no way for us to verify any of it. In the case of the unconfirmed ‘Barbara’ we see a reference to the Memorial Bridge, which is on 110 and not I-395 so we cannot even be sure she is even generally where she is claimed to be. We cannot ask a cherry-picked snippet of a quote from Penny Elgas to draw a line on a map showing where she feels the plane went, we can’t ask her if it was on the far side or near side of the gas station. While to a rational researcher interested in finding the facts these offerings are next to useless, they are very useful to Arabesque himself, who can simply claim they show what he wants them to show.

To attempt to position these sound bites, mostly media-mined, as being equal in quality to CIT’s interviews is laughable, and Arabesque knows it. This is why Arabesques entire tactic of argument in this issue is one of quantity over quality. He knows he cannot beat the quality of CIT’s witnesses, he also knows if people actually watch these witnesses for themselves, they will get the picture pretty quickly. Instead he contrives to throw every scrap of a quote which could remotely be described as contradicting CIT at his readers to create an illusion that these 13 witnesses are a tiny minority, and not even worth paying attention to.

But in reality, when we look for testimony directly contradicting the North of Citgo approach we have three snippets from media reports on Arabesque’s side, which in fact raise more questions than they answer, against 13 confirmed and verified witnesses on CIT’s. Yet many avid readers of Arabesque’s work claim with uniformity and the utter certainty that comes from only hearing one side of the story, that it is the complete other way around: that CIT have a tiny number of witnesses while “over a hundred” witnesses support the South side flight path. This is largely because, as I have demonstrated above and will demonstrate further, Arabesque does not like to play fair.

Abara Kadabara!

Arabesque’s Magic Trick Turns 3 In To 103 Before Our Very Eyes!


There is something that should be noted right away: many of the CIT witnesses who were in a position to see both the plane and the area of the Pentagon which was physically damaged believe that the plane hit the building. What CIT are proposing, metaphorically speaking, is “sleight of hand”.

The basic notion is that as the plane reached the building a large smoke heavy explosion came from the bottom floor, both the smoke and fireball of which would draw any witnesses attention for long enough for the plane to be long gone. CIT suggest that if you saw a plane fly low and fast towards a building then the next second the plane is gone and there’s a huge explosion – your mind tells you the one caused the other. Now there is a lot to discuss about that idea both for and against this, I am not immune to the serious problems this theory must contend with, but that will have to wait. What is immediately interesting is that Arabesque seems to make out that he does not recognise or understand the concept of sleight of hand at all; instead he claims that what CIT are proposing is Mass Hallucination:

“To understand just how absurd the arguments of CIT are, you have to understand that the flyover theory is actually endorsing mass hallucination as a plausible explanation for 100’s of witnesses claiming to have seen a plane hit the Pentagon.

Again, who believes in mass hallucination here? Please don’t raise your hands all at once. It is completely baffling to me the number of people duped by this ridiculous line of “reasoning”.”


To believe that Arabesque is really baffled is to believe he is stupid and that is one thing I would never say about him.

Or maybe I’m being unkind? Maybe he really doesn’t understand the concept of an illusion? Maybe when he sees a rabbit pulled from a hat he thinks someone has spiked his drink? Perhaps when he sees a lady get “sawn in half” and wiggle her toes he thinks he put the wrong kind of mushroom in his pasta sauce? Is it possible he really thinks magic tricks are hallucinations? No of course not. He is simply employing an argument to incredulity, one of the cheapest and most childish of all the logical fallacies. It is clear he knows what sleight of hand is; indeed he clearly has a trick or two up his own sleeve:

Watch the hands, watch the hands:

It’s a claim I can show a hundred witnesses contradicting the North of Citgo flight path…

It’s a claim I can show a hundred witnesses contradicting the North of Citgo flight path…

It’s a claim I can show a hundred witnesses contradicting the North of Citgo flight path…

It’s a claim I can show a hundred witnesses saying the plane hit the building…


WOW! Did you see that? How did he do that? He must have been hiding that completely different claim in his big top hat along with his white rabbit and a bunch of paper flowers…

Considering that in both CIT’s scenario and in his own the witnesses to the event would believe they saw the plane hit the building Arabesque’s conjuring of these hundred quotes is a non-event. It is completely baffling to me the number of people duped by this ridiculous line of “reasoning”. By a simple repositioning of testimony that the plane hit the building as a contradiction of the North of Citgo flight path he has managed to add another hundred to his list of “contradictory witnesses”. Talk about sleight of hand; 3 witnesses to 103 witnesses in the blink of an eye.

Or should I say 102? Because while these supposed contradicting witnesses were a non-event, one of them was actually a non-witness. What I will demonstrate here is sadly the first signs of something of a trend throughout Arabesque’s writing on CIT:

One of his witnesses Rev. Henry Ticknor was simply not there. You will notice that this is not testimony at all but is in third person, much like the unidentified Pentagon worker who supposedly witnessed a south side approach:

“[the plane flew] fast and low over his car and struck the Pentagon.”

But it is simply not true, as he explains in a sermon:

“I never said the plane came in fast and low over my car, as I was five miles from the point of impact.”

http://www.uushenandoah.org/sermons/050501.htm


I could go on, I could talk about how just like Henry’s “quote” many on the list of a hundred Arabesque presents are written in the third person and therefore not eye witness testimony at all. I could even go in to a lengthy explanation of how due to obstacles and topology many of the people quoted would not have seen the point of “impact” at all from their positions. But what’s the point? A belief that the plane hit the Pentagon does not contradict a north of Citgo flight path and therefore all Arabesque has to his name are the three unconfirmed reports he started with. Certainly not enough for me to ignore the CIT witnesses as many seem to expect me to.

What would influence me? Well those people seeing the light poles hit certainly lend credence to the South side theory, since it is on that flight path that the light poles were.

Illuminating The Muddy Waters Of Arabesque’s Light Pole Claims


Regarding the light poles Arabesque has again employed his philosophy of quantity over quality and dazzled the reader with 20 different apparent quotes from eyewitnesses saying they saw the planes hit the light poles. Now unconfirmed, unquestioned and unverified they may be but I cannot just reject 20 different people claiming the same thing can I? Of course not, but based a commitment to a standard of evidence somewhat lacking in those who buy Arabesque’s CIT arguments what I will do is look properly into this list. Because as we have seen, with Arabesque things aren’t always as they seem.

From looking closely at each of the quotes in Arabesque’s list, problems immediately appear, for a start 5 of them are not eyewitness testimony quotes but written in the third person. My research into what these witnesses actually claimed failed to find any mention from Penny Elgas of light poles, let alone them being knocked over by the plane: http://www.geocities.com/someguyyoudontknow33/witnesses.htm

The quote Arabesque uses is not even from her testimony, it’s a flowery write up from the web page for a collection of 9/11 artefacts for a collection at the National Museum of American History, and is clearly a case of describing her experience within the context of the sanctioned official story: http://americanhistory.si.edu/september11/collection/record.asp?ID=28

While this is some particularly lazy research on Arabesque’s behalf, when we dip a little deeper into the pool, how murky the waters are becomes immediately apparent:

Lee Evey was not even a Pentagon witness. The quote is from the Detroit News although the webpage is now down; he was the manager of the Pentagon’s renovation (both before and after 9/11) and was describing what was supposed to have happened at the Pentagon to a journalist as part of a report on the construction.

Don Fortunato was not there either; he simply came across the scene of Lloyde’s cab after the event, as he explained pretty clearly on the mainstream news: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImJ0NxZX2wI&feature=PlayList&p=C9ADE095D1754C17&index=10

Also not there was Tom Hovis http://www.beanerbanner.com/a_father____.htm

So of the twenty unconfirmed media reports Arabesque presents us five are not even quotes and three of them are verifiably not even witnesses and the following two could only be taken as light pole witnesses by a mind utterly desperate to see them as such:

“I saw debris flying. I guess it was hitting light poles.” is hardly convincing from Kirk Milburn especially since he would have heard that the plane hit light poles.

To count Terry Morin as a light pole witness on the strength of “As the aircraft approached the Pentagon, I saw a minor flash (later found out that the aircraft had sheared off a portion of a highway light pole down on Hwy 110.” is weak even by Arabesque’s standards. And that is without taking into account the fact that CIT have interviewed Morin and confirmed he was at the Navy Annex and could not possibly have seen the light poles.

In fact of all of these accounts only two actually refer directly to having seen the plane hit a light pole and one of them is unnamed:

“I saw it clip a light pole.” – Unnamed Navy Admiral

“I saw the wing of the plane clip the light post, and it made the plane slant.” – Wanda Ramey


So really we just have Wanda Ramey. Contrary to claims that they ignore testimony which does not fit their theory, CIT did to contact her to try and confirm or deny this. It’s a difficult interview to listen to as she is clearly not in a right state of mind and while she says she thinks the plane did hit the light pole she does say there is nothing she is certain of regarding that day.

http://www.thepentacon.com/WRamey.mp3

Of the others, two do not appear to be describing light poles hit at all, but other objects with Bruce Elliot saying it hit a guide wire, and Kat Gaines saying it hit a telegraph pole. None of them say they saw it hit a light pole, but simply refer to it having hit a light pole, meaning it is entirely plausible they are adding what they heard happened to what they saw happened, which is known as deduction and very common in eye witness statements.

You may not believe this, but there is evidence for it in this very list:

“The plane clipped the top of a light pole just before it got to us, injuring a taxi driver, whose taxi was just a few feet away from my car. – Steven McGraw

That sounds like he definitely saw a light pole clipped right? Who would doubt that?

Anyone who has actually seen CIT’s films, that’s who. They have interviewed him, and here is what a little light questioning actually reveals:

“I didn’t actually see the light pole go over or anything, no, I later saw the evidence of the pole having been knocked over”

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5085491450059007792&hl=en


In fact every single witness who has in the past been accredited with a claim to have seen the plane striking light poles down who were later interviewed at length by CIT admitted they did not. Sgt. Chadwick Brooks is another example of this, and Sgt Lagasse’s mention of light poles I will come to the latter shortly as there is much to be said about Arabesque’s arguments against his testimony.

This is why the CIT method of confirmation, verification and questioning is so important. Little scraps of media-mined testimony such as the evidence presented against CIT by Arabesque cannot be considered a match for a proper on-site interview; especially when so much of it is not even a quote but a description in third person of what that person saw written by someone else; especially when just a little research can demonstrate many of those on Arabesque’s lists were not even witnesses to the event, in some cases being miles away.

Once again, we are essentially where we started with three snippets potentially supporting a South of Citgo approach, and now one potentially supporting a light pole strike. This is what Arabesque’s VAST body of contradictory testimony actually looks like when you apply a little critical thinking and fact-checking.

If I can discover this with just a little research, what does it say about the standards of evidence of the man who presents these as though they are a stone cold reason we should outright ignore the 13 CIT witnesses? And what does it say of the critical faculties of people who run around the internet claiming that the CIT witnesses are a tiny minority among “hundreds” of contradictory testimony?


To be continued . . .

Posted by: painter Aug 21 2009, 12:19 PM

At this point in Stefan's blog post from July 1, 2009, he begins to discuss "The Lagasse Deception". However, he later posted an updated version of this discussion. The original, although grayed, is still available at the source linked at the top of the previous post if anyone is interested. For the purpose of saving a bit of space, I'm going to forego that and include the updated version at this point before returning to the copy and paste of the 7/1/09 blog.

The source for this section is here: http://twenty13.wordpress.com/2009/07/14/appologies-to-arabesque-for-mistaking-one-deception-for-another/

Appologies To Arabesque For Mistaking One Deception For Another
July 14, 2009

In Arabesque’s rush to respond to an article he still appears to be refusing to admit to recognising, it appears I missed an earlier response to something I had written. In this post Arabesque was claiming I had deceptively misinterpreted his argument and dishonestly erected a straw man.

People who disagree with Arabesque don’t make mistakes; they lie.

Essentially the bone of contention was that I had interpreted this:

Of these eyewitnesses interviewed by CIT, William Lagasse falsely indicated where light poles were knocked down, while denying that others were knocked down. Amazingly, CIT implies that this does not affect the reliability of his flight path account—in fact, Ranke brazenly and disingenuously claims that it makes his testimony about the flight path even more credible:

“Why should he remember where the light poles were knocked down when he told us that he DID NOT SEE THE LIGHT POLES? Of course he would believe that the light poles/physical damage that he DID NOT SEE (or read reports on after the fact) would line up with the flight path of the plane that he DID SEE! That only serves to prove how certain he is of where he saw the plane.”

How could Lagasse “not see the light poles” as Ranke suggests if he claimed that “there was a light pole here that was knocked down [pointing to an incorrect location]… none of these light poles over here were knocked down”—a false statement? If Lagasse didn’t see or remember seeing these light poles on the ground on 9/11, he presumably would have replied “I don’t know”, instead of “none of these light poles… were knocked down”. Lagasse also misplaced the location of the taxi cab to the location where he thought the light poles were knocked down. This factual error strongly suggests that Lagasse witnessed the plane where the actual light poles were knocked down—not where he mistakenly thought they were knocked down. Along with incorrectly placing the location of the damaged Taxi Cab and light poles, at the very least this puts the accuracy of his “smoking gun” testimony in doubt.


To be an argument that Laggasse had seen the light poles hit and claimed the wrong ones were hit.

My apologies to Arabesque, as reading back I can see he is referencing them being on the ground, perhaps I was hindered in my reading by the comedic over-use of bold, italic, and coloured text he uses to make sure his readers focus on the bits of the quotes he finds most important?

But I can put my hands up and admit I was wrong. I was certainly not deceptive – what would be the point in that as anyone could show me to be in error? A question I will soon be asking of Arabesque regarding this topic…

I wish I had not made this mistake, not because I have a problem owning up to a mistake, but because if I had read him correctly my argument against his point would have been so much simpler in the first place.

Where might I have got the idea that he was talking about Ranke referring to Lagasse seeing the light poles clipped rather than the light poles on the ground?

I will tell you now – the origin of my mistake was to actually click on the footnotes and links and check what they are saying in context when I read a blog or an article. Fact checking is obviously a bad habit of mine that can lead me to making all kinds of mistakes. When I got to that part of Arabesque’s article I clicked on the discussion he was quoting and read it before reading on.

The part of the conversation Arabesque has quoted is Craig Ranke repeating a point he had made and shortening it, which is pretty normal in forum posting. In his first post to someone claiming Lagasse had seen the poles clipped Ranke explains in a lot more detail:

LeftBehind,

In the email you posted Lagasse simply states that the light poles were clipped not that he SAW them get clipped.

If you had watched his testimony during our film you can see that he was quite clear about the fact that he did NOT see any light poles get clipped.

Sgt Brooks cleared this up for us as well. He had said in a past interview that he saw the light poles get clipped. However he clarified to us that he, like Lagasse, did NOT see any poles get clipped and merely deduced this after the fact from seeing the poles on the ground.


Then a few posts later he re-states the same thing again, in short hand:

Why should he remember where the light poles were knocked down when he told us that he DID NOT SEE THE LIGHT POLES?

Of course he would believe that the light poles/physical damage that he DID NOT SEE (or read reports on after the fact) would line up with the flight path of the plane that he DID SEE!

That only serves to prove how certain he is of where he saw the plane.


The second quote is the one Arabesque uses. In the context of this thread (both posts are on the same page) it is obvious that when Ranke says he did not see the light poles that he means he did not see the light poles clipped. He has already stated on the same page that Lagasse saw them on the ground. If anything this deception is MORE dishonest than the last. He is taking a claim by Ranke that Lagasse did not see the plane hit the light poles and presenting it as a claim that Lagasse did not see them on the ground, when on the exact same page we have Ranke explicitly stating that Lagasse DID see the poles on the ground. And he has the gall to call me dishonest? Is it any wonder I misunderstood his statement, when you consider that I had read the source material for his claim and within its context what he was actually claiming, and what he claims I misrepresented, is a blatant lie?

So, Arabesque, I apologise unreservedly for mistaking your deception for quite a different deception. To be honest they do have a lot in common with each other – they both rely completely on the readers of his blog not being the sort of people who follow the footnotes and click on the links. If they do that the house of cards comes crashing down pretty quickly.

I will end on the key evidential point:

When Lagasse was asked about the light poles he stated the ones he thought were knocked down were the ones on the flight path he saw – which is completely natural and does speak to his certainty that the plane was on that path.

When asked whether he saw the light poles get clipped he said no but when he arrived on the scene they were down.

This could mean, as both Ranke and Arabesque assume, that he saw one on the ground. Or it could mean he was told they were down.

Either way it makes no difference to Lagasse’s reliability as an eye witness.

Just look at the map and note where the nearest light pole (the one he would have seen when he arrived at the scene) is compared to where the North of Citgo flight path is.

http://jabbajoo.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c0ac653ef01156fb40f3f970b-600wi

It would not be a “mistake” at all to consider a plane flying where he saw it fly would leave a light pole lying where it lay. If he did see a downed pole “at the scene” it would be the nearest one, which is so close to the North of Citgo flight path he would have to be some kind of a spatial awareness genius to conclude something didn’t line up right.

But when a witness says something that doesn’t conform with Arabesque’s preferred theory, that appears to be the criteria for dismissing them…

Posted by: painter Aug 21 2009, 12:26 PM

I return now, to the concluding sections of the original 7/1/09 blog post by Stefan:


The Flyover


This is the controversial part and I was tempted not to cover it, but within the context of this article it would be expected that I do. I would like to say that I am not 100% behind the flyover, but the truth is I simply find it very hard to see any other explanation. When you realise there is in fact next to nothing in the way of reliable eye witness confirmation of a South of Citgo flight path (once the chaff is stripped away amounting essentially to four unconfirmed scraps of testimony), and the testimony in support of a North of Citgo path continues to mount, the issue of the physical evidence becomes a serious problem. Needless to say, if the plane flew to the North of Citgo then it cannot have hit the light poles, and equally problematic its landing gear or anything else cannot have made that almost perfectly round hole in the C-ring.

Perhaps there is an explanation other than the flyover, and if those who opposed the (admittedly counter-intuitive) flyover theory actually engaged honestly with the evidence and provided some ideas then I would be all ears. Believe me, even for me, in possession of all the evidence not just the edited evidence Arabesque has decided to share with his readers, it still sounds ridiculous. If it is true then perhaps this was the point of it?

There are obviously some serious questions about the flyover, which I accept are rational, but I would rather people asked in an honest fashion (i.e. with an indication that they were interested in finding the answers), rather than as a part of an argument to incredulity.

Why would they not just fly the plane into the building?

What possible motive for such a complicated and high risk deception?

Why are there not hundreds of explicit witnesses to the event?

There is a highway on the far side of the building; surely they would all see this?


Yes, I’ve thought all these questions myself and I do not think they have been fully answered. But a priori objections such as these are not a rational basis on which to reject confirmed, verified and interrogated eye witness testimony. We need to look further into this testimony, not ignore it. Is there some way the testimony is compatible with any theory other than the flyover? Are there any eye witnesses we can verify and confirm to contradict that testimony? Are there answers to these questions which would explain how a flyover might be possible? These are the questions we should be asking, not avoiding.

What you will not have heard if your sole source of information on CIT is Arabesque is that there is a modest but growing body of evidence which would support the notion of a flyover, which I will disseminate here:

1) As verified by CIT in 2008, Roosevelt Roberts Jr. stated in 2001 that he saw a large commercial airliner at less than 100 feet above the ground flying away from the Pentagon seconds after the alleged impact. It is hard to listen to his testimony and come to any conclusion other than that he is a flyover witness, especially since he first gave this testimony just weeks after the event, and a large commercial jet liner is a hard thing to mistake.

2) In 2001 Erik Dihle stated that many witnesses around him said that the Pentagon was hit by a bomb attack and the plane kept on going showing that whatever perception ending up being reported, people on the scene did indeed report exactly the scenario that CIT have been forwarding. http://www.thepentacon.com/neit426.mp3

3) More of an interesting note: the 911 calls and transcripts of what people reported immediately have been confiscated and permanently sequestered by the FBI. In New York they were released. Why the reticence to show what the public were actually saying about what they saw happened before they were told what had happened? Erik Dihle’s above testimony could shed some light on the reasons for this.

3) [sic] While there have been reports in the media that the C-130 pilot witnessed the attack, there is video, photographic, and eyewitness evidence as well as the word of the actual pilot Lt Col Steve O’Brien to demonstrate beyond a doubt that the C-130 was not in the area until about 3 minutes after the attack. Could the C-130 which was witnessed by many around the time of the Pentagon event have been used as a cover story to convince witnesses who thought the plane continued that they were seeing this second plane instead? Could this explain the false claims that the C-130 was “shadowing” the attack jet when we know it was not?

4) In a very similar vein could people seeing the plane over Washington have had the plane they witnessed “explained away” by the later appearance of the “Doomsday Plane” which was verified and photographed circling Washington (staying for so long in such sensitive airspace that it seemed to be begging people to photograph and confirm it)? The first reports of a white plane over Washington were in fact immediately after the Pentagon attack. The Doomsday Plane was actually reported some time later although the two different sightings and two different times were later clumsily merged in the official narrative.

However cynical you may be of the fly-over theory, I hope that you at least accept that these facts are food for thought, and go some way towards answering the awkward questions that come to our minds when considering the flyover theory.

In Closing…


Having promised Arabesque this response within “a few days”, and having only found small pockets of spare time to work on this article over a busy two weeks, I will close up for now. I may not have responded to every single erroneous claim of Arabesque’s but have shown clearly the principle reasons for my position on CIT: The supposed “hundreds” of witnesses contradicting a North of Citgo flight path do not exist, while the 13 independently verified CIT witnesses clearly do. I hope an open and honest debate can begin and this can be discussed maturely and we can cover every topic in detail. I also hope that Craig Ranke and Aldo Marquis will be allowed to return to truthaction.org forums to present their own counterarguments to criticisms of their work.

I want to remind the reader of my aims here. I am not aiming to prove that CIT’s flyover theory is correct, or even that the North of Citgo flight path is correct. I am not saying that just because McGraw and Brooks both sounded like witnesses to the plane hitting the light poles and turned out with a little investigation to be nothing of the sort, that the same can be assumed of the others. What I would expect is for people who claim these witnesses definitely did see light poles struck by a plane to be putting similar efforts to CIT in to confirm and verify this. I accept the remote possibility that all 13 CIT witnesses could be so drastically wrong in the same way; while it is extremely unlikely it is technically possible, but it is certainly not a claim that can be made flippantly. Such a fantastical claim is so against the odds that I would expect at the very least for those who forward it to apply the same rigour CIT have in confirming it.

Instead we have been presented with an extremely small body of extremely weak evidence dressed up as an extremely large body of extremely weak evidence. Neither would cut it for me.

Despite his claim that CIT are doing the same, Arabesque’s entire argument is a protracted and drawn-out appeal for his readers to apply (in Arabesque’s trade mark, bolded, italic and coloured text) special pleading. CIT are not telling you to ignore any testimony, indeed they are asking you to do what they have done and to look into these witnesses of Arabesque’s properly, to check they were there, to check the quotes are actually testimony, to check what they appear to be claiming in a cherry picked quote is what they were actually claiming. It is Arabesque whose argument is to try and create an illusion that CIT’s witnesses are such an extreme minority, and on the back of that illusion expecting you to ignore them, or more accurately to take his word on what they do and do not say. As I have shown the second you actually watch CIT’s videos Arabesque’s distortions and dishonesty are immediately apparent.

Those who have allowed themselves to be convinced of a position whereby the meat and bones of the official story at the Pentagon (i.e. that the plane did fly on the official flight path and did hit the light poles and the building, albeit with different perpetrators behind the crime) should consider that the CIT gathered testimony is not by a long shot the only problem with the official story in this area, to name just a few:

1) There are the big questions posed by the various sets of data released by the government and the contradictions they show both between each other and with eye witness testimony. British researcher Calum Douglas received an animated allegedly created from the flight data via FOIA request that contradicted the official flight path, after giving it to Pilots for 9/11Truth they received a spreadsheet of the full flight data which again contradicted the official flight path and also contained contradictions with the animation. Both sets of data end when the plane is way short of the Pentagon. The RADES data showed the C-130 flying a flight path no witness ascribed to it, and is a contradiction with the pilot’s own testimony about where he flew. The flight data and radar is an inconclusive and contradictory mess. Why would this be if the official story is essentially correct?

2) Referring to the flight data Pilots for 9/11 Truth has claimed that from the last position of the plane, even taking a debunkers view of the lowest possible altitude, the G-force exerted on the plane in order for it to level out to match the CCTV footage of it flying low and level would make the official scenario impossible.

3) Steve Chaconas, another key CIT witness has the plane flying a completely different path, over the river from Washington. This not only confirms early reports of the plane’s flight path, and recorded communications between air traffic controllers regarding the plane, it was even a flight path shown for the plane in an early National Geographic documentary on 9/11, and was described in an early statement to the press by White House spokesman Ari Fleischer.

4) There are both multiple reports and recorded audio and visual evidence of more than one explosion after the initial event at the Pentagon.

5) The classic problem with the Pentagon is the fact that the CCTV footage has never been fully disclosed. We know that there were out-facing CCTV cameras on the walls of the Pentagon, including the face which was attacked which would surely clear the controversy up for once and for all? So why not just release it if the official story is essentially correct?

Whatever Arabesque and others may contrive to convince you of, the Pentagon is not a closed book; it is not true that there is “nothing to see here”. I am not proposing that people start going out campaigning on a topic which is still as inconclusive as the Pentagon, but neither do I think we should throw in the towel. Research must continue on every area and every point of 9/11 in the hope that one day we amass so much evidence that the truth is undeniable to even the most irrational official conspiracy theorist. I don’t need to remind anyone that regardless of claims that we have enough evidence already, 9/11 truth is still a minority position.

Regardless, the bigger question to ask is where we are going if we submit to the policy of PR before honesty, and image before truth? I believe that Arabesque is acting from a misguided good intention; he seems to have convinced himself that he is some kind of protector of the truth movement and will attack without provocation anything he thinks could be bad PR. And every dishonest, manipulative and misleading trick in the debating book is fair game because supposedly the ends justify the means.

Have we forgotten that the truth has its own value, and that the people have a right to know? Are we becoming everything we got behind the cause of 9/11 truth to fight? When we start closing down on areas of research we feel we damage our credibility are we really so different to Noam Chomsky and all of the other left wing commentators who have closed down on 9/11 Truth wholesale for the exact same reasons?

Attempting to protect the credibility of the left-wing mainstream peace movement, Chomsky famously said “who cares if 9/11 was an inside job?” Do we really want to join him in a misguided attempt to protect the credibility of 9/11 Truth by saying “who cares what happened at the Pentagon?” And do we need to be reminded that many of the families of the innocent people who died there most definitely do?

I end this with a call for people who publicly oppose CIT to be honest with themselves, even if they can’t be honest publicly, and admit they have not watched all of their videos, read their articles or looked properly at their own (far more detailed than mine) responses to Arabesque and others. Several of the most vocal “debunkers” of CIT have admitted to me that they have not reviewed their work for themselves but “trust” Arabesque based on his past record, essentially letting someone else do their thinking for them. Others have admitted to only having seen the first film, which is now several years old and represents a third of their evidence.

Einstein once said:

“Condemnation without investigation is the highest form of ignorance”


If everyone followed this philosophy then there would be no one in the world who rejected the notion that 9/11 was a false flag operation. 9/11 activists should know better.


This ends Stefan's blog post from July 1, 09. Comments at the source are also worthy of some attention.

Posted by: Omega892R09 Aug 24 2009, 12:27 PM

QUOTE (aerohead @ Aug 19 2009, 05:49 AM) *
They dont understand that a 757, with its low hung engines, would have
been burying the engines up to the spinners in the lawn, causing the plane
to crash right there.............. if the awesome official video was real.

I know exactly where you are coming from there, been obvious to me from the moment I heard the OCT. My 20+ years of hands on aviation experience tells me this.

QUOTE
They also must not be familiar with the 1962 Operation Northwoods document...

Listening to the interview made me wonder if it really was the same Jim Hoffman who made this:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5721945375919981724

so hesitant was he when it came to technical stuff like the final altitude on the P4 presentation from released FDR data.

Any chance the interview is a spoof? So astonished am I that Hoffman of all people could behave like this!

I have been trying to reply here for awhile but my connection dies frequently.

QUOTE
...i dont wanna hear anymore bullshit about disrespecting family
members of the deceased by questioning the impact of the plane.

That is the lowest trick of all one all too often used by OCT believers and promoters from 'Outrageous Conspiracy Theories' Bush on.

Posted by: Omega892R09 Aug 24 2009, 12:43 PM

QUOTE (aerohead @ Aug 19 2009, 02:03 PM) *
Some people dont understand that if you
cant fly this....................

You sure as hell cant fly THIS.................
and with fighter pilot accuracy ?
laughing1.gif

Heck I have never flown heavy metal for real (unless you count 5-10 minutes hands on in a Hunter T8) but I know how easy it is to break even a military jet by pulling the wrong maneuver, having had to fix Hunters, Sea Vixens and F4ks afterwards, some pilots were damned lucky to get away with it.

Then I have trouble with a Sea Vixen on MS flight simm let alone a 757 which breaks if you sneeze while diving. Both MS flight simm and google are a bit coy on detail around the Pentagon (the Pentagon isn't even drawn on GoogleMap) any chance of flying the exact course from the P4T material on a flight simm is out, unless somebody know a source of acurate terrain mapping for that can be loaded in.

Its been interesting flying a virtual Sea Vixen around The States though using IFR, getting a handle on the geography more as much as anything else. Following Goosenecks at 50 feet and 400 knots is fun though.

Pity I am not fit enough to do it for real anymore.

It is interesting to note that the Hoff has stayed away from this thread. Is it really him in that interview?

Posted by: woody Aug 24 2009, 03:18 PM

Well my take is that these gentlemen were shocked that CIT/P4T now enjoy the endorsement of 9/11 heavyweight Richard Gage (his is the most important one because he hasn't done it before).

You have to understand the gentlemen (and the lady). Losing more and more ground, they HAD TO react and kick off a campaign.

Posted by: aerohead Aug 24 2009, 06:27 PM

Omega,

Its ridiculous ! Isnt it ?

And even if we disregard the engines being buried,
what about pulling out of the dive ?

The only thing that could have saved that
imaginary plane from not making a smoking hole in
the lawn from the dive.........was if the engines suddenly
turned into the space shuttle booster rockets........ laughing1.gif



bs_flag.gif



Aerodynamics, Gravity and Momentum are funny like that.

Posted by: Killtown Aug 24 2009, 06:31 PM

Just for the record, I think it is Jim Hoffman who is pushing disinformation and it is my opinion he is a paid shill.

I mean he still thinks Flight 93 was shoot down, even though no witnesses on the ground reported seeing a large aircraft in the air being hit or breaking up or smoking, then believes it crashed in the Shanksville field and left wing and tail marks in the ground, but didn't burn any of the grass around the crater and no debris was seen leading up to the crater (which would have happened if a plane was shot down before the crater).

Truthers who go around calling theories "hoaxes," or seem to spend most of their time trying to debunk other truther's theories should be suspect IMO.

Posted by: JimMac Aug 24 2009, 09:06 PM

QUOTE (Killtown @ Aug 24 2009, 06:31 PM) *
Just for the record, I think it is Jim Hoffman who is pushing disinformation and it is my opinion he is a paid shill.

I mean he still thinks Flight 93 was shoot down, even though no witnesses on the ground reported seeing a large aircraft in the air being hit or breaking up or smoking, then believes it crashed in the Shanksville field and left wing and tail marks in the ground, but didn't burn any of the grass around the crater and no debris was seen leading up to the crater (which would have happened if a plane was shot down before the crater).

Truthers who go around calling theories "hoaxes," or seem to spend most of their time trying to debunk other truther's theories should be suspect IMO.


Hi killtown, just chiming in here because it was Hoffman's stuff that i found early in my search for awarness (i woke up 6 months ago). I thought he was one of the good guys then. Now I have my ears and eyes open, more or less for the reasons you just stated.

For the record, as you say, I came to this forum, because of all the places I looked at, I trusted this place, Rob and his posse, so to speak. So far nothing has happened to alter that trust. I feel very safe here, with a bunch of really genuine and good people, where I feel I am not watching my back. If Hoffman is attacking this crowd, he'd better think twice about it.

My 2 cents

Posted by: Aldo Marquis CIT Aug 26 2009, 02:53 PM

Why were my posts deleted? Those were pretty important points that potentially protect PFT and CIT.

Posted by: rob balsamo Aug 26 2009, 03:31 PM

QUOTE (Aldo Marquis CIT @ Aug 26 2009, 02:53 PM) *
Why were my posts deleted? Those were pretty important points that potentially protect PFT and CIT.



http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?showtopic=17876

Note to mods/admins, please leave a link and message in the original thread when you split out posts. smile.gif

Posted by: Nagelfar Sep 3 2009, 06:42 PM

The CIT video was very good, very convincing.

After listening to the radio show where Wolsey interviews Hoffman. I can only conclude that Hoffman acts very suspicious. He sounds almost desperate. Don't know about Wolsey, probably just very gullible and not too bright.

Posted by: dMole Sep 9 2009, 02:22 PM

To review:

QUOTE (Arabesque @ Mon, 09/01/2008 - 2:47am)
Choose the wrong battles and you lose the war.

Divide and conquer strategy depends on retaliation. Throwing out the "bait" (i.e. name calling, straw-man arguments, accusations) is an occupation for provocateurs. The people who attack are only encouraged to attack more when you respond to them. This is basically their entire purpose.

Understanding how the 9/11 truth movement can be disrupted is important. It's not just theories, but also attacks and accusations. The whole purpose of these attacks is to waste energy and divert attention away from the goals of the 9/11 truth movement.

CODE
http://911blogger.com/node/17427


CODE
http://www.911oz.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5405


CODE
http://www.911oz.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5287


So does the blogging- errr- "actions" of several speak louder than/counter to the above words as of late? ohmy.gif

Posted by: dMole Sep 17 2009, 06:26 AM

Here is an updated timeline on the activities of "Club Hoff:"

http://www.pict.com/view/1630464/0/hoffmanitetimelinesep16



"Sad"ly- it looks like because of recent errr... "activity," I might need to delete the earlier (~5 years) portion of this timeline, and I will likely start again at the 01 Sep 2006 Pilots' release of the NTSB data (so you may want to refer back to this version/post for the early timeline). Will update as "necessary..." rolleyes.gif
----------
"Every picture tells a story don't it?"- Rod Stewart

Posted by: dMole Sep 22 2009, 12:52 AM

QUOTE (aerohead @ Aug 21 2009, 01:49 AM) *
This is too funny laughing1.gif

It seems to me to be a case of.................

"ive gotten myself in too deep and cant back out now
or ill suffer enormous public humiliation"

I seriously think it is above their heads. They obviously dont
understand aviation, physics of flight or put much weight on
eyewitness testimony. Even Pentagon Police officer testimony.

They dont understand that a 757, with its low hung engines, would have
been burying the engines up to the spinners in the lawn, causing the plane
to crash right there.............. if the awesome official video was real.

They also must not be familiar with the 1962 Operation Northwoods document
that called for using CIA operatives with alias' as passengers until the plane could
be swapped out for a drone and then destroyed over Cuba. Funny how the flights
on 9/11 were only 20% full, but normally ran over 80% .......... It would follow
logically that if they could do this in 1962........they could sure as hell do it in 2001.
So with plans like this in the past and the obvious cover up and confiscation of all video at the
Pentagon.......... i dont wanna hear anymore bullshit about disrespecting family
members of the deceased by questioning the impact of the plane.

But what is really sad here is that they don't realize that they are trying to discredit
one of the Truth movements greatest allies. We understand aviation, flight, G-forces,
black box info, autopilot operation and what disconnects it, radio altitude and an aircrafts
ability in general.

I watched all the videos that Rob sent me today with my co-worker, who has over 25yrs
experience wrenching on heavies (757,767,747,MD-11,A300 etc..) and he totally
agreed.......... the plane never hit the Pentagon.

Its ok Hoffman, Wolsey and the gang........ you CAN be big people and admit
you were wrong, we will forgive you and move on to unite the Truth movement
and bring Truth, Liberty and Justice to America.

I think you nailed the situation quite accurately here Aero. I have found that it is usually much easier to step in dog sh*t than it is to get that stench off of one's shoes. Now of course, "Club Hoff" has firmly dug in its heels with fervent gusto (dog sh*t and all), rather then getting a scrubbing brush (or a new pair of shoes) and working to remedy the situation. This seems to be a recurring theme with that small crowd- I think CIT is still waiting for "Arabesque's" "eyewitness" corrections now 2+ years later after pointing out the multiple errors. I am reminded of that old saying cautioning about pointing a finger at someone because it also points 3 more backward at yourself.

EDIT: Legge discussion was split to its own thread here:

Legge Paper, Ver 4+ and Counting, Split from Sliming
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=18055

Posted by: paranoia Sep 22 2009, 02:16 AM

on a related note... my 2 cents...


revealing timeline...




interesting juxtaposition:

source: http://unauthorized link.com/n6da29


in 2000, they were http://www.fedspending.org/fpds/tables.php?tabtype=t2&subtype=t&year=2000 (<---link) overall in taking money from uncle sam, so they have bee seriously slackin' in recent times. looks like gov. funding reached an all-time low last year and maybe some of the cal-berkley "scholars" (like the hoff/ash tagteam) realized they need to be more vigilant in defending the hand that feeds if they want to get back to the glory days when money was just pouring in...


for the record:
http://www.msri.org/about/sgp/jim/index.html
http://www.msri.org/people/staff/jim/
http://www.msri.org/sponaff/Support_Federal

QUOTE
National Science Foundation MSRI was founded by the National Science Foundation in a national competition held in 1979. The NSF continues to provide generous support, and remains the primary source of MSRI's operating funds.

The material on this website is based upon work supported by the National Science Foundation under Grant No. DMS98-10361. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations expressed in this material are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of the National Science Foundation.

The NSA has provided support for various workshops at MSRI, as well as support for participants in our programs, and computational facilities.


whistle.gif


eta:
DMS98-10361
http://unauthorized link.com/mravgl

eta2:
that is not to say that their funding was their only motivation. fortunately (or unfortunately?) for the dynamic duo, the shrinking budget at cal coincided with the release of cit's northside evidence, so one way or another they had to do something... they couldnt sit idle and lose the favor of both the government and the truth movement, now could they?

Posted by: panthercat Sep 22 2009, 03:10 AM

http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm

How can you debate official imagery that does not show a large twin engine jet transport on the lawn of the Pentagon? The names on the photos are Department of Defense, US Army, Space Imaging and US Marine Corps. If they were lying, wouldn’t they have somehow inserted a 757 into their images? Until someone ordered the lawn covered with sand, it was immaculate.

Regarding the videos showing the aircraft attacking the twin towers, since their origin is unknown, I will always hold them in question. Even if aircraft struck the towers, they could not have pulverized thousands of tons of concrete, nor melted steel columns, all the way to the ground with insufficient and non contiguous fuels. Even with sufficient and contiguous fuels, it would have taken a horrendous down slope wind for fire to reach the ground and something else to make the fire burn considerably hotter. We’re not just talking melting temperatures, some sections of the steel columns disintegrated. Ordinary fire won’t do that. There were a number of things ordinary fire won’t do that it was credited with doing that day.

What fuels were available in the twin towers after the kerosene from the jetliners was expended, as that dramatic flash was most likely the majority of it? There was furniture, paper, carpeting and humans. Unless someone had an office with real wood furniture, most of it was probably cubicles: fabric covered sheet rock with metal cabinets and laminated particle board. Even if the building were filled with wall to wall call centers, there shouldn’t have been sufficient fuel to support combustion and the fabric, carpeting should have melted and the humans would be ash in no time flat. There was paper, but probably not a significant source of fuel, and it burns nowhere near the melting point of steel, as would anything one would expect to find in an office building. Even the paint should have been water based, therefore not flammable.

There were no reported down slope winds that day, as if there were, fire would have been exiting the building to greet the fire fighters. It takes a lot of energy to make fire burn downward, however it will run up slope eleven to sixteen times faster than the average person can run. The fire would automatically burn upward, so there shouldn’t have been much fire damage four to five floors below the impact point.

I’m taking it for granted these buildings were at least built to minimum code requirements, so whatever it was that brought them all the way to the ground wasn’t ordinary, everyday, garden variety fire, as these were office buildings and not a blast furnace. Whatever it was released an incredible amount of energy and had to have been placed there intentionally for this purpose, which means someone had to know in advance what to expect. Pulverizing thousand of tons of concrete takes an enormous amount of energy and since fire is an agent of mechanical weathering, that wouldn’t be the source.

I’m not going to mention a foreign intelligence agency by name, but it was interesting that a group of them were caught laughing and dancing on the opposite side of the Hudson River as the towers collapsed. First of all, they are not legally supposed to operate in this country, although they do, and since they are such a small organization having them here at that time had to be more than coincidence. We’ll never know, because they don’t share information. If you read Victor Ostrovsky, you’ll know they wanted us to get Saddam out of the picture. Hmmmmmm!

Posted by: dMole Sep 22 2009, 01:08 PM

QUOTE (paranoia @ Sep 22 2009, 12:16 AM) *
for the record:
http://www.msri.org/about/sgp/jim/index.html
http://www.msri.org/people/staff/jim/
http://www.msri.org/sponaff/Support_Federal

Some more interesting MSRI sponsors, p:

S. D. Bechtel, Jr. Foundation

The William Randolph Hearst Foundations

[globalist?] The Alfred P. Sloan Foundation
http://brie.berkeley.edu/conf/participants.htm

http://www.msri.org/sponaff/Support_Foundation

Posted by: onesliceshort Sep 22 2009, 07:25 PM

I found the Hoffman interview hard to stomach.
During my (never ending) searches through links and searching for info on Pentagon witnesses and general info
on most aspects of mainly 404ed pages, Arabesque´s blog on the total bs 104 impact witnesses arose.
I´ve seen pure disinfo on his and Victronix´s blog. Now this.

Can someone please explain to me how any of the findings made by CIT and Pilots has adversely affected ANY aspect of ANY other (real) truthers theories/suspicions?
I mean, what exactly have these organisations done to impede any progress towards nailing the perps´ asses to a mast?
The two sites have offered concrete facts and evidence towards dismantling the official lie in regards to the OPERATION itself.
We can go down the road of pointing the finger at who was involved and why but as always that has proven to be a very deep rabbit hole.
These sites have offered evidence that can be PROVEN and which could very possibly lead to a constructive, fruitful path to finally bring all of this to a head or at least open the eyes of those people who are still living in blissful ignorance as to what actually happened on September 11th.

Hoffman et al seem to be happy living in the intrigue and mystery of it all. It is a haven for writing books and making a personal career. Maybe they like the never ending circle?

The lowest of the low was using the assertion that these sites are insulting the victims of the Pentagon attack. F*cking low man.

These people should be debated in public. But I doubt they would show seeing as they haven´t had the balls to write a single counterargument here and are instead more likely to be reading the thread anonymously.

Keep the good work up CIT and Pilots. Fuck you Hoffman if you are reading this.
(Sorry Painter I kept it as civil as I could)

The guy, like most other detractors of this evidence aren´t even arsed to study it.

Rant over.
Cheers lads.

Posted by: aerohead Sep 22 2009, 09:31 PM

QUOTE (panthercat @ Sep 22 2009, 02:10 AM) *
http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm

<snip>
What fuels were available in the twin towers after the kerosene from the jetliners was expended, as that dramatic flash was most likely the majority of it? There was furniture, paper, carpeting and humans. Unless someone had an office with real wood furniture, most of it was probably cubicles: fabric covered sheet rock with metal cabinets and laminated particle board. Even if the building were filled with wall to wall call centers, there shouldn’t have been sufficient fuel to support combustion and the fabric, carpeting should have melted and the humans would be ash in no time flat. There was paper, but probably not a significant source of fuel, and it burns nowhere near the melting point of steel, as would anything one would expect to find in an office building. Even the paint should have been water based, therefore not flammable.
<snip>



The "fuel" has been found



Clicky--------> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-T4MgWFPzk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIkna_hx8jk



-Aero

Posted by: Omega892R09 Sep 23 2009, 09:53 AM

QUOTE (dMole @ Sep 20 2009, 03:08 PM) *
Some more interesting MSRI sponsors, p:
The William Randolph Hearst Foundations

PS. Don't build any tree houses detailed in any of their organs. whistle.gif

Posted by: Ligon Sep 25 2009, 01:24 AM

QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Sep 22 2009, 07:25 PM) *
These people should be debated in public. But I doubt they would show seeing as they haven´t had the balls to write a single counterargument here and are instead more likely to be reading the thread anonymously.


Jim Hoffman has had an http://z3.invisionfree.com/CIT/index.php?showtopic=32 since he first called them a "hoax" in 2007:

I http://z3.invisionfree.com/CIT/index.php?showtopic=508&view=findpost&p=2184367 a year ago imploring him to either back that up or debate CIT publicly and he never responded.

Michael Wolsey has also been challenged but also prefers to attack from the shadows.
http://z3.invisionfree.com/CIT/index.php?showtopic=662

Posted by: onesliceshort Sep 25 2009, 10:41 AM

QUOTE
[15:30] WOLSEY: If they can get you asking the wrong questions they don't have to worry about the answers.' And this is, in my opinion, one of the things that happens with the disinformation.


Just how many THOUSANDS of pages of theories and accusations have been doing the rounds for the past 9 years?
I am sure we have ALL been down the tunnel. We have all seen the dots connected, the ´coincidences´, heard damning evidence from whistleblowers, etc.
Where has this gotten us?
It has left the doorway open for disinformation, detractors/shills being able to put a spin on every debate, muddying the waters and generally tearing apart organised constructive examination of how best to bring the perps out of the shadows.
People are tired and disillusioned with how we have been splintered into ineffective splinter-groups going in opposite directions.
The ONLY two sites that have offered an alternative, bullshit free, fact-based, evidence PROVEN direction has been this one and CIT.
Any argument with shills I have had recently, I simply quote the facts proven at these sites and they have no answer. None.
I have noticed on the YouTube channel showing ´National Security Alert´ a wide spectrum of users who have been totally blown away by the evidence because it is solid, backed up by purely factual scientific research by the guys at Pilots.
Shills don´t even bother their ass there any more because their prize asset of bullshitting, play on words and quoting ad infinitum (now totally disproven) official stories has been removed by the quality, no-nonsense approach by Pilots and CIT as regards avoiding speculation and instead shoving the facts in their faces.

QUOTE
[60:19] WOLSEY: Yeah, it’s just, it’s unbelievable. And I mean, I’m not going to sit here and defend the official story, but at the same time, we have to... we have to follow the evidence where it leads.



Yep, follow the breadcrumb trail laid down by the government. Ignore proven facts.
Let´s give up and go down the cul-de-sac they have been shepherding us into for years. Twit.
Way to go, Wolsey.

Well done Ligon on showing them up for the cowards that they are.
smile.gif

Posted by: izzysykopth Jan 14 2015, 04:42 PM

QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Aug 7 2009, 06:51 PM) *
yawn...

Yet another attack campaign. Its not the first, certainly wont be the last.

The only people attempting "divide" are those who coordinate such frivolous attacks.

They only end up discrediting themselves.

Meanwhile, we bring our concerns to court.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pentagon_lawsuit.html

Heres a good speech done by Dave vonKliest a few years ago.. it still holds true today...

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?showtopic=4427


It is my belief that those that attack Pilots for Truth are desperate to protect the media for their involvement. They simply could not (nor would they have a reason to) produce the horribly flawed videos as the attacks were taking place. This proves the media is not only involved in the cover up but also planning and implementation. Big difference between malice aforethought and accessory after the fact.

"When you see or hear an accusatory finger, it’s time to look at the finger instead of the direction it’s pointing.

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