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Aircraft Swap - Scene From 9/11: Intercepted

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SeniorTrend
post Sep 18 2011, 01:04 PM
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QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Jun 9 2011, 06:02 PM) *
Hi Bob,

The photo of radar coverage is analyzed in our first film "Flight Of American 77" as well as "9/11: Intercepted".

Here it is...



As to how to post a photo.... look at the toolbar above your reply window when replying. You will see several buttons. Hover your mouse over them. One is for "Insert an Image". The rest is pretty self explanatory. Basically you need to wrap the image link with tags......

CODE
[img]insert image link here[/img]


Hope this helps...



~ I'm going to attempt to overlay Google Earth over the radar hole geo area and look for possible locations where the original aircraft could have set down. i.e. Old SAC bases? Anything large enough to land the aircraft, even if it was short and required full beta and standing on the brakes - It needs to be able support the landing weight, and be wide enough to accommodate the span of the landing gear......... 911 is a mighty big elephant and requires lots of little bites........ I'm brand new to the forum, but been in and around aviation and flight test for many years - I'll peer down the radar hole (like Alice peering down the rabbit hole), and see what I can see...........
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23investigator
post Sep 19 2011, 08:07 AM
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QUOTE (Culper721 @ Jun 10 2011, 11:22 AM) *
Rob,

It had nothing to do with the converging of the planes and everything to do with each and every plane exploiting classified information regarding holes in the primary radar.

In theory a plane swap could have taken place within the holes in the primary radar. However, for purposes of legal and logical relevancy, it is far more important to show the clear and convincing evidence of the exploitation of classified information regarding the whereabouts of said holes in the primary radar. That knowledge exploited that day necessitates at the very least a treasonable design; i.e. someone 'on our side' assisting in an attack on our soil.


Dear Culper

If you don't mind, it seems an appropriate time, to come back to the above comment you made.

An earlier part of the progress of flight AA11 arriving over the radar blind spot, was an instruction given for the aircraft to turn 20 degrees right, and to climb to a new altitude.
Within this process there has been reference to a MD80 approaching flight AA11.

It does not seem clear, whether the 20 degree turn was because of the approaching MD80 or not.
A map found, showing the path of the MD80, does not help much with understanding, as it appears the MD80
was approaching from the northeast, which seems a strange reason to turn flight AA11 20 degrees to the right.
There has been separate comment suggesting the MD80 was coming from, 'yet', another direction.

This may have been previously covered.
But perhaps the pilot of the MD80 is a member of P4T, and could have recollection of sighting flight AA11.
It would be interesting to learn their recollection.

If this information is already known, could somebody please point towards it.

Robert
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woody
post Sep 21 2011, 03:45 PM
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I repeat myself: the radar holes in the diagram refer to an altitude of 5000 ft. At 30000 ft, there are no radar holes. Flight 11 and Flight 93 did not turn off their transponders in a radar hole. Please leave this trail alone.

QUOTE
The thing is, the map on Frank's website - I found it here -

http://media.photobucket.com/image/radar%2...tional51ATC.png

shows the situation at Above Ground Level 5000 ft. I.e. the circles reflect the radar-controlled area if you make a horizontal cut at 5000 ft. So these radar holes you are referring to exist only at this level. But the planes at 9/11 were flying at cruising altitude when they turned off their transponders. If you make a horizontal cut at 30000 ft, the circles have a radius six times bigger than at 5000 ft., i.e they are overlapping each other three, four times. Apart from certain rare spots in montainous areas, there are certainly no radar holes at 30000 ft.

I'm really sorry to say that. I myself was pretty exited when the thing came up at the team8+ website. But after realizing that the map referred to an altitude of 5000 ft, it was clear to me that radar holes don't cut it. I told Frank, Nico and John Doe II. They agreed.


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23investigator
post Sep 23 2011, 03:19 AM
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QUOTE (woody @ Sep 22 2011, 05:15 AM) *
I repeat myself: the radar holes in the diagram refer to an altitude of 5000 ft. At 30000 ft, there are no radar holes. Flight 11 and Flight 93 did not turn off their transponders in a radar hole. Please leave this trail alone.


Dear 'woody'.

'Assuming' your consideration that the location of "radar blackout" was only applicable upto a certain altitude.

It does not alter the consideration that flight AA11 was directed in the direction of the said
"radar blackout location" by an 'airtraffic controller'.
Is it then just coincidence that the 'pilot' or whoever was in control of flight AA11 then decided to make a left turn after this location?
--It appears no instruction was given, only attempt to make contact with the 'pilot'--.
There appears little doubt in published information that the transponder of flight AA11 was not available in the period of flight through part of the "radar blackout location" and subsequently.

Obviously, unless the published flight path of flight AA11 has been "made up", by somebody, there was primary radar return, "from an aircraft", that has been said to have been flight AA11.

Can you, with any sense of certainty, say that was the case?

Robert

This post has been edited by 23investigator: Sep 23 2011, 09:08 AM
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gerryc60
post Nov 18 2011, 11:54 PM
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Gentlemen,

I am new here as a member, but have been a researcher from time to time on this board.

This is a Great Board with many highly knowledgable and professional people.

There is another website that I also post in.

They are looking at 911 from many different angles.

http://letsrollforums.com/index.php

The answers to many of your questions can be found.

Please check it out!!!

Thank you again for this Site.

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almerie
post Apr 7 2012, 06:32 AM
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Hello,


Apparently I am a little behind events here, as this thread is almost 6 mths old now.

I have just seen '9/11 Intercepted', which I found very well made and interesting.

The possible plane swap was of particular interest, but I have some questions that I did not get answered from the video:

1. Did the two aircraft converging from west have any radar identification that shows type, departure and destination?

2. At what location did the swap take place as in Lat-Lon?

3. What was the separation between the two aircraft trailing each other.

4. Did the two aircraft trailing each other follow an airway, if so between which fixes?

5. Did the two aircraft converging follow an airway?


Thanks
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rob balsamo
post Apr 7 2012, 02:11 PM
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Hi almerie.... let me see if I can be of service...

QUOTE (almerie @ Apr 7 2012, 06:32 AM) *
Hello,


Apparently I am a little behind events here, as this thread is almost 6 mths old now.

I have just seen '9/11 Intercepted', which I found very well made and interesting.


Thank you for the compliment. I'm glad you found it informative.


QUOTE
1. Did the two aircraft converging from west have any radar identification that shows type, departure and destination?


None of the target tracks in the RADES data have that information.

QUOTE
2. At what location did the swap take place as in Lat-Lon?


Not really sure, but you can take a screenshot and overlay it on Google Earth if you need a precise lat/long.

QUOTE
3. What was the separation between the two aircraft trailing each other.


Standard separation is usually 5 miles in trail. They were much closer as you could see.

QUOTE
4. Did the two aircraft trailing each other follow an airway, if so between which fixes?


Yes and no... some were on Jet Airways while other were not. As to the fixes, you'll have to pull the charts and look it up. I don't have mine handy at the moment. You can probably find some online through a google search.

QUOTE
5. Did the two aircraft converging follow an airway?


Depends on which two you are referring. Many different targets were converging and then diverging, on airways and off. Again, you can probably get your answer when you look up the charts.

Wish I could be of more help... but hopefully the above will be somewhat helpful.
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onesliceshort
post Jul 20 2012, 10:27 AM
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Our old friend John Farmer is claiming that the RADES data (the animation in the film) has been "altered" rolleyes.gif

Sorry to bring this up but I'm having achinwag with the old fart at ATS...
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rob balsamo
post Jul 20 2012, 10:39 AM
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QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Jul 20 2012, 10:27 AM) *
Our old friend John Farmer is claiming that the RADES data (the animation in the film) has been "altered" rolleyes.gif

Sorry to bring this up but I'm having achinwag with the old fart at ATS...


lol... wow, what a mess. Look at them all coming out of the woodwork. No one addressing the actual topic, all of it character assassination. Why am I not surprised. They're all worried about our sales on a film they can watch for free on a website loaded with ads.... lol. Wasn't Farmer supposed to be coming out with a book himself like a year ago? ATS used to be a cool place for discussion. Now it's just a Romper Room. They need new moderation over there. But it is fun to register a new sock there from time to time and kick up the Hornet's nest. Many of those "duhbunkers" must sit there and refresh the ATS page all day long.. just waiting for something to argue.... sad... lol

No, nothing is "altered" in our film. It is a direct screen recording of the RS3 RADES program recorded with a screen recording program. The only thing which may be considered as "altered" are the colors from default, so people can see the tracks better in the film. None of the tracks/data are altered as claimed by Farmer, this is why he is unable to specifically show what has been "altered". I'm surprised he doesn't recognize the RS3 RADES program and considers it a "cartoon". Clearly he is unfamiliar with how to isolate/filter tracks and change default colors in the program.

Farmer is known for blatantly lying, but wow, this takes the cake as anyone can check it for themselves. Or it could be that Farmer aka "911files" aka "BCR" aka "spcengineer" is having "Senior Moments" at increased frequency. I know he complained a lot of having "Senior Moments".

Click here for more on Farmer, his lies, and continued flip-flopping.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=5083

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=15715

Farmer should spend the little time he has left on this planet with his grandkids and stop obsessing online over people he thinks are nuts. Especially when his credibility has been shot to hell many times over. The poor ol' timer.... i wish him the best...
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onesliceshort
post Jul 21 2012, 04:42 PM
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Probably old news to you guys but I've never heard this before. Allegedly recorded at 09:44am

http://www.rutgerslawreview.com/wp-content...20no%20clue.mp3

QUOTE
ID Tech: (Sigh). Ok Mo, the aircraft that you said was by the White House is now near the Pentagon. I don’t know where the hell they’re getting their info. I said Washington (Center) has no clue, when I called Washington (Center)about it. They didn’t know what the hell was goin’ on.


Who's Mo? Or the ID Tech?
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paranoia
post Jul 21 2012, 05:02 PM
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http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/sear...=www.google.com

QUOTE
The first human voices captured on tape that morning are those of the "ID techs"—Senior Airman Stacia Rountree, 23 at the time, Tech Sergeant Shelley Watson, 40, and their boss, Master Sergeant Maureen "Mo" Dooley, 40. They are stationed in the back right corner of the ops floor at a console with several phones and a radarscope. Their job in a crisis is to facilitate communications between NEADS, the civilian F.A.A., and other military commands, gathering whatever information they can and sending it up the chain. Dooley—her personality at once motherly and aggressive—generally stands behind the other two, who are seated.



eta - see also:
http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?e...aureen_dooley_1

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onesliceshort
post Jul 21 2012, 05:17 PM
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Legend!

It was hidden and out of synch with a load of other recordings so I thought it was worth a sniff.

The description doesn't fit the alleged E4B flightpath



If you guys want to move this go ahead?
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kawika
post Jul 22 2012, 11:27 AM
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This would fit the low flier reported over the WH heading east. This was captured by CNN, (maybe) , seen by someone south of the mall (McNerny) and may be the same flier captured at the Goss interview at the Capitol.

It does not show up on the radar scope files, but we have not had the expertise available to determine if it is shown in the data files.

I'm ready to assist as soon as someone steps forward to help figure this out.

This post has been edited by kawika: Jul 22 2012, 11:28 AM
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rob balsamo
post Jul 23 2012, 11:10 AM
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QUOTE (kawika @ Jul 22 2012, 11:27 AM) *
It does not show up on the radar scope files, but we have not had the expertise available to determine if it is shown in the data files.


It shows up in the RADES RS3 software and is covered in 9/11 Intercepted, along with the first E4B that departed ADW which circled around the alleged "AA77". I changed their target colors to white for the E4B's so people can see their tracks better from the RADES software recorded for our presentation.

Here is a screenshot from our film of the RADES RS3 software and the two E4B tracks.

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kawika
post Jul 24 2012, 10:22 PM
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QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Jul 21 2012, 01:10 PM) *
It shows up in the RADES RS3 software and is covered in 9/11 Intercepted, along with the first E4B that departed ADW which circled around the alleged "AA77". I changed their target colors to white for the E4B's so people can see their tracks better from the RADES software recorded for our presentation.

Here is a screenshot from our film of the RADES RS3 software and the two E4B tracks.

mod edit - removed image


These appear to be V22 and SWORD31. Do either of these satisfy a WH overflight? V77 certainly doesn't fit the WH scenario. As far as I can see none enter the P-56 area.

V77 fits the CNN video high flier heading North turning east.

The low flier on the CNN video is impossible to say with certainty where it was filmed. Just because it was seen after the high flier was captured does not mean it was the same plane. The low flier could be headed east or it could be headed north. It all depends upon where the camera is.

Still searching for more details.

This post has been edited by rob balsamo: Jul 25 2012, 03:09 AM
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rob balsamo
post Jul 25 2012, 03:08 AM
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QUOTE (kawika @ Jul 24 2012, 10:22 PM) *
These appear to be V22 and SWORD31. Do either of these satisfy a WH overflight? V77 certainly doesn't fit the WH scenario. As far as I can see none enter the P-56 area.

V77 fits the CNN video high flier heading North turning east.

The low flier on the CNN video is impossible to say with certainty where it was filmed. Just because it was seen after the high flier was captured does not mean it was the same plane. The low flier could be headed east or it could be headed north. It all depends upon where the camera is.

Still searching for more details.


Hi Kawika,

it's been awhile since i researched it, but if i recall...

Word 31 is the E4B which circled "AA77" and then headed off to the midwest.

Venus 77 is the E4B which circled the White House passing north of P-56 and caught on CNN, and then headed south.

Venus 22 is a Gulfstream III which eventually returned to Andrews.

Again, this is all according to govt provided official reports and should be taken as such. All of the above are represented in the RADES RS3 files...

Hope this helps...
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rob balsamo
post Jul 25 2012, 11:37 AM
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QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Jul 20 2012, 10:39 AM) *
No, nothing is "altered" in our film. It is a direct screen recording of the RS3 RADES program recorded with a screen recording program. The only thing which may be considered as "altered" are the colors from default, so people can see the tracks better in the film. None of the tracks/data are altered as claimed by Farmer, this is why he is unable to specifically show what has been "altered". I'm surprised he doesn't recognize the RS3 RADES program and considers it a "cartoon". Clearly he is unfamiliar with how to isolate/filter tracks and change default colors in the program.

Farmer is known for blatantly lying, but wow, this takes the cake as anyone can check it for themselves. Or it could be that Farmer aka "911files" aka "BCR" aka "spcengineer" is having "Senior Moments" at increased frequency. I know he complained a lot of having "Senior Moments".

Click here for more on Farmer, his lies, and continued flip-flopping.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=5083

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=15715

Farmer should spend the little time he has left on this planet with his grandkids and stop obsessing online over people he thinks are nuts. Especially when his credibility has been shot to hell many times over. The poor ol' timer.... i wish him the best...


Just a followup to the above.

Farmer fabricated some images from what he claims is the RADES data in a poor attempt to baffle with BS in supporting his claims that we "tampered" with the RADES software.

I put this short clip together using his fabricated chart overlay-ed on top of the RADES RS3 radar tracks I recorded for "9/11: Intercepted"



It's a perfect match. Nothing was "tampered with", "manipulated" or "altered" as claimed by Farmer.

Farmer also provided altitude information. And when he gets the nads to come here and confront me, I'll educate him on that as well. But for now, not many people are interested in his BS (i don't blame them, Farmer has pretty much lost all credibility)... just posting this here for archival purposes.

John, I highly suggest you review the full film several times before you make yourself look more a fool.
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kawika
post Jul 25 2012, 11:58 AM
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QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Jul 23 2012, 05:08 AM) *
Hi Kawika,

it's been awhile since i researched it, but if i recall...

Word 31 is the E4B which circled "AA77" and then headed off to the midwest.

Venus 77 is the E4B which circled the White House passing north of P-56 and caught on CNN, and then headed south.

Venus 22 is a Gulfstream III which eventually returned to Andrews.

Again, this is all according to govt provided official reports and should be taken as such. All of the above are represented in the RADES RS3 files...

Hope this helps...


SWORD31 left Andrews, passed well south of P-56. I cannot imagine anyone mistaking this for being over the WH or circling the WH.

V77 left Andrews (see track in Post #92) went north of the P-56. When CNN caught it over Jackson Place it was ~7-8,000 feet according to the scope views and the dataset. It continued to gain altitude through its turn heading east, then south of P-56.

This track cannot be the low flier caught by CNN.

If not V77 or SWORD31 then what is it?

Given the fact that CNN did not release their footage to Pinnacle until 2006(?) and no interview with the cameraman was ever done, we cannot be certain that the low flier was captured from Lafayette Park, nor can we be certain of the timing suggested by the tape. My experience with video in the WTC area suggests heavy manipulation of both content and chronology. Rarely do we see true "raw" footage with end to end connections.

The brief scene of the white jet captured by an ABC cameraman upon his hasty exit from the WH grounds comports with the V77 before it turns north over P-56. It is headed west at this time ~9:42.



You can see this footage here at mark 6:00: (It is not live)
http://archive.org/details/abc200109111036-1118?start=179.5

Do we have anyone in DC who can take a field trip to scope out locations? Please PM me for details.
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rob balsamo
post Jul 25 2012, 12:18 PM
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QUOTE (kawika @ Jul 25 2012, 11:58 AM) *
SWORD31 left Andrews, passed well south of P-56. I cannot imagine anyone mistaking this for being over the WH or circling the WH.


I havent seen anyone make that claim.

QUOTE
V77 left Andrews (see track in Post #92) went north of the P-56. When CNN caught it over Jackson Place it was ~7-8,000 feet according to the scope views and the dataset. It continued to gain altitude through its turn heading east, then south of P-56.


Yeah, that's pretty high as compared to the video. The video resembles something closer to maybe 1500-2000 feet. When I get a chance, I'll check the altitudes in the RADES data as well. If it matches what you're saying, the "low flier" E4B filmed by CNN was not Venus 77 as claimed by govt reports and loyalists.

This reminds me of the many witnesses for "United 93" where they stated it passed over at 500-2000 feet, but yet the FDR data shows it at 8,000-10,000 at those locations. This is covered in our film "Flight Of United 93". Laymen would not mistake 500-2000 feet for 8-10k. That's just absurd.

I'll keep you posted after I look at the RADES altitudes. If you don't hear from me for awhile about it, just shoot me a reminder.

Good find kawika.
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paranoia
post Jul 25 2012, 04:01 PM
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hey K, i wasnt aware (though i now understand) that there was more than one e4b, or at least - more than one e4b captured on tape - so im a little lost in this discussion, but i am aware of this:


9:48am (also seen in the natgeo dc witness doc)
http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?...capitolevacuate

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/10/magazine/10KERRY.html?_r=1

QUOTE
As New York and Washington were under attack on Sept. 11, 2001, a film crew happened to come upon John Kerry leaving the Capitol. The brief moment of footage, included in a BBC documentary called ''Clear the Skies,'' tells us something, perhaps, about Kerry in a crisis. The camera captures Congressional aides and visitors, clearly distraught and holding onto one another, streaming down the back steps of the Capitol building in near panic, following the bellowed instructions of anxious police. Off to one side of the screen, there is Kerry, alone, his long legs carrying him calmly down the steps, his neck craning toward the sky, as if he were watching a gathering rainstorm. His face and demeanor appear unworried. Kerry could be a man lost in his thoughts who just happens to have wandered onto the set of a disaster film.

''I remember looking up at the sky as I walked down the steps,'' Kerry told me recently, when I asked him about the film clip. He said that he and other members of the Senate's Democratic leadership had just watched on television as the second plane hit the World Trade Center, and shortly after that they heard the sonic boom of an explosion and saw, through a large window, the black smoke rise from the Pentagon. ''We'd had some warning that there was some airplane in the sky. And I remember seeing a great big plane -- I think it was a 747 or something -- up there, but it wasn't moving in a way that, you know, I was particularly concerned. I remember feeling a rage, a huge anger, and I remember turning to somebody and saying, 'This is war.' I said, 'This is an act of war.'''


very likely what he saw when he looked up:




-is that what you are referencing as "the low flyer", or is this the "high flyer"?

btw - you also mentioned the goss clip, and though i know some still disagree and are trying to move goss physically over to the pentagon and place the timing of that clip as simultaneous to the arrival of the "attack" jet, im fairly certain (99.9%) that the boom heard in that clip happened at 10:08am (give or take 2 minutes).

anyhow, i hope that clears up the timing of at least one of the planes.

salute.gif
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