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Science and Religion

Daniels
post Nov 12 2006, 04:38 AM
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This post edited.

This post has been edited by Daniels: May 24 2008, 03:05 AM
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MichaelMR
post Nov 12 2006, 07:42 PM
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That's a good point, Daniels. However, I think it's kind of justified in a way. After all, in the reality we know and live in, god has never been proven to exist. Scientists use a series of methods to determine whether or not a theory or hypothesis is correct. It's deductive and uses conclusive evidence to prove whether or not whatever they are researching is indeed factual and correct.

If we were to look at a scientist’s perspective, the only evidence of god would be on pieces of paper and peoples beliefs. So I would assume its normal for them to denounce that existence based on their perspective on how to analyze and deduce theories and hypotheses. Regardless of the fact millions believe in the existence of a super natural being that governs all without proof, they would like to see if it can be proven. So far, unfortunately, it hasn’t. So the way they think and deal with the issue of god, if you look at it from their point of view, is somewhat justified.

And the issue about the people with near-death experiences is also a bit controversial as people experience hallucinations during those periods from various reasons. Loss of blood or the lack of it going to the brain, depraved from oxygen which puts the person in a different element and so on. It's hard to conclude anything from that. But then again, I've never been in that situation so I don't know much about what happens. However, because of these conditions that can counter what those people experienced, it stands in controversy. And I can sit here and make up a ton of excuses which could be correct or not as to why what they went through may have happened, but again I wouldn’t know.

This post has been edited by MichaelMR: Nov 12 2006, 07:49 PM
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MichaelMR
post Nov 13 2006, 06:52 AM
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I'm going to spend some time reading into this.

QUOTE
There are many logical proofs of the existence of God, as there are of the validity of the Prophets of God. The Baha'i Writings are a rich source of these proofs. http://reference.bahai.org/en/


Daniels, if you don't mind, can you link me to those pages? The reference is pretty general. It's a bit difficult to find. Is your other topic in this forum what you meant?

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum...showtopic=1509

And I think that you are a bit more optimistic that most of the scientists who aren't followers of the Baha'i faith. I agree with you, there are things in this world not you, I or anyone can explain. But at the same time, it doesn't necessary reiterates the belief of god and religion. People will assume certain things based on their beliefs if it can't be explained another.

However, I think what I was trying to say, in a realistic sense, scientist denounce the use of faith as an explanation because it cannot be proven. Do you see where I'm coming from? I also acknowledge your points on near-death experiences and astral projection. Those are definitely things we can't comprehend. Also, unfortunately I can't recall the title at the moment, but I read a book where a woman had claimed that Jesus had descended from the heavens to take her to experience what hell was like. He was supposedly using her to tell of what hell really is. What she claimed, was that in an astral projectile from, he took her into hell so she could account for herself what it was to come back and write about it. Now that is definitely amazing to read, however it's still something we can't prove. It's just word to mouth and faith in what woman claims may have happened. A scientist wouldn't spend much time on a case like this because it's something that cannot be proven, scientifically. I think this is why they are so harsh on religion and the belief in god.

There is a great deal of information about OBEs on wikipedia. Apparently you don't have to be in a near-death state to experience an OBE, people supposedly have achieved this through mediation, dreams and so on. This is supposedly associated with astral projection, which has been around since ancient China. What I’m reading is, people can deliberately induce these experiences onto themselves, willingly.

These are excerpts from wikipedia.

QUOTE
Approximately one in ten people claim to have had an out-of-body experience at some time in their lives. For some, the phenomenon occurs spontaneously, while for others it is linked to dangerous circumstances, a dream-like state, a near-death experience, or use of psychedelic drugs. A few have been able to induce the experience deliberately through visualizations while in a relaxed, meditative state, or through a lucid dream. Relatively little is known with certainty about OBEs. Recent studies have shown that OBEs can be induced by stimulating the angular gyrus at the temporal-parietal lobe junction.

Near-death experiences.

QUOTE
Another form of a spontaneous OBE occurs during a near death experience (or NDE). The phenomenology of an NDE usually includes physiological, psychological and transcendental factors (Parnia, Waller, Yeates & Fenwick, 2001) such as subjective impressions of being outside the physical body (an out-of-body experience), visions of deceased relatives and religious figures, transcendence of ego and spatiotemporal boundaries and other transcendental experiences (Lukoff, Lu & Turner, 1998; Greyson, 2003). Typically the experience follows a distinct progression, starting with the sensation of floating above one's body and seeing the surrounding area, followed by the sensation of passing through a tunnel, meeting deceased relatives, and concluding with encountering a being of light (Morse, Conner & Tyler, 1985).


Studies by various experts.

QUOTE
English psychologist Susan Blackmore, suggests that an OBE begins when a person loses contact with sensory input from the body while remaining conscious. The person retains the illusion of having a body, but that perception is no longer derived from the senses. The perceived world resembles the world he or she generally inhabits while awake, but this perception does not come from the senses either. The vivid body and world is made by our brain's ability to create fully convincing realms, even in the absence of sensory information. This process is witnessed by each of us every night in our dreams. Technically all dreams could be called OBEs in that in them we experience events and places quite apart from the location and activity of our normally perceived body and world.


QUOTE
Olaf Blanke studies

There is now an ongoing research project into the neuroscience of OBEs being undertaken by Olaf Blanke in Switzerland. This line of research acknowledges the experiences as reported by the subjects as valid. That is, people really do feel as if they have left their body. However, researchers have found that it is possible to reliably elicit such experiences by stimulating regions of the brain called the right temporal-parietal junction (TPJ; a region where the temporal lobe and parietal lobe of the brain come together). This evidence calls into question the idea a second or astral body is an objective reality within these experiences. Blanke however does not dismiss the idea that these experiences may have objective factors, in a 2002 BBC Radio interview he stated that one of his patients had accurately perceived information outside of her sensory range after stimulation of her right-angular gyrus. He went on to say that more research was needed.

Olaf Blanke and his collaborators in Switzerland have explored the neural basis of OBEs by showing that they are reliably associated with lesions in the right TPJ region and that they can be reliably elicited with electrical stimulation of this region in a patient with epilepsy. These elicited experiences include percepts of transformations of the patient's arm and legs (complex somatosensory responses) and whole-body displacements (vestibular responses), all of which are commonly reported in OBEs.

In neurologically normal subjects, Blanke and colleagues then showed that the conscious experience of the self and body being in the same location depends on multisensory integration in the TPJ. Using event-related potentials, Blanke and colleagues showed the selective activation of the TPJ 330-400 ms after stimulus onset when healthy volunteers imagined themselves in the position and visual perspective that generally are reported by people experiencing spontaneous OBEs. Transcranial magnetic stimulation in the same subjects impaired mental transformation of the participant’s own body. No such effects were found with stimulation of another site or for imagined spatial transformations of external objects, suggesting the selective implication of the TPJ in mental imagery of one's own body. In a follow up study, Arzy et al. showed that the location and timing of brain activation depended on whether mental imagery is performed with mentally embodied or disembodied self location. When subjects performed mental imagery with an embodied location, there was increased activation of a region called the "extrastriate body area" (EBA), but when subjects performed mental imagery with a disembodied location, as reported in OBEs, there was increased activation in the region of the TPJ. This leads Arzy et al. to argue that "these data show that distributed brain activity at the EBA and TPJ as well as their timing are crucial for the coding of the self as embodied and as spatially situated within the human body."

Blanke and colleagues thus propose that the right temporal-parietal junction is important for the sense of spatial location of the self, and that when these normal processes go awry, an OBE arises.


QUOTE
Michael Persinger studies

Michael Persinger has undertaken similar research to Olaf Blanke using magnetic stimulation applied to the right temporal lobe of the brain, which is known to be involved in visuo-spatial functions, multi-sensory integration and the construction of the sense of the body in space. Persinger's research also found evidence for objective neural difference between periods of remote viewing in two individuals thought to have psychic abilities. Persinger undertook his research on Sean Harribance and Ingo Swann, a renowned remote viewer who has taken part in numerous studies. Examination of Harribance showed enhanced EEG activity within the alpha band (8 - 12 Hz) over Harribance's right parieto-occipital region, consistent with neuropsychological evidence of early brain trauma in these regions. In a second study, Ingo Swann was asked to draw images of pictures hidden in envelopes in another room. Individuals with no knowledge of the nature of the study rated Swann's comments and drawings as congruent with the remotely viewed stimulus at better than chance levels, suggestive of some psi ability. Additionally, on trials in which Swann was correct, the duration of 7 Hz (alpha band) paroxysmal discharges over the right occipital lobe was longer. Subsequent anatomical MRI examination showed anomalous subcortical white matter signals focused in the perieto-occipital interface of the right hemisphere that were not expected for his age or history.
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Method
post Nov 13 2006, 11:08 AM
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Here's my take.

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein

I'll take ole' Albert's advice on this subject. thumbsup.gif
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shoon
post Nov 13 2006, 10:23 PM
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What is your definition of "God"?

“Religion makes people blind, science let people know we are still stupid and stupid people do not understand sceince.” ---Shoon
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UnderTow
post Nov 14 2006, 12:59 PM
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It's the old Known Knowns and Known Unknowns thing smile.gif

imo, Morality does not need Religion. Religion IS superstition and myth.
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Method
post Nov 14 2006, 02:13 PM
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QUOTE (UnderTow @ Nov 14 2006, 11:59 AM)
imo, Morality does not need Religion.

I agree with that statement.
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post Nov 14 2006, 06:38 PM
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Take away religion, and the result will be Deir Yassin each and every day.


A moral code of conduct is imprinted on each and every soul.

Catholicism , the only true religion, helps people understand their responsibilites,
and duties.
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shoon
post Nov 14 2006, 10:47 PM
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God is just like Phlogiston.
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shoon
post Nov 15 2006, 06:55 AM
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Religion is for someone who is not capable of understanding moral, habit, culture or the way to live, by himself/herself. So I understand you guys keep telling the stupid logic over and over again. For instance, I know there were a lot of survivors and 8 survivors may be merely few percent of those people. I have great uncle died shortly after visiting Hiroshima as a doctor. He was an American and a Christian.

It is pointless discussion because most of religious people do not have a correct logic. But what I do not like is stop seeking the truth and leave the reason up to a god.

I really got to thank American destroyed Japanese religious mind.
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tocarm
post Dec 18 2006, 08:23 PM
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re: Religion and Logic/Critical Thinking

"The Necessity of Divine Revelatoin" by yours truly

If one is ready to be 'brutally honest' as well as 'brutally truthful', then it's very easy to give Religion serious consideration.

First 'brutally honest' and 'brutally truthful' statement of utter fact as that neither I nor any other human being currently alive on planet earth was/is personally responsible for the existance of this 'All' in which we all move, live and have our being.

That 'brutally honest & brutally truthful' self-evident truth (now mind you, we area considering Logic and Critical Thinking here) relentlessly serves to declare that neither I nor any other human being currently alive on planet earth is "The Creator" of all that is seen and unseen.

Since we did not bring ourselves into existance nor did any of us confer upon ourselves our 'beinghood', our 'persona', the 'brutally honest & brutally truthful' self-evident truth our Logic and Critical Thinking must submit to is the reality, the truth, the fact that none of us are 'The Creator', or in other words, none of us are 'God'. And since God is the Creator of all that is seen and unseen (to include us, now mind you), the whole lot of us are but the Creators "creatures"; we are His "creations".

Next step in demostrating "The Logic", the "Critical Thinking" necessary for any individual to submit to if he/she/they wish to immerse themselves in "Religion" (where the word 'religion' derives from the Latin word 'religio' which means "bond between man and God" - and since God is 'Pure Infinite Spirit' - the purpose, aim, goal and purpose of 'religion' is to establish an intimate spiritual bond with God), we need to understand the absolute necessity of God granting/giving His Own Divine Revelation to mankind.

While I am not "The Creator", as His 'creature' created in His Image and Likeness, I can still use this things "The Creator" has created to mimick my Creator by being a "creator" as well - using those things "The Creator" has placed in His Own creation.

I "create" a cube measuring 12" in height, lenght and width. Into this box of my own 'creation', I place an object. I secure this cube in such as way that it cannot be opened, peered into, or penetrated in any way by any other human being on planet earth so as to prevent the viewing/discovering the identity of this object I've placed in this "created cube" of my creation.

I proceed to pass this 'Creatures Created Cube' to every last human being alive on planet earth. They are allowed to hold the box, shake the box, weigh the box, look at the box, smell and taste the box - but they are prohibited from opening up the box.

Each person who gets to "experience the reality" of this box in his/her/their own hands, with their own eyes, with their own ears, with their own nose and tongues is asked to provide me, the "creature created cube" creator, their OPINION as to what is inside of my box, my cube. And I record each and every last OPINION as to what by box, my cube, contains.

My box/cube traverses the surface of planet earth, finding its way into the hands of every human being currently alive on planet earth - I receive and record their 6 billion or so OPINIONS as to what the identity of the object in the box.

NOW THEN FOR 'LOGIC' & 'CRITICAL THINKING'!

Logically, while it IS POSSIBLE for there to be 6 billion human opinions as to the nature and identity of the object I've placed in my box, my cube, it CANNOT BE POSSIBLE for each and every last of those 6 billion opinions to be simultaneously CORRECT. In other words, lots and lots of people will be WRONG and INCORRECT regardless of how passionately/assertively they announce to others that they have the answer to the nature and identity of the object >>I've<< placed in this box, this cube, of my creating.

Conversely, while it IS IMPOSSIBLE for each and every last of the 6 billion human vying and differing opinions to be simultaneously CORRECT - it is very, very POSSIBLE that each and every last one of the 6 billion human opinions are all simultaneously WRONG, IN ERROR and INCORRECT!

Again, employing 'brutally honest' and 'brutally truthful' LOGIC and CRITICAL THINKING regarding this itsy-bitsy issue of the nature and identity of the object I've placed in this box, this cube, of my creating, there is but ONE ANSWER to satisfy the the following question:

"Who on planet earth has the absolute truth as to what the nature and identity of the object of this box, this cube, they themselves have seen, felt, handled, touched, experienced with their own human senses and human natures?"

The ONLY ANSWER POSSIBLE to answer the above question is >TOCARM<!

The brutally honest, brutally truthful, perfectly pure LOGICAL and impeccable, uncontestable assertion, statement, answer, reality, fact, necessary conclusion and/or realization of rigorous human CRITICAL THINKING is this:

THE CREATOR of any and all creations is the Final and Ultimate Authority regarding any and all objects, natures and identities of any and all created things. And THE CREATOR is the Final and Ultimate Authority with regards to the Nature and Identity of the Divine Nature, Divine Character and Divine Persona of THE CREATOR.

Find 'The Religion' which states, proclaims, announces, asserts, doctrinally defines that GOD HIMSELF TOOK ON OUR HUMAN NATURE AND BECOME A MAN so as to tell us all about Himself and every other matter of 'being' and 'nature/identity' of His created things - and you've found the One, True Religion.

*****

About 2,000 years ago, a Virgin conceived her Child by the Creative Power of the Spirit of God. The Child conceived in her womb has God Himself as His Father. This Child shares our human nature and shares the Eternal Beinghood with Divinity.

Emmanual = "God With Us"

"Merry Christmas" - to us a Child is born, to us a Saviour is given

- tocarm
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waterdancer
post Dec 18 2006, 11:10 PM
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IMO any scientist who tries to say anything more than something along the lines of- "I've scientifically looked at no evidence that I'm willing to accept as valid that indicates to me that there might be a higher level of reality than what I can observe with my five senses enhanced by scientific instruments" is being intellectually dishonest. The absense of proof of something doesn't mean that something is not true. Mathematically proven by Kurt Godel. Am I religious? NO. Do I feel that there is a level of consciousness or awareness in the Universe that religious people would refer to as God? Yep. I can't prove it, but I can feel it. What was that Arthur C. Clarke quote? Oh, yeah...
QUOTE
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Indistinguishable. The whole Universe we think we life in could be a gigantic virtual reality program running on a computer, and we'd never be able to tell the difference, if it were advanced enough. Unless we could... dunno.gif

I've got a whole book list I can personally recommend on this type of thing for those interested. I've read a lot of good material in various library subject headings. Go to your local library (online if you prefer) and type in the subject keywords philosophy and physics and chances are you'll see some of the ones I've read over the years. But additionally, here are a couple of specific title recommendations.

The Holographic Universe by Michal Talbot

several of Ken Wilber's books, including in particular The Marriage of Sense and Soul: Integrating Science and Religion

This post has been edited by waterdancer: Dec 18 2006, 11:20 PM
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tocarm
post Dec 19 2006, 12:00 AM
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re: Science & Religion

Those who fancy themselves "scientists" and "scientifically minded" in our current neo-pagan, secularized world cannot humble themselves enough to admit to themselves and to others that they are NOT theologians!

But there have been many Christian theologians - or at least many with some decent measure of studies in, knowledge of and grasp of Christian theology - who were scientists.

The current crop of "scientists" in our contemporary world wouldn't be able to conduct their "science" nor their "scientific investigations/work" without the foundational work laid down for them by those scientists who were both religious and cognizant of Christian theology. FYI:

http://mafg.home.isp-direct.com/mcf/mcfc014a.htm

One can but only realize that the current crop of our world's neo-pagan, secularized "scientists" are rabidly BIASED, PREJUDICED and REFUSE TO ADMIT some simple, documentated religious/scientific findings by members of their own scientific community.

Rigorous, unquestionable scientific precise analyses and scientific conclusions on and about the Supernatural/Divine Nature of the Christian Church's (religious) Sacrament of the Eucharist:

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

Here is God Himself "proving" to each and every last "scientist" in our contemporary neo-pagan, secularized world that HE truly exists and that HE can exert His Perfect Divine Omnipotence on/over/with His Own Creation any old time and in any old way He so chooses!

- tocarm
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milehighwoody
post Feb 21 2007, 12:14 PM
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One of Einstein’s most quoted remarks is: “Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” This quote is widely taken out of context. He proceeds to characterize “religion” as the faith in the possibility that the regulations valid for the world of existence are rational, that is, comprehensible to reason. He said "I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith". Einstein goes on to make it very clear that he is using the word “religion” in a special sense that leaves no room at all for a personal God.
Einstein was obviously quite annoyed at the way religious apologists continually misused his name in their support. He wrote in a letter: "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it".

This post has been edited by milehighwoody: Feb 21 2007, 12:15 PM
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tocarm
post Feb 22 2007, 12:35 PM
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re: "Religion", "Science" and "Scientists":

"The supposed text of the 3rd Secret of Fatima printed in a German newspaper in the 1980's without official sanction:

'No longer does order reign anywhere. Even in the highest places Satan reigns and directs the course of events (ref. 1). Satan will succeed in infiltrating into the highest places in the Church (ref. 2). Satan will succeed in sowing confusion IN THE MINDS OF SCIENTISTS who will design weapons that can destroy great portions of mankind in a few minutes (ref. 3). Satan will gain hold of heads of nations and will cause these destructive weapons to be mass produced." - quoting from about 1/2 the way down this webpage:

http://www.olfatima.com/page24.html

Refernce 1:
http://www.rense.com/general29/free.htm
http://www.rense.com/general43/seces.htm

Reference 2:
http://www.tldm.org/news/martin.htm

Reference 3:
http://www.prahlad.org/pub/bearden/scalar_wars.htm

- tocarm
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tocarm
post Feb 22 2007, 12:41 PM
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A very SCIENTIFIC ANALYSIS of a pivotal/central Religious Truth of the Catholic Church and her Apostolic Faith:

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

Who is being "superstituous" out there in Internet videoland/cyberspace with regarding to their RELIGION???

Not I.

- tocarm
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bill
post Feb 22 2007, 09:59 PM
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"God does not play dice with the universe"


Albert Einstein
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tocarm
post Feb 23 2007, 12:14 PM
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"God does not play dice with the universe."

God might not 'play dice' with the universe...but that doesn't mean MAN don't like to "gamble with it" and "gamble with their own existance"!

"We have penetrated the secrets of the atom, yet failed to grasp the Teachings of the Sermon on the Mount." - US Army General Omar Bradley to the 1947 West Point graduating class of newly commissioned 2nd Lts.

"When the great time will come, in which MANKIND will face its last, hard trial...MANKIND will penetrate into the bowels of the earth and will reach into the clouds, GAMBLING WITH ITS OWN EXISTANCE." - Prophecy of Catholic Monk Johannes Friede (1204-1257) - on-line reference at:
http://www.crystalinks.com/papalprophecies.html

"MAN, you shall crawl upon the earth like serpents..." Jesus Christ to Nancy Fowler
Febuary 13 & February 6, 1994 Messages from on-line reference at:
http://www.ourlovingmother.org/Messages_Mo...vingMother.aspx

Jesus Christ's Divine Message to the President of the United States of America & implicitly to the entire United States Government at its Federal & State levels of March 19, 1991 at on-line reference at:
http://www.ourlovingmother.org/Messages_Te...ments.aspx#five

If I find my temporarily misplaced book entitled "To The Priests - Our Lady's Beloved Sons" - mystical locutions of the Mother of Christ to one Fr. Stephano Gobbi, I'll post the Blessed Virgin Mary's own Messages to and for the United States of America given at Malvern, Pennsylvania in/around 1990/1991 as well.

To condense ALL OF THIS into the simplest and smallest of 'nutshells' - we, here in the United States of America AS WELL AS in all the nations of the 'Rest Of The World' are in big....really big...INCREDIBLY >>REALLY BIG BIG BIG<< TROUBLE with Almighty God!

(starts to give me a grinding HEADACHE just to think about it all)

- tocarm
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Nunyabiz
post Mar 7 2008, 11:15 AM
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I can not "prove" that Purple Flying Unicorns don't exist on the dark side of the moon.

So does that mean they exist or that I should ignorantly just "believe" they do?

Exact same thing goes for any "god" of your choosing, there is no "proof" of any god whatsoever, never has been never will be.
Whatever god one decides to "believe" in is done so without a shred of evidence and this god exist ONLY in the MIND of the "believer".
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UnderTow
post Mar 7 2008, 11:31 AM
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Tocarm, you should go to Nunyabiz's other home forum
http://www.ethicalatheist.com/forum/index.php

I'm sure the discussion will be much more interesting over there.
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