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The "religious" Problem Is This, (In a THREE SENTENCE nutshell)

tocarm
post Apr 17 2007, 05:08 PM
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"The Word was the true light
that enlightens all men;
and He was coming into the world.
He was in the world
that had its being through Him,
and the world did not know Him.
He came into His Own Domain
AND HIS PEOPLE DID NOT (& DO NOT) ACCEPT HIM."
- The Gospel according to St. John - John 1:9-11

Everyone "talks" religion....everyone "talks" Jesus....everyone "talks" Christianity...
and THE CHRIST has these Simple Words to say to 6 billion human beings going around "talking" religion..."talking" Jesus..."talking" Christianity:

"Why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord' AND NOT DO WHAT I SAY?" - Luke 6:46

GOD isn't "the problem" - "the problem" rests squarely on HUMAN BEINGS - all 6 billion of them. Face it. Everyone wants to do things/have things his or her way rather than God's Way. And that's why all the problems we and our 'world' are never going to get fixed or solved because ALL of our world's problems are the DIRECT RESULT of people simply wanting to do and to have "things" THEIR way!

Don't "blame God" for people's and people's governments arrogance, hubris and vice-ridden DISOBEDIENCE.

- tocarm

This post has been edited by tocarm: Apr 17 2007, 05:16 PM
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grizz
post Apr 17 2007, 07:56 PM
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QUOTE (tocarm @ Apr 17 2007, 09:08 PM)
Don't "blame God" for people's and people's governments arrogance, hubris and vice-ridden DISOBEDIENCE.

Don't worry. I never blame God for anything, because God is a fantasy.

Welcome back, tocarm.
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tocarm
post Apr 17 2007, 09:00 PM
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Oceans Flow,

You still have His Divine Mercy to change your mind. You haven't died yet.

Now I've been to the Grand Canyon the AZ side. Believe me, it's there and it's real.

And thanks to the Divine Grace of God Himself, I've been in His Presence, heard His Voice and had His Holy Spirit "show me a thing or two" with respect to the reality of the Supernatural and Divine Realm.

Believe me, there is a God and He Is Real. And 'FYI'...He isn't a 'Happy Camper' with respect to what is currently going on in the world and amongst the peoples of the nations of our 'world'.

In other words....the Human Race is in big, Very Big Trouble, with His Divine Majesty. No sense giving allegiance to 'The Rebellion'.

- tocarm

This post has been edited by tocarm: Apr 17 2007, 09:02 PM
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grizz
post Apr 17 2007, 09:31 PM
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Well, in a sense God is in the Grand Canyon. I've hiked to the bottom six times and it is always a most profound adventure, filled with realizations about the world and how it works. Life and death, time and timelessness, macro to micro. It's amazing that the canyon and mankind are both on the planet at the same time. I've often thought that the planet did that on purpose.

Think about it. No other creature can look at the Grand Canyon and realize it's majesty. A deer doesn't know anything about scenery. Only a human would revere the experience, would be able to realize that the canyon is nature's open book, with everything there to read if we just have the eyes. Without humans to look at it, the canyon would be pointless.

Everyone should visit the Grand Canyon.
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hag4s
post Apr 17 2007, 11:35 PM
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AMEN salute.gif

i believe in the colorado.
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tocarm
post Apr 18 2007, 12:37 AM
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Oceans Flow,

It's good to see you are on the "right track". For if you can 'comprehend' as well as 'understand' the granduer, the manifold intricacies, the lenght, the breathe and the depths of NATURE...then it is but takes the slightest bit more energy...a little 'spiritual nudge' if you will...to turn your wonderment & attention from the ARTIFACTS to the ARTIFACTOR - from creation to the Creator.

Looking out upon and assimilating every manner of 'thing' within creation, within this 'All' in which we all move, live and have our being is to make a direct connection with Reality. Then, to turn that same type of attention onto oneself, one's OWN beinghood within this 'All', is to recognize the stunning beauty and breath-taking Truth of one's own continually-being-sustained being-HOOD with an incredibly deep and rich NATURE that is perculiar only to human beings.

Then, to come to the realization that this 'All' in which one moves, lives and has his or her being-hood along with one's own continually-being-sustained being-hood has been provided by an 'Other' quite distinct from oneself is to entire into the very RELIGIOUS and very SPIRITUAL endevour/undertaking of what is termed "Contemplation".

It is in CONTEMPLATION of Self-Sustaining Truth that one "gropes confidently in blindness", so to speak, to both the realization as well as Summary Conclusion that it is this Creator Who BESTOWED LIFE & BEING-HOOD onto you.

This Wholely Other "Creator" Who has used the Powers of His Own Potent and Virile Nature just so happens to be >>YOUR FATHER<< in Heaven.

Hence, you might then be receptive to CHRIST'S instructions of HOW TO PRAY - which happens to be both a RELIGIOUS as well as SPIRITUAL sort of thing. His Instructions of HOW TO PRAY go like this by SAYING as well as CONTEMPLATING UPON these very simply, direct, to-the-point WORDS:

"OUR FATHER, Who art in Heaven - hallowed by Your Name! You Kingdom come. Your Will be done (not the Neo-cons...not the Zionists...not the Masons...not the Republicans...not the Democrats...not the International Bankers...etc.) ON EARTH as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation but DELIVER US FROM EVIL."

As simple as all of this really and truly is, the chances of getting 6 billion people on planet earth TO STOP all of their own personal and communal "tail chasing" - their running 'round and 'round in circles perpetually preoccupied with their own personal hubris-driven plots, plans and agendas - appears virtually NIL to me.

But "IF" we did get 6 billion people to do THAT...stopping what "they" wanted done here on earth (to include conquering the Middle East for Israel as well as all the OIL which resides therein) in order to get on with the very Real and True human life living business of seeing to it that God THEIR FATHER'S Will got done here on earth - within 24 hours - we'd ALL have a 'taste of Heaven' right here, right now on the surface of our planet earth.

But "La Dee Da" - people the world over MOCK and REJECT "religion" as well as "spiritual" things precisely because they much prefer living the life of animals - not having to "contemplate" either creation or creation's Creator SO THAT they can get on with the much more 'pressing business' of keeping their barns filled with whatever type of straw they prefer munching on 24/7/365 as well as being able to "stud" or "mate" whenever the urge or desire presents itself.

- tocarm
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tocarm
post Apr 18 2007, 12:52 PM
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With respect to "Religious" arguments, people either accept God's Self-Revelation in the Person of Jesus, The Christ - or they don't. They either accept God Incarnate's Teachings on/about Divine Things or they accept somebody else's or their own doctrines/dogmas of-about-with-for Divine Things.

Religious arguments are an utter waste of time unless those who have 'chosen sides' identify which side they promote - and it becomes a complete waste of time to engage in religious arguments with individuals who hold no allegience to any sect, cult or creed but have their own "original/unique/personal" religion!

If people wish to 'debate religion' here - at least take the time to identify which sect, cult or creed you adhere to/promote and to GO LEARN SOMETHING about their own religion!

Good resource website here:

http://religion-cults.com/

As GOD THE FATHER HIMSELF told Mother Eugenia back in 1932 A.D. - over 75 years ago now:

"Believe Me, if you had begun to honour Me with a special devotion from the times of the early Church, after twenty centuries few men would remain living in idolatry, in paganism and in so many FALSE AND EVIL SECTS, in which man is running blindly towards the abyss of eternal fire! (i.e. 'Hell')." quoting from:

http://www.theworkofgod.org/Library/Trinit...er/Message1.htm

GOD THE FATHER then conveys this following sentence:

"And see how much more remains to be done!"

Do you keep yourselves abreast as to just how ROYALLY SCREWED UP people in and throughout this 'world' of ours are making it by reading the headline stories posted at Jeff Rense?

http://www.rense.com/

Tell me...just exactly 'WHO?' is supposed TO FIX/REPAIR all "The Damage" all these people are causing a) The Human Race, B) their 'World' and c) Planet Earth??

Personally, I'm now EXHAUSTED at trying to stop these BLOOMIN' THREE PIECE SUITED JERKS holed up in Washington D.C. and all the capitols of the nations of this 'World' of ours from being the BUNCH OF >>MORONS<< the whole lot of them really and truly are!

- tocarm
http://www.carmelnet.org

This post has been edited by tocarm: Apr 18 2007, 01:21 PM
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MichaelMR
post Apr 18 2007, 10:37 PM
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Welcome back Tocarm. cheers.gif
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tocarm
post Apr 19 2007, 11:02 AM
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Hi MichaelMR,

Thanks for the 'Welcome Back'!

Had a very blessed and personally (spiritually) enriching Easter. The Lord's Own Annual Supernatural Miracle of "The Holy Fire" occured - just like clockwork - in Jerusalem for another year making that the longest running OBSERVABLE Supernatural Miracle made manifest by God Himself giving Divine Testimony to His Son's Resurrection.

Was granted a 'spiritual insight' in a moment of Grace - the entire human race is now at a spiritual 'Crossroads' - a point where each man, woman and child has to make their personal choice - they either follow the RELIGIOUS BELIEFS, TEACHINGS, DOCTRINES, DOGMAS & MORALITY of the International Bankers who direct and control the direction which the entire human race takes - OR - they follow God's Only Begotten Son's Divine Revelation, His Divine "Religous Beliefs" as well as His Divine Teachings, Doctrines, Dogmas and human Morality.

As U.S. 5 Star General Douglas MacArthur succinctly summarized it about 60 years ago: "The world struggle is not political or economic. Rather, it is religious and theological. It is either God or atheism."

250-300 million U.S. citizens as well as the other 5.75 billion or so people currently living here on this planet earth of His Creating and Sustaining ALL have to make their decision - their freely willed choice - either they follow GOD or they make themselves ATHEISTS and follow the International Finaciers & Bankers.

Everyone...and I mean >>EVERYONE<< has to make the choice - worship, adore and follow GOD or 'worship', 'adore' and 'follow' ATHEISTS and their 'god' of money.

In a sort of way - it's as if each individual of the human race is now playing "Texas Hold'em Poker" FOR (ETERNAL) KEEPS with God Himself. The human race is holding 3 - 5 off suite - the flop shows trip ACES - the Turn card shows a 5 (giving the human race a 'Full House' Aces full of Fives) and the River card now shows a THREE!

It seems as if the entire Human Race is going "All In" against God with its FULL HOUSE of Aces full of Fives!!!

What do YOU think? Do you think GOD is holding that FOURTH Ace??? God has ALREADY PUBLICLY PROCLAIMED He is, in fact, holding 'The Fourth Ace' via His Only Begotten Son Jesus, THE CHRIST!

The vast majority of our Human Race - particularly the vast majority of my "fellow U.S. citizens" - actually think and believe that >>GOD IS "BLUFFING"<<!!

Now I've tried to tell my "fellow U.S. citizens" they all need to BACK DOWN and "Fold!", "Fold!", "Fold!" - but nobody is listening!

- tocarm
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Sanders
post Apr 20 2007, 04:37 AM
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Good to see you Daniels smile.gif HowDy.gif
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tocarm
post Apr 20 2007, 10:07 AM
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Daniels,

Apparently you are laboring under the constraints and handicaps of an utter lack of proper Chrisitan catechetical instruction with respect to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Faith and His Church.

Off the top of my head, you are undoubtedly influenced/conditioned/made ignorant of religious/spiritual things on account of your "fundamentalism" as well as adherence to any one of a numerous sorts and types of heretical teachings.

So much for the the net results upon the human race as a result of "The Protestant Reformation".

Do yourself - no, do ME a huge, huge favor - go get yourself some degree of 'education' with respect these sorts of religious and spiritual things. I am tired of having TO DEAL WITH everyone and "their" Bibles utterly butchering Christ's Apostolic Faith and the doctrinal/moral/spiritual teachings of His Church here on earth.

GO READ - and "leave me alone"....for I am >>TIRED<<!

http://maritain.nd.edu/jmc/etext/mystic.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14254a.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14621a.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10663b.htm

http://www.amazon.com/Theology-Beginners-F...d/dp/0892831243

http://www.amazon.com/True-Devotion-Holy-S...z/dp/1928832059

Give EVERYBODY a copy of 'The (CATHOLIC CHURCH'S OWN CANON OF SACRED CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURE) Bible' or some sorts of set of 'holy scriptures' from anywhere else on planet earth - and VIOLA! - they all make themselves a) Theologians B) Biblical Experts c) Pastors/Preachers/Teachers and d) their own POPE or BISHOP of their "own church" and their own man-made "religion"!

'O Luther, Luther. How great is your responsibility! ... The intention of Christianity WAS TO CHANGE >EVERYTHING<!" - Soreen Kierkegaard, Danish theologian

After so many centuries - going around and around and around again IN CIRCLES, the human race has wound up right back a Spiritual/Religious "SQUARE ONE" - a bunch of pagans doing primative pagan things to each other.

- tocarm

P.S. ...and Daniels...what's your EXPERT religious/spiritual opinion...

Since those who have "heard" God's Voice are "mentally ill" - what do you call entire groups of people who SEE THINGS they attribute to God? Like in these:

http://www.holyfire.org/eng/video.htm

http://198.62.75.1/www1/apparitions/http:/pr00017.htm

Yep....lots and lots of people need some serious MENTAL HEALTH CARE all over the world - and NOT in Zeitun, Egypt nor in Jerusalem during the High Holy Days of the Easter Tridium - but more like in places like Washington, D.C. - 10 Downing Street in London, in Tel Aviv, etc.

This post has been edited by tocarm: Apr 20 2007, 10:25 AM
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Guinan
post Apr 20 2007, 10:30 AM
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OK Tocarm !! THAT'S ENOUGH NOW !!

You obviously haven't the foggiest idea who Daniels is. As a matter of fact he was (and still is) one of the most cherished members of this forum, albeit absent due to no fault or wish of his own.
QUOTE
Off the top of my head, you are undoubtedly influenced/conditioned/made ignorant of religious/spiritual things on account of your "fundamentalism" as well as adherence to any one of a numerous sorts and types of heretical teachings.

QUOTE
Do yourself - no, do ME a huge, huge favor - go get yourself some degree of 'education' with respect these sorts of religious and spiritual things.

WHERE do you get the authority to hurl this kind of remarks at someone whom you don't even know? Don't tell me, from god-almighty-himself no doubt, hah.. that's a laugh! You're 'hearing voices' and that makes YOU the representative on earth of the almighty? Getalife!!

QUOTE
I am tired of having TO DEAL WITH everyone and "their" Bibles utterly butchering Christ's Apostolic Faith and the doctrinal/moral/spiritual teachings of His Church here on earth.

GO READ - and "leave me alone"....for I am >>TIRED<<!


Well, NO ONE IS FORCING YOU - actually no one is even ASKING you to. If you are so tired, get some rest, better still, get yourself some professional help, you need it, you are one sick person!!

And LAY OFF DANIELS!!

Guinan
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p.w.rapp
post Apr 20 2007, 11:00 AM
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Guinan,
all I can add to what you just said is:

AMEN biggrin.gif

Hello Daniels! It's good to see you! smile.gif

@tocarm
Although I enjoyed reading various of your thoughts on P4T, I would never, EVER get envolved in a religious discussion with you.

Why?

Because, when it comes to Catholizims you don't discuss - you preach! wink.gif


See above.
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tocarm
post Apr 20 2007, 11:06 AM
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And Daniels,

Here are some other very good title for your edification:

"Introduction to the Devout Life" - St. Francis de Sales @

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/desales/devout_life.html

"The Cloud of Unknowing" - Anonymous English monk

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/anonymous2/cloud.html

"The Collected Works of St. John of the Cross" @

http://www.amazon.com/Collected-Works-Sain...s/dp/0935216146

****************************************************************

Now then, the simplest, the most easiest way to obtain God's Divine Graces is to "with desire" to obtain/frequent THE SACRAMENTS of His Church, principlely speaking here of 1) BAPTISM 2) CONFESSION/RECONCILIATION 3) The EUCHARIST & 4) CONFIRMATION/CHRISMATION.

And finally, a MOST POWERFUL AID to you in the nuturing, development and maturation of your own personal spiritual life - go and learn how to pray THE ROSARY. And then take your ROSARY and go prayerfully medidate upon the Mysteries of the Rosary while having parked yourself in REVERENT SILENCE before God in His Eucharistic Sacrament reserved in what is call 'The Tabernacle' of ANY Catholic Church parish anywheres on planet earth.

- tocarm
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Guinan
post Apr 20 2007, 01:55 PM
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Yeah, that's right.... completely disregard anyone else's posts...
After all, it's only YOUR opinion that matters, isn't it??

You are DEAF, DUMB and BLIND, and you don't even know it...

pathetic
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tocarm
post Apr 20 2007, 07:16 PM
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Guinan,

The HOLY SPIRIT gave me the the following to share WITH YOU prior to me signing on and having TO READ your last posting here to me:

1) The GLOBAL RELIGIOUS/SPIRITUAL situation with respect to THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE has been, is and will continue to be this:

2) EVERYONE (to include yourself) wants "GOD'S GOODIES" whether seen or Unseen. Trouble is people (to include yourself) DO NOT WANT to acknowledge Him, accept Him, love Him, adore Him and >OBEY< Him (at least until He returns to us again in His Divine Glory).

3) I, "tocarm", cannot do for you that which GOD THE FATHER Himself excepts YOU to do for YOURSELF BY YOURSELF!

Your 'personal' religious-spiritual-biblical-catechetical 'Lectio Divina' TUTORING:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...:17;&version=31

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...:17;&version=31

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...-12;&version=31

- tocarm
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Guinan
post Apr 20 2007, 10:44 PM
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Fer Crissake Tocarm, when will you understand that I am not interested in what the so-called 'holy spirit' has to say through your mouth.

Somewhere behind all that mumbo-jumbo there is a man of flesh and blood, there has to be, holy spirits don't type posts on the internet as far as I know...
Perhaps you could come out from behind that facade and interact with us as a HUMAN BEING, someone with a name, an adress, perhaps a wife and children, a job, hobbies (other than religion), a garden which needs keeping, an attic which needs cleaning up, a past, present and future, hair that's going gray or disapearing altogether - I don't care how futile the particulars might be, but please be a HUMAN BEING for a change! We want to get to know YOU, but you ARE NOT THERE!

We're all just PEOPLE here, friends on this forum, all of us very different from one another and trying to get to know eachother. Don't you want to do the same?? Or do you wish to alienate every single one of us here with your constant badgering and belitteling of everyone who has a different opinion than you have on the matter of religion?? You're well on your way to doing just that.

If, on the other hand, you wish to hide behind your religious dogmas, please take your business elsewhere, we cannot be friends with an INSTITUTION. There are plenty of places on the web where you'll find people who are likewise inclined. This is NOT one of them.

Still searching for the 'real' Tocarm...

Guinan
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p.w.rapp
post Apr 20 2007, 11:33 PM
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Guinan, I love you wub.gif

Your post perfectly sums it up from a heartfelt, interpersonal, emotional… from a woman's POV!

@tocarm
I’m not sure whether you get the point.
– if you don’t, I sadly agree with Guinan:
There are plenty of places on the web where you'll find people who are likewise inclined. This is NOT one of them.
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Sanders
post Apr 20 2007, 11:52 PM
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Ditto wub.gif , ditto, and ditto
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MichaelMR
post Apr 21 2007, 03:29 AM
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Hey Daniels, welcome back buddy. We missed ya man. biggrin.gif
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