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The "religious" Problem Is This, (In a THREE SENTENCE nutshell)

Jarroyo
post Apr 27 2007, 12:42 PM
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QUOTE (Daniels @ Apr 20 2007, 01:39 AM)
QUOTE (tocarm @ Apr 18 2007, 09:00 AM)



... I've been in His Presence, heard His Voice and had His Holy Spirit "show me a thing or two" with respect to the reality of the Supernatural and Divine Realm.


Hi Tocarm

I belive in God.

However, I have heard it said:

"When we pray we speak to God. This is good."

"Unfortunately, when God speaks to us, this is illness."

We speak to God through prayer, God speaks to us through the Holy Books. Anything else is Revelation, and God doesn't Reveal directly to humans -- only to Holy Prophets.

cheers.gif

I agree wholeheartedly. I posted this in another thread as a reply to Mr. Tocarm. But I think here is a more appropriate place to post it.

So I'm gonna repost if nobody opposes. biggrin.gif

============================

QUOTE
If people AREN'T going to believe what God Incarnate in Jesus, THE CHRIST, has to say about 'the spiritual life' - what makes them think that when they have a 'spiritual experience' that it is really and truly COMING FROM GOD???

And if it ISN'T coming from God - from whence does/do these spiritual experiences eminate or originate from??? Hmmm???


The Bible clearly states that God will no longer talk to men, or execute miracles, or prophecies in this time of day.

All these modern "revelations" or "visions" or "contacts" do not come from God, the Bible said that these gifts will no longer be.

The miraculous gifts of God's holy spirit were not going to prevail forever in the Christian congregation. You can read 1 Corinthians and reach that conclusion yourself, it's a very beautiful passage. It talks about love, hope and faith.

Anyways, in 1 Corinthians 13:8 tells us:

QUOTE (KJC)
"Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away."


QUOTE (NLT)
Love will last forever, but prophecy and speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge will all disappear.


Let's read the context. Shall we?

QUOTE (1 Corinthians 13:1-3)
1  If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but do not have love, I have become a sounding [piece of] brass or a clashing cymbal. 2  And if I have the gift of prophesying and am acquainted with all the sacred secrets and all knowledge, and if I have all the faith so as to transplant mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3  And if I give all my belongings to feed others, and if I hand over my body, that I may boast, but do not have love, I am not profited at all.


The apostle Paul is telling us, how these divine gifts (such as speaking in tongues. prophesying, et al) are worthless if he does not have love. He continues to describe love:

QUOTE (1 Corinthians 13:4-8a)
4  Love is long-suffering and kind. Love is not jealous, it does not brag, does not get puffed up, 5  does not behave indecently, does not look for its own interests, does not become provoked. It does not keep account of the injury. 6  It does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. 7  It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never fails.[...]


He then goes to say:

QUOTE (1 Corinthians 13:8b)
But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with.


Paul says that these special gifts, these divine gifts, will cease, tey be done away with. And goes on to explain why these gifts where going to cease.

QUOTE (1 Corinthians 13:9-12)
9  For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; 10  but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with. 11  When I was a babe, I used to speak as a babe, to think as a babe, to reason as a babe; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the [traits] of a babe. 12  For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known.


At that moment, the knowledge and the understanding of the Scriptures was not very clear and it was not complete. God even told David to "seal" the prophecies he had written, for they were to have an interpretation later on.

So, since we wouldn't have gifts of prophesying, or gifts of miracles, or gifts to talk to God directly. Which was one of the things the apostles and early Christians used to convert others. Then what was left for US to convince others of the truth? What would we have? Paul clarifies:

QUOTE (1 Corinthians 13:13)
13  Now, however, there remain faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.


We have these 3 powerful weapons at our disposal. Apart from that, we no longer have "partial knowledge", we now have become men and we "know accurately". We have clear and complete information, and these divine gifts are no longer necessary for us to sustain our faith or to convince others of the biblical truth.

But when did these "powers" ceased?

According to Acts 8:18, these miracle gifts "through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given". And after the Pentecost, every registered case of Holy Spirit pouring accompanied with miraculous gifts took place with the presence of one or more a apostles of Jesus. (Acts 8:9-20; 10:44-46; 19:6) Evidently, the giving of these powers ceased with the apostles death, and when those who had received them died, those gifts completely ceased from the Christian congregation.

To quote you:

And if it ISN'T coming from God - from whence does/do these spiritual experiences eminate or originate from??? Hmmm???

Paul warned us that an apostasy influence would infiltrate the Christians and "is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing" (2 Thessalonians 2:3, 9, 10)

So these miraculous encounters and experiences are coming from "wicked spirit forces ". (Ephesians 6:12)

J
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p.w.rapp
post Apr 27 2007, 06:28 PM
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@tocarm
thanks for your answer.
I'll have to think about a few things when the right moment has come.
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tocarm
post Apr 28 2007, 11:03 AM
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Dear Zap,

If you might think there is a 'something' with which I may, just may, be able to help you out with or answer/address for you - feel free to ask me.

If I don't know the answer or correct response, I'll tell you straight out at the onset.

Do understand that I must use the talents God has given me along with any and all Graces He might choose to provide me with as a 'Catechism teacher'. After all, He is the One Who asked/urged/'insisted' I volunteer to take on the vocation of a catechism teacher in His Church. I try to do my best to serve Him.

I can share this with you in all candid truth. I pondered upon what appeared to me interiorly/spiritually as a GREAT RESPONSIBILITY when I began giving catechetical instruction to teenagers/young adults...'Who? Me??? Teaching others about God and Divine Things? Who do I think I am?" But since I did respond to the Parish Priest and Pastor's request during the homily of the Mass (aka 'The Divine Liturgy') for folks WILLING to "belly up to the bar" in order to help him out, I couldn't just sit there not responding to another's call for help/assistance.

And ya wanna know something 'funny' about my experience as a Catechism teacher in the Church following getting the Diocese's Bishops' approval and permission to teach catechism classes for those preparing for the Sacrament of Confirmation (or 'Chrismation' as it is called by the Church in the East)???

I have had students in my classes who asked me some of their most deeply personal vexing, troubling and probing QUESTIONS regarding God. I've had mere 13 or 14 year old students ask me such incredibly THEOLOGICAL questions I had absolutely no idea 13 or 14 year olds were capable of formulating in their minds, let alone have those personal questions as a personal spiritual 'burden' to them at such a young age!

And here is the 'kicker' about my recollections upon being a Catechism teacher for these teenagers and young adults and their incredible diverse, probing and searching questions with regards to the Apostolic CHRISTIAN Faith...

...never...never...never...NEVER...has there been a single instance when having to be the "Teacher" for these Confirmation class students/candidates that the Holy Spirit DID NOT give me/provide me/lead me/help me discover THE ANSWER to any student's PERSONAL/INDIVIDUAL question!

And my great joy...no...my great 'reward' at being a Catechism teacher has been seeing the Way, the Manner and the Results God the Holy Spirit Himself brought about in the personal lives of a number of the students who attended my classes!

Makes one very humble...as well as very amazed...and very glad/joyous...in recognizing that God has used me as an 'instrument' to bring such new life and great blessings to others....makes me kinda/sorta 'dumbfounded'.

- tocarm
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tocarm
post Apr 28 2007, 11:23 AM
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Jarroyo,

You've taken the Catholic Church's Own Canon of Sacred CHRISTIAN Scriptures
(aka 'The Bible') and are perverting/destroying them.

The Church's Canon of Sacred CHRISTIAN Scripture was given official recognition by the PROPER ecclesiastical authority in Christ's Own Church at the Councils of Carthage and Hippo circa 397-400 AD so that CHRISTIANS would be ensured they were receiving the APOSTOLIC FAITH as well as the APOSTOLIC INSTRUCTION during their celebration and public act of Divine Worship DURING any valid MASS or DIVINE LITURGY carried out by those designated by a valid CHRISTIAN CHURCH BISHOP - in that part of the Christian Eucharistic Liturgy known as 'The Liturgy of the Word'.

Who 'authorized' YOU to discard, discredit, impugn, denounce, change/alter APOSTOLIC teaching and tradition? Who??

'Your' BIBLE has it in Acts 2:42:

"There remained FAITHFUL TO THE TEACHING OF >>THE APOSTLES<<, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of (Liturgical Eucharistic) BREAD, and to the (Liturgical and Devotional) PRAYERS."

You wish to DENY the Supernatural/Divine Miracles Christ Himself has produced repeated for HIS Church here on earth down through the centuries since YOU and your 'cult/sect/denomination' what to make YOURSELVES Christ's Apostles and Christ's Spokesman!

You denounce the Gifts and Graces of God the Holy Spirit since 'you' and 'your cult' want to exhault your humanly contrived thoughts, ideas and goals OVER and ABOVE God the Holy Spirit Himself!

In the final religious/spiritual analysis, you and your 'cult' want to believe that you can DIVINIZE yourselves - that you can SAVE yourselves by 'your' and 'your cults' powers - that you own personal interpretations and readings of/into the Catholic Church's Own Canon of Sacred CHRISTIAN Scripture are THE EQUIVALENT to Divine Revelation & Teaching given by God's Only Begotten Son Jesus, THE CHRIST - God Incarnate - The Word of God made Flesh.

You are nothing but 'gnostics' who use stolen SACRED SCRIPTURES in order to create your own religion in a vain attempt to make yourselves either "religious" or "spiritual" MASTERS over others.

'Sola Scriptura' and 'Sola Fide' - the two principle pillars upon which the ENTIRE Protestant Reformation is built and maintained are both >A FARSE< which has done nothing these past 500 years but TO IMPEDE and TO CONFOUND the moral, ethical, spiritual and religious lives of hundreds of millions of poor souls so as to serve the spiritual IGNORANCE as well as the spiritual HUBRIS of so many cult, sect, denominational and national 'church' leaders!

That...in A NUTSHELL...sir, is my reponse to your intrusive posting/reply.

- tocarm
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MichaelMR
post Apr 28 2007, 04:31 PM
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You just attacked everything but Jarroyo arguments. Not only that, you made false accusations and made up your own preconception on his beliefs.

He called you on your condescending rants with factual references from the bible. So far, everything he has said with biblical quotes contradicts your “preaching.” You don’t like it so obviously the barrage of ad hominem attacks came out.

Man up, Tocarm, and address his post instead of claiming something that only exists in your head and beliefs. No other Christian member of this board agrees with what you’ve said, doesn’t that speak volumes?
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Sanders
post Apr 28 2007, 05:14 PM
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I think it is important to have a religion forum at this forum. Many of the issues facing us are religious in nature. However, no one is free to express their opinions in the religious forum for fear of, for some time now, tocarm's rants.

That is the definition of a troll.

Sorry. I'm banning him. I can't suffer it any longer. This is not something I do lightly, I have pondered this decision for months. But I know posters who don't post here because of this issue. I have tried, we all have tried, to penetrate that holy armor. It is useless. I'm tired of him being an anchor weighing down this forum of free thinkers. He has shown that he has no capacity to listen, or to learn - only to preach. Don't need it, and it cramps our style. Good luck, see you.

-Sanders

Edit: not banned, guest.
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Carl Bank
post Apr 28 2007, 05:44 PM
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Brave step. Brave and needed.

But are you not afraid a beind struck by a lighning while sitting on the toilet now?

definetly would be, but is save, 'cause he didn't ban him: Carl


typos

This post has been edited by Carl Bank: Apr 28 2007, 05:45 PM
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Sanders
post Apr 28 2007, 05:47 PM
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QUOTE (Carl Bank @ Apr 29 2007, 06:44 AM)
But are you not afraid a being struck by a lighning while sitting on the toilet now?

Thanks for the heads up Carl, I'll be carefull not to relieve myself during any electrical storms for a while.


Bzzzzzt !!!
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Sanders
post Apr 28 2007, 05:51 PM
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Changed tocarm from guest to banned.

Thought it was more civil.
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MichaelMR
post Apr 28 2007, 05:56 PM
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Good move Sanders, I really thought we could talk to him but apparently that doesn't work. Those condescending rants are gone and the monopolization of the religion forum has been stopped.

Are you the angel from above? ohmy.gif

LOL

Finally this place is free.
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Guinan
post Apr 28 2007, 07:36 PM
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OK, OK....

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Devilsadvocate
post Apr 29 2007, 02:53 PM
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QUOTE (MichaelMR @ Apr 28 2007, 04:56 PM)
Good move Sanders, I really thought we could talk to him but apparently that doesn't work. Those condescending rants are gone and the monopolization of the religion forum has been stopped.

Are you the angel from above? ohmy.gif

LOL

Finally this place is free.

...I wonder if this falls under the definition of "exorcism"... wink.gif

spinhalo.gif spinhalo.gif spinhalo.gif spinhalo.gif spinhalo.gif spinhalo.gif spinhalo.gif spinhalo.gif spinhalo.gif


(In which case people won't have to worry about the electric storm-thing! banger.gif)
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Guinan
post Apr 29 2007, 03:03 PM
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QUOTE (Devilsadvocate @ Apr 29 2007, 08:53 PM)
...I wonder if this falls under the definition of "exorcism"... wink.gif

spinhalo.gif  spinhalo.gif  spinhalo.gif  spinhalo.gif  spinhalo.gif  spinhalo.gif  spinhalo.gif  spinhalo.gif  spinhalo.gif 


(In which case people won't have to worry about the electric storm-thing! banger.gif)

After placing my previous post I went and lined the bathroom with rubber.... just in case...
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Devilsadvocate
post Apr 29 2007, 03:28 PM
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QUOTE (Guinan @ Apr 29 2007, 02:03 PM)
QUOTE (Devilsadvocate @ Apr 29 2007, 08:53 PM)

...I wonder if this falls under the definition of "exorcism"... wink.gif

spinhalo.gif  spinhalo.gif  spinhalo.gif  spinhalo.gif  spinhalo.gif  spinhalo.gif  spinhalo.gif  spinhalo.gif  spinhalo.gif 


(In which case people won't have to worry about the electric storm-thing! banger.gif)

After placing my previous post I went and lined the bathroom with rubber.... just in case...

...You worry too much, Meisje. It's nothing that a few cloves of garlic and the odd strategically placed cross around the house couldn't take care of, you know... wink.gif
Those damn black birds are far worse, i tell ya. I swear they wait 'til i leave the house- hellish aim they got! rolleyes.gif
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Guinan
post Apr 29 2007, 03:50 PM
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Wanna borrow my 'trio' for a while??

- Snowy
- Bluey &
- Ginger

They'll send those birds packin' in no time cheers.gif

Guinan
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Devilsadvocate
post Apr 29 2007, 05:38 PM
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QUOTE (Guinan @ Apr 29 2007, 02:50 PM)
Wanna borrow my 'trio' for a while??

- Snowy
- Bluey &
- Ginger

They'll send those birds packin' in no time cheers.gif

Guinan

Thanks for the offer, Guinan; but it won't do much good.
I got a neighbour who keeps feeding a bunch of feral cats; at one point there were 27 of them (no joke!).
But there are also enough feral black birds around to make the Luftwaffe look like a bunch of robins on a weekend outing...
Believe me, they won't stand a chance! laugh.gif
...And garlic doesn's seem to help either- i hope they stick to the bread the other neighbour feeds them by the tons! whistle.gif
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Guinan
post Apr 29 2007, 08:41 PM
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QUOTE (Devilsadvocate @ Apr 29 2007, 11:38 PM)
Thanks for the offer, Guinan; but it won't do much good.
I got a neighbour who keeps feeding a bunch of feral cats; at one point there were 27 of them (no joke!).
But there are also enough feral black birds around to make the Luftwaffe look like a bunch of robins on a weekend outing...
Believe me, they won't stand a chance! laugh.gif
...And garlic doesn's seem to help either- i hope they stick to the bread the other neighbour feeds them by the tons! whistle.gif


I made myself a nice strong garlic-rice tonight. It might not help against the blackbirds, but it sure helps to keep the men off my back! ... and the vampire-types I hope

G.

[edit] Tip: grab the neighbours bread, smear it with pressed garlic and feed it to the birds, see how they like that! Of course the damn birds keep coming back - if they're being fed !

This post has been edited by Guinan: Apr 29 2007, 08:44 PM
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Jarroyo
post May 1 2007, 09:11 PM
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QUOTE (MichaelMR @ Apr 28 2007, 04:56 PM)
  You just attacked everything but Jarroyo arguments. Not only that, you made false accusations and made up your own preconception on his beliefs.

He called you on your condescending rants with factual references from the bible. So far, everything he has said with biblical quotes contradicts your “preaching.” You don’t like it so obviously the barrage of ad hominem attacks came out.

Man up, Tocarm, and address his post instead of claiming something that only exists in your head and beliefs. No other Christian member of this board agrees with what you’ve said, doesn’t that speak volumes?


Thanks Micheal. I reposted it because I knew he was trying to avoid my biblical post. He only replied trying to attack me without even knowing me.

I frequent the Loose Change Forum and when I have to talk about something of religious nature I always, ALWAYS use the Bible. It is really funny how a teacher of Cathecism (sp?) can't address the Bible. This is pretty much what defines the Catholics and most religious fanatics; leaders feed them with Covenants and Churches Commands rather than what the Bible really says.

But just for the fun of it, allow me to address his post:

=========
@tocarm

QUOTE
You've taken the Catholic Church's Own Canon of Sacred CHRISTIAN Scriptures
(aka 'The Bible') and are perverting/destroying them.


blink.gif So the Bible is now the Catholic Church's property?

I am not perverting nor destroying anything, unlike you, I just quoted openly from the Bible instead of nitpicking what fits your doctrines.

QUOTE
The Church's Canon of Sacred CHRISTIAN Scripture was given official recognition by the PROPER ecclesiastical authority in Christ's Own Church at the Councils of Carthage and Hippo circa 397-400 AD so that CHRISTIANS would be ensured they were receiving the APOSTOLIC FAITH as well as the APOSTOLIC INSTRUCTION during their celebration and public act of Divine Worship DURING any valid MASS or DIVINE LITURGY carried out by those designated by a valid CHRISTIAN CHURCH BISHOP - in that part of the Christian Eucharistic Liturgy known as 'The Liturgy of the Word'.


blahblah1.gif [irrelevant rambling]

I see no Bible verses in that paragraph that assign authority to the Catholic Church. I just see a lot of fancy words disguising a pathetic response.

QUOTE
Who 'authorized' YOU to discard, discredit, impugn, denounce, change/alter APOSTOLIC teaching and tradition? Who??


Tradition? You want YOUR tradition to be above what the Bible says. Jesus clearly prophetized about you in Matthew 15:6 -

QUOTE (Matthew 15:6)
And so YOU have made the word of God invalid because of YOUR TRADITION.


[notice Jesus was talking about the pharisees. See any similarities?]

QUOTE
'Your' BIBLE has it in Acts 2:42:

"There remained FAITHFUL TO THE TEACHING OF >>THE APOSTLES<<, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of (Liturgical Eucharistic) BREAD, and to the (Liturgical and Devotional) PRAYERS."


Exactly. Those teachings are the ones expressed in the Bible, not what the Catholic Church wants to say they are. Those teachings are the ones I quoted from the Bible.
Who are you to contradict what the Bible says?

QUOTE
You wish to DENY the Supernatural/Divine Miracles Christ Himself has produced repeated for HIS Church here on earth down through the centuries since YOU and your 'cult/sect/denomination' what to make YOURSELVES Christ's Apostles and Christ's Spokesman!

You denounce the Gifts and Graces of God the Holy Spirit since 'you' and 'your cult' want to exhault your humanly contrived thoughts, ideas and goals OVER and ABOVE God the Holy Spirit Himself!

In the final religious/spiritual analysis, you and your 'cult' want to believe that you can DIVINIZE yourselves - that you can SAVE yourselves by 'your' and 'your cults' powers - that you own personal interpretations and readings of/into the Catholic Church's Own Canon of Sacred CHRISTIAN Scripture are THE EQUIVALENT to Divine Revelation & Teaching given by God's Only Begotten Son Jesus, THE CHRIST - God Incarnate - The Word of God made Flesh.

You are nothing but 'gnostics' who use stolen SACRED SCRIPTURES in order to create your own religion in a vain attempt to make yourselves either "religious" or "spiritual" MASTERS over others.

'Sola Scriptura' and 'Sola Fide' - the two principle pillars upon which the ENTIRE Protestant Reformation is built and maintained are both >A FARSE< which has done nothing these past 500 years but TO IMPEDE and TO CONFOUND the moral, ethical, spiritual and religious lives of hundreds of millions of poor souls so as to serve the spiritual IGNORANCE as well as the spiritual HUBRIS of so many cult, sect, denominational and national 'church' leaders!


laughing1.gif I generally don't laugh in these kinds of discussions, but you "sir" deserve no respect. What a pathetic response!

In which part of the "Catholic Church's Own Canon of Sacred CHRISTIAN Scripture" does it allow priests to rape young children, be disgusting pedophiles, steel money from the Church, [insert disgusting priest's activity here]? Your defending the most disgusting form of religion on the face of the Earth.

QUOTE
That...in A NUTSHELL...sir, is my reponse to your intrusive posting/reply.


That, in a nutshell, is your knee-jerk reaction to a well-thought biblical response. Notice that he did not touch one of the verses I quoted. He only provides personal attacks.

handsdown.gif What a great Christian! rolleyes.gif

Mr. Tocarm, you have met your match... The Bible. Too bad you were guestified. I only reply with the Bible, not with the oh-so mighty Catholic Church.

Good day, sir,

J

This post has been edited by Jarroyo: May 1 2007, 09:15 PM
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