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Tamborineman's religious rant, Split from "Bush Warns anew of terror"

Tamborine man
post Jul 25 2007, 12:13 PM
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Yes, the Presidents speech gives out quite ominous unpalatable messages
which, sadly, compels one to show how the spirituel world looks at the situation!



ALL WARFARE IS ROOTED IN DARKNESS

In his “State of the Union” address 2003, President George W. Bush concluded his speech with these words:


“We Americans have faith in ourselves, but not in ourselves alone. We do not
know – we do not claim to know all the ways of Providence, yet we can trust in them, placing our confidence in the loving God behind all of life, and all of history.

May He guide us now. And may God continue to bless the United States of America.”


Whether the President and his administration have since placed their confidence in ‘the loving God behind all of life’, and whether this God in the same period have guided the President and blessed the United States of America, is today worthy of a new look, and we hope the answer to these questions will appear to all good and kind people in the messages that follows.

Let us remind ourselves first and foremost of the Golden Rule (which is present in virtually all known religions, as well as being used by more prominent Philosophers, Scribes and Sages, through the ages), and which simply state: Do to others as you would others do to you, when destitution, sickness or sufferings in various ways befalls you.
Coinciding with the Golden Rule, we were also given this little simple advise: As you sow, so shall you reap!

In the Light of this, let us go on and carefully read these extracts from a unique work by the apt name of “Toward the Light”, first published in 1920.

____________

"I speak unto you who are the rulers of the many nations, whether you be rulers by inheritance or election, and whichever title you may bear. Hear me, for I speak unto you all!?
Make it your common goal that each of you shall become the best and most worthy person of your nation. Demand much of yourselves, that you may demand much of others. Be beyond reproach in your dealings, that all may respect, honour and love you. Choose your counsellors with great care and wisdom, and choose them from among those who are unselfish, truthful, wise and just. Protect the weak, the poor and the oppressed. Be unselfish in your care for the welfare of the nations and the peoples. Never act against that which your conscience tells you to be truth and justice.?
Do not gain dominion over the realms of others by force or by cunning, and never compel the people of other nations to submit in humility to your rule; for all this is of the evil!?
Be understanding and patient toward the people whose native countries have been seized by your forefathers, by your predecessors or by yourselves. Seek to rectify and to assuage some of the injustice that has been brought upon those who have been compelled by force and through hatred and envy to live under foreign rule, and who against their will have been separated from those states to which they rightfully belong.?
Be as brethren toward one another. With good will abolish all strife and dispute, and never disturb the peace which prevails among the realms and the nations.?
Yea, truly I say unto you: be you the first to establish an enduring, brotherly concord; and pray unto our Father to bless you and the pact which you agree upon, that you and your successors may be able to keep the promises that you have given one another. Yea, pray unto our Father to bless you, that you and those who come after you may never, never again break the peace upon the Earth!

Pray unto our Father to enlighten you upon the truth of my words. Pray unto Him for help and guidance, that each of you may truly fill the position that is yours.


I speak unto you who are the givers of laws, unto you who in numerous ways take part in
the various kinds of governance in the nations and the states. Hear me, for I speak unto you all!?
Make it your common goal fully and with all your might to serve the country and the people to which you belong. Prepare your laws as though you yourselves should be judged by each and every statute, for then will your laws be just.?
Do not by guile or with deceit force yourselves into high positions that are not rightfully yours and which you cannot properly fill. Be truthful to the utmost and be sincere in all your speech. Never act against your conscience, indeed, never act upon selfish thoughts of personal gain! Cease all your disgraceful strife and quarrelling. Never hurl bitter or hateful words against those who share not your beliefs. Do not besmirch the name and honour of your adversaries by false accusations, by untrue and wicked slander. Be meek toward one another. Go to meet one another, seek to work in mutual peace and understanding, that you may best further the interests of the nations and the peoples.?
Abolish all condemning unto death; for no human being has the right to take the life of another, no matter how many crimes have been committed. Do not prepare laws that compel your brethren to murder and to slay one another in warfare; for all this is of the evil! Let all bearing of arms be of the free will, until all the nations and lands upon the Earth are united in a lasting, unbreakable pact of peace.?
Give proper care unto the poor, unto the sick and to the wretched of all ages - men as well as women - unto all abandoned wives, unto all needy widows and unto all orphans among you. For I say unto you: however vast your nation may be, there shall not be one single human being in distress - man, woman or child - who must beg for their daily bread. Nor must anyone able and willing to labour drift about without home and without work. Therefore, provide shelter, food, clothing and work without delay for all who cannot obtain these for themselves.?
Support not and help not in any manner by which it becomes demeaning charity, but in such manner that those who receive the help and support from your society can with gladness and gratitude accept the help that is offered them.?
Yea, truly, I say unto you: your obligations are many, and your responsibility is great; I ask you therefore carefully to consider that which I have said unto you. For you shall know that if out of selfishness or faintness of heart you give not care unto the poor, unto the suffering and to the unfortunate, then shall you surely taste the want and misery of the homeless and the poor in your coming lives upon the Earth until you have learnt to take pity on your unfortunate fellow human beings.
Pray unto our Father to open your eyes, that you may see the truth of my words. Pray unto our Father to sustain and to guide you; for is He with you, then shall your laws surely be fully just.”

____________

There is in todays world much fear that the United States are contemplating to launch a nuclear strike against Iran and are just waiting for the right opportunity to manifest itself! before embarking on such a campaign. The consequences of this kind of attack could cause utter devastation, and cause horrendous sufferings to millions of people, as a conflict of this magnitude would surely spread to neighbouring countries and beyond! Indeed, the ramifications would be very disastrous not only for the nations involved, but also for the leaders themselves who so foolishly would be considering actions of this nature. In order to prevent such a terrible conflict to become reality, let us again turn to another extract of text from the same work which deals with the question of warfare and its implications:

____________

“ - In one area that is equally important to the upbringing of children - namely the area of legislation - human beings can themselves assist in improving conditions on Earth through the enactment of laws that have been carefully considered, laws that do not restrain the initiative of the free will or compel the individual to act against the best and the noblest in every human mind. For laws of coercion of any kind that are issued by the leaders and the rulers of the different countries serve only to promote the power of Darkness and to obstruct the progress of the Light. There must of course be laws to regulate the domestic and foreign affairs of countries and the postures of nations toward each other, but if it happens that these laws compel people to act contrary to their inner conviction, against their conscience, or if the natural development of the free will is impeded, then these laws will have only a destructive effect, and the rulers will have abused their power.?
Among such laws of coercion must be counted, for example, compulsory military service.?
So long as military service is only "peaceful", the many open air exercises and the discipline can in many ways have a beneficial effect on body and spirit, provided that the officers and superiors act humanely and do not abuse their authority in a degrading and improper fashion. But as soon as the game of war turns to deadly earnest and the soldiers are confronted with stark reality, facing living masses that will become fodder for their cannons, sabres, bayonets and other weapons, when they know that they will become the cause of the maiming or death of many people, then most of them must do violence to their conscience in order to act in the manner demanded by the leadership of their country. The best and the noblest in the souls of such human beings is often destroyed, since in order to deaden the rising abhorrence for the deed they are about to commit they let themselves be gripped by the din and the fury of battle and act blindly in order to avoid thinking of the horror that is before them. These human beings should never be compelled to commit such deeds, since very often it is they who in the battle's confusing and degrading turmoil commit the worst and entirely unnecessary atrocities.?
But as long as the law governing compulsory military service exists, it is to no avail that single individuals or several in concert refuse to comply with the duty that is demanded by a country's government, since this kind of insubordination only brings harm to the disobedient and in no way upsets the existing order. In such cases there is but one thing to do: to submit to the duties that are imposed by society, even though performance of such duties clashes with one's innermost feelings. By acting in this way the individual stands with a clear conscience, while the responsibility for these compulsory actions will fall upon those who originate and enforce such laws.?
These coercive laws should therefore be repealed by the leaders, the legislators and the rulers; when they realize that such coercion cannot be in harmony with God's desires and purposes, the time will have come for the existing laws to be repealed and replaced by new laws.?
In order to provide a transition from present conditions to the time when a general and universal peace among all nations is an accomplished fact, all military service should be a voluntary matter, with no compulsion whatsoever of the individual, since responsibility for the many untimely deaths, the many murders and atrocities and the destruction is placed by God upon the leaders, the legislators and the rulers, even though the individual soldier - the aggressor as well as the defender - must give account of all the unnecessary cruelties of which he is personally guilty. On the other hand, if military service is placed on a voluntary basis until further notice, then the chief responsibility will be evenly divided among all the participants in war, the leaders as well as the soldiers in the field.?

All warfare is against God's Will and is in conflict with the laws of the Light, and it benefits neither one nor the other warring nation to call upon God's assistance as supreme war lord; any supplication to God to bless the armaments or to bless the armies, so that under His leadership they may gain victory over their opponents, is therefore a blasphemous prayer.?
Any conception of God as war lord or war leader must be rooted out, since all bloodshed, all destruction, all subversion is completely irreconcilable with the nature of God. Again and again God has sought to lead human beings to a complete understanding of love for their neighbours and respect for all that belongs to them. Time and again ever since the dawn of history God's emissaries have proclaimed to human beings: "You shall not kill, nor take by force, nor rob, nor plunder!" But so far the appeal has been in vain, human beings have not yet been able to free themselves from the primal urge of brutish self-assertion through violence to the detriment of their fellow human beings. So long as the individual members of the nations of the world do not unite and strive toward mutual peace and forbearance, so long as human beings cannot with complete faith in God's Fatherliness and Justice place everything in His hand and with trust submit to His leadership, so long as the will of the many is not one with His Will, so long can bloodshed, violence and war not cease, and so long can the hope for peace not be victorious on Earth.?
Human beings must overcome the influence of Darkness, overcome hatred, curses, envy and lust for power through belief in God's existence and by trusting His guidance, rather than through prayers for help to crush their enemies and opponents by acts of violence for God never hears and never answers such prayers.?
If it could be conceived that an entire people were united in complete trust in God and in the absolute certitude that no evil arising from ambitious, envious or rapacious neighbours could befall them, then even the most evil of designs would fall to the ground, since it would be lost on so unanimous and complete a faith. But where can such a people be found? Humanity is still in its infancy, and centuries or millennia may pass before full understanding of such an unshakeable relationship of trust between God and human beings can be attained.

Thus, all warfare is rooted in Darkness and is brought about by the mutual intolerance of the various nations, which in turn can be attributed to the lust for power of the leaders and the rulers. If the human will for evil thus calls forth fighting and destruction and a war begins, the nation that initiates the hostilities must bear the responsibility for the war of aggression as well as for the war of defence forced upon the other nation and its allies, regardless of the forms that the war may take. And so long as the attacked nation limits itself to the defence of its country, of its rights, the aggressor will continue to be in the wrong. But the moment the defender extends the hostilities to the territory of the aggressor in order to attack rather than to defend, both sides must share the responsibility for whatever takes place from the moment the border into enemy territory is crossed. (The same laws apply if the battles are fought at sea or in the air).
The victory or defeat of the warring parties can in no way be attributed to God. Never does He take part in the hostilities, neither on the side of the aggressor nor on the side of the defender. Only prayers for help to restore peace will be heard by God, but His many and persistent attempts to speak to the leaders as their "conscience" are in most cases rejected.
The victorious party defeats its adversary by virtue of numerical or strategic superiority or the like, or because of the people's common hatred of the enemy and the people's common will to win; but victory is never gained with the help of God.
Any person - civilian or military - who praises, defends and glorifies war in writing or in speech, instead of evoking aversion to this deed of Darkness and enlightening his fellow human beings on the degradation and brutishness of war, is himself placing a heavy burden of responsibility on his shoulders and must, having ended his earthly life, render a detailed account to God of the motivations for his actions.
Even though human beings wage war among themselves, and even though God does not hear their prayers for victory, He never loses sight of them, but seeks either directly or through the disincarnated Youngest to awaken remorse among the leaders, just as He tries in many ways to instil in them an awareness of the injustice and the abuse of power of which they are guilty, so as to bring about a pact of peace before one of the parties succumbs to the superior force; but in the vast majority of cases also these attempts are rejected by human beings.

Many of the disincarnated Youngest gather where the fiercest battles rage in order to minimize by their presence the effect of the erupting Darkness and to divert those accumulations of Darkness that are inevitably drawn to the scenes of battle by the passions that are unleashed, and also to bring the thousands of spirits that were bound to the slain human bodies back to their dwellings in the spheres.
The Youngest will also try, for as long as a state of war obtains, to evoke feelings of compassion and to bring about acts of mercy among those directly or indirectly involved in the war, so as to counteract the influence of Darkness.

The love of human beings for their country is under normal circumstances an excellent and exalted sentiment, but it is ugly and degrading when, aroused by the passions of war, it turns into egoism and self-worship. For regarding this self-overestimation and complacency, human beings must never forget that those men and women who from the earliest times and in the various nations have risen high above the average human being, and who in the service of the Light have exerted a lasting cultural influence on the peoples of their countries in the religious, ethical, scientific, social and political areas, have all been the incarnated Youngest, who under the leadership of God have let themselves be born at those places where at that time there were the best prospects for introducing innovations and improvements. And as even the most advanced human spirits have not yet developed the ability to enrich their fellow human beings either spiritually or materially, nor yet succeeded in raising themselves above the purely human level in spiritual respects, humanity has no grounds whatsoever for self-overestimation or self-admiration, but reason only to thank God for the abundance of the gifts that He has given them through His emissaries.

So that no government by the few, nor by a single head of state,
should in the future be tempted through error of judgment or hasty decision to involve their own and thereby one or more other nations in ruinous and totally destructive war, all states should agree upon a common governing body, consisting of delegates from all the countries and all the factions, to act not as a peace conference meeting from time to time but as a permanent authority whose members are elected for a longer period of office, and to whose hands all the disputes and entanglements of nations will be entrusted for joint resolution; for all disputes of any kind whatsover can and should be settled by peaceful, diplomatic means. For in no respect whatsoever can humanity defend before God its presumed right to settle its disagreements by arms and by force.?
If all the nations, all the peoples of the East and of the West, would voluntarily meet in a joint endeavour to achieve a lasting peace, they would be assured of receiving all possible help from the transcendental world under the supreme leadership of God. However, it will be of no avail to establish a general world authority until the will exists in full sincerity and accord to fulfil the hope of "the eternal peace". But once such co-operation has been agreed upon and initiated it should never be breached, since the nation that deceitfully fails to honour its pledge thereby takes an unbounded responsibility upon itself; because every vow that is broken draws Darkness to those who deliberately commit deceitful acts, and the gathered Darkness will draw the Elder's recorded future-images forth into reality upon the plane of the Earth and thus for long periods of time hinder the toilsome journeying of mankind.?
These proposals for a general world authority or international court of law have in various ways been put forward by human beings in the past, but have not hitherto awakened the proper response and understanding. But with the permission of our God and Father this proposal is hereby advanced from the transcendental world - from the spiritual leaders of mankind - in the hope that those who are well placed to advocate and implement some treaty of this nature will heed these words in times to come.?
And when the time comes that all human beings in full understanding should agree to enact an inviolable pact of peace, all manufacture of all kinds of armaments and weapons of war should cease, and never more be resumed.?
Through an unbreachable treaty of peace between all the peoples and the nations they will lay a firm foundation for an effective and a fruitful joint endeavour between the children of the Light and the children of the Earth, an endeavour that will in many ways be a great help to the Youngest in their work for humanity, and benefit especially those of the Youngest who are incarnated as human beings.”

____________

We hope and trust that these excerpts speak for themselves, and has given the reader a far better understanding of the true nature of God in the highest - of ‘the loving God behind all of Life’ - than what so far can be glanced from the religious conflicts, or otherwise, that plagues the world in these troubled times.

And we look much forward to the day when more advanced Nations,
completely without insincerity or duplicity, can truly enlighten the lesser developed countries on Earth about the futility of causing the death to some of their fellow citizens or to the citizens of other countries - either as a measure of punishment for crimes committed, or in senseless and degrading conflicts and devastating wars.

We pray that all who are reading this may find the right answer in their hearts, thereby help saving the lives of countless fellow human beings – men and women, young and old – in times to come.


Tamborine man


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Sanders
post Jul 25 2007, 12:59 PM
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Welcome Tamborine Man.

I love Bob Dylan.

Personally I have no love of religion, but the "do unto others" and the "peace" parts I can surely get behind. That's HUMANITY.

Funny, when people are left to themselves, they tend to "do unto others" as they would like to have done to them. All the big wars were started by businessmen conspiring in locked rooms. This one is of course no different.
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Tamborine man
post Jul 28 2007, 12:43 PM
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QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 25 2007, 11:59 AM)
Welcome Tamborine Man.

I love Bob Dylan.

Personally I have no love of religion, but the "do unto others" and the "peace" parts I can surely get behind.  That's HUMANITY.

Funny, when people are left to themselves, they tend to "do unto others" as they would like to have done to them.  All the big wars were started by businessmen conspiring in locked rooms.  This one is of course no different.


Hi Gartner, thanks for your comment!

Just one point though. If you read my post again, you'll find that in reality it has nothing to do with religion at all, but really transcent all and sundry.
To prove my point, read the following extract from the same work and you get the idea!
Btw, I too dig Bob Dylan - and your response of course!

____________


"I speak unto you who are called the servants of the Most High or servants of the Church, to whichever nation, to whichever faith you may belong and whatever office, high or lowly, you may hold within your holy community. I speak unto you all, by whichever name you know your deity, and whether you submit to one god or to many gods. Hear me! For my words concern you all.
Would you be servants of the Most High, then must you strive to keep His commandments, strive to abide by His laws. Then must you teach all who join with you and heed your preachings that God is One, that there are not two, nor three, nor many gods. Then shall you teach that God the Almighty is the Creator and Father of the immortal spirits of human beings, but that He did not create their mortal bodies.
Yea, truly I say unto you: would you be the servants of God, then must you all serve Him in spirit and in truth; then shall you speak gentle, loving and simple words to all who in doubt, despair and remorse turn to you for help and guidance; then shall you with tireless constancy comfort and strengthen the weak, the despondent and the faltering; never shall you speak hard, condemning words to the living, and even less shall you speak ill of the dead; never, so as to assert your authority and your power, shall you threaten with eternal damnation, nor menace with the punishments and torments of Hell.
Never must you teach that the human spirit after life upon the Earth will live again in the bodies of beasts, nor that the spiritual self after many burdensome but gainful journeyings will be engulfed by the great nothingness - will sink into a state of eternal impassivity.
Neither shall you teach that self-torments and penances are pleasing unto God. And never must you perform blood sacrifice' to the honour of the Most High; no human being, no beast of the field nor bird of the air shall you sacrifice; for all such deeds are the dreadful inventions of Darkness.
Be helpful and compassionate toward all who are poor or sick or wretched; let your churches, temples and meeting houses be open unto all, that every grieving and every suffering person may at all times, on days of work or on days of rest, kneel before the altar to seek strength and comfort in fervent prayer unto their God and Father; and that all who so desire may walk in peace and tranquillity within the places of beauty that are hallowed and consecrated unto our Father.
And when on days of rest or holy celebration you are gathered with your congregation, then must you teach them to submit unto the guiding hand of our Father with the trust, hope and love of a child, then must you teach them that songs of praise and thanksgiving shall stem from the deepest depths of their hearts. Then shall you teach them that all outward and empty forms of worship are of no avail, that all sacraments are needless.

Further, I say unto you all: would you be God's servants, then shall you not unceasingly quarrel and dispute with one another over the ancient words and doctrines of faith that are received from the many writings of your forefathers. Then shall you not constantly maintain that your own church and your own faith is the only true one and the only way unto salvation. And never must you by the sword or by decree compel others to accept your faith and your opinion.
Seek rather that all shall meet in common yearning for the pure, the exalted and the divine. Yea, seek you all to meet in your common yearning for the love of a Father and the righteousness of a God.

What I have said unto you with these words I ask you all carefully to consider; seek counsel of God and of your conscience, and never act against your inner conviction! When you have then understood that my words are true, then be of help to me in guiding your brothers and sisters unto the common goal: our Father's Kingdom of Glory.


1) If people conceive of God as their highest War Lord, every man who forfeits his life in combat becomes a "blood sacrifice" in his honour, and, if clergymen consecrate soldiers before combat, they too, become participants in the human sacrifices of war.
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Tamborine man
post Jul 28 2007, 12:46 PM
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Sorry Sanders,

don't know where I got that Gartner thing from!!!
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Sanders
post Jul 28 2007, 12:50 PM
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No prob

QUOTE (Tamborine man @ Jul 29 2007, 01:43 AM)
...If you read my post again, you'll find that in reality it has nothing to do with religion at all...

Nor did mine B)
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painter
post Jul 28 2007, 12:51 PM
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QUOTE (Tamborine man @ Jul 28 2007, 08:43 AM)
<s>
If you read my post again, you'll find that in reality it has nothing to do with religion at all, but really transcent all and sundry.
To prove my point, read the following extract from the same work and you get the idea!
<s>

blahblah1.gif rolleyes.gif dontfeed.gif
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Tamborine man
post Jul 29 2007, 12:59 PM
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QUOTE (painter @ Jul 28 2007, 11:51 AM)
blahblah1.gif rolleyes.gif dontfeed.gif



Trolls! What??

Trolls originate from nordic mythology (my part of the world). They live in mounds, sort of
inside the earth. They come out at nighttime for the purpose of making a bit of mischief, and
are thus much related to socalled 'flat-earth'ers' together with certain big bang scientific - minded earthbound jokers and other earthbound sorts!

Sorry painter, but I'm from a different and opposite world. Love people with individuality, who can think for themselves and are totally free from prejudice. Love people who are openminded, kind, understanding, curious and daring.

But of course, between you and me.... I also love the trolls and their relatives, yeah, perhaps even more than everybody else, as these sad, damaged and lost souls only got a terribly hard road and journey to look forward to, and not much else for a very long time - there ahead!
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painter
post Jul 29 2007, 01:36 PM
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QUOTE (Tamborine man @ Jul 29 2007, 08:59 AM)
QUOTE (painter @ Jul 28 2007, 11:51 AM)

blahblah1.gif  rolleyes.gif  dontfeed.gif



Trolls! What??

Trolls originate from nordic mythology (my part of the world).<s>

You are a troll, I don't care what part of the world you are from. You have four posts in this forum, all in this one thread, none have any relevance to the OP.

QUOTE
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Tamborine man
post Jul 30 2007, 01:04 AM
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QUOTE (painter @ Jul 29 2007, 12:36 PM)
QUOTE (Tamborine man @ Jul 29 2007, 08:59 AM)
QUOTE (painter @ Jul 28 2007, 11:51 AM)

blahblah1.gif  rolleyes.gif  dontfeed.gif



Trolls! What??

Trolls originate from nordic mythology (my part of the world).<s>


You are a troll, I don't care what part of the world you are from. You have four posts in this forum, all in this one thread, none have any relevance to the OP.



No, painter. I'm not a troll. And this fact won't change no matter how many times you repeat this
nonsense.

If your definition of somebody who 'intentionally cause controversy', are those who tell the truth,
then yes, I must plead guilty to this charge. And I certainly hope that there exist thousands upon
thousands of people who equally will plead guilty to such a charge - especially in a forum like this
that deals with uncovering the truth.

It seems to me that you'll be easier to get along with, if one tells you fibs and lies (so as not to
cause controversy), but sorry painter, I find it impossible to meet you on this level.

Had you read my posts carefully, you would have found that they have extreme relevance to the OP.
For the question that is raised over and over again is, how to defeat the neocons and their ilk,
or how to prevent them from further expand on their diabolical and destructive schemes.

What I'm trying to show is this: In the instant you consider these people your enemies, you
would have lost the battle. They would have defeated you there and then, and for glaringly
obvious reasons. In any "physical combat", of any kind, they'll be stronger than you.

It is not a question about whether you believe in a God or not, but about what in the end is the
most powerful force: The Light or the Darkness.
And in this there can only be one answer: The Light to be infinitely stronger than Darkness.
No if's and no but's.

Or to put it bluntly: The only force that can defeat evil is goodness and true justice. nothing else.

So painter, get out your magnifying glass and see if you can find something in my posts that
do not stem from what can be termed 'goodness' or 'true justice', and let us have a little friendly chat about this, instead of the other silly talk!

PS!
And painter, don't be afraid of the Light, as it's the Darkness that's the real cause of fear and
anxiety!
In the Light, fear disappear.

To some, even to myself, this could sound like some self-satisfied preacher moralizing.
But what the heck - its the truth, so I'll let it stand, and suffer the consequences!
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Sanders
post Jul 30 2007, 06:18 AM
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QUOTE
It is not a question about whether you believe in a God or not, but about what in the end is the
most powerful force: The Light or the Darkness.
And in this there can only be one answer: The Light to be infinitely stronger than Darkness.
No if's and no but's.

Or to put it bluntly: The only force that can defeat evil is goodness and true justice. nothing else.


This SOUNDS resonable, inspiring, like an essential truth or something, but I don't think it is - I have to respectfully disagree. Our collective insistence to view the world in this way is why we continue to lose to these people IMO. --- I almost said "to these bastards". See how difficult it is? How hard for me, an athiest, to not mirror the Good 'n Evil Duality that I have been soaked in my whole life? It's nearly impossible - it permeates the movies we watch, our News and TV, and it is the basis of the religion we were weaned on, no matter the faith. And, it clouds our minds and prevents us from seeing the big problems for what they are, or ever having a hope in h@ll (pun intended) for overcoming them. I've ranted on about this on occasion, I think my first foray into this territory was a post about "the Look on Feith's Face". I started the thread so you can find it if you look for it, it is about the Neocons, and their own strong belief that what they are trying to do is Right, that they are somhow more enlightened than the rest of us and so must fulfill their calling and lead the rest of us sheep into glory. Th global ruling elite suffer from a similar kind of disease, that the earth needs managing and that only they are up to the task. But those little attempts to penetrate the rationals of those kinds of people don't really get to the crux of it like Peter J. (director of Zeitgeist) does in this interview

What I'm trying to say, in a nutshell, is that what we percieve as "humanity" (or the "do unto others" meme), is not equivalent to the "good verses evil" meme, in fact they are at odds with each other. I tried to express that earlier in this thread in a subtle way, i.e. without disagreeing with what Tamborine Man was saying (in the spirit of finding common ground - not bringing our differences into relief - that's sort of what this is all about in a way!).

I didn't split these posts off, but this is where these posts should be. In fact, if a policy of moving religious posts into the religion forum was strictly enforced, in my mind we really should move every post that rants on about how evil the "evil-doers" are or about our "good" cause against their "evil" cause in here as well. Of course that's ridiculous and I say it only to make a point. Ghandi got results - he forced the English to "walk out of India". But he didn't talk about what devils the English were, or about good and evil. He simply refused to cooperate, and held up a mirror to the people of England and forced them to look at themselves, all while leading by example, toward love and away from hate. The "love and hate" thing sounds suspiciously like the "good and evil" duality, but it's not. They do not form a duality in the same way - when you move toward love and away from hate, the "good and evil" duality concept is shattered. That's how Ghandi won.
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Tamborine man
post Jul 30 2007, 12:06 PM
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QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 30 2007, 05:18 AM)
This SOUNDS resonable, inspiring, like an essential truth or something, but I don't think it is - I have to respectfully disagree. Our collective insistence to view the world in this way is why we continue to lose to these people IMO. --- I almost said "to these bastards". See how difficult it is? How hard for me, an athiest, to not mirror the Good 'n Evil Duality that I have been soaked in my whole life? It's nearly impossible - it permeates the movies we watch, our News and TV, and it is the basis of the religion we were weaned on, no matter the faith. And, it clouds our minds and prevents us from seeing the big problems for what they are, or ever having a hope in h@ll (pun intended) for overcoming them. I've ranted on about this on occasion, I think my first foray into this territory was a post about "the Look on Feith's Face". I started the thread so you can find it if you look for it, it is about the Neocons, and their own strong belief that what they are trying to do is Right, that they are somhow more enlightened than the rest of us and so must fulfill their calling and lead the rest of us sheep into glory. Th global ruling elite suffer from a similar kind of disease, that the earth needs managing and that only they are up to the task. But those little attempts to penetrate the rationals of those kinds of people don't really get to the crux of it like Peter J. (director of Zeitgeist) does in this interview

What I'm trying to say, in a nutshell, is that what we percieve as "humanity" (or the "do unto others" meme), is not equivalent to the "good verses evil" meme, in fact they are at odds with each other.



I'm far from being a religious man, so its a bid of a shame to find these posts transfered to this
forum, but be that as it may!

Light and Darkness is of course synonymous with Love and Hate, where Love is the highest
expression of the Light and hate the 'highest' expression of Darkness. This goes without saying.
Goodness and evil in all their various manifestations are mere products of these two opposing
forces.
So basically thinks that Sanders and I are in total agreement on this point.

We are also in agreement when it comes to the neocons and the ruling elite; that these people
suffer from a disease called delusion, also goes without saying. They obviously need help in a
secure environment, rather than derision or condemnation. That would be like throwing dirty
water on a ducks back. They couldn't give a sh*t!
The damage some of these goons have done to the world, is beyond human measure. There's
only one way to go for the worst of the perpetrators; they must rebuild their damaged
personalities from scratch, by letting themselves be reborn in some of the more primitive
tribes on earth. F. ex. amongst the highlanders in Papua New Guinea!! This is actually how we
should interpret the old saying which tells us "that the first shall be the last, and the last shall be
the first", meaning of course the modest, the unassuming, the unpretentious.... and, OK, the
meek!

I must unfortunately disagree with Sanders when he states that the two memes, 'do unto others-'
and 'good versus evil' are at odds with each other. I cannot see that. I seriously think that a
good father will do his best to treat his son or daugther the same way that he himself would have
liked to be treated when he was of the same age. A father who mistreats his children because
he himself was mistreated as a child, cannot possibly be called 'good', in my humble opinion.
(Just one example out of countless others).

Besides that, I can't see any important disagreement between Sanders and myself at all, so
there we are.

That he is an ateist and I spiritually minded, matters little or nothing in the scheme of things.
This is easily sorted when we next time meet each other in the transcendental world
for a nice chat! ;o) java script:emoticon(';)')


PS!
Had a look at the interview with Peter J., but after ca.4-5 minutes the tape stopped, so sadly
didn't get the rest. The first part I heard sounded very interesting!
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Tamborine man
post Jul 30 2007, 12:13 PM
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How do I add a smiley! Can anyone help me?
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painter
post Jul 30 2007, 12:17 PM
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∞* M E R C U R I A L *∞


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QUOTE (Tamborine man @ Jul 30 2007, 08:13 AM)
How do I add a smiley! Can anyone help me?

rolleyes.gif
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Sanders
post Jul 30 2007, 01:27 PM
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QUOTE (Tamborine man @ Jul 31 2007, 01:06 AM)
I must unfortunately disagree with Sanders when he states that the two memes, 'do unto others-'
and 'good versus evil' are at odds with each other. I cannot see that...

Look at it this way - Hate is an emotion. Love is, well harder to describe. The duality of Good and Evil is a construct.

There are types of wasps that paralyze caterpillars and lay their eggs inside them. No one knows if the immobilized caterpillar is conscious or not as the baby wasps slowly eat it from the inside out, it could be either way and the wasp could care less. Seems pretty evil and cruel, but this is just nature. If I were that caterpillar I would certainly hate the wasp, just as I hate the neocon bastards. But that is just an emotion.

Due to our religious, nationalistic and societal conditioning we can easily be persuaded to hate, even in the name of good. If we never were taught about Heaven and Hell, Good and Evil, if we were never exposed to the nonstop flood of dramatic works, movies, etc. whose stories all have this good and evil duality at their base, would we percieve things as either good or evil? Would teenage Americans find it so easy to kill Iraqi civilians? I think not nearly so much. The very fact that we can be easily manipulated into hating something if it is presented as evil illustrates IMO that these are apples and oranges. I see love as separate and entirely different, and infinitely more powerful.

A little esoteric, but that's my case.
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Tamborine man
post Jul 31 2007, 04:39 AM
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QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 30 2007, 12:27 PM)
Look at it this way - Hate is an emotion. Love is, well harder to describe. The duality of Good and Evil is a construct.

There are types of wasps that paralyze caterpillars and lay their eggs inside them. No one knows if the immobilized caterpillar is conscious or not as the baby wasps slowly eat it from the inside out, it could be either way and the wasp could care less. Seems pretty evil and cruel, but this is just nature. If I were that caterpillar I would certainly hate the wasp, just as I hate the neocon bastards. But that is just an emotion.

Due to our religious, nationalistic and societal conditioning we can easily be persuaded to hate, even in the name of good. If we never were taught about Heaven and Hell, Good and Evil, if we were never exposed to the nonstop flood of dramatic works, movies, etc. whose stories all have this good and evil duality at their base, would we percieve things as either good or evil? Would teenage Americans find it so easy to kill Iraqi civilians? I think not nearly so much. The very fact that we can be easily manipulated into hating something if it is presented as evil illustrates IMO that these are apples and oranges. I see love as separate and entirely different, and infinitely more powerful.

A little esoteric, but that's my case.



Or look at it this way. Hatred is not an emotion, nor is Love, but rather are they huge magnetic
forces that can either enslave the individual or set him or her free.

Therefore I do not for one moment believe that Sanders really hates the neocons, and I think
he knows that himself - deep down. That he intensely dislikes them for what they have done and
what they are further capable of doing, is another matter altogether!
Real hatred, when it manifest itself, will inevitably lead to destruction, chaos, suffering and,
more often than not death, in smaller or larger degrees, and in one form or another.

Contrary to human beings, animals do not have consciousness and self-awareness, but are
ruled solely by their instincts.
It is the Thought and the Will which are the basis for human consciousness. The Thought as the
primary abstract female concept: intuitive, formative and creative. The Will as the primary
abstract male concept: fructifying, productive and dominant.
Or seen in this light: So long as a thought of creating or taking action is a mere thought, it only
has the possibility of coming to life. It has potentiality. But the moment the fructifying will joins in
and the thought and the will merge, potentiality becomes reality, or becomes concrete.
However, the will is nothing without thought as a constant basis for its activity - obviously.

Light and Darkness influence all life forms in various ways. The distorting, malforming,
degrading and destructive influence of Darkness we see all too often in the world today.
Vulcanic eruptions, earthquakes, lighting strikes and tornados are also visible effects of the
force of darkness.
On the other hand, we see the orderly, uplifting, selective, harmonizing and beautifying influence of the Light in many other ways.
Especially in the animal kingdom can we see a more orderly existence happening, where a
highly regulated life can be found, for example among the life of ant and bees; in the
intricate nest-building of many birds, the migrating birds, the migrations of fish between the
oceans and fresh water, etc. etc.. The examples are many.

Absolutely true that a vast proportion of human beings daily are being conditioned and
manipulated by the powers to be, in cahoots with the massmedia. But on a positive note, i
believe that more and more intelligent people around the world are waking up to this fact and
can now see the utter madness behind what is going on. I mean, just look at this forum for a
start!
Yes, it was ok for the crusaders, Hopalong Cassidy, John Wayne, two G. Bush'es and many others, to march out to murder 'the bandit baddies', for these good folks had god on their side,
or so they thought, in their deep ignorance. Pity them, for they do not know what they're
doing. They do not know they have extremely hard lessons to learn in times to come.

And yes, Love IS infinitely more powerful than anything else. Spot on my good man. ohmy.gif)

PS!
That painter bloke is not much help - is he!! ohmy.gif/ ------- java script:emoticon('[yes]')

PPS!
Remember: What IS can never die.
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Tamborine man
post Jul 31 2007, 04:49 AM
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wrong smilies. Damn, what a bloody mess! --- angry.gif
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Cary
post Jul 31 2007, 05:10 PM
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QUOTE
Hatred is not an emotion, nor is Love, but rather are they huge magnetic
forces that can either enslave the individual or set him or her free.


Actually hate and love are moods (complex assessments filled with emotions). To make either of them more than that is naive.

QUOTE
Contrary to human beings, animals do not have consciousness and self-awareness, but are ruled solely by their instincts.


The higher intelligence animals have been documented to "language" from time to time, but do not live immersed in language as humans do. Predators have been well documented to "language" with one another in a hunt. But you're correct in that animals don't have cognizance of individuality. They respond to biological triggers for self-preservation and the continuation of the species.
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lunk
post Jul 31 2007, 05:16 PM
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I had a thought one time
that everything could be
broken down to binary.

0 and 1
anything could be on or off.

Now, if one thinks of the entire
universe and asks, "Is it on or off?"
The answer would be "on."

cheers, lunk
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Sanders
post Jul 31 2007, 05:30 PM
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From good 'n evil to language in predators to the binary nature of the universe !

I guess the only question left unanswered is, are the neocons an intelligent species? tongue.gif

I think not, they read and wrote so many books and papers that their binary intelligence quotient overloaded and flipped to 0 !
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lunk
post Jul 31 2007, 08:15 PM
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chirp chirp chirp
a working analogy

Analogies are a way of describing
a complex thing in a simple comparative
way. A close analogy partially
describes; like volts and amps are
like the speed and width of a river.
However, the flow of a river is not
completely analogous with electricity
in other ways.

M.W. Cooper in his book, Behold A Pale Horse
noted that society and economics are
completely analogous with electronic circuits.
(capacitance, resistance, inductance)

Good and evil; darkness and light;
even my binary idea, these are just
simple ways of describing the way things are.

Since I have been at this forum..
I came up with this analogy:


"Like a chick still in the egg,
We are growing to the point
where we must break out of
this shell of containment that
we have all been conceived in;
a matrix of thought controlling
half-truths, rules and restrictions,
made to contain us,that we are
brought up believing to be true.

This will take effort.
Not with muscle but with minds.

We don't want to end up like
a bad egg that never hatched."

The egg grows inside the bird
the shell and the embryo within,
are part of the same thing; the egg.
An eggshell is strong from the outside
but weak from the inside.
The outside shell insulates, contains,
and protects the embryo on the inside.
The egg has now been laid and is
incubated by the bird for a while.
Now it is time to hatch, the chick
is fully developed inside the shell,
and must, through its own effort,
break a small hole through the wall
of the shell to start the process of hatching.

The shell represents the media, power that be
government, religion, banks etc.

We are the chick inside that shell.
We have never done this before but
it is time to get out of this shell.
It's time to hatch.

Thunk by lunk
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