Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

Pilots For 9/11 Truth Forum _ Pentagon _ About Passengers...? Didnt Hit Pentagon?

Posted by: voldemor Jul 2 2007, 05:46 PM

The most important question according to me .... where did the passengers of the flight American 77 go? - because there was a real Boeing 757 that took of from the airport that day. If it did not hit the Pentagone, where did they go - passengers and plane ? Where are the facts or topics about passengers and plane. Thanks.

Posted by: painter Jul 2 2007, 06:07 PM

Welcome to the forum.

This is the first question 90% of people unfamiliar with the controversy surrounding the Pentagon incident ask us. The simple fact of the matter is, we do not know, nor do we claim to. The government tells us that they were killed in the impact. They also tell us they have identified most if not all the passengers via DNA. They've also said that most of the plane vaporized leaving no debris with identification numbers that would allow us to positively identify the plane. How DNA samples could withstand such an inferno is a question that goes unanswered. Where the DNA samples came from if they didn't come from the Pentagon is another unanswered question. There are many unanswered questions -- and that is the problem.

We rely upon our government and its agencies to tell us the truth. What 9/11 reveals more clearly than any event in recent history is that government intentionally deceives the public and uses the media to reinforce the view of things they want us to have. Why do they do that? Why do we have contradictory information in the form of a flight data recorder whose data does not match the physical evidence of downed light poles and damage field within the Pentagon? Why do we have Pentagon police officers who say they saw the plane and firmly believe the plane they saw hit the Pentagon yet, it, too, does not correspond to the physical damage?

My contention is that 9/11 in all its aspects has the earmarks of an on-going black-op, false-flag, counterintelligence operation. So far as I understand these operations, they are set up in such a way that no one, even most people on the 'inside' (except for a few, yet to be identified) know what exactly is going on. High security matters are on a "need to know" basis and people are encouraged not to look beyond the frame of their specified role. This allows for "plausible deniability." For example, there is good reason to question how much of what happened was known in advance by Bush. Clearly, he was not in a control position on 9/11. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Generals Myers, Eberhart and Arnold, on the other hand, clearly were.

Without a thorough and independent investigation with judicial "teeth" which allows us to put people under oath, cross examine them, and offer immunity in exchange for testimony -- not to mention some degree of safety -- there is little chance that we will ever know the full truth of what happened to the passengers of Flight 77 -- or, indeed, anything else about 9/11.

What we do know now is that the government is releasing evidence that is contradictory. The point of this, I believe, is if they can't keep a lid on this and keep everyone believing unquestioningly the official story, to keep the population in a state of uncertainty. The result is 9/11 will 'fall down the memory hole' and, as time goes on, look more and more like just another "conspiracy theory" which can neither be proven nor disproved. This is what they did with the major political assassinations of the last century, what they've done with the anthrax scare and what they are doing with 9/11. MEANWHILE, the perpetrators of these events WALK and plan their next operation -- all to our peril.

I'm sorry if this answer is neither reassuring or satisfactory -- but if you've only lived in the perception of reality constructed for you by corporate owned media -- you are now faced with the metaphor put forward in the movie, "The Matrix." Do you want to take the blue pill and wake up tomorrow believing whatever you want to believe or do you want to take the red pill and discover just how deep the rabbit hole goes? Personally, I took the red pill long, long ago. I'm quite used to the ambiguity of uncertainty and have learned to appreciate it as a way of looking at the world. I don't claim to know the full truth -- only bits and pieces. Enough, nonetheless, to be certain without any doubt whatsoever, whoever did it and however they pulled it off, it was not 19 Arab hijackers with incredible luck. <-- THAT is the conspiracy theory.

Posted by: johndoeX Jul 2 2007, 06:22 PM

Didnt get a chance to read painters' reply... however i thank you for asking this question because now i have a link to send 90% of the people who ask....

Where did the plane and pax go? Thats a GREAT Question...!


I say we all gather together and march up the steps of the Capitol and ask.. because according to their own information they provided via the NTSB... American Airlines Flight 77 did not hit the pentagon (or the 5 light poles on Washington Blvd).

Who wants to join in asking the above question to people who should be asking the same themselves (ie. Congress, MSM.. et al).....?


(if painter did cover this in his post above, my reply is your summary)

Posted by: johndoeX Jul 2 2007, 06:27 PM

Matter of fact.. im pinning this topic.. thanks!

Posted by: Cary Jul 2 2007, 06:30 PM

What Painter said.

Rob, where's the link you talked about?? I'd love to see that. And yes, I'd love to go to the Capitol and ask that question with the presentation of the NTSB FDR for flight 77.

Posted by: painter Jul 2 2007, 06:45 PM

QUOTE (johndoeX @ Jul 2 2007, 02:22 PM)
Didnt get a chance to read painters' reply... however i thank you for asking this question because now i have a link to send 90% of the people who ask....

Where did the plane and pax go? Thats a GREAT Question...!


I say we all gather together and march up the steps of the Capitol and ask.. because according to their own information they provided via the NTSB... American Airlines Flight 77 did not hit the pentagon (or the 5 light poles on Washington Blvd).

Who wants to join in asking the above question to people who should be asking the same themselves (ie. Congress, MSM.. et al).....?
<s>

You're exactly right, Rob. We need to ask the people who DO know. But who, precisely are they?

I think there is a whole area of research in the DNA evidence question. We should request that information via an FOIA -- including the chain of custody of that evidence. We can march up the steps of any government building and demand answers but, of course, we won't get any that way for one simple reason -- the number of people who might know the answer can be counted on one hand and they're either unknown to us or shielded by security clearance status and/or plausible deniability. Ask the people who did the DNA match testing and they'll tell you they got it from the FBI. Ask the FBI and what will you get? Same non-answer we've gotten to our questions about the FDR. Anyone in any position of authority knows that this is a "national security" issue. Most in government don't know very much outside their own role and those that do use "matters of national security" and "plausible deniability" as a deflection of any pointed question.

It is a cover-up. What we need is about six million people to march on Langly demanding an end to the terror THEY are perpetrating on the American people. What does a subject population (which is what we clearly are now) DO when the national security apparatus becomes the all-seeing force that controls all, citizens and government officials alike? There's only one answer and you're not going to get it in Washington DC or from this government as it is currently constituted.

Oh how much different this world might be if they hadn't shot Kennedy. I've lamented that death, its cover-up and inevitable consequences since I was 16 years old -- and that was only just the beginning. There is a reason why we have laws against murder and treason -- and what we have now is the consequence of not taking the action that should have been taken nearly half a century ago.

Posted by: drek Aug 24 2007, 08:07 PM

I was awake and watching the BBC that morning (it was after midnight, maybe closer to 1 am, I was in Auckland NZ, so a day ahead).

I saw the initial shots of smoke and flames from the first plane strike, and the second impact (but from an angle that obscured the second plane). The newsdesk was also unsure what the second explosion was, and it took a few minutes for the information to arrive, that it had been a second impact and was definitely looking more like some kind of attack...
When the American feed story switched live to the Pentagon, I immediately thought "the plane must have missed the front of the building", and I believed that the smoke (puzzlingly there wasn't much smoke) meant that the building's interior must be severely and extensively damaged.
Imagine my surprise when later pictures showed no such thing. Also I don't recall seeing that big "gash" or whatever, that appears in later pictures and is the supposed "entry point". Then again, I can't say that the camera angles from the initial Pentagon shots should have shown this. The big question I had at the time though, was "how come they let a plane fly into the Pentagon?". Then the story went back to NY and I watched the towers collapse!!??? The whole thing kinda looked like a disaster movie.

Posted by: amazed! Aug 26 2007, 10:47 PM

Voldemor

One possible explanation of "what happened to the passengers", assuming they exist at all, is that they were placed into the Federal Witness Protection Program.

It does exist, and it does recycle and generate identities for people.

Of course there is no evidence of that, but the government manages to control the evidence very well. In any event, it would be easy to do.

Posted by: SPreston Aug 27 2007, 11:02 AM

QUOTE (amazed! @ Aug 26 2007, 09:47 PM)
Voldemor

One possible explanation of "what happened to the passengers", assuming they exist at all, is that they were placed into the Federal Witness Protection Program.

It does exist, and it does recycle and generate identities for people.

Of course there is no evidence of that, but the government manages to control the evidence very well.  In any event, it would be easy to do.

And the Federal Witness Security Program along with gag-orders are quite often used to protect 'National Security'.
Speaking of the devil, AG Alberto Gonzales resigned today.

QUOTE (US ANTI-TERRORISM LAWS)
§ 3076. Eligibility for witness security program.
http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/terrorism/terrorism3.htm

QUOTE (Witness Security Program)
TITLE 18 > PART II > CHAPTER 204 > § 3076 § 3076. Eligibility for witness security program
Any individual (and the immediate family of such individual) who furnishes information which would justify a reward by the Attorney General under this chapter or by the Secretary of State under section 36 of the State Department Basic Authorities Act of 1956 may, in the discretion of the Attorney General, participate in the Attorney General’s witness security program authorized under chapter 224 of this title.

§ 3077. Definitions
As used in this chapter, the term—
(1) “act of terrorism” means an act of domestic or international terrorism as defined in section 2331;
(2) “United States person” means—
(A) a national of the United States as defined in section 101(a)(22) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 (a)(22));
(B an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence in the United States as defined in section 101(a)(20) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 (a)(20));
© any person within the United States;
(D) any employee or contractor of the United States Government, regardless of nationality, who is the victim or intended victim of an act of terrorism by virtue of that employment;
(E) a sole proprietorship, partnership, company, or association composed principally of nationals or permanent resident aliens of the United States; and
(F) a corporation organized under the laws of the United States, any State, the District of Columbia, or any territory or possession of the United States, and a foreign subsidiary of such corporation;
(3) “United States property” means any real or personal property which is within the United States or, if outside the United States, the actual or beneficial ownership of which rests in a United States person or any Federal or State governmental entity of the United States;
(4) “United States”, when used in a geographical sense, includes Puerto Rico and all territories and possessions of the United States;
(5) “State” includes any State of the United States, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, and any other possession or territory of the United States;
(6) “government entity” includes the Government of the United States, any State or political subdivision thereof, any foreign country, and any state, provincial, municipal, or other political subdivision of a foreign country;
(7) “Attorney General” means the Attorney General of the United States or that official designated by the Attorney General to perform the Attorney General’s responsibilities under this chapter; and
(8) “act of espionage” means an activity that is a violation of—
(A) section 793, 794, or 798 of this title; or
(B section 4 of the Subversive Activities Control Act of 1950.

Posted by: Carl Bank Oct 30 2007, 05:52 PM

QUOTE (Cary @ Jul 3 2007, 12:30 AM)
Rob, where's the link you talked about?? I'd love to see that.

Cary, try to imagine to be in Rob's shoes, being asked
this question "But if AA77 didn't hit... Where did it go...?
on a daily basis by everyone who comes across the truth
for the first time....

What would you do in Rob's position?

You'd certainly direct them towards a link.

And given the fact that this mystery isn't solved
it couldn't be a link to an article where the answer
is written down, but it could be a link to a discussion
about this FAQ. Maybe in some forum?! tongue.gif

with southern accent and patience for Cary: Carl

Posted by: JGSJW Apr 8 2008, 10:12 PM

I am new to this forum and having trouble navigating the system. Many of the arguments I see on Pandoras Box seem to have merit.....however....what puzzles me is this:
If Flt 77 never hit the Pentagon ...where did it go? why is the plane and it's passengers gone. I am not criticising....I am simply trying to understand.
Thanks, JGSJW



rb edit: This post and the one below was split and merged from another topic.

Posted by: SPreston Apr 8 2008, 11:51 PM

QUOTE (JGSJW)
I am new to this forum and having trouble navigating the system. Many of the arguments I see on Pandoras Box seem to have merit.....however....what puzzles me is this:
If Flt 77 never hit the Pentagon ...where did it go? why is the plane and it's passengers gone. I am not criticising....I am simply trying to understand.
Thanks, JGSJW

Somewhere else. Flight 77 apparently never took off from Dulles. Or if it somehow did take off unofficially, it might have ended up in Cleveland. Regardless, Flight 77 never did come back into Virginia.

QUOTE (Washington Dulles Airport)
AA 09/11/2001 0077 UNKNOW LAX 08:10 00:00 0326 0000 0 00:00 0000

Apparently AA Flight 77@8:10am along with 13 other aircraft never took off from Washington Dulles and the tail numbers of all 14 aircraft were listed as UNKNOW which must be routine for aircraft which do not take off. Of course all 13 of the other aircraft were held because their departure times were after national ground stop (9:25 am), except for Flight Number 573@9:23am which was likely late out on the taxiway and held on the ground by national ground stop (9:25 am). - http://s1.zetaboards.com/LooseChangeForums/topic/172076/1/#new

The Department of Transportation RITA Bureau of Transportation Statistics - http://www.bts.gov/xml/ontimesummarystatistics/src/dstat/OntimeSummaryDepatures.xml

Posted by: rob balsamo Apr 9 2008, 12:58 AM

QUOTE (JGSJW @ Apr 8 2008, 10:12 PM) *
I am new to this forum and having trouble navigating the system. Many of the arguments I see on Pandoras Box seem to have merit.....however....what puzzles me is this:
If Flt 77 never hit the Pentagon ...where did it go? why is the plane and it's passengers gone. I am not criticising....I am simply trying to understand.
Thanks, JGSJW



rb edit: This post and the one below was split and merged from another topic.



Welcome to the forum JGSJW. I split and merged your post here. Hopefully the above posts will be able to answer your question.

Posted by: elreb Apr 9 2008, 01:07 PM

As I had pointed out in the following thread; flight 0077 N644AA can not be found months before 911 therefore it appears to have been out of official service at the time.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?showtopic=10488

On the other hand if anyone went into a protection program flight 1547 (N321AA) to Orlando would have been a good plane to be on.

Where do people get the idea that a real plane took off that day? How come the family members who provided the DNA samples did not collect their $1.8 million?

Posted by: Sanders Apr 9 2008, 04:17 PM

QUOTE (JGSJW @ Apr 12 2008, 09:12 PM) *
I am new to this forum and having trouble navigating the system. Many of the arguments I see on Pandoras Box seem to have merit.....however....what puzzles me is this:
If Flt 77 never hit the Pentagon ...where did it go? why is the plane and it's passengers gone. I am not criticising....I am simply trying to understand.
Thanks, JGSJW


You seem sincere in your quest to understand. The Pilots' site officially doesn't speculate ... but here on the forum we all have our pet theories that slip out once in a while - I'm maybe the worst offender rolleyes.gif - but hey, I'm not a real pilot, and trying to fit the pieces together into a hypothesis is something I truly enjoy. But the Pentagon is a tough nut to crack. You've got all of those clocks, which stopped 5 minutes before the official impact time (which was changed and moved forward several times) - with no rational explanation.

Was it a bomb, was there a missle of some sort that did the initial damage? Did the real flight 77 "fly-over" the Pentagon and land at nearby Reagan Int. airport? Or maybe a plane that was not the actual flight 77 did the fly-over to confuse witnesses? I really don't know - I only know that what happened was not what we were told, it was more like a magic trick, with an absurdly large percentage of both witnesses and alleged passengers strangely connected to media (USA today - in the case of witnesses only), government agencies, a neo-con think tank, defense contractors and the military. Check in the Library under "passengers", you might find some interesting reading. There is a pretty savy pathologist out there who suggests that many of the deceased were potential whistle blowers, who had the bad luck to be listed as passengers on a "hijacked" jet. (I haven't checked recently, some of the links may have gone 404.)

I have a pretty good idea who the planners were, who was involved hands-on with the 9-11 event, why they did it, even from how long back they were planning it. But I don't know HOW they did it. Get used to not knowing - NONE of us know. There's too much disinformation out there, and too many red-herrings. I suspect if we really knew we would be in awe of how simply and cleverly it was orchestrated.

2 cents

Posted by: dMole Jun 8 2008, 02:44 PM

Someone recently showed me something about Stonehenge that is 9/11, passenger/victim, Pentagon, Shanksville, and WTC related.

Sorry- it is at Fox Noise from May 30, 2008. The video is "Ancient Burial Ground?"":

http://search2.foxnews.com/search?access=p&getfields=*&sort=date%3AD%3AS%3Ad1&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&client=my_frontend&filter=0&site=video&proxystylesheet=my_frontend&q=video%20Ancient%20Burial%20Ground#

Related article:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,360121,00.html

Note the response when the propagandist "news" anchor attempts to tie in the 9/11 victims (video counter with 02:20 remaining). Dr. Michael Baden, Forensic Pathologist states that cremation of human bodies requires 2500 deg Fahrenheit for at least 30 minutes. Has anyone got a way to archive this clip and/or get a transcript?

EDIT: Also house fires only reach 1700 F and the passengers did not get vaporized by airplane fires, according to Dr. Baden in the above clip.

Posted by: JFK Jun 8 2008, 02:57 PM

QUOTE (dMole @ Jun 8 2008, 02:44 PM) *
Has anyone got a way to archive this clip and/or get a transcript?


Downloading the hi quality version now.... 27.2 Mb. wink.gif

Edit to add - I use this for snagging streaming video - http://www.orbitdownloader.com/index.htm wink.gif

Posted by: richard cranium Jun 8 2008, 03:51 PM

QUOTE (dMole @ Jun 6 2008, 04:44 PM) *
Someone recently showed me something about Stonehenge that is 9/11, passenger/victim, Pentagon, Shanksville, and WTC related.

Sorry- it is at Fox Noise from May 30, 2008. The video is "Ancient Burial Ground?"":

http://search2.foxnews.com/search?access=p&getfields=*&sort=date%3AD%3AS%3Ad1&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&client=my_frontend&filter=0&site=video&proxystylesheet=my_frontend&q=video%20Ancient%20Burial%20Ground#

Related article:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,360121,00.html

Note the response when the propagandist "news" anchor attempts to tie in the 9/11 victims (video counter with 02:20 remaining). Dr. Michael Baden, Forensic Pathologist states that cremation of human bodies requires 2500 deg Fahrenheit for at least 30 minutes. Has anyone got a way to archive this clip and/or get a transcript?

EDIT: Also house fires only reach 1700 F and the passengers did not get vaporized by airplane fires, according to Dr. Baden in the above clip.


Thank you Dr. Michael Baden. Yet another preposterous explanation by the government challenged.
It seems lately that everyday I learn something new. Thanks dMole for the info.
rc

ps. I just found my copy of National Geographic. I think I'll try and read it tonight after the Lakers beat the Celtics!

Posted by: Ricochet Jun 8 2008, 04:19 PM

I found an interesting report from USA Today

QUOTE
One, a TWA flight, refuses to land in Pittsburgh and wants to fly on toward Washington. Another, a Midwest Express flight, disappears from radar over West Virginia. And three jets over the Atlantic Ocean are sending out distress signals, the Coast Guard reports.

Three jets sending out distress signals over the Atlantic. This is the only time I have ever heard this report. Which 3 aircraft were in distress? 11,175,77?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-08-12-hijacker-daytwo_x.htm

Posted by: dMole Jun 9 2008, 04:40 AM

There are a few problems with the DNA "identification" claims, beside the obvious chain of evidence issues.

Quite simply heat (and many chemicals) de-nature proteins and nucleic acids (of which deoxyribonucleic acid is one).

"Denaturation is a major change in protein or nucleic acid structure by application of some external stress or compound for example, treatment of proteins with strong acids or bases, high concentrations of inorganic salts, organic solvents (e.g., alcohol or chloroform), or heat. If proteins in a living cell are denatured, this results in disruption of cell activity and possibly cell death. Denatured proteins can exhibit a wide range of characteristics, from loss of solubility to communal aggregation."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denaturation_(biochemistry)

According to:

http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/cgi/content/full/64/24/8839
-----
Evidence for the Involvement of Double-Strand Breaks in Heat-Induced Cell Killing
Akihisa Takahashi1, Hideki Matsumoto4, Kosuke Nagayama1, Mutsuko Kitano1, Sayako Hirose1, Hidenori Tanaka1, Eiichiro Mori1, Nobuhiro Yamakawa2, Jun-ichi Yasumoto2, Kazue Yuki3, Ken Ohnishi1 and Takeo Ohnishi1

Departments of 1 Biology, 2 Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery, and 3 Otorhinolaryngology, Nara Medical University School of Medicine, Nara, Japan; and 4 Department of Experimental Radiology and Health Physics, Division of International Social and Health Science, Faculty of Medical Science, University of Fukui, Fukui, Japan
-----
"The enhancement of radiosensitization by heat (4) and the existence of an inflection point in Arrhenius plots of cell killing after exposure to heat (5) may indicate that heat-induced denaturation and damage to proteins are critical in heat-induced cell killing. Heat-induced protein denaturation results in the disruption of centrosome-dependent mitosis (6) and multiple nuclear matrix-dependent functions [e.g., DNA replication, DNA transcription, mRNA processing, and DNA repair (7) ]. Another possible target involved in cell killing is cellular DNA because it has been reported that heat induces structural alterations and strand breaks in chromatin DNA. Many investigators have reported that cellular DNA strand breaks are detected in heat-treated cells using alkaline elution methods (8) , alkaline unwinding methods (9) , in situ nick translation methods (10) , and pulse-field gel electrophoresis methods (11) . However, these conventional physical methods are not sensitive enough to clarify the relationship between cell killing and DSBs after heat treatment. Hence, DNA strand break formation was considered to be just a component or part of the pathway of events leading to heat-induced cell killing. For the technical reasons noted above, it was almost impossible to show differences in the biological effects of heat- and radiation-induced DSBs (Double Strand Breaks)....."
------
4. Kampinga HH, Dikomey E Hyperthermic radiosensitization: mode of action and clinical relevance. Int J Radiat Biol 2001;77:399-408.[CrossRef][Medline]
5. Dewey WC Arrhenius relationships from the molecule and cell to the clinic. Int J Hyperthermia 1994;10:457-83.[Medline]
6. Nakahata K, Miyakoda M, Suzuki K, Kodama S, Watanabe M Heat shock induces centrosomal dysfunction, and causes non-apoptotic mitotic catastrophe in human tumour cells. Int J Hyperthermia 2002;18:332-43.[CrossRef][Medline]
7. Roti Roti JL, Kampinga HH, Malyapa RS, et al Nuclear matrix as a target for hyperthermic killing of cancer cells. Cell Stress Chaperones 1998;3:245-55.[CrossRef][Medline]
8. Warters RL, Henle KJ DNA degradation in Chinese hamster ovary cells after exposure to hyperthermia. Cancer Res 1982;42:4427-32.[Abstract/Free Full Text]
9. Dikomey E Effect of hyperthermia at 42°C and 45°C on repair of radiation-induced DNA strand breaks in CHO cells. Int J Radiat Biol Relat Stud Phys Chem Med 1982;41:603-14.[Medline]
10. Anai H, Maehara Y, Sugimachi K In situ nick translation method reveals DNA strand scission in HeLa cells following heat treatment. Cancer Lett 1988;40:33-8.[CrossRef][Medline]
11. Wong RS, Dynlacht JR, Cedervall B, Dewey WC Analysis by pulsed-field gel electrophoresis of DNA double-strand breaks induced by heat and/or X-irradiation in bulk and replicating DNA of CHO cells. Int J Radiat Biol 1995;68:141-52.[Medline]
---------------------

The above is admitted by the following DNA analysis lab, but they later vaguely state:

"Sometimes, the nuclear DNA present in samples is destroyed by environmental conditions (e.g. heat and moisture). Because there are many more copies of mitochondrial DNA than nuclear DNA in a cell, enough mitochondrial DNA may remain for analysis, even though the nuclear DNA has been destroyed. Mitochondrial DNA analysis was critical in the identification of human remains from the World Trade Center tragedy on September 11, 2001."

http://www.hitdna.com/faq.htm

Are we to believe that heat that effectively vaporized an aluminum, steel, and titanium Boeing 757 airframe and impact that pentrated into the middle brick/mortar "C-ring" wall will leave enough mitochondrial DNA intact to conclusively identify the number of AA77 victims claimed?

Posted by: dMole Sep 12 2008, 03:44 PM

QUOTE (JFK @ Jun 8 2008, 12:57 PM) *
Downloading the hi quality version now.... 27.2 Mb. wink.gif

Well JFK,

Surprise!- looks like Fox Noise has "sanitized" that video. Have you got that 27.2 MB copy handy (and can you mirror it somewhere for us when you get time)?

Posted by: Omega892R09 Sep 12 2008, 04:00 PM

QUOTE (dMole @ Sep 10 2008, 05:44 PM) *
Well JFK,

Surprise!- looks like Fox Noise has "sanitized" that video. Have you got that 27.2 MB copy handy (and can you mirror it somewhere for us when you get time)?

Bastards aren't they!

But these still stand as facts d:

QUOTE
Note the response when the propagandist "news" anchor attempts to tie in the 9/11 victims (video counter with 02:20 remaining). Dr. Michael Baden, Forensic Pathologist states that cremation of human bodies requires 2500 deg Fahrenheit for at least 30 minutes. Has anyone got a way to archive this clip and/or get a transcript?

EDIT: Also house fires only reach 1700 F and the passengers did not get vaporized by airplane fires, according to Dr. Baden in the above clip.

Posted by: dMole Sep 12 2008, 08:48 PM

OK- "johnnie-come-latelies"- FYI we've already talked passengers and manifests several times. See related thread, particularly the links of post #12 at:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?showtopic=13537

Posted by: JFK Sep 12 2008, 10:12 PM

QUOTE (dMole @ Sep 12 2008, 03:44 PM) *
Well JFK,

Surprise!- looks like Fox Noise has "sanitized" that video. Have you got that 27.2 MB copy handy (and can you mirror it somewhere for us when you get time)?



Yeah, I finally found it... And moved it to my outgoing directory.

Now I need to find a free host.


Posted by: JFK Sep 12 2008, 10:47 PM

Try this. wink.gif

http://www.fileshost.com/en/file/60451/Stonehenge-cremation-flv.html

Posted by: dMole Sep 12 2008, 11:23 PM

Thanks bushels JFK! I really love throwing Fox "News" at the "debunkers," since that's likely where they get all their "facts" and perception of the universe... rolleyes.gif

That is high-quality- you used Orbitdownloader for that IIRC? I'll host that Stonehenge vid too and post a link here soon.

Orbitfiles doesn't ask for a bunch of personal info, doesn't have the "wait BLAH seconds.." and gives 2GB storage, but I think 50MB is the biggest file they let you upload. It's not always "family friendly"/G-rated at times though.

http://www.orbitfiles.com/

EDIT:
OK- I've uploaded the Stonehenge video where forensic Dr. Baden says "no the passengers were not cremated" flat-out to:

http://www.orbitfiles.com/download/id3266866132.html

JFK, that Orbitfiles page does strange things if there are spaces in the filenames so get rid of those, and it's actually 6GB storage, with only 50MB files available.

Posted by: JFK Sep 12 2008, 11:48 PM

You are welcome dMole.

Yes I used the Orbit downloader for initially downloading that... There was a button on the Fox site for viewing a high quality version. wink.gif

Thanks for the link. smile.gif

Posted by: SPreston Oct 7 2008, 11:02 AM

QUOTE (voldemor)
The most important question according to me .... where did the passengers of the flight American 77 go? - because there was a real Boeing 757 that took of from the airport that day. If it did not hit the Pentagone, where did they go - passengers and plane ? Where are the facts or topics about passengers and plane. Thanks.
QUOTE (johndoeX)
I say we all gather together and march up the steps of the Capitol and ask.. because according to their own information they provided via the NTSB... American Airlines Flight 77 did not hit the pentagon (or the 5 light poles on Washington Blvd).

Who wants to join in asking the above question to people who should be asking the same themselves (ie. Congress, MSM.. et al).....?
QUOTE (amazed)
Voldemor

One possible explanation of "what happened to the passengers", assuming they exist at all, is that they were placed into the Federal Witness Protection Program.

It does exist, and it does recycle and generate identities for people.

Of course there is no evidence of that, but the government manages to control the evidence very well. In any event, it would be easy to do.

The government claims that Barbara Olson was located here:





The primary suspects controlled the crime scene and the DNA. There was lots of DNA from the targeted Pentagon personnel all over the crime scene. A lot of the alleged 'passenger' DNA was found way up past the Exit Hole. Initially the report was that the aircraft nose cone created the Exit Hole which is comical. Then the embarrassed perps changed it to a landing gear. Since the alleged 'passenger' DNA was inside the fuselage and the landing gear is outside the fuselage and under the wings or under the nose cone, then how did that DNA reach the A&E Drive in that supposedly hot jet fuel burning hell? The latest propaganda is that an explosive fireball created the Exit Hole which demands even more;
"But how did fragile DNA get way out there and survive the heat?"

Answer: It didn't. No aircraft crashed into the Pentagon.
It was all a military psyops mission and a lot of people were had.


Posted by: keroseneaddict Oct 23 2008, 06:52 PM

A summary question......do any public documents exist that show seats inside or outside of the pentagon here or elsewhere?

Can someone show the link to any dna identification of the pax of AA77?

Posted by: dMole Nov 9 2008, 01:15 AM

Well one of the GL's was kind enough to finally provide us with this archived PDF:

http://web.archive.org/web/20060907034559/http://ndms.chepinc.org/data/files/3/266.pdf

Excerpts:

"[p. 1]The fact that this was a terrorist attack targeting the nerve center of the U.S. Department of Defense made the identification and handling of the human remains significantly different than a “typical” mass disaster.

The responsibility to identify and autopsy each of the decedents fell to the Office of the Armed Forces Medical Examiner, part of the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, headquartered in Washington, DC. All of the human remains–of which there were more than 2000 separate specimens–were moved to the U.S. Air Force Port Mortuary at Dover AFB, Delaware, for
evaluation.
...
[p 6 of 10, presumably "typical" handling procedures described] Triage/Safety
If the possibility of unexploded bombs, weapons, or other dangerous materials exists, the remains must be appropriately screened to ensure the safety of those in the morgue. Once this is accomplished, the anthropologist or pathologist assigned to the triage area examines every set of remains that comes through the door of the morgue. Aircraft parts and/or personal effects that are not associated with any human remains can be pulled aside and inventoried separately. Any human remains that are in the same bag, but are not physically connected, are separated into different bags, uniquely labeled, and assumed to be different individuals until proven otherwise.

Photography
All remains are photographed “as is” at this point. All accession number are double-checked.
...
[Victims list on pages 9 & 10- names only]"
------------------
My quick notes on "chain of custody" of evidence:

1. DoD in charge of operation the entire time.
2. DoD handled the Pentagon "significantly different"ly than "typical."
3. Office of the Armed Forces Medical Examiner [DoD] was responsible for identification.
4. Specimens were moved to Dover AFB [DoD].

Posted by: keroseneaddict Nov 9 2008, 10:17 PM

QUOTE (dMole @ Nov 9 2008, 12:15 AM) *
Well one of the GL's was kind enough to finally provide us with this archived PDF:

http://web.archive.org/web/20060907034559/http://ndms.chepinc.org/data/files/3/266.pdf

Excerpts:

"[p. 1]The fact that this was a terrorist attack targeting the nerve center of the U.S. Department of Defense made the identification and handling of the human remains significantly different than a “typical” mass disaster.

The responsibility to identify and autopsy each of the decedents fell to the Office of the Armed Forces Medical Examiner, part of the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, headquartered in Washington, DC. All of the human remains–of which there were more than 2000 separate specimens–were moved to the U.S. Air Force Port Mortuary at Dover AFB, Delaware, for
evaluation.
...
[p 6 of 10, presumably "typical" handling procedures described] Triage/Safety
If the possibility of unexploded bombs, weapons, or other dangerous materials exists, the remains must be appropriately screened to ensure the safety of those in the morgue. Once this is accomplished, the anthropologist or pathologist assigned to the triage area examines every set of remains that comes through the door of the morgue. Aircraft parts and/or personal effects that are not associated with any human remains can be pulled aside and inventoried separately. Any human remains that are in the same bag, but are not physically connected, are separated into different bags, uniquely labeled, and assumed to be different individuals until proven otherwise.

Photography
All remains are photographed “as is” at this point. All accession number are double-checked.
...
[Victims list on pages 9 & 10- names only]"
------------------
My quick notes on "chain of custody" of evidence:

1. DoD in charge of operation the entire time.
2. DoD handled the Pentagon "significally different"ly than "typical."
3. Office of the Armed Forces Medical Examiner [DoD] was responsible for identification.
4. Specimens were moved to Dover AFB [DoD].


HMMMMMMMMMM, 7 years later, all the pathology evidence at Dover AFB, and no EVIDENCE (not anecdotal statement or opinions) released...right?

Have there been any public announcements of the ingormation and remains being classified under "NATSEC"?
Any NSD's?

I haven't found any, but I am sure it has happened... thumbdown.gif

Posted by: dMole Nov 9 2008, 10:52 PM

In retrospect, let's add:

5. Exact role(s) of FBI, NTSB/DOT/FAA, CIA, Secret Service, [rest of] DoD, and NSC (and its various minions) entirely unknown.

Posted by: paranoia Nov 18 2008, 04:12 AM

some related details...



unaccounted TOTAL tally:
http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=3043
"Total estimate is now 125. The original estimate for Defense Agencies was 10, which inadvertantly included one DoD employee on American Airlines Flight #77, Mr. Bryan C. Jack."


unaccounted navy personnel:
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=44898
http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=3038

unaccounted army personnel:
http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=3042

unaccounted DOD:
http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=3041


casualty update 9/15/2001:
http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=3046

"The Department of Defense announced today that Herbert W. Homer, a civilian employee of the Defense Contract Management Agency, was among the passengers aboard United Airlines Flight # 175, which crashed into the World Trade Center. He was previously listed in error as unaccounted at the Pentagon."
"Search and rescue operations continue. To date, 85 remains have been recovered from the Pentagon, 77 of which have been transported to Dover Air Force Base, Del. for identification."


casualty update 9/17/2001
http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=3048

"To date, 97 remains have been recovered and transported to Dover Air Force Base, Del. for identification. Eleven have been identified. Search and rescue operations continue."


9/18:
To date, 113 remains have been recovered and transported to Dover Air Force Base, Del. for identification. Eighteen have been identified. Search and rescue operations continue.


9/19:
The Department of Defense confirmed today that the following people were killed as a result of the attack on the Pentagon. This brings to 30 the number of victims positively identified.
As a result of the attack, 125 people were killed or remain unaccounted for, not including the 64 passengers on the plane. To date, 115 remains have been recovered and transported to Dover Air Force Base, Del. for identification. Search and rescue operations continue.


9/20:
The Department of Defense confirmed today the following people were killed as a result of the attack on the Pentagon. This brings to 40 the number of unaccounted for victims positively identified, not including the individual who recently died of wounds suffered in the attack:
As a result of the attack, 125 people were killed or remain unaccounted for, not including the 64 passengers on the plane. To date, 116 remains have been recovered and transported to Dover Air Force Base, Del. for identification. Search and rescue operations continue.


9/21:
The Department of Defense confirmed today the following people were killed as a result of the attack on the Pentagon. This brings to 40 the number of unaccounted for victims positively identified, not including the individual who recently died of wounds suffered in the attack:
As a result of the attack, 125 people were killed or remain unaccounted for, not including the 64 passengers on the plane. To date, 116 remains have been recovered and transported to Dover Air Force Base, Del. for identification. Search and rescue operations continue.


9/22:
The Department of Defense confirmed today that the following people were killed as a result of the attack on the Pentagon. This brings to 60 the number of unaccounted victims positively identified, not including the individual who later succumbed to wounds suffered in the attack.
As a result of the attack, 125 people were killed or remain unaccounted, not including the 64 passengers on the plane. To date, 117 remains have been recovered and transported to Dover Air Force Base, Del. for identification. Search and recovery operations continue.
The Department of Defense confirmed today the following people were killed as a result of the attack on the Pentagon. This brings to 68 the number of unaccounted for victims positively identified, not including the individual who later succombed to wounds suffered in the attack:


9/23:
The Department of Defense confirmed today the following people were killed as a result of the attack on the Pentagon. This brings to 68 the number of unaccounted for victims positively identified, not including the individual who later succombed to wounds suffered in the attack:
As a result of the attack, 125 people were killed or remain unaccounted for, not including the 64 passengers on the plane. To date, 118 remains have been recovered and transported to Dover Air Force Base, Del. for identification. Search and recovery operations continue.


9/24:
The Department of Defense confirmed today that the following people were killed as a result of the attack on the Pentagon. This brings to 74 the number of unaccounted victims positively identified, not including the individual who later succumbed to wounds suffered in the attack.
As a result of the attack, 125 people were killed or remain unaccounted for, not including the 64 passengers on the plane. To date 118 remains have been recovered and transported to Dover Air Force Base, Del. for identification. Search and recovery operations continue.


9/25:
The Department of Defense confirmed today that the following people were killed as a result of the attack on the Pentagon. This brings to 78 the number of unaccounted victims positively identified, not including the individual who later succumbed to wounds suffered in the attack.
As a result of the attack, 125 people were killed or remain unaccounted, not including the 64 passengers on the plane. To date, 118 remains have been recovered and transported to Dover Air Force Base, Del. for identification. Search and recovery operations continue.


9/27:
The Department of Defense confirmed today that the following people were killed as a result of the attack on the Pentagon. This brings to 80 the number of unaccounted victims positively identified, not including the individual who later succumbed to wounds suffered in the attack.
As a result of the attack, 125 people were killed or remain unaccounted, not including the 64 passengers on the plane. To date, 118 remains have been recovered and transported to Dover Air Force Base, Del. for identification. Search and recovery operations continue.


9/30:
The Department of Defense confirmed today that the following people were killed as a result of the attack on the Pentagon. This brings to 84 the number of unaccounted victims positively identified, not including the individual who later succumbed to wounds suffered in the attack.
As a result of the attack, 125 people were killed or remain unaccounted, not including the 64 passengers on the plane. To date, 118 remains have been recovered and transported to Dover Air Force Base, Del. for identification. Search and recovery operations continue.


january 2007, 184 bodies identified: Experts ID 184 Pentagon Fatalities
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:CHdJ0cd9GPkJ:911research.wtc7.net/cache/planes/evidence/afip_pentvictimid.htm+Dover+Air+Force+Base,+Del.+remains+mortuary&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=34&gl=us


the exact process of body identifications of the pentagon victims:
http://radiology.rsnajnls.org/cgi/content/full/223/1/7

exact process broken down further, New Foundland crash:
http://radiology.rsnajnls.org/cgi/content/abstract/168/1/229?ijkey=da324dba6bee04e63fb967ec8f1dd564884603a2&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha
http://radiology.rsnajnls.org/cgi/reprint/168/1/229?ijkey=da324dba6bee04e63fb967ec8f1dd564884603a2
http://radiology.rsnajnls.org/cgi/reprint/168/1/229?ijkey=da324dba6bee04e63fb967ec8f1dd564884603a2

more on that crash:
http://www.qmfound.com/gander.html



random:

jonestown bodies (taken to DOVER for i.d.):
http://www.qmfound.com/jonestown_guyana_identification.htm

nasa crash bodies sent to Dover Air Force Base:
http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/sts107_remains_030213.html

Posted by: paranoia Nov 18 2008, 04:29 AM

clearly this is a topic we've all presented to the sheeple before...
so instead of a new post, im just going to post a response from sometime awhile back:



Andrew M. Baker, M.D., a good boyscout (was the m.e. for the pent victims)

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:LshgmqJiynAJ:andrewbakermd.com/Curriculum%2520Vitae.pdf+%22Andrew+M.+Baker%22+m.d&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

CURRICULUM VITAE
Professional Employment:
2001-2002
Chief Deputy Medical Examiner
Office of the Armed Forces Medical
Examiner, Armed Forces Institute of
Pathology, Washington, DC

2000-2001
Staff Pathologist
Department of Pathology, National
Naval Medical Center, Bethesda, MD

1999-2001
Deputy Medical Examiner
Office of the Armed Forces Medical
Examiner, Armed Forces Institute of
Pathology, Washington, DC

1998-1999
Associate Medical Examiner
Office of the Armed Forces Medical
Examiner, Armed Forces Institute of
Pathology, Washington, DC


Teaching:
Course Director, Armed Forces Institute of Pathology Basic Forensic Pathology course,
Bethesda, Maryland, November 12-16, 2001


Honors and Awards:
Department of Defense, Defense Meritorious Service Medal, 2002
Department of Defense, Joint Service Commendation Medal, 2001
Department of Defense, Joint Meritorious Unit Award, Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, Washington, DC, 2000
Distinguished Graduate, Commissioned Officer Training, Maxwell AFB, Alabama, United States Air Force, 1998


Invited Presentations:
Aviation Pathology: 101, Minnesota Society of Coroners and Medical Examiners, October 2001


there's no possible motive for the good doc to be biased, huh?

i dont think anyone is arguing about what the proper method of DNA identification is. the problem is comes from the fact that there is mounting evidence that the plane could not and did not hit the building. so because thats the case, then any alleged DNA of passengers at the pentagon is just that, alleged.


QUOTE (randomskepticdenier)
So are you saying that the DNA of any of the passengers, was never at the pentagon site? Who then would have to be involved for that to be the case?


im not saying it, though it is indeed what is easily observable. you silly skeptic - are clearly aware of the "mounting evidence" i was referring to (your posts in the relevant threads establishes your awareness of this evidence). its that evidence which makes it clear that the plane flew from east of the potomac (chaconas), north of the citgo (+10 witnesses), and over the building (roberts). so if you want to address the alleged passengers' DNA's in a vacuum, where all other facts are absent, then go ahead. it wont change the truth/reality thats established by real witnesses and real investigative footwork.

regarding your question of who would be involved, i dont know and i dont have to say. your question is about as relevant to the doubts about DNA authenticity, as the price of tea in china. but i'll go ahead and entertain it, at least partially. who would be involved? well the dear doctor, military/DOD trained and awarded Dr.Baker, is at least one person who (at least) after the fact, would be (witting or unwittingly) involved, because thanks to his "insights", pseudoskeptics such as yourself can coontinually deny the evidence that clearly indicates the impossibility of aircraft passengers from "flight 77" being recovered from the pentagon.

there is no record of, nor any testimony which directly establishes who found what at the aftermath of the explosions at the pentagon. thru compartmentalization, the various entities and footsoldiers who facilitated the clean-up at the pentagon, would be kept from knowing what was what. what i mean is that the workers there, cleaned up x number of bodies and remains. i doubt it was one person, so an overall count of how many such bodies/parts were found would not have been kept by anyone involved in the clean-up. so no one from the clean-up can say with any certainty that enough bodies/parts were collected to account for a total sum of deceased plane passengers and pentagon employees.

there is no proof that any of the clean-up personnel were present at the labs where the DNA testing took place. so there wasnt anyone from the pentagon clean-up present at the lab, keeping a tally of overall bodies/parts received for testing. absent of any official oversight or continuity in the chain of evidence, there is no way to tell where the remains (examined at the military lab) came from. so as a lab technician you might be presented with something to test for DNA, but as a lab worker you would NOT have any confirmable/verifiable proof that what's being tested, actually came from the pentagon rubble.

each group would be tasked with specific jobs/responsibilities, but none of these would overlap in a way that would allow for awareness that there was malfeasance or subversion. i challenge you to find any person on record, who has said that yes i was at the cleanup, and yes i rode along or followed the trucks/choppers on their way to the DNA facility, and yes i watched the specific remains being delivered, and yes i watched each of those remains being tested at the lab. obviously it even sounds ridiculous for it wouldnt make any logistical/operational sense to have the same persons track the evidence from start to finish. but such compartmentalization is exactly what provides ample opportunity for unsubstantiated, untracked bodies/remains to become included as alleged "flight 77" passengers.

neverminding any of the above, and sticking to facts PREREQUISITE to reaching the DNA question, there is substantial evidence that the alleged flight 77 NEVER hit the pentagon. in fact, NO PLANE hit the pentagon. deny the preponderence of evidence and testimony all you want, it only proves that psuedo-skeptical logic is something for physicists to examine, since such logic exists in a black hole and not in the 3 dimensional plane of existence known as REALITY to the those of us with UNBIASED and genuinely critical minds. so see a shrink or find a physicist, maybe they can recommend some remedy for your head ailment. we can only continue to present evidence of contradictions/lies, but we cant make you think logically. as they say, you can lead horse to water, but you can make him drink. so thanks to the hard-earned labors of truth-pursuers (CIT/P4T especially) there is a wealth of evidence in front of you which should help do away with the Official Conspiracy Theory of 19 arab jihadists.

Posted by: Ricochet Nov 18 2008, 03:22 PM

9/11 exposed sums it up rather well.
http://911exposed.org/DNA.htm

Posted by: dMole Dec 10 2008, 06:48 PM

QUOTE (dMole @ Sep 12 2008, 05:48 PM) *
OK- "johnnie-come-latelies"- FYI we've already talked passengers and manifests several times. See related thread, particularly the links of post #12 at:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?showtopic=13537

Now let's add:

The Missing Passengers
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?showtopic=6389

Posted by: dMole Dec 12 2008, 06:36 AM

A bit about Dover AFB:

http://www.dover.af.mil/units/

"Dover AFB is home to the 436th Airlift Wing, known as the "Eagle Wing" and the 512th Airlift Wing, our Air Force Reserve associate--referred to as the "Liberty Wing." Together, these two wings make up the "Dover Team."

The 436th Airlift Wing is the active duty military host unit at Dover Air Force Base, which provides command and staff supervision, along with support functions, for assigned airlift providing worldwide movement of outsized cargo and personnel on scheduled, special assignment, exercise and contingency airlift missions.

The "Eagle Wing" is a subordinate of Eighteenth Air Force headquartered with the Air Mobility Command at Scott Air Force Base, Ill. The Eagle Wing consists of operations, maintenance, mission support and medical groups and 14 staff divisions. The wing has more than 4,000 active-duty military and civilian employees.

Home to the C-5 Galaxy and C-17 Globemaster III aircraft, the Eagle Wing flies hundreds of missions throughout the world and provides 25 percent of the Nation's strategic airlift capability, projecting global reach to over 100 countries around the globe.

Dover AFB operates the largest and busiest air freight terminal in the Department of Defense and is also home to the Air Mobility Command Museum, which welcomes thousands of visitors each year. The Charles C. Carson Center for Mortuary Affairs is the DOD's largest joint-service mortuary facility and the only one located in the continental United States. "


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dover_Air_Force_Base

http://www.dover.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=4037

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=28223

"WASHINGTON, Oct. 29, 2003 – Military officials this week opened a new $30 million mortuary at Dover Air Force Base, Del. The Charles C. Carson Center for Mortuary Affairs, which replaces a 48-year-old facility, is the Defense Department's only stateside mortuary.

"The new building is state-of-the art," said Meg Falk, director of the Defense Department's Office of Family Policy.

The 70,000-square-foot facility was built in little more than a year, said Falk, who likened the project to the Pentagon's Phoenix Project, which rebuilt the portion of the Pentagon destroyed on Sept. 11, 2001, in a year. "It was built with that same kind of spirit and dedication," she said.

Since 1955, the remains of more than 50,000 service members have arrived at Dover for identification and funeral preparations. The mortuary staff prepares the remains of fallen U.S. soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines, as well as government officials and their families stationed abroad in Europe and Southwest Asia.
..."

Posted by: dMole Dec 12 2008, 09:35 AM

Here's a "dirty little" historical secret about US military bases during the Vietnam "police action" (I know a couple of firsthand witnesses to such unsavory "business"):

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?s=&showtopic=15720&view=findpost&p=10760367

See also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_action

Posted by: dMole Dec 26 2008, 07:54 AM

OP Title: "About Passengers...? Didnt Hit Pentagon?, Then where are they?!?"

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html
--------------
Also Known as: Smoke Screen, Wild Goose Chase.
Description of Red Herring

A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:

1. Topic A is under discussion.
[Ed: American Airlines Boeing B757-223, # N644AA, B# 24602, Rolls RB211-535E4B-37?, Mode 3A 6553 off 08:50:38 EDT DEFINITELY and CONCLUSIVELY struck the Pentagon around 11 Sep 2001 before 10:00.] == Topic A
2. Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
3. Topic A is abandoned.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because merely changing the topic of discussion hardly counts as an argument against a claim.


[Isn't "abandoning" Topic A anytime soon: d wink.gif]

EDIT: OP by 1-post forum member "voldemor":

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?showuser=1330

Posted by: dMole Jan 23 2009, 10:47 AM

See also the page in the Library section:

Passengers
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?showtopic=246

"Flights 11 and 175 were each Boeing 767s with a seating capacity of 255. The flight manifests listed 86 passengers and crew on flight 11 and 56 on flight 175. Flights 77 (56 passengers) and 93 (33 passengers) were both Boeing model 757s with a seating capacity of 239."

Strangely, many of those passenger sources trace to CNN, which appears to have pulled all of its flight passenger info for all 4 pages linked at:

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/main.html
--------------------------
I didn't check many of these links, but this page is worth looking at:

http://911review.org/Wiki/PassengerList.shtml
--------------------------
This page came up in a search, but the CNN links are broken there too. The images wouldn't link, but look here for passenger info:

http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/passengers.html
-----------------------------------
EDIT: Boston Globe/NY Times has these webpages:

AA11
http://www.boston.com/news/packages/sept11/anniversary/victims/flight11.htm

AA77
http://www.boston.com/news/packages/sept11/anniversary/victims/flight77.htm

UA93
http://www.boston.com/news/packages/sept11/anniversary/victims/flight93.htm

UA175
http://www.boston.com/news/packages/sept11/anniversary/victims/flight175.htm

Posted by: dMole Jan 23 2009, 11:14 AM

Since the sources on "passenger lists" seem to be very scarce now, let's fair use mirror this information here for posterity.

http://www.geocities.com/mknemesis/passengers.html
------------------------------
Crew & Passenger Lists, Attack Aircraft 11 Sept 2001
None Include Any Arab or Hijacker Names - Joe Vialls
---
AMERICAN AIRLINES FLIGHT 11

American Airlines Flight 11, from Boston, Massachusetts, to Los Angeles, California, crashed into the north tower of the World Trade Center with 86 people on board, none of whom were alleged hijackers or Arabs

CREW

John Ogonowski, 52, of Dracut, Massachusetts, was the pilot of Flight 11. A lifelong aviation buff, he joined the Air Force after graduating from college and flew planes at the close of the Vietnam War. He joined American Airlines in 1979.
First Officer Thomas McGuinness, 42, of Portsmouth, New Hampshire, was Flight 11's co-pilot.
Barbara Arestegui, 38, was a flight attendant from Marstons Mills, Massachusetts.
Jeffrey Collman was a flight attendant.
Sara Low, 28, was a flight attendant from Batesville, Arkansas.
Karen Martin was a flight attendant.
Kathleen Nicosia was a flight attendant.
Betty Ong, 45, was a flight attendant from Andover, Massachusetts.
Jean Roger, 24, was a flight attendant from Longmeadow, Massachusetts.
Dianne Snyder, 42, was a flight attendant from Westport, Massachusetts.
Madeline Sweeney, 35, was a flight attendant from Acton, Massachusetts.


PASSENGERS

Anna Williams Allison, 48, of Stoneham, Massachusetts, was the founder of A2 Software Solutions. ,
David Angell, 54, of Pasadena, California, was the creator and executive producer of the hit NBC sitcom "Frasier."
Lynn Angell, 45, of Pasadena, California, was the wife of "Frasier" creator and executive producer David Angell.
Seima Aoyama
Myra Aronson, 52, of Charlestown, Massachusetts, was a press and analyst relations manager for Compuware Corp.
Christine Barbuto, 32, of Brookline, Massachusetts, was a buyer for TJX Cos.
Berry Berenson, 53, of Los Angeles, California, was an actress and photographer.
Carolyn Beug, 48, of Los Angeles, California.
Carol Bouchard, 43, of Warwick, Rhode Island, was a Kent County Hospital emergency room secretary.
Robin Caplin was from Natick, Massachusetts.
Neilie Casey, 32, of Wellesley, Massachusetts, was a merchandise planning manager for TJX Cos.,
Jeffrey Coombs, 42, of Abington, Massachusetts, was a security analyst for Compaq Computer. H
Tara Creamer, 30, of Worcester, Massachusetts, was a merchandise planning manager for TJX Cos.
Thelma Cuccinello, 71, was a Wilmot, New Hampshire, resident with 10 grandchildren.
Patrick Currivan
Andrew Curry Green was from Chelmsford, Massachusetts.
Brian Dale, 43, of Warren, New Jersey, was an accountant and attorney with Blue Capital Management.
David DiMeglio was from Wakefield, Massachusetts.
Donald Ditullio, 49, was from Peabody, Massachusetts.
Albert Dominguez, 66, was a baggage handler for Qantas Airways in Sydney, Australia.
Alex Filipov, 70, was an electrical engineer from Concord, Massachusetts.
Carol Flyzik, 40, was from Plaistow, New Hampshire.
Paul Friedman, 45, from Belmont, Massachusetts, was a consultant for Emergence Consulting.
Karleton D.B. Fyfe, 31, of Brookline, Massachusetts, was a senior investment analyst for John Hancock.
Peter Gay, 54, of Tewksbury, Massachusetts, was a Raytheon Co. vice president of operations for electronic systems based in Andover, Massachusetts. He had worked for Raytheon for more than 28 years.
Linda George, 27, of Westboro, Massachusetts, was a buyer for TJX Cos.
Edmund Glazer, 41, of Los Angeles, California, was the chief financial officer of MRV Communications.
Lisa Fenn Gordenstein, 41, of Needham, Massachusetts, was an assistant vice president, for TJX Cos.
Paige Farley Hackel, 46, was a spiritual adviser from Newton, Massachusetts.
Peter Hashem, 40, was an engineer from Tewksbury, Massachusetts.
Robert Hayes, 37, from Amesbury, Massachusetts was a sales engineer with Netstal.
Ted Hennessy, 35, was a consultant for Emergence Consulting in Belmont, Massachusetts.
John Hofer
Cora Holland, 52, of Sudbury, Massachusetts, was with Sudbury Food Pantry.
Nicholas Humber, 60, of Newton, Massachusetts, was the owner of Brae Burn Management.
John Jenkins
Charles Jones, 48, was a computer programmer from Bedford, Massachusetts.
Robin Kaplan, 33, of Westboro, Massachusetts, was a senior store equipment specialist for TJX Cos.
Barbara Keating, 72, was from Palm Springs, California.
David Kovalcin, 42, of Hudson, New Hampshire, was a Raytheon Co. senior mechanical engineer.
Judy Larocque, 50, of Framingham, Massachusetts, was the founder and CEO of Market Perspectives.
Jude Larson, 31, was from Los Angeles, California.
Natalie Larson was from Los Angeles, California.
N. Janis Lasden, 46, of General Electric was from Peabody, Massachusetts.
Daniel John Lee, 34, was from Los Angeles, California.
Daniel C. Lewin, 31, was the co-founder and chief technology officer at Akamai Technologies Inc.
Susan MacKay, 44, of Westford, Massachusetts, was an employee of TJX Cos.
Chris Mello, 25, was a financial analyst with Alta Communications from Boston.
Jeff Mladenik, 43, of Hinsdale, Illinois, was the interim president at E-Logic.
Antonio Montoya
Carlos Montoya
Laura Lee Morabito, 34, was the Qantas Airways area sales manager in Boston. She lived in Framingham, Mass.
Mildred Naiman was from Andover, Massachusetts.
Laurie Neira
Renee Newell, 37, of Cranston, Rhode Island, was a customer service agent with American Airlines.
Jacqueline Norton, 60, was a retiree from Lubec, Maine. She was traveling with her husband, Robert Norton.
Robert Norton, 82, was a retiree from Lubec, Maine. He was traveling with his wife, Jacqueline Norton.
Jane Orth, 49, of Haverhill, Massachusetts, was retired from Lucent Technology.
Thomas Pecorelli, 31, of Los Angeles, California, was a cameraman for Fox Sports and E! Entertainment Television.
Sonia Morales Puopolo, 58, of Dover, Massachusetts, was a retired ballet dancer.
David Retik was from Needham, Massachusetts. He was a general partner of Alta Communications.
Philip Rosenzweig of Acton, Massachusetts, was an executive with Sun Microsystems.
Richard Ross, 58, of Newton, Massachusetts, headed his own management consulting company, the Ross Group.
Jessica Sachs, 22, of Billerica, Massachusetts was an accountant with PricewaterhouseCoopers.
Rahma Salie, 28, was from Boston.
Heather Smith, 30, of Beacon Capital Partners was from Boston.
Douglas Stone, 54, was from Dover, New Hampshire.
Xavier Suarez
Michael Theodoridis, 32, was a consultant from Boston.
James Trentini, 65, was a retired teacher and assistant principal from Everett, Massachusetts.
Mary Trentini, 67, was a retired secretary from Everett, Massachusetts.
Mary Wahlstrom, 75, of Kaysville, Utah, was traveling with her daughter, Carolyn Beug.
Kenneth Waldie, 46, of Methuen, Massachusetts, was a Raytheon Co. senior quality control engineer.
John Wenckus, 46, was a tax consultant from Torrance, California.
Candace Lee Williams, 20, was a student from Danbury, Connecticut.
Christopher Zarba, 47, of Hopkinton, Massachusetts, was a software engineer at Concord Communications.

---
AMERICAN AIRLINES FLIGHT 77

American Airlines Flight 77, from Washington to Los Angeles, crashed into the Pentagon with 56 people aboard, none of whom were alleged hijackers or Arabs.

CREW

Charles Burlingame of Herndon, Virginia, was the plane's captain. He had more than 20 years of experience flying with American Airlines and was a former U.S. Navy pilot.
David Charlebois, who lived in Washington's Dupont Circle neighborhood, was the first officer on the flight.
Michele Heidenberger of Chevy Chase, Maryland, was a flight attendant for 30 years. S
Flight attendant Jennifer Lewis, 38, of Culpeper, Virginia, was the wife of flight attendant Kenneth Lewis.
Flight attendant Kenneth Lewis, 49, of Culpeper, Virginia, was the husband of flight attendant Jennifer Lewis.
Renee May, 39, of Baltimore, Maryland, was a flight attendant.


PASSENGERS

Paul Ambrose, 32, of Washington, was a physician who worked with the U.S. Department of Health.
Yeneneh Betru, 35, was from Burbank, California.
M.J. Booth
Bernard Brown, 11, was a student at Leckie Elementary School in Washington.
Suzanne Calley, 42, of San Martin, California, was an employee of Cisco Systems Inc.
William Caswell
Sarah Clark, 65, of Columbia, Maryland, was a sixth-grade teacher at Backus Middle School in Washington.
Asia Cottom, 11, was a student at Backus Middle School in Washington.
James Debeuneure, 58, of Maryland, was a fifth-grade teacher at Ketcham Elementary School in Washington.
Rodney Dickens, 11, was a student at Leckie Elementary School in Washington.
Eddie Dillard
Charles Droz
Barbara Edwards, 58, of Las Vegas, Nevada, was a teacher at Palo Verde High School in Las Vegas.
Charles S. Falkenberg, 45, of University Park, Maryland, was the director of research at ECOlogic Corp.
Zoe Falkenberg, 8, of University Park, Maryland, was the daughter of Charles Falkenberg and Leslie Whittingham.
Dana Falkenberg, 3, of University Park, Maryland, was the daughter of Charles Falkenberg and Leslie Whittingham.
Joe Ferguson was the director of the National Geographic Society's geography education outreach program in Washington.
Wilson "Bud" Flagg of Millwood, Virginia, was a retired Navy admiral and retired American Airlines pilot.
Dee Flagg
Richard Gabriel
Ian Gray, 55, of Washington was the president of a health-care consulting firm.
Stanley Hall, 68, was from Rancho Palos Verdes, California.
Bryan Jack, 48, of Alexandria, Virginia, was a senior executive at the Defense Department.
Steven D. "Jake" Jacoby, 43, of Alexandria, Virginia, was the chief operating officer of Metrocall Inc.
Ann Judge, 49, of Virginia was the travel office manager for the National Geographic Society.
Yvonne Kennedy
Norma Khan, 45, from Reston, Virginia was a nonprofit organization manager.
Karen A. Kincaid, 40, was a lawyer with the Washington firm of Wiley Rein & Fielding.
Norma Langsteuerle
Dong Lee
Dora Menchaca, 45, of Santa Monica, California, worked for a biotech firm.
Christopher Newton, 38, of Anaheim, California, was president and chief executive officer of Work-Life Benefits.
Barbara Olson, 45, was a conservative commentator who often appeared on CNN.
Ruben Ornedo, 39, of Los Angeles, California, was a Boeing propulsion engineer.
Robert Penniger, 63, of Poway, California, was an electrical engineer with BAE Systems.
Lisa Raines, 42, was senior vice president for government relations at the Washington office of Genzyme.
Todd Reuben, 40, of Potomac, Maryland, was a tax and business lawyer.
John Sammartino
Diane Simmons
George Simmons
Mari-Rae Sopper of Santa Barbara, California, was a women's gymnastics coach at the University of California.
Bob Speisman, 47, was from Irvington, New York.
Hilda Taylor was a sixth-grade teacher at Leckie Elementary School in Washington.
Leonard Taylor was from Reston, Virginia.
Leslie A. Whittington, 45, was from University Park, Maryland.
John Yamnicky, 71, was from Waldorf, Maryland.
Vicki Yancey
Shuyin Yang
Yuguag Zheng

---
UNITED AIRLINES FLIGHT 175

United Airlines Flight 175, from Boston, Massachusetts, to Los Angeles, California, was the second hijacked plane to strike the World Trade Center South Tower) with 56 people on board. No alleged hikackers or anyone of Arab name or obvious descent.

CREW

Capt. Victor Saracini, 51, of Lower Makefield Township, Pennsylvania, was a Navy veteran.
Michael Horrocks was first officer.
Robert J. Fangman was a flight attendant.
Amy N. Jarret, 28, of North Smithfield, Rhode Island, was a flight attendant.
Amy R. King was a flight attendant.
Kathryn L. Laborie was a flight attendant.
Alfred G. Marchand of Alamogordo, New Mexico, was a flight attendant.
Michael C. Tarrou was a flight attendant.
Alicia N. Titus was a flight atteandant.

PASSENGERS

Alona Avraham, 30, was from Ashdot, Israel.
Garnet "Ace" Bailey, 53, of Lynnfield, Massachusetts, was director of pro scouting for the Los Angeles Kings hockey team. Mark Bavis, 31, of West Newton, Massachusetts.
Graham Berkeley, 37, of Xerox Corp. was from Wellesley, Massachusetts.
Touri Bolourchi, 69, was from Beverly Hills, California.
Klaus Bothe, 31, of Germany was on a business trip with BCT Technology AG's chief executive officer.
Daniel Brandhorst, of Los Angeles, California, was a lawyer for PriceWaterhouse.
David Brandhorst, 3, was from Los Angeles.
John Cahill was from Wellesley, Massachusetts.
Christoffer Carstanjen, 33, of Turner Falls, Massachusetts, was staff assistant in the office of information technology at the University of Massachusetts-Amherst.
John Corcoran "Jay" Corcoran, 44, of Norwell, Massachusetts, was a merchant marine.
Dorothy Dearaujo, 82, was from Long Beach, California.
Gloria Debarrera
Lisa Frost, 22, of Rancho Santa Margarita, California, graduated from Boston University this year.
Ronald Gamboa, 33, of Los Angeles, California, was a Gap store manager.
Lynn Goodchild, 25, was from Attleboro, Massachusetts.
The Rev. Francis E. Grogan, 76, of Easton, Massachusetts, was a priest at Holy Cross Church in Easton.
Carl Hammond, 37, was from Boston, Massachusetts.
Peter Hanson, 32, of Groton, Massachusetts, was a software salesman.
Susan Hanson, 35, of Groton, Massachusetts, was a student.
Christine Hanson, 3, was from Groton, Massachusetts.
Gerald Hardacre
Eric Hartono
James E. Hayden, 47, of Westford, Massachusetts, was the chief financial officer of Netegrity Inc.
Herbert Homer,48, of Milford, Massachusetts, worked for Raytheon Co.
Robert Jalbert, 61, of Swampscott, Massachusetts, was a salesman.
Ralph Kershaw, 52, of Manchester-by-the-Sea, Massachusetts, was a marine surveyor.
Heinrich Kimmig, 43, chairman and chief executive officer of BCT Technology Ag, of Germany.
Brian Kinney, 29, of Lowell, Massachusetts, was an auditor for PriceWaterhouse Cooper.
Robert LeBlanc, 70, of Lee, New Hampshire, was a professor emeritus of geography at the University of New Hampshire.
Maclovio "Joe" Lopez Jr., 41, was from Norwalk, California.
Marianne MacFarlane
Louis Neil Mariani, 59, was from Derry, New Hampshire.
Juliana Valentine McCourt, 4, was from New London, Connecticut.
Ruth McCourt, 24, was from Westford, Massachusetts.
Wolfgang Menzel, 60, of Germany joined BCT Technology AG in 2000 as director of human resources. He is survived by his wife and one child. Menzel had planned to retire in six months.
Shawn Nassaney, 25, was from Pawtucket, Rhode Island.
Patrick Quigley, 40, of Wellesley, Massachusetts, was a partner at PriceWaterhouse Cooper.
Frederick Rimmele was a physician from Marblehead, Massachusetts.
James M. Roux, 42, was from Portland, Maine.
Jesus Sanchez, 45, was an off-duty flight attendant from Hudson, Massachusetts.
Kathleen Shearer was from Dover, New Hampshire.
Robert Shearer was from Dover, New Hampshire.
Jane Simpkin, 35, was from Wayland, Massachusetts.
Brian D. Sweeney, 38, was from Barnstable, Massachusetts.
Timothy Ward, 38, of San Diego, California, worked at the Carlsbad, California-based Rubio's Restaurants Inc.
William Weems of Marblehead, Massachusetts, was a commercial producer.

---
UNITED AIRLINES FLIGHT 93

United Airlines Flight 93, from Newark, New Jersey, to San Francisco, California, crashed in rural southwest Pennsylvania, with 45 people on board, none of whom were alleged hijackers or Arabs.

CREW

Jason Dahl, 43, from Denver, Colorado, was the plane's captain.
Leroy Homer, 36, from Marlton, New Jersey, was the first officer on board.
Lorraine Bay was a flight attendant.
Sandra Bradshaw, 38, of Greensboro, North Carolina, was a flight attendant.
Wanda Green was a flight attendant.
CeeCee Lyles of Fort Myers, Florida, was a flight attendant.
Deborah Welsh was a flight attendant.

PASSENGERS

Christian Adams
Todd Beamer, 32, was from Cranbury, New Jersey.
Alan Beaven, 48, of Oakland, California, was an environmental lawyer.
Mark Bingham, 31, of San Francisco owned a public relations firm, the Bingham Group.
Deora Bodley, 20, of Santa Clara, California, was a university student.
Marion Britton
Thomas E. Burnett Jr., 38, of San Ramon, California.
William Cashman
Georgine Corrigan
Joseph Deluca
Patrick Driscoll
Edward Felt, 41, was from Matawan, New Jersey.
Colleen Fraser
Andrew Garcia
Jeremy Glick, 31, from West Milford, New Jersey.
Lauren Grandcolas of San Rafael, California, was a sales worker at Good Housekeeping magazine.
Donald F. Green, 52, was from Greenwich, Connecticut.
Linda Gronlund
Richard Guadagno, 38, of Eureka, California, was the manager of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service's Humboldt Bay National Wildlife Refuge.
Toshiya Kuge
Waleska Martinez
Nicole Miller
Mark Rothenberg
Christine Snyder, 32, was from Kailua, Hawaii. She was an arborist for the Outdoor Circle.
John Talignani
Honor Wainio

Posted by: 9/11 Justice Now Feb 21 2009, 02:20 PM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Apr 10 2008, 07:17 AM) *
You seem sincere in your quest to understand. The Pilots' site officially doesn't speculate ... but here on the forum we all have our pet theories that slip out once in a while - I'm maybe the worst offender rolleyes.gif - but hey, I'm not a real pilot, and trying to fit the pieces together into a hypothesis is something I truly enjoy. But the Pentagon is a tough nut to crack. You've got all of those clocks, which stopped 5 minutes before the official impact time (which was changed and moved forward several times) - with no rational explanation.

Was it a bomb, was there a missle of some sort that did the initial damage? Did the real flight 77 "fly-over" the Pentagon and land at nearby Reagan Int. airport? Or maybe a plane that was not the actual flight 77 did the fly-over to confuse witnesses? I really don't know - I only know that what happened was not what we were told, it was more like a magic trick, with an absurdly large percentage of both witnesses and alleged passengers strangely connected to media (USA today - in the case of witnesses only), government agencies, a neo-con think tank, defense contractors and the military. Check in the Library under "passengers", you might find some interesting reading. There is a pretty savy pathologist out there who suggests that many of the deceased were potential whistle blowers, who had the bad luck to be listed as passengers on a "hijacked" jet. (I haven't checked recently, some of the links may have gone 404.)

I have a pretty good idea who the planners were, who was involved hands-on with the 9-11 event, why they did it, even from how long back they were planning it. But I don't know HOW they did it. Get used to not knowing - NONE of us know. There's too much disinformation out there, and too many red-herrings. I suspect if we really knew we would be in awe of how simply and cleverly it was orchestrated.

2 cents


You notice that how stone henge is 3000 years old and 3000 is the number of victims killed on 9/11/2001
Could this just be a strange coincidence, or could it mean something more?

Posted by: Tacan Apr 26 2009, 12:58 AM

Let's see, if the studied evidence concludes that AA flt 77 did not hit the Pentagon, then the a/c and the pax have somehow been made invisible; the flight a fantasy given form via an error-filled NTSB animation that renders it as an useless, big, fat lie. Much along the lines of the final explanation of the missile shoot down of TWA 800 whose memory now gathers so much more dust with each passing day. So, the AA77 animation may well serve as a dopey cover for a cruise or high speed missile launch into the Pentagon.

Now, for me, this gives rise to a new speculation about UAL 93 which allegedly crashed in PA. Apparently, this a/c also did a disappearing act that fateful morning. The evidence gathered so far seems to indicate a 757 did NOT crash in PA. So, again who in hell knows what happened to a/c and people inside? Again, the gestapo government lies. I wonder that if "UAL 93" had not crashed and continued toward its target; (ostensibly, the WH or Capitol), then could we assume that had the fantasy been allowed to fruition without the interference of those misunderstanding heros onboard thwarting the "arab pilots" intentions, then can we assume a similar fate awaited their DC target? Like...like...like... another missile hugging the shoreline next to Reagan airport heading North for a clear shot at those targets? Geez, maybe a submerged submarine was ready to launch a smart missile; but only if the cover flight, UAL 93, arrived in DC. In any case, the possible second missile launch must have had to been cancelled in a hurry, eh? On the other hand, if UAL 93 didn't make that wreckage-less, jet fuel-less hole in PA, what did---a preprogrammed underground blast? Beats the hell out of me, Lieutenant.

Tacan

Posted by: Aldo Marquis CIT Apr 27 2009, 12:55 PM

QUOTE (Tacan @ Apr 26 2009, 05:58 AM) *
So, the AA77 animation may well serve as a dopey cover for a cruise or high speed missile launch into the Pentagon.


There was no missile:

There Was No Missile At the Pentagon,
But the Plane Did Not Hit
http://z3.invisionfree.com/CIT/index.php?showtopic=531

You may want to take a walk around our forums there and watch these:

http://thepentacon.com/eyeofthestorm.htm
http://thepentacon.com/northsideflyover.htm

Posted by: dMole Sep 5 2009, 11:14 PM

Just WOW! One of the self-styled "debunkers" finally (3 Sep 2009) admitted being wrong about "incorrectly assumed that it was of a passenger in a airline seat" re:"passengers still strapped to seats" in the Pentagon.

Linking this one here for posterity (the next time it might be needed):
http://s1.zetaboards.com/LooseChangeForums/single/?p=318890&t=1959677

DYEW's response to "hamba"
http://s1.zetaboards.com/LooseChangeForums/single/?p=318939&t=1959677

Posted by: JoJo Sep 6 2009, 03:25 PM

Hello again - it's been a long time since I've checked this site - thank you 9/11 pilot truthers for putting up this site in the first place. I highly recommend to the few airline pilots I know and since I don't know if they check it, at the least the information is available. Most of them just don't 'want to go there'.

Having received DVDs and information from Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth, I logged on to their site recently and went to ANOTHER great site - Scholars for 9/11 Truth. My curiosity about Flight 77 has lead me down many a rabbit hole as to WHAT HAPPENENED TO THAT PLANE AND ITS PASSENGERS, because OBVIOUSLY, it DID NOT hit the Pentagon. No apologies, a beast that size doesn't fit into a 16-18' hole.

So here's a link on Scholars that I found VERY DISTURBING. Now, prepare yourself who what you are about to see. I believe these photographs are the remains of the personnel in the Pentagon, NOT any AA77 pax. None of these victims are in an airline seat but I'm only posting this to show you the HUMAN TRAGEDY of 9/11. These are pictures we NEVER see on the MSM.

Once you view them, it just hits you that MASS MURDER had been committed on that fateful day. If this doesn't outrage you, nothing will.

On the link, go to Flight 77 and link on 'Remains Photographs':

http://stj911.com/evidence/pentagon.html

Posted by: amazed! Sep 10 2009, 10:03 PM

Welcome JoJo

The government is quite skilled at public dissemination of photographs. It's there proof it really happened, and they look good in their personnel files. laughing1.gif

Posted by: WetBlanket Sep 21 2011, 04:18 AM

QUOTE (amazed! @ Sep 9 2009, 01:03 AM) *
Welcome JoJo

The government is quite skilled at public dissemination of photographs. It's there proof it really happened, and they look good in their personnel files. laughing1.gif



Can any of those people listed above be found in the Social Security death index as shuffling off this mortal coil September 11, 2001?

Posted by: WetBlanket Sep 21 2011, 04:53 AM

Not sure why it included the quote when i hit "reply" but it won't let me edit it.

Anyways. Checking SSDI for the famous Todd Beamer shows the only one that name died June 10, 97 but lets try Charlie F, he was 45 in 2001 with two young kids who also perished with him.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Viewing 1-6 of 6
FALKENBERG, CHARLES 19 Nov 1882 Feb 1977 94 02903 (Providence, Providence, RI) 02907 (Providence, Providence, RI) Rhode Island 037-01-2584
FALKENBERG, CHARLES 25 Oct 1907 Sep 1976 68 11557 (Hewlett, Nassau, NY) (none specified) New York 086-10-8244
FALKENBERG, CHARLES B 16 Jan 1918 18 Nov 2007 (V) 89 21136 (Reisterstown, Baltimore, MD) 21136 (Reisterstown, Baltimore, MD) Maryland 216-09-9880
FALKENBERG, CHARLES 04 Apr 1893 Jul 1972 79 60610 (Chicago, Cook, IL) (none specified) Illinois 325-34-4078
FALKENBERG, CHARLES J 30 Mar 1907 11 Nov 1999 (V) 92 60643 (Chicago, Cook, IL) (none specified) Illinois 348-36-1213
FALKENBERG, CHARLES N 25 Dec 1950 24 Jul 2006 (P) 55 (72) (none specified) Wisconsin 395-54-6340

Viewing 1-6 of 6
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Expand that to anybody with the same last name and specify Sept 11th and there actually is a listing for the kids, would they even have Social Security #'s? But still no Charlie nor his wife Leslie Whittington.-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Viewing 1-2 of 2

FALKENBERG, DANA C 21 Jul 1998 11 Sep 2001 (P) 3 (FO) (none specified) Maryland 214-53-1139
FALKENBERG, ZOE E 08 Nov 1992 11 Sep 2001 (P) 8 (FO) (none specified) Maryland 216-37-5037

Viewing 1-2 of 2
___________________________________________
Let's try some others on Sept 11th 01...

no matches for Jim or any other any Debeuneure
no matches for Michele or any other any Heidenberger
35 people that last name in the SSDI and none even close in description.


There is a Touran Bolourchi though, issued by Tennessee?
BOLOURCHI, TOURAN H 10 Jun 1931 11 Sep 2001 (V) 70 90049 (Los Angeles, Los Angeles, CA) (none specified) Tennessee 413-74-9571

Viewing 1-1 of 1






Posted by: amazed! Sep 21 2011, 08:26 AM

Hi WetBlanket

I have not studied the SSDI, but I understand how it works by reading various posts here.

That so many of the "passengers" are not on that list is just more fuel for the fire that the Official Conspiracy Theory is a damn lie. Especially, it seems to me, that these people have achieved Public Hero status for their public deaths. All the more reason for them to be on that list.

Posted by: Uneeque Sep 30 2012, 02:55 PM

Typically I would tell OCTAs I don't need to explain where 77 went because the burden of proof is on them to show it hit the Pentagon. After being called a coward repeatedly I would point to what they consider to be the best evidence for the OCT.

One aspect I would challenge them on is the comparison of the planes being used and don't know if this was a stupid question or not but it never made sense the 767s were unable to travel as far as the 757 after impact considering the differences in the structures. The towers were not concrete walls yet stopped the planes in under 200 feet while the concrete structures in the Pentagon could not stop the smaller 757 until 300 feet.

Anyways, while we completely understand burden of proof, it seems insufficient to be effective in challenging the OCT. My only goal with seeking an explanation was this: if you could provide a feasible scenario for what happened to 77 it would be effective on some level in opening at least some people's minds.

There are some hopelessly sewn to the OCT and these are the people who say there is nothing comparable between 9E and Operation Northwoods. For the OCTAs who were honest enough to admit there is a close resemblance, they tried to claim the ON documents were PLANTED in the Pentagon by truthers.

Posted by: onesliceshort Sep 30 2012, 06:06 PM

QUOTE
One aspect I would challenge them on is the comparison of the planes being used and don't know if this was a stupid question or not but it never made sense the 767s were unable to travel as far as the 757 after impact considering the differences in the structures. The towers were not concrete walls yet stopped the planes in under 200 feet while the concrete structures in the Pentagon could not stop the smaller 757 until 300 feet.


GLs hide behind questions they know are impossible to answer.

I think that comparison is a valid point. What's even more ridiculous is the official claim that the nosecone made it through those 300ft in recognizable form.

OCT advocates have the advantage of pointing out that all 4 events don't have precedent to compare them to (that is, the crash physics of commercial aircraft against structures - Shankesville witnesses contradict any crash taking place there but even the "ground scars" could only be seen as "realistic" by the diehards)

We do know that at least two of the aircraft were allegedly performing ridiculous feats that were way beyond not only the capability of the aircraft but the controllability of the aircraft and the alleged "pilots".

OCT advocates can bullshit all they want about crash physics when discussing the Pentagon but what they can't explain (and neither could the ASCE Report on the alleged damage) is the visual damage to the facade in regard to the wings and stabilizers. This coupled with no recognizable debris on the lawn bar the ("luckily" for the OCT) lettered (and only lettered) alleged uncharred, uncrushed aircraft skin that supposedly made it on to the lawn. Yet the bigass stabilizer complete with large AA lettering vanished?

And what swung it for me was that no witnesses place the aircraft on the directional damage path through the lightpoles, generator nor the 300ft path through to the "punch out hole".

2cents

Posted by: Uneeque Sep 30 2012, 07:02 PM

QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Sep 30 2012, 06:06 PM) *
GLs hide behind questions they know are impossible to answer.

I think that comparison is a valid point. What's even more ridiculous is the official claim that the nosecone made it through those 300ft in recognizable form.

OCT advocates have the advantage of pointing out that all 4 events don't have precedent to compare them to (that is, the crash physics of commercial aircraft against structures - Shankesville witnesses contradict any crash taking place there but even the "ground scars" could only be seen as "realistic" by the diehards)

We do know that at least two of the aircraft were allegedly performing ridiculous feats that were way beyond not only the capability of the aircraft but the controllability of the aircraft and the alleged "pilots".

OCT advocates can bullshit all they want about crash physics when discussing the Pentagon but what they can't explain (and neither could the ASCE Report on the alleged damage) is the visual damage to the facade in regard to the wings and stabilizers. This coupled with no recognizable debris on the lawn bar the ("luckily" for the OCT) lettered (and only lettered) alleged uncharred, uncrushed aircraft skin that supposedly made it on to the lawn. Yet the bigass stabilizer complete with large AA lettering vanished?

And what swung it for me was that no witnesses place the aircraft on the directional damage path through the lightpoles, generator nor the 300ft path through to the "punch out hole".

2cents



When everything first went down and I heard about the Pentagon it made sense considering the size of the target. Until I saw where it entered. I've driven by the Pentagon countless times and remember the dense population at ground level and thought:

That dude was one hell of a pilot!!

Until I learned he was unable to rent a Cessna a few weeks prior. My only beef with the truther fight is we should have collectively fought by focusing on the most vulnerable parts, which I see as the Pentagon and WTC7. We don't need to prove everything that happened was not what we were told to show the attack itself is not what we were sold.

As you highlighted, the Pentagon was never explained by the evidence of the wreckage and the punch out hole is probably the second most crucial physical piece of evidence on the ground because if it was caused by a structure, like an engine, landing gear, or a stale bag of peanuts, there should have been debris everywhere in the drive way but it was pretty much spotless. However, the hole is consistent with an explosion from a missile.

The lack of debris on the lawn is (IMHO) the single best piece of physical evidence. There has to be a 757 somewhere getting ready to retire so it would be awesome if someone could bank roll an experiment of it crashing into a structure half the distance of the three rings. There would be no need to construct all three rings because 1 1/2 is enough to stop the plane.

Hard not to rehash all the stuff because it just seems so darn silly that people could actually look at the evidence and accept the OCT. Mind blowing.


Posted by: amazed! Oct 1 2012, 10:46 AM

Uneeque

It is impossible to reason with people in denial, and those who defend the OCT are in denial, or perhaps being paid to defend the story.

It is an irrational act to place great faith in the testimony of known liars, yet they do that all the time and claim to be acting rationally and in accordance with scientific principles. Hogwash!

Keep up the good work by asking questions.

Posted by: Uneeque Oct 1 2012, 07:43 PM

QUOTE (amazed! @ Oct 1 2012, 10:46 AM) *
Uneeque

It is impossible to reason with people in denial, and those who defend the OCT are in denial, or perhaps being paid to defend the story.

It is an irrational act to place great faith in the testimony of known liars, yet they do that all the time and claim to be acting rationally and in accordance with scientific principles. Hogwash!

Keep up the good work by asking questions.


It seems there is a psychological component impeding the ability to attempt objective examinations of the information and this is most noticeable in Nationalists. The farther away you move from that ideological group the density becomes lighter. This is all guesswork from an idiot but the closest analogy I can surmise is that of a married couple. Nationalists view the government as their life partner in similar fashion and when one is unfaithful, there is usually an unconscious move towards ignoring the evidence. It is denial, but not in awareness.

I think it scares the hell out of people to think their own government would plan terrorist attacks against them. I just wish we had solid evidence our top military leaders had actually written up plans for a false terrorist attack against us in the past 60 years or so. Maybe if we had that written evidence it would help show Americans our government is not exactly our friend. Or maybe it wouldn't matter at all. Maybe too many Americans are still too entrenched in supporting our government that if they were given that evidence they would just tell us to take a hike way up North and bury it in the woods?

Posted by: amazed! Jan 12 2013, 03:37 PM

QUOTE (Ricochet @ Jun 8 2008, 04:19 PM) *
I found an interesting report from USA Today
Three jets sending out distress signals over the Atlantic. This is the only time I have ever heard this report. Which 3 aircraft were in distress? 11,175,77?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-08-12-hijacker-daytwo_x.htm



All those distress signals might have been staged, probably were staged.

Considering the presence of Ptech software being on the computers of most federal agencies, at least the important ones, and the fact that numerous federal training exercises had been going on for days, most likely the radar was utterly spoofed, hacked, and whatever else, making the distress signals an easy way to confuse the innocent humans sitting at the control screens.

Posted by: amazed! Jan 12 2013, 03:41 PM

QUOTE (Uneeque @ Oct 1 2012, 07:43 PM) *
It seems there is a psychological component impeding the ability to attempt objective examinations of the information and this is most noticeable in Nationalists. The farther away you move from that ideological group the density becomes lighter. This is all guesswork from an idiot but the closest analogy I can surmise is that of a married couple. Nationalists view the government as their life partner in similar fashion and when one is unfaithful, there is usually an unconscious move towards ignoring the evidence. It is denial, but not in awareness.

I think it scares the hell out of people to think their own government would plan terrorist attacks against them. I just wish we had solid evidence our top military leaders had actually written up plans for a false terrorist attack against us in the past 60 years or so. Maybe if we had that written evidence it would help show Americans our government is not exactly our friend. Or maybe it wouldn't matter at all. Maybe too many Americans are still too entrenched in supporting our government that if they were given that evidence they would just tell us to take a hike way up North and bury it in the woods?



You are right all the way, except that the written records regarding Northwoods was released some years back. Whether on purpose or by accident I don't know, but those records did make it into the public view, for those looking. Just like the Pentagon Papers.

Reynolds v. U.S. also made it into the public view, by accident. It is well documented that the government is mendacious. Men have known that since they first created governments.

Posted by: excontroller Mar 1 2014, 04:17 PM

QUOTE (painter @ Jul 2 2007, 05:07 PM) *
Welcome to the forum.

This is the first question 90% of people unfamiliar with the controversy surrounding the Pentagon incident ask us. The simple fact of the matter is, we do not know, nor do we claim to. The government tells us that they were killed in the impact. They also tell us they have identified most if not all the passengers via DNA. They've also said that most of the plane vaporized leaving no debris with identification numbers that would allow us to positively identify the plane. How DNA samples could withstand such an inferno is a question that goes unanswered. Where the DNA samples came from if they didn't come from the Pentagon is another unanswered question. There are many unanswered questions -- and that is the problem.

We rely upon our government and its agencies to tell us the truth. What 9/11 reveals more clearly than any event in recent history is that government intentionally deceives the public and uses the media to reinforce the view of things they want us to have. Why do they do that? Why do we have contradictory information in the form of a flight data recorder whose data does not match the physical evidence of downed light poles and damage field within the Pentagon? Why do we have Pentagon police officers who say they saw the plane and firmly believe the plane they saw hit the Pentagon yet, it, too, does not correspond to the physical damage?

My contention is that 9/11 in all its aspects has the earmarks of an on-going black-op, false-flag, counterintelligence operation. So far as I understand these operations, they are set up in such a way that no one, even most people on the 'inside' (except for a few, yet to be identified) know what exactly is going on. High security matters are on a "need to know" basis and people are encouraged not to look beyond the frame of their specified role. This allows for "plausible deniability." For example, there is good reason to question how much of what happened was known in advance by Bush. Clearly, he was not in a control position on 9/11. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Generals Myers, Eberhart and Arnold, on the other hand, clearly were.

Without a thorough and independent investigation with judicial "teeth" which allows us to put people under oath, cross examine them, and offer immunity in exchange for testimony -- not to mention some degree of safety -- there is little chance that we will ever know the full truth of what happened to the passengers of Flight 77 -- or, indeed, anything else about 9/11.

What we do know now is that the government is releasing evidence that is contradictory. The point of this, I believe, is if they can't keep a lid on this and keep everyone believing unquestioningly the official story, to keep the population in a state of uncertainty. The result is 9/11 will 'fall down the memory hole' and, as time goes on, look more and more like just another "conspiracy theory" which can neither be proven nor disproved. This is what they did with the major political assassinations of the last century, what they've done with the anthrax scare and what they are doing with 9/11. MEANWHILE, the perpetrators of these events WALK and plan their next operation -- all to our peril.

I'm sorry if this answer is neither reassuring or satisfactory -- but if you've only lived in the perception of reality constructed for you by corporate owned media -- you are now faced with the metaphor put forward in the movie, "The Matrix." Do you want to take the blue pill and wake up tomorrow believing whatever you want to believe or do you want to take the red pill and discover just how deep the rabbit hole goes? Personally, I took the red pill long, long ago. I'm quite used to the ambiguity of uncertainty and have learned to appreciate it as a way of looking at the world. I don't claim to know the full truth -- only bits and pieces. Enough, nonetheless, to be certain without any doubt whatsoever, whoever did it and however they pulled it off, it was not 19 Arab hijackers with incredible luck. <-- THAT is the conspiracy theory.


WOW! Painter, I will drink to THAT! I, too, have become comfortable with knowing things are NOT as they are described by our government. As I have said, the media still says Oswald killed Kennedy, and everyone knows that is open to debate.

Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)