M2 Aircraft Tbi In Rades, Military aircraft found in RADES data yet To Be Identified Options

[dMz]

I found a couple of "stray" aircraft in the USAF RADES data while looking at the vicinity near the C-130 above. I'm not sure what airplane(s) this describes, to I'll post it for review:
----data snippet
Site Trk Time (Zulu) Time (EDT) MsgType Mode C Mode 3 M2 Lat Lon Dec. Lat Dec. Lon
PLA 4 14:02:20.370 10:02:20.370 Reinf 7800 1527 0 40 05 39.765 N 078 55 17.292 W 40.09438 78.92147
PLA 4 14:02:32.225 10:02:32.225 Bcn 6100 1527 0 40 04 04.034 N 078 55 02.030 W 40.06779 78.91723
---
PLA 4 14:01:44.740 10:01:44.740 Sch 40 10 55.556 N 078 57 43.698 W 40.18210 78.96214
PLA 4 14:01:44.755 10:01:44.755 Sch 40 09 12.575 N 078 57 57.570 W 40.15349 78.96599
PLA 4 14:01:56.595 10:01:56.595 Sch 40 08 02.112 N 078 57 00.325 W 40.13392 78.95009
PLA 4 14:02:08.540 10:02:08.540 Sch 40 06 46.468 N 078 56 11.649 W 40.11291 78.93657
----end data

One of the aircraft was Mode 3 "squawk 1527" reporting Mode C altitude of 6100-7800 feet for 2 radar returns at PLA.

The other aircraft was unidentified with no altitude data at PLA, and the C-130 was "squawking 2427" a little north-east of the "mystery" aircraft at this time, I believe.

NOTE: the "40" in the data denotes a 40 degrees north latitude- it didn't paste very well from the spreadsheet.

[dMz]

In reviewing the "big" RADES data file, I have found many military Mode 2 and Mode 4 RADES returns that will need some scrutiny.

The biggest "Most Wanted" is still the RADES Mode 3/A and/or Mode 2 code(s) for the E4B "white plane" witnessed in the DC area.

I have already started another thread for fighter interceptor codes in the RADES data:
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....showtopic=13159

The RS3 software filters can be tricky at first- I advise reading the documentation and helpfiles.

OK- the most recent request was for military [Mode 2] codes near the Pentagon at about 13:37:45 Zulu (GMT) time (09:37:45 EDT).

Likely suspects:

Site, Zulu Time, Mode 3, Mode 2, Lat (N), Lon (W)
GIB 13:37:42.215 0000 1602 37d 10' 47.610" N 077d 03' 11.268" W
GIB 13:37:54.070 0000 1602 37 09 20.510 N 077 02 36.254 W

OCA 13:37:23.855 0000 1602 37 12 56.889 N 077 04 57.909 W
OCA 13:37:47.740 0000 1602 37 10 10.811 N 077 04 10.327 W
OCA 13:37:59.550 0000 1602 37 08 46.418 N 077 03 40.069 W

PLA 13:37:25.100 [0]101 [0]100 38 16 04.281 N 076 40 00.075 W

PLA 13:37:24.925 [0]160 [0]231 38 13 36.470 N 076 21 07.271 W

GIB 13:37:42.020 165 762 37 54 44.331 N 076 09 21.476 W [also returned at OCA]
GIB 13:37:53.950 165 762 37 54 25.693 N 076 08 10.459 W

OCA 13:37:35.560 224 1627 36 56 18.759 N 076 28 25.673 W
OCA 13:37:47.630 224 1627 36 56 12.448 N 076 28 08.490 W
OCA 13:37:59.580 224 1627 36 56 08.178 N 076 27 50.552 W

GIB 13:37:30.605 514 100 37 49 06.106 N 077 09 12.633 W [also returned at OCA and PLA]
GIB 13:37:42.475 514 100 37 49 26.484 N 077 10 27.308 W
GIB 13:37:54.590 514 100 37 49 45.496 N 077 12 08.304 W

OCA 13:37:11.590 1200 721 36 57 40.768 N 076 40 34.219 W
OCA 13:37:23.505 1200 721 36 57 46.188 N 076 41 01.458 W
OCA 13:37:47.420 1200 721 36 57 37.440 N 076 42 11.507 W
OCA 13:37:59.365 1200 721 36 57 36.428 N 076 42 40.629 W

GIB 13:37:54.605 3201 2277 37 46 21.184 N 077 15 49.558 W

PLA 13:37:01.625 3354 1024 37 15 19.147 N 075 50 48.011 W

PLA 13:37:24.605 4663 100 38 19 29.601 N 075 51 28.416 W
PLA 13:37:36.525 4663 100 38 18 54.157 N 075 50 34.530 W
PLA 13:37:48.340 4663 100 38 18 13.167 N 075 49 53.879 W

OCA 13:37:23.825 5341 1601 37 12 37.651 N 077 05 40.319 W [also returned at PLA]
OCA 13:37:35.805 5341 1601 37 11 17.547 N 077 05 20.419 W
OCA 13:37:47.815 5341 1601 37 09 46.449 N 077 04 54.016 W
OCA 13:37:59.685 5341 1601 37 08 19.604 N 077 04 33.510 W

OCA 13:37:13.265 5374 1607 38 05 39.500 N 076 32 27.693 W [also returned at PLA]

NOTE: I only added the leading [0] to two of the Mode 3/A and Mode 2 codes above- if you find a 3-digit code, assume that it needs a leading zero added.

Please post "To Be Identified" inquiries and "Identified" updates here (or links to the other applicable threads and takeoff/landing locations if possible).

Thanks,
d

[JFK]

Thanks for that calculator. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif)

According to the RADES data Hanni was doing about 322.261 MPH half way through his "spiral".

http://williams.best.vwh.net/gccalc.htm
http://www.convert-me.com
and windows calculator.

(IMG:http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/6995/77speedgt0.jpg)

= 9453.405264926654 ft. (9453) in 23.785 seconds (.33 minutes ) in the above example.

5280 ft. in 1 mile.

((9453 * 3) / 5280) * 60 = 322.261 MPH.

I know, I rounded.

This post has been edited by JFK: Jun 3 2008, 08:27 PM

[dMz]

Thanks for that calculator. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif)

Hi JFK,

You'll likely find a better offline one installed on your computer that gives altitude/"slant" correction, bearing to target, and other good stuff courtesy of USAF at:

"\RADES\RS3\UTILS\3dRadarRngCalc.exe"

In RADES, we will usually be working with ground speed (GS) estimates/approximations from lat/lon coordinates, not True AirSpeed (TAS). I think Rob has covered this at least once here, but I can't remember where. Indicated AirSpeed (IAS) and [Calculated, Calibrated, or Computed depending who you ask] AirSpeed (CAS) will show up in FDR data, not RADES. Tues. 9/11/2001 wasn't very windy on the Eastern US, so this is really a non-issue IMHO.

Also, you'll find that many of us like to use "knots" or nautical miles here, since that's what the aircraft specs will usually be in. That's kind of a "complicated" unit, since there are about a half-dozen "knots" in use, and they're all pretty numerically close to each other. There are some Randiites that have nit-picked Rob's work on this point before- I don't think they're worth much of our time personally.

I choose not to have the precision/accuracy/significant figure "split decimal place" battles with the "debunkers" and a few others. That little "~" symbol and the word "approx." are your friends, but it looks like you've had that battle before. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

You'll find that my calculator pastes lots of decimal places that I don't usually bother to delete in the interests of time efficiency when posting here. I honestly have only ran across 2 semi-pro "debunkers" that could even likely have a "proper" discussion of the above with me, and they're both pretty "slippery" and evasive IMHO. I won't name any names here right now though. Just quote this post or bring them here for a proper "smack down." (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

If you give me a timestamp or range (I prefer the EDT, but Zulu works too), I can tell you what my spreadsheet calculated for AA77's speed estimate- that probably belongs under the new thread I just started at:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....showtopic=13211

Don't be surprised if you find some "high strangeness" or "stealth" in the RADES data for the "southern crashes." Have you looked at USAF's exported .XLS spreadsheet yet? [That's where I started my RADES data "screening"]

I'll see if I can do some RS3 screen captures and post the annotated ones here for your and others' research pretty soon.

[JFK]

(IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

Nice calculator.... Although the install path was incorrect here. ( the shortcut did not point to the utils directory )

Actually at this point you are "talking over my head", but I did find the .xls files.... I will study them later. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

If I was a pilot I'd probably be using knots also.... But I am not and can relate to MPH better in my own mind. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I flew and landed a Cessna once in 1989 when I took a "sightseeing tour" and the pilot basically got bored and coerced me into flying... I only wanted to take arial photos. LOL
He said I was a "natural". (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/laughing1.gif)

Anyway I am off topic here... Thanks for the tip. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif)

[dMz]

Oh before I forget,

"BCR" made a big to-do about "mixed data sets," so I went back and sorted all my RADES spreadsheets by radar site (OCA, PLA, GIB, etc) then by time before graphing last fall/winter. MS Excel does this pretty well if you have less than 256 columns "wide" and less than 65,000 "rows."

I believe that the freeware Open Office is marginally better than Excel but has some similar data file size limits IIRC. This problem came up repeatedly in the alleged AA77& UA93 [EDIT: FDR] data that I looked at.

http://www.openoffice.org/

A KICK-ASS [IMHO] freeware calculator with cut/paste [unlike MS version], unit conversions and many other features:

http://www.calculator.org/

This calculator does knots, mph, and a bunch of other conversions for you.

[JFK]

MS Access 2000 does away with the Excel limits and adds lots of nifty features to boot. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Bookmarked that calculator. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[dMz]

But JFK, MS Access no "graphy" very well, no? (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/dunno.gif)

I usually prefer to analyze the graphs first to find the "interesting" parts, but I've already done that for all 4 flights. Take a look at this file server (the charts are pretty condensed though):

http://www.orbitfiles.com/users/eyeon9

There are some "rare" photos and some AA77 FDR stuff mixed in there- you probably want the .PDFs first.

There should be a Windoze and WindowsCE download of that offline calculator at:

http://www.calculator.org/download.html

EDIT: I nearly always use an XY graph type in Excel, and the "mixed data set" thing I mentioned in post #7 is really a non-issue that way, as long as the timestamps are handled carefully.

[dMz]

Here are some screenshots that I took in the RS3 RADES software that show the main functions that I usually use to export and filter the radar return data. There are 3 documents on the main RADES ISO and online help, too.

"Introduction to RS3.doc"
"Readme.doc"
"Readme.rtf"

Right click menu in Sensor Display:
http://www.orbitfiles.com/download/id2922247696.html

Querying an area to export .CSV data:
http://www.orbitfiles.com/download/id2922249727.html

Setting up a data filter "geographic" boundary:
http://www.orbitfiles.com/download/id2922248414.html

The "query area" and "filter boundary" will require multiple clicks to set the area in question (green is filter boundary, pink is query area)- you won't see the area lines until after a click or two.

[JFK]

Actually Access can do graphs and other neat stuff.... but I am extremely rusty in using it...
The last time I did anything major with it was in 1997 ? Whenever it was first released.
I think it had to be coded with the built in Access basic.
I just use it to load sets of numbers too large for Excel nowadays.

Looked at your graphics... You did those in Excel ? I'm very impressed. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif)

Thanks for the screenshots, very informative. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[dMz]

I searched and found the following aircraft and/or helicopter launches from the Andrews AFB area in the large "Cnv_Multifile Sensor Data" RADES file:

11:08:07 Zulu time, Mode 3 5632, Mode 2 4567, N 38d 49' 51.528" W 76d 51' 55.963"

11:29:58 Zulu time, Mode 3 5342, Mode 2 1607, N 38d 17' 40.984" W 76d 24' 43.654"

11:48:01 Zulu time, Mode 3 0100, Mode 2 5555, N 38d 19' 11.933" W 76d 22' 50.019"

12:15:01 Zulu time, Mode 3 0153, Mode 2 0231, N 38d 19' 19.277" W 76d 21' 40.339"

12:34:52 Zulu time, Mode 3 4631, Mode 2 6413 6402 & 7432, N 38d 49' 00.968" W 76d 52' 02.023"

12:47:49 Zulu time, Mode 3 0151, Mode 2 5555, N 38d 08' 27.019" W 76d 26' 12.270"

13:20:08 Zulu time, Mode 3 0514, Mode 2 0100, N 38d 18' 36.782" W 76d 26' 43.864"

13:28:28 Zulu time, Mode 3 4663, Mode 2 0100, N 38d 17' 56.974" W 76d 25' 34.104"

13:43:45 Zulu time, Mode 3 0310, Mode 2 0077, N 38d 49' 09.701" W 76d 52' 20.165"

14:38:44 Zulu time, Mode 3 4663, Mode 2 6413, N 38d 49' 15.403" W 76d 52' 00.152"

There appears to be some overlap with the Mode 2 aircraft request posted earlier.

[dMz]

I searched and found the following aircraft and/or helicopter launches from the Langley AFB area (Newport News, VA in the large "Cnv_Multifile Sensor Data" RADES file:

11:01:00 Zulu Time, Mode 3 0542, Mode 2 5555, N 36d 56' 08.748", W 76d 18' 42.747"

11:08:07 Zulu Time, Mode 3 5632, Mode 2 4567, N 38d 49' 51.528", W 76d 51' 55.963"

11:30:00 Zulu Time, Mode 3 1200, Mode 2 1627 0727 & 7700, N 36d 57' 02.740", W 76d 17' 48.610"
NOTE: there appear to be multiple Mode 3 "squawk 1200" aircraft around 11:30-11:35 in this area.

11:50:37 Zulu Time, Mode 3 0151, Mode 2 5555, N 38d 13' 53.795" W 76d 20' 19.761"

NOTE: There were several Mode 2 aircraft circling in the area outside Langley AFB in the later "Multifile Sensor Data" timeframe.

[tnemelckram]

Hi dMole:

I searched and found the following aircraft and/or helicopter launches from the Andrews AFB area in the large "Cnv_Multifile Sensor Data" RADES file:
(snip)
13:20:08 Zulu time, Mode 3 0514, Mode 2 0100, N 38d 18' 36.782" W 76d 26' 43.864"

13:28:28 Zulu time, Mode 3 4663, Mode 2 0100, N 38d 17' 56.974" W 76d 25' 34.104"

13:43:45 Zulu time, Mode 3 0310, Mode 2 0077, N 38d 49' 09.701" W 76d 52' 20.165"
(snip)
There appears to be some overlap with the Mode 2 aircraft request posted earlier.

I'm not sure that this will be new or helpful or whether my method is sound, but I think that the DCA radar video clip from 9:00 to 10:00 on 9/11 might shed some light on these three. I don't have a full understanding of the matter, but I'll take a shot.

1. 13:43:45 Zulu time, Mode 3 0310, Mode 2 0077, N 38d 49' 09.701" W 76d 52' 20.165 - It shows an aircraft taking off from Andrews close to this time and assigns the number "0310" to its return, above the two numbers for its altitude and speed. Then, in about 5 to 10 seconds, it looks to me like the "0310" changes to "VEN77". It appears to be VENUS 77, the second E4B (did I get that right?) that was seen "over the White House" sometime after 9:50 AM. I am sure that the return proceeds to follow a track consistent with it being this E4B.

2. 13:20:08 Zulu time, Mode 3 0514, Mode 2 0100, N 38d 18' 36.782" W 76d 26' 43.864 This could be the first E4B known as VENUS22. On the other thread I said the take off time was around 13:18, so 13:20 is close enough for me. The problem is that it looks like codes other than "0514" or "0100" are initially assigned to the return that changes shortly changes its designation to VENUS22.

3. 13:28:28 Zulu time, Mode 3 4663, Mode 2 0100, N 38d 17' 56.974" W 76d 25' 34.104 I said that WORD31 took off at 13:27. That was based on my rough recall of what I had seen. Again, this could be the plane that others have speculated was Airforce On or Two or some other aircraft with a dark and weighty purpose. I have the same reservations about the initial code as those for VENUS22 above.

I have the following general reservations about all three:

1. I don't fully understand what I am talking about.

2. The information is hard to read. Oftentimes information for two, three or four returns overlaps and its hard to read the jumbled information.

3. The video clip is hard to use. It came in a .exe file that did not provide the software codes needed to use all of its features. All of the buttons for working the screen within the program are disabled. The work it, you get a separate drop down box that only allows you to payse, stop, fast forward or rewind to beginning. Thus you can't go back an forth over a short amount of time; instead you have to rewind to the beginning and fast forward to the same time, which really breaks up the process.

4. I'm not sure that I understand the nature of your information. I assume it came from some data print out showing radar returns from various stations. The good news is that I like movies better than reading.

This post has been edited by tnemelckram: Dec 21 2008, 03:50 PM

[tnemelckram]

HI again dMole

I have the 84 Rades DCA area video clip on another computer. I think it covers a different time period than the DCA Radar clip, but that the overlap in time is considerable. Do you think that it would be a valuable experiment to play them both simultaneously and look for discrepancies or corroboration? Synchronizing them would be difficult but I might be able to do that well enough to find something meaningful.

[dMz]

HI again dMole

I have the 84 Rades DCA area video clip on another computer. I think it covers a different time period than the DCA Radar clip, but that the overlap in time is considerable. Do you think that it would be a valuable experiment to play them both simultaneously and look for discrepancies or corroboration? Synchronizing them would be difficult but I might be able to do that well enough to find something meaningful.

Hey TN,

I'm in a hurry right now, so let's call the various time synchronization "baggage" and debates as "out of scope," then I recommend comparing the sets of timestamps "as is" in a "preliminary investigation." Just take excellent notes (or screencaptures of the "interesting" parts.)

Let's also assert explicitly here that error analysis, propagation of errors, etc. is out of scope for our discussion and investigative purposes for now. Let's just hash out some "rough" numbers and data points for now.

EDIT: Spreadsheets make excellent places to take time-based notes, and are data-sortable BTW.

[dMz]

1. 13:43:45 Zulu time, Mode 3 0310, Mode 2 0077, N 38d 49' 09.701" W 76d 52' 20.165 - It shows an aircraft taking off from Andrews close to this time and assigns the number "0310" to its return, above the two numbers for its altitude and speed. Then, in about 5 to 10 seconds, it looks to me like the "0310" changes to "VEN77". It appears to be VENUS 77, the second E4B (did I get that right?) that was seen "over the White House" sometime after 9:50 AM. I am sure that the return proceeds to follow a track consistent with it being this E4B.

2. 13:20:08 Zulu time, Mode 3 0514, Mode 2 0100, N 38d 18' 36.782" W 76d 26' 43.864 This could be the first E4B known as VENUS22. On the other thread I said the take off time was around 13:18, so 13:20 is close enough for me. The problem is that it looks like codes other than "0514" or "0100" are initially assigned to the return that changes shortly changes its designation to VENUS22.

3. 13:28:28 Zulu time, Mode 3 4663, Mode 2 0100, N 38d 17' 56.974" W 76d 25' 34.104 I said that WORD31 took off at 13:27. That was based on my rough recall of what I had seen. Again, this could be the plane that others have speculated was Airforce On or Two or some other aircraft with a dark and weighty purpose. I have the same reservations about the initial code as those for VENUS22 above.

Using some information on this thread,

E4b's Word Destinations Etc., According to Andrews controllers
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....showtopic=15818

and the information that Boonedoggled posted here at post #11:
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....&p=10765533

"0512 =WORD31 B747"

I went back and searched the RADES data for "0512." I found 2 planes with that Mode 3/A code, and isolated blips over PA, WV, VA, and CT. The "northern 0512" was flying northeasterly along the US/Canada border. The "southern 0512" turns over VA and then appears to head for Offutt AFB in NE (would be my guess as the data ends). I remember some ambiguity about the E-4B being referred to as both SWORD31 and WORD31, so there may have been a truncation of the code.

Here is a screencapture of the RADES flightpaths for both planes:

http://flickcabin.com/public/view/23366
------------------------------------------------
The really strange aircraft is the code "5175" for "MUSCLE6," "a UH1" Huey helicopter. There also appears to be an airplane at 23000 feet flying over Canada with this same code.

Here is the "5175" activity near the Pentagon (and it may be as many as 6 different helos looking at the RADES data). These aircraft do drop off radar and have some negative ModeC altitudes in the data, so I would think they were flying quite low at times, and one or 2 may have had an altimeter or transponder problem.

http://flickcabin.com/public/view/23367

Right around the time of the pentagon events, a "5175" flies north away from the Pentagon, then circles back to the south and heads for Andrews AFB.

http://flickcabin.com/public/view/23368

As you can see in that image, there is another "5175" in the area (that flies eastward over the Potomac River and also lands at Andrews not long after this "Pentagon 5175" that made the "double back" flightpath for whatever reason...

I will need to look at the data and post some times and locations to refer to these multiple "5175" aircraft (that appear to be low flying aircraft).

[dMz]

The really strange aircraft is the code "5175" for "MUSCLE6," "a UH1" Huey helicopter. There also appears to be an airplane at 23000 feet flying over Canada with this same code.

Here is the "5175" activity near the Pentagon (and it may be as many as 6 different helos looking at the RADES data). These aircraft do drop off radar and have some negative ModeC altitudes in the data, so I would think they were flying quite low at times, and one or 2 may have had an altimeter or transponder problem.

http://flickcabin.com/public/view/23367

Right around the time of the pentagon events, a "5175" flies north away from the Pentagon, then circles back to the south and heads for Andrews AFB.

http://flickcabin.com/public/view/23368

As you can see in that image, there is another "5175" in the area (that flies eastward over the Potomac River and also lands at Andrews not long after this "Pentagon 5175" that made the "double back" flightpath for whatever reason...

"MUSCLE6" and "5175" were also discussed here at post #21 onward:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....&p=10762308