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Wtc7 Southwestern Area, Source of smoke?

SanderO
post Jun 28 2012, 06:06 AM
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A huge section of the south side at level 4 shows no floor framing. Is this the open space above the sub station? From that plan it look like there was a 5 story high space on the south side which was column free... almost the full width of the building. Can you post the framing plans for level 1,2,3? Thanks.
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onesliceshort
post Jun 28 2012, 10:29 AM
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QUOTE (SanderO @ Jun 28 2012, 11:06 AM) *
A huge section of the south side at level 4 shows no floor framing. Is this the open space above the sub station? From that plan it look like there was a 5 story high space on the south side which was column free... almost the full width of the building. Can you post the framing plans for level 1,2,3? Thanks.


This?



Check the OP.
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onesliceshort
post Jun 28 2012, 10:40 AM
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QUOTE (DoYouEverWonder @ Jun 28 2012, 04:32 AM) *
Odd. But it looks like the cloud of smoke is from the Plaza between WTC 5 & 6?


It is smoke isn't it DYEW?

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/6310/imagehysw.jpg

I know that scores of vehicles burned in that area but prior to 10am?

I also found these images that are in no way conclusive but worth a peek:

White smoke beyond north of WTC7 (debris?)

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/9409/imagehcs.jpg

Possible smoke (faint) west of WTC7 or camera/trick of light?

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/6499/imagedpv.jpg

Top of grey smoke plume (to the left above neighbouring building) or..?

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/2778/imageaji.jpg



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elreb
post Jun 28 2012, 12:17 PM
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QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Jun 28 2012, 04:29 AM) *


OSS

If you look at the lower lobby picture carefully you can see the level 3 bridge.

Part of level 4 was open the width of the lower lobby?

Con-Ed went up to the bottom of level 3

Where the southern wall of Con-Ed meets WTC7…WTC7 is open to the bottom of level 3

This two story area is hidden from public view.

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SanderO
post Jun 28 2012, 01:12 PM
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QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Jun 28 2012, 10:29 AM) *
This?


The lobby depicted in that photo is 4 bays of columns... the column free space extends the entire width of the building AND wraps around to the east where there is no lobby.

Are there other photos of the lobby showing the fill extent of the multi story space?
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kawika
post Jun 28 2012, 02:11 PM
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QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Jun 23 2012, 11:58 PM) *
Aah, okay. I was wondering what the hell was going on throughout the east face of floor 13.

But the furniture arrangements that are shown are more or less accurate? Dimension wise?


Again, we can only guess without very specific plans and invoices for the furniture. Still working on these records.
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kawika
post Jun 28 2012, 02:50 PM
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OSS Quote:

In the floor 8 plans, the northeast corner where the Hess/Jennings window is:

http://www.rebrammer.com/images/floor8a.jpg

Is it my imagination/perspective or does the ceiling behind him suggest a stairway (angled, low ceiling)?
Or a store room?

We noticed this previously, but cannot conclude what it is. It suggests other renovations beyond the Floor 8 plan dated 10/00.

Still diggin'
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elreb
post Jun 28 2012, 04:10 PM
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Con-Ed was two stories tall...not three.

Ground elevation: 305’9”

Level 3 floor: 334’6”

Difference of 28’7”




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onesliceshort
post Jun 28 2012, 09:40 PM
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handsdown.gif
QUOTE (elreb @ Jun 28 2012, 09:10 PM) *
Con-Ed was two stories tall...not three.

Ground elevation: 305’9”

Level 3 floor: 334’6”

Difference of 28’7”






That last image is excellent elreb! First time I've been able to see in full the lower floors and how they relate to eachother.

Kickin ass research lads!
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onesliceshort
post Jun 28 2012, 11:07 PM
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I've been looking through the structural images thread linked by MajorTom.

There are scores of images. I'll gladly look through them and search for those relevant to the lower floors if somebody can help me find my bearings on these ones:


http://the911forum.freeforums.org/nist-foi...raphs-t501.html


Southeast face

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/9793/030619854.jpg

http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/6956/030619853.jpg

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/9793/030619854.jpg


?

http://imageshack.us/f/845/060619851.jpg/

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/9498/060619852.jpg

http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/2442/060619855.jpg

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/4455/060619857.jpg

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/3782/130619853.jpg

VIP

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/2064/070619851.jpg


Looking south towards wtc complex

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/2480/070619853.jpg

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/3750/070619854.jpg

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/4846/070619856.jpg

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/8174/070619857.jpg


ConEd?

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/6242/130619851.jpg

(west broadway)

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/5156/130619852.jpg




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elreb
post Jun 29 2012, 02:34 PM
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This should help with the Con-Ed picture.

They must be standing on the underground truck ramp.


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elreb
post Jun 29 2012, 04:01 PM
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Just for the fun of it…I looked into Salomon, Smith, Barney.

The story sort of begins with the City Bank of New York and later a Jewish banker named Sanford Weill.

From 1982 to 1985 “Sandy Weill” was president of American Express.

In 1988 he buys Smith Barney and in 1992 they merge with Travelers.

In 1997 they buy Solomon brothers and in 1998 they merge with Citicorp [City Bank] to form Citigroup.

Sandy Weill was good friends with Gerald Ford and Treasury secretary Robert Rubin who both worked for Citigroup.

In 2001, Sandy Weill was the CEO of Citigroup and a director of the Federal Reserve of New York.

Interesting that Frank Lowy of the Westfield Group, Larry Silverstein, Port Authority Chairman Lewis M. Eisenberg, Robert Rubin and Sanford Weill are all Jewish.
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SanderO
post Jun 29 2012, 07:00 PM
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QUOTE (elreb @ Jun 29 2012, 04:01 PM) *
Interesting that Frank Lowy of the Westfield Group, Larry Silverstein, Port Authority Chairman Lewis M. Eisenberg, Robert Rubin and Sanford Weill are all Jewish.


What is interesting about it? There are a few million Jews in NYC.
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elreb
post Jun 29 2012, 08:30 PM
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OSS,

While researching SSB, I also looked up the word stupidity and it goes like this:

Stupidity is a lack of intelligence, understanding, reason, wit, or common sense.

It comes from the Latin verb stupere, for being numb or astonished, and is related to stupor; in Roman culture, "the stupidus of the mimes" was a sort of "professional buffoon or fool.

The earliest comic performances (after the Etrurian Fescennina) date back to 390 BC where we are told that a wooden stage was erected in the forum for performances for the amusement of the people.

The satura was a kind of coarse buffoonery mingled with recitation, chanting, gesture, and dance—to the accompaniment of the flute.

Although satire is usually meant to be funny, its greater purpose is often constructive social criticism, using wit as a weapon.

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elreb
post Jun 30 2012, 12:59 PM
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Con-Ed before

Con-Ed after

Con-Ed and ramp
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DoYouEverWonder
post Jun 30 2012, 07:34 PM
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QUOTE
In the floor 8 plans, the northeast corner where the Hess/Jennings window is:



Is it my imagination/perspective or does the ceiling behind him suggest a stairway (angled, low ceiling)?
Or a store room?


From what I can tell from the floor plans, it looks like there were two stairwells in the core of the building. One to the east of the elevators and another one to the west.

But without the rest of the overlays, it's hard to tell what's where.

Funny, thing though - can anyone tell me where the bathrooms are? Especially on the floors that were built out with mostly cubicles.

This post has been edited by DoYouEverWonder: Jun 30 2012, 07:40 PM
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kawika
post Jun 30 2012, 08:24 PM
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QUOTE (DoYouEverWonder @ Jun 28 2012, 09:34 PM) *
From what I can tell from the floor plans, it looks like there were two stairwells in the core of the building. One to the east of the elevators and another one to the west.

But without the rest of the overlays, it's hard to tell what's where.

Funny, thing though - can anyone tell me where the bathrooms are? Especially on the floors that were built out with mostly cubicles.


Where they always are in these types of buildings. Near the elevators in the core.
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onesliceshort
post Jun 30 2012, 09:45 PM
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@DYEW

I believe that the eastern stairway was to the south of the building (well, access to the stairway). NIST claims that the FDNY and OEM entered the east stairway at 1pm

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/2589/imageplb.jpg

That's the doorway. Whether the stairs are in that area is another matter. 

The shipping ramp is in that area too

http://www.rebrammer.com/images/west2.jpg

Elreb and Kawika are babystepping me through the structural images. Maybe they'll be of help when we get them sorted.
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DoYouEverWonder
post Jul 1 2012, 06:10 PM
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QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Jun 30 2012, 08:45 PM) *
@DYEW

I believe that the eastern stairway was to the south of the building (well, access to the stairway). NIST claims that the FDNY and OEM entered the east stairway at 1pm

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/2589/imageplb.jpg

That's the doorway. Whether the stairs are in that area is another matter. 

The shipping ramp is in that area too

http://www.rebrammer.com/images/west2.jpg

Elreb and Kawika are babystepping me through the structural images. Maybe they'll be of help when we get them sorted.

This is why I asked:

In hi-rise construction, you will see certain features in the same place on every floor, for example the elevator shafts.

Every commercial building has to have bathrooms. Because of the design of WTC 7, I would expect them to be located in the core too. That means the bathrooms should be located in the same place on every floor (except the mechanical floors). So like the elevators and the main staircases, we should see bathrooms in the same places on plans for the build outs for each floor, but I don't see any bathrooms? That might indicate that these plans were sloppy ones made after the fact or that they were just for show to begin with and not a real representation of what's on these floors. dunno.gif



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DoYouEverWonder
post Jul 1 2012, 06:15 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks to me that the ConEd Substation is a masonry / block building?

Shouldn't this building or at least the masonry walls have survived, even if the steel above it failed? Any pics of the core of WTC 7 after the collapse? It would be interesting to see how much of this building was left.
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