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The Physical Damage To The Cab, let's look at it in context

kawika
post Nov 22 2008, 03:59 PM
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Seems like Lloyd would have been killed just from the whipping sideways of the pole during the skid.

Seems like the damaged rear seat would have been much more extensive due to that whip-lashing pole.

Seems like there should have been a lot of glass dragged into the rear seat and floor area.

Seems like there should have been aluminum paint color all over and sideways of the "dent" in the dashboard/window interface.

Seems like two guys, especially one of whom was 70 years old, would have a lot of trouble moving a 200+ pound pole without messing the shine up.

Seems like it was a stroke of unbelievable luck to get a passerby to so quickly help remove the pole before anyone had a chance to catch it on film still sticking outta the car.

Seems like someone stuck in traffic northbound would have mentioned this extremely unusual event.

Maybe I am expecting way too much.
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Craig Ranke CIT
post Nov 22 2008, 04:12 PM
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Seems like we have absolute proof that the plane didn't hit the poles!


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WetBlanket
post Dec 28 2008, 11:14 PM
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What could possibly have broken the passenger side seat back without tearing it? Certainly not a jagged edge. The hole in the windshield has at least one square corner, too small for the base. No way a length of pole did that.

On the other hand smashing a big hole right through a laminated windshield takes a lot of force, I can't imagine doing that on the road without being seen by somebody not in on the plot.
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JackD
post Jan 5 2009, 09:17 PM
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QUOTE (kawika @ Nov 20 2008, 05:59 PM) *
Seems like Lloyd would have been killed just from the whipping sideways of the pole during the skid.

Seems like the damaged rear seat would have been much more extensive due to that whip-lashing pole.

Seems like there should have been a lot of glass dragged into the rear seat and floor area.

Seems like there should have been aluminum paint color all over and sideways of the "dent" in the dashboard/window interface.

Seems like two guys, especially one of whom was 70 years old, would have a lot of trouble moving a 200+ pound pole without messing the shine up.

Seems like it was a stroke of unbelievable luck to get a passerby to so quickly help remove the pole before anyone had a chance to catch it on film still sticking outta the car.

Seems like someone stuck in traffic northbound would have mentioned this extremely unusual event.

Maybe I am expecting way too much.



Great post. The degree of whip-lashing of the pole would seem likely to crush the entire windshield, and/or Lloyd, and/or the A pillars of his cab. and, gosh, at a minumum, scratch hood.

I also think that the lloyd story is bogus. I don't know what did happen, but, lloyd has never been asked to testify under oath.
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madtruth
post Jan 5 2009, 11:24 PM
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QUOTE (JackD @ Jan 5 2009, 08:17 PM) *
Seems like it was a stroke of unbelievable luck to get a passerby to so quickly help remove the pole before anyone had a chance to catch it on film still sticking outta the car.

Great post. The degree of whip-lashing of the pole would seem likely to crush the entire windshield, and/or Lloyd, and/or the A pillars of his cab. and, gosh, at a minumum, scratch hood.

I also think that the lloyd story is bogus. I don't know what did happen, but, lloyd has never been asked to testify under oath.



Remember, Craig interviewed Lloyd previously where Lloyd stated it was a friend of his that helped him remove the pole. He changed the story and stated in "Eye of the Storm" that it was a stranger/passerby (who uttered not a word) that helped him. And, you're right Jack, the damage (lack of) is impossible.

Marc
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madtruth
post Jan 11 2009, 12:06 PM
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QUOTE (madtruth @ Jan 5 2009, 10:24 PM) *
Remember, Craig interviewed Lloyd previously where Lloyd stated it was a friend of his that helped him remove the pole. He changed the story and stated in "Eye of the Storm" that it was a stranger/passerby (who uttered not a word) that helped him. And, you're right Jack, the damage (lack of) is impossible.

Marc





Sorry for the caps, but I replied to a few fire dept truthers so to speak (the ones that watched the Eye of the Storm DVD and I also sent them the link to First Accomplice), via email in caps and I decided to copy and paste what I emailed them here.

I regards to this video below and also the Eye of the Storm video, I had some thoughts.

The First Known Accomplice? (featuring Lloyd England)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5090691830986329305



IN THIS INTERVIEW (FIRST ACCOMPLICE), LlOYD'S ACCOUNT OF WHAT HAPPENED IS SO FAKE AND REHEARSED, IT IS PATHETIC. AND EVEN STRANGER IS THAT HE TELLS THE INTERVIEWER (CIT MEMBER, BUT NOT RANKE) THAT THERE IS NO WAY A PLANE HIT THE PENTAGON DUE TO THE SMALL HOLE AND LACK OF DEBRIS. THAT IS SO INLINE WITH BEING AT THE LEAST, AN UNWITTING GOV'T SHILL PLAYER IF YOU WILL. PRETEND TO BE A SO CALLED CONSPIRACY THEORIST SO IF ANYTHING GOES AWRY WITH HIS STORY -- THEN HE IS AUTOMATICALLY DISCREDITED.

SUMMERIZING WITH DETAILS FROM BOTH FILMS AND SOME THOUGHTS (sic):

1)HIS STORY DOESN'T MAKE SENSE AT ALL. HE FABRICATES DETAILS AND OTHER DETAILS ARE INCONSISTENT OR OUTRIGHT LIES (FRIEND VS. STRANGER OR LOCATION >> ON THE BRIDGE VS NOT BEING ON THE BRIDGE,ETC)

2) HE HAS A DAVID ICKE CONSPIRACY BOOK IN HIS CAB AT THE TIME OF THE EVENT

3)HE'S SUPPOSEDLY TAKING CONSPIRACY THEORY CLASSES ONCE A WEEK.

4) HIS WIFE WORKS WITH THE FBI AND SHE MAKES ODD COMMENTS LIKE "I KNOW HOW THAT POLE GOT THERE, BUT I AINT TELLING"

5) HE DOESN'T BELIEVE A PLANE HIT THE PENTAGON BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF HOLE SIZE AND COMMERCIAL PLANE DEBRIS

ONE OTHER THING DOES COME TO MIND. DO YOU THINK MAYBE LlOYD WAS TOLD BEFOREHAND THAT HE WAS AN ACTOR IN A EXERCISE DRILL? DID SOMEONE TELL LlOYD THAT THE STAGING OF THE POLE/S WAS FOR THE DRILL?

IN OTHER WORDS, AS HAS BEEN WONDERED MANY TIMES BEFORE, WAS LlOYD AN UNWITTING PLAYER? WHEN THE PENTAGON EVENT OCCURED FOR REAL, WAS LIOYD LATER TOLD "THESE THINGS HAPPEN AS EXERCISES SOMETIMES GO LIVE"?

THAT'S WHAT THE OTHER GUYS AT THE DEPT TELL ME.THE ONES WHO THINK I AM CRAZY. THEY ASK ME:"IF WE ARE DOING A TRAINING EXERCISE INVOLVING A FIRE SCENARIO IN WAREHOUSE AND SUDDENLY A WAREHOUSE FIRE CALL OCCURS AT THE SAME TIME -- DOWN THE STREET -- DOES THAT MEAN THE FIRE WAS STAGED OR AN INSIDE JOB"? THESE THINGS HAPPEN. AND THIS SUCH THING WAS 'DRILLED' INTO LLOYD'S MIND....THAT THIS WAS PURELY COINCIDENTAL.

I TELL THE OTHER FF'S THERE IS NO COMPARING SUCH A SCENARIO TO THIS ONE SINCE FIRES, MAJOR CAR ACCIDENTS,ETC HAPPEN FREQUENTLY IN VARIOUS PLACES WITHIN A LARGE CITY AND SUCH AN EVENT DURING ONE OF OUR TRAINING EXERCISES WOULD NOT BE DEEMED AS SUCH AN ODD SO CALLED COINCIDENTAL OCCURENCE. UNLIKE 9/11, WHERE SUCH AN EVENT OR EVENTS ARE UNLIKE ANY OTHER AND THE NUMBER OF COINCIDENCES AT ALL THE SCENES...NYC, D.C., & PENN....ARE IN REALITY -- NOT COINCIDENCE AT ALL.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE CHANCES THAT LlOYD WAS INVOLVED IN SUCH A SCENARIO? THAT HE WAS A ROLE PLAYER IN A PREPLANNED SETUP OF EXERCISE VS REAL WORLD ---- THE VICTIMIZED NAIVE ELDERLY CAB DRIVER PROPAGANDIST SALESMAN? WHAT WAS LLOYD TOLD OR PROMISED AFTER THE DRILL WENT LIVE? WAS HE PAID OFF?

AND THOUGH LLOYD PROBABLY HAS LONG SINCE FIGURED THIS OUT AND GONE FROM NAIVE TO WISE YET UNWILLING TO GIVE UP HIS 15 MINUTES OF FAME, HE HAS BEEN HUSHED ON THE MOST PART (MAINSTREAM MEDIA INTERVIEWS). THE QUESTION IS - WHY DOES HE STILL ACCEPT INTERVIEWS FROM CIT ? WHY DOES HIS FBI EMPLOYEE WIFE STATE TO CIT "IF I WAS LLOYD, I WOULD NOT BE TALKING TO YOU"? AND "I KNOW HOW THE POLE GOT THERE BUT I AINT TELLING."

I LOVED THE RECENT NORTH FLIGHT PATH AS WELL, BUT I WOULD LOVE TO SEE CRAIG AND CIT BREAK LLOYD COMPLETELY (HE KNOWS YOU GOT HIM JUST ABOUT TO THAT POINT IF NOT ALREADY). BUT, PLEASE....NO WATERBOARDING ALLOWED,LOL! rolleyes.gif whistle.gif



Marc

This post has been edited by madtruth: Jan 11 2009, 12:34 PM
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paranoia
post Jan 12 2009, 12:42 AM
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hey madtruth, welcome to the forum and to the pursuit of the truth about what happened on 9/11.

regarding lloyde and his level of complicity, you might want to look at this thread for a range of thoughts on the matter (including craig and aldo's):

http://z3.invisionfree.com/CIT/index.php?s...c=417&st=15

feel free to look around that forum for some other insights and info as well.

good luck!
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madtruth
post Jan 12 2009, 12:18 PM
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QUOTE (paranoia @ Jan 11 2009, 11:42 PM) *
hey madtruth, welcome to the forum and to the pursuit of the truth about what happened on 9/11.

regarding lloyde and his level of complicity, you might want to look at this thread for a range of thoughts on the matter (including craig and aldo's):

http://z3.invisionfree.com/CIT/index.php?s...c=417&st=15

feel free to look around that forum for some other insights and info as well.

good luck!
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Thanks for the welcome and the link to this thread and other board!

Great work by "22205" on the exercise scenario possibility and the other things he posted of interest. The other firefighters at my dept who watched Eye of the Storm were very interested in what they watched but bombarded me with questions as to why and how he would be involved. The exercise scenario is one that just popped in my head yesterday.Now I see it's been brought up before.

I emailed the ff's with this (my take) scenario yesterday before I saw your reply with the link to this thread. But now I will email them 22205's take on it to show them that it's just not me who thought of this. I think they will probably be blown away once again or at the least, get them thinking. The thing is to get these ff's to stay involved, as they have short attention spans due to family situations,2nd jobs,etc.


Marc
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paranoia
post Jan 12 2009, 08:35 PM
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You’re welcome madtruth, but I hope that you saw some of the rebuttals to 22205’s speculations as well, in particular aldo’s point about the timing of the event: lloyde would have been aware that the WTC’s had been hit for real (and not simulated as a drill), so he had the choice of backing out or not showing up to the pentagon if he was innocent or unwitting, cuz at that point he could no longer be under the (false) impression that “drills” were taking place. So the fact that he was aware of the events in NYC, yet still showed up at the pentagon, is a good indicator that he may have been more involved than duped. Imo, aldo’s point has some major merit and should be given serious consideration in any assessment of lloyde’s complicity.

So feel free to make your own judgements about lloyde’s level of complicity. Frankly that’s secondary to the real deal: that the plane never flew near those poles, never hit them, and thus no pole ever flew into and/or smashed that cab’s windshield. So regardless of level, lloyde is definitely complicit one way or the other in lying about the pole. So he is guilty of deception and of aiding and abetting the perpetrators, as an accessory (possibly before as well, but definitely) after the fact.
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madtruth
post Jan 13 2009, 03:54 PM
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Those are great points. And also, the perps would not recruit him as an unwitting duped drill actor knowing that the WTC's would be hit prior and that the chances of Lloyd catching on so easily. So,yeah, it does point to him being knowingly involved rather than duped. And as you said, it's all academic anyway as we know. Lloyd is guilty,and the evidence is so overwhelming. So overwhelming that I think this has a better chance than anything we've seen before, to make it to a mainstream media source.
Let's hope so!

Marc


QUOTE (paranoia @ Jan 12 2009, 07:35 PM) *
You’re welcome madtruth, but I hope that you saw some of the rebuttals to 22205’s speculations as well, in particular aldo’s point about the timing of the event: lloyde would have been aware that the WTC’s had been hit for real (and not simulated as a drill), so he had the choice of backing out or not showing up to the pentagon if he was innocent or unwitting, cuz at that point he could no longer be under the (false) impression that “drills” were taking place. So the fact that he was aware of the events in NYC, yet still showed up at the pentagon, is a good indicator that he may have been more involved than duped. Imo, aldo’s point has some major merit and should be given serious consideration in any assessment of lloyde’s complicity.

So feel free to make your own judgements about lloyde’s level of complicity. Frankly that’s secondary to the real deal: that the plane never flew near those poles, never hit them, and thus no pole ever flew into and/or smashed that cab’s windshield. So regardless of level, lloyde is definitely complicit one way or the other in lying about the pole. So he is guilty of deception and of aiding and abetting the perpetrators, as an accessory (possibly before as well, but definitely) after the fact.
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JackD
post Jan 13 2009, 06:40 PM
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QUOTE (WetBlanket @ Dec 27 2008, 02:14 AM) *
What could possibly have broken the passenger side seat back without tearing it? Certainly not a jagged edge. The hole in the windshield has at least one square corner, too small for the base. No way a length of pole did that.

On the other hand smashing a big hole right through a laminated windshield takes a lot of force, I can't imagine doing that on the road without being seen by somebody not in on the plot.


Look to the upper left corner of the windshield and you will see a stand-alone unique impact point on the glass in the form of a spider-web about as large as a dinner plate.

There is now a very strong reason to doubt that the damage observed to lloyd's cab is consistent with his report of how it happened -- remember that the sole witness to the pole-into-windshield is Lloyd himself.

the photos argue strongly otherwise, and thus nothing Lloyd says should be taken as truth, since his credibility has been impeached. maybe part true, part lies, part self-deception, part CYA, i dont know. But Lloyd is no more trustworthy to me than Mr Bush or Mr Obama right now.

As to speculation about how the windshield and seat came to be damaged in that fashion, if you rule out the light pole strike story -- I dont know.

For all we know, Lloyd's windshield may have been fractured prior to his taxi being brought to the site -- or damaged near Rt 27, or at the site, we cant say. It coudl have happened any time between ?? 9/10/01 (assuming that that particular hackney licence cab was used by Lloyd on Monday before -- and 10:00am on 9/11/01 -- the approximate time of the photos that show damage.

given that there are no other witnesses, no video released that shows the Rt 27 or the cab, we cannot safely conclude how lloyd's cab was brought to the scene, if he was driving it, when and where and by what means the damage occurred to the windshield and the front/back passenger seat.

I do agree that someone bashing in windshield right there on Rt 27 in broad daylight would draw attention - -so i tend to favor the idea of bringing in Lloyd to be sworn in under oath as to how himself and his cab came to that spot, adn what he saw, who was there, what happened.

Additionally, VDOT or Pentagon surveillance cams might show the Rt 27 activity, what cars or people were coming or going, at what time.

I suspect the reason that the surveillance tapes were confiscated has nothing to do with whther the tapes show a plane or not, it has EVERYTHTING to do with who and what vehicles might appear in that surveillance cam tape moving around on 395, Wash Blvd, Rt 27, the helipad, everything.

That's why the cover-up.
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