9/11: Pentagon Aircraft Hijack Impossible, FLIGHT DECK DOOR CLOSED FOR ENTIRE FLIGHT Rating Options

[A. Syed]

Wow, I'm blown away by the number of views this thread has received!

[Guest_Turbofan_*]

I've taken screen shots of both links from FAA and Boeing to show the revision and certifcation history.

It would be a good idea for everyone to save copies to their hard drives in the event those pages get "lost".

This is huge news everyone. The FDR mods for FLT Deck were installed as per links, and the circuit uses a
proximity switch which rules out excuses for 'kicked down door', and 'faulty door switch'.

I will explain further with an indepth, simple break down with diagrams that non-techs can comprehend.

Congrats on the find P4T and members. G Bush & Co. have some 'splainin to do!

[joebeast]

Gentlemen,

This is a message from France where people are getting more and more aware of the problems of 911 even if we still have a lot of very agressive debunkers within the french media. I've been labeled as a negationist after I went on multiple tv shows to expose the doubts we all have. (I'm a actor director well known in france)

I've met with Niels Harrit and Mc Kenney, Chiesa and other specialists, architects, and scientists.

I subjected the file to an independant plane crash expert who worked on the TWA800 explosion (another incredible "mishaps" from the US gov in 1996, probably hit by a missile during training...The files for this very sensitive accident where archived in...WTC7) http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/CRASH/TWA/twa.html. He asked around and looked at the file and came back with a mixed answer.

From different pilots who flew on Boeing 757, none of them can confirm that the doors where monitored before 911. But most of them flew on international long courier flight on french companies, not american ones.

As you all know, proofs have to be undebunkable from aA to Z if we can take them into account and talk about it in the media.

The debunkers's first attack is that most of us are gathering informations from the web and that this info is been repeated and confirmed by the buzz before it's actually proven solid evidence. I don't want to be caught in that loop so i need to verify everything by myself and cross examin everything before I can stick my neck out.

If I go in the media and I claim that the doors of A77 where never opened, I have to be sure that a debunker who's more specialized than me cannot provide documents that confirms the opposite.

Understand that when we talk to the press, they are looking for every words, every numbers, claim, proof that we bring on the table to debunk it. For an audience, if we look like fools ONLY on one detail; then we loose all credibility. This is a very important aspect of the truth movement.

Even if the amount of evidences are getting stronger everyday, I try never to forget that we are looking for the truth, we cannot make it.

Right now, the information is been confirmed by some of your members and pilots, but we need a final article that will bring all the details into one understandable and accurate document with all the datas, and physical documents that will confirm your work and can be used as a reference.

We "civilians" need scientific articles that we can use to pass the message along without looking stupid in front of specialists.

Thank you for your incredible work with the web site and the films (i ordered all 7 of them, very "educational" (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ).

M

[tezzajw]

If I go in the media and I claim that the doors of A77 where never opened, I have to be sure that a debunker who's more specialized than me cannot provide documents that confirms the opposite.

You pretty much summarise it right there. Be careful of words and claims.

IF it can be determined that the sensors were working fine, they were wired up properly and installed, the FDR was functioning properly, etc... if all that checks out, then it's best to state that according to the FDR, the doors were always CLOSED.

Stating facts can't be disputed. Stating opinions can be disputed. None of us were on the flight deck that day. None of us knows what happened, which is why absolute facts are critical.

Of course, there's the big conditional IF everything can be shown to be functioning normally.

IF that case can be made, then it is up to the government and the official government story believers to defend their hijack story. There is no requirement for anyone to say that the doors were never opened, as that's not strictly a true statement. The doors could have been opened extremely briefly, without being sensed. The only requirment is to point to the perfectly functioning FDR, which shows that the doors were always CLOSED and then to ask them how the flight deck was breached.

Let them make up the stories for how the flight deck can be breached, with the FDR reading doors CLOSED. Don't offer any theories or opinion, just rely on the fact gained from the perfectly working FDR system. After all, they have the burden to prove the hijack and it will be a lot harder for them to explain it, with a perfectly functioning FDR system showing the door CLOSED. Maybe MacGyver and Michael Weston (Burn Notice) were helping the hijackers - who knows - let them think up their own reasons and excuses for how it was done with the FDR showing the door CLOSED.

You can see the scramble on some government loyalist forums as they are already inventing ways to breach a flight deck with the FDR showing a CLOSED door.



Of course, that's a long way off. Until it can be shown, absolutely 100%, that everything checks out, it's all speculative. While I don't mean to look like I am pouring cold water on the effort, it will need a lot more independent verification before the claim can be made as fact. It's a good feeling to have raised hopes, however it may be more than likely that there could be another explanation for the reading. At the very least, it may raise suspicions about some other parameters that may or may not have been recording properly. If part of the FDR data is somewhat suspect, then what other parts of the data may also be suspect?

People who jump the gun probably need to ride it out a little and see what happens, while others are certainly working behind the scenes to try and crack this latest puzzle.

That's my take on it.

This post has been edited by tezzajw: Dec 1 2009, 06:45 AM

[rob balsamo]

Hi joebeast,

Welcome to the forum.

American Airlines shows that they record the door, United Airlines does not.

Recording the door is airline specfic. So asking pilots from other Airlines (inside or outside the USA) is moot.

If you intend to go on media and interview, stick to the facts.

The facts are

- the FDR shows too high to hit the pentagon
- Shows too great a descent for the virtually level flight path seen in the Pentagon Parking Cam video
- Shows the door closed for the Hijacked flight.
- The NTSB/FBI refuse to comment

also, we have one page press releases left margin of our home page which you can use. http://pilotsfor911truth.org

One page articles are linked from our front page for any type of argument out there presently.

If you would like to browse the common arguments, please see these two links.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=7163

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=18428

These are the facts. All else is theory and speculation with respect to the data until the NTSB or FBI explain their data and provide proof for their claims.

Keep in mind, this is a very complex topic, The winner of a debate on public television will only prove who has done more homework prior to the interview. Not who is right.

Hope this helps.

[joebeast]

Thanks for you quick reply.

I would like to get in touch with the admin of this site for an in depth itw if possible.

This post has been edited by joebeast: Dec 1 2009, 07:08 AM

[tezzajw]

As there was other 757's who crashed that day, can't we match datas from different black boxes to see if the door of every planes where monitored ?

You could, but it would be pointless.

Focus your attention entirely upon what the systems were recording on the alleged Flight AA77. Use the data that's been provided for that plane and pick it apart.

[rob balsamo]

Thanks for you quick reply.

I would like to get in touch with the admin of this site for an in depth itw if possible.

joe, email me at pilots(at)pilotsfor911truth.org and we'll chat.

Also, i edited my post above to add more information for you to use.

Rob

[Jefferson]

Hi, been reading this topic with great interest but I agree caution must be used. I know of frustration by too many questions but I have some, sorry.

Does the switch on the door make light lit up for pilot and make light outside cockpit door dim to stop cockpit flooded by light? If there is a problem with switch not working it would be definite noticed by the crew if they open door and no usual lighting effect happens? Is it same switch for data recorder and can this rule out fault in switch because it would be fixed before next flight never mind 11 flights?

Good Luck.

[Guest_Turbofan_*]

I am in the process of reseraching this at the moment. From what I know:

Does the switch on the door make light lit up for pilot and make light outside cockpit door dim to stop cockpit flooded by light?

Yes, the relay seems to control the lighting at the Flight Deck Step and Pilot's panel indicators.

If there is a problem with switch not working it would be definite noticed by the crew if they open door and no usual lighting effect happens?

Yes, a fault would be noticed.

Is it same switch for data recorder and can this rule out fault in switch because it would be fixed before next flight never mind 11 flights?

I don't believe this is the same switch for the Flight Data Recorder. The documentation shows a link to the EICAS according to the port assignments.
We are still trying to determine where the signal is linked from the door circuit. In any case, a faulty switch shows an OPEN door, and the lights
would illuminate on the Pilot's control panel, and also the associated lamps for the step.

Once I receive confirmation on this, we will update the thread...so hang tight!

[Jefferson]

I do not believe in faulty switch but unsure all failure modes will lead to "a faulty switch shows an OPEN door"

[Obwon]

Hi All!

I think Rob has hit the nail on the head iin his No. 138.

The GL claim is that the FDR was not rigged to record the Flight Deck Door Open/Closed and thus did not record it.

However, the FDR data indicates that it was rigged to record that item, and, in fact, did record it as "Closed". If you ask me that stops the argument right there without having to plumb the depths of whether it was required to be updated or in fact updated.

Seconded, they've established for me, satisfactorily that:
The parameter was installed!
There wouldn't be a data block reserved for it, without an operational sensor and/or without sufficient documentation, notes, cautions, warnings etc., to alert subsequent data users of any and all anomalies to be expected "for cause".
Things just aren't done that way in this realm.

Thus I can dismiss claims that this plane wasn't not recording the cockpit doors states.

I'm posting prematurely (my consideration) since I haven't yet read to the end of this thread.

The only question now remaining for me personally is: "40 hours of door closed readings."

Some of that has been answered by a post that reasonably explains that in the course of 12 flights that took place in this time frame, as much as 12 hours can be accounted for by taxiing from runway to gate or vice versa, by allowing 30 minutes per on average. I'll add to that, flight delays that might have occurred over that period. So someone might check that as well.

Also, it's been noted, pretty near the start, that the data recording does not start until the engines are started. If there are environmental protocols in place at the airports, engines might not be started and running, as one might assume they would ordinarily.

In any event, to the casual observer, it seems plausible that over several hours, whether in flight or not, an open state for the cockpit door is expected to be recorded. If not, then an explanation is required. So that's what I'll be looking for from here on.

[Craig Ranke CIT]

In any event, to the casual observer, it seems plausible that over several hours, whether in flight or not, an open state for the cockpit door is expected to be recorded. If not, then an explanation is required. So that's what I'll be looking for from here on.

They seem to like to meticulously dodge that part just as they have the fatally anomalous values for altitude and everything else in THEIR data.

Amazingly enough, alleged researcher Warren Stutt has been conspicuously silent about this as well even though I see him lurking the thread at this very moment.

Cat got your tongue Warren?

[Craig Ranke CIT]

Boy he sure disappeared fast!

[JFK]

Boy he sure disappeared fast!

Perhaps he is looking at the data ? (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/dunno.gif)

[Aldo Marquis CIT]

Hi, been reading this topic with great interest but I agree caution must be used. I know of frustration by too many questions but I have some, sorry.

Does the switch on the door make light lit up for pilot and make light outside cockpit door dim to stop cockpit flooded by light? If there is a problem with switch not working it would be definite noticed by the crew if they open door and no usual lighting effect happens? Is it same switch for data recorder and can this rule out fault in switch because it would be fixed before next flight never mind 11 flights?

Good Luck.

Hi Jefferson,

Remember this about the FDR data:

The facts are

- the FDR shows too high to hit the pentagon
- Shows too great a descent for the virtually level flight path seen in the Pentagon Parking Cam video
- Shows the door closed for the Hijacked flight.
- The NTSB/FBI refuse to comment

The ones in bold should tell you that there is more than likely a serious problem with the doors showing closed.

[Jefferson]

"The NTSB/FBI refuse to comment"

Is that unusual?

[wstutt]

Flight 93 is also a different sample rate, word structure, etc. If I recall off the top, only 128 words per second
(which is half of Flight 77).

Not nearly as many parameters recorded for that flight. Don't let anyone make that parallel in a debate, it
is dead wrong.

Actually the FDR on UAL93 recorded 64 word subframes, so that is one quarter of the size of the 256 word subframes recorded by the FDR on AAL77.

Warren.

[onesliceshort]

I seem to remember also the conversation (sry can´t find the link at the mo) between Rob and WStutt
where ROB was the one who brought the Flightdeck door anomaly in the FDR data to HIS attention.
Just in case anybody was under the illusion that Warren brought this info ´to light´.
There have been a number of quotes from ´detractors´ which genuinely interested individuals (both new
and old forum members here) have raised during this thread which have been debunked.
WStutt has been watching this thread EVERY day and failed to leave ONE post , that I am aware of, to
confirm that what is being spun as fact on other sites are lies or incorrect at best.
It´s your program that has stirred this hornet´s nest Warren. The least you can do is confirm or deny
what people are claiming.
If you are indeed in touch with core members here on a private level then I apologise.
If you are an ´unbiased´ sincere researcher, let a few people here ´pick your brains´
After seeing the link Craig gave I believe you´ve been hanging around ´the other site´ too long.
Keith Wheelhouse?? Looks like someone has been following Caustic Logic´s debunked threads.
Go over to CIT´s forums and look at some REAL research on eyewitness testimony.

Peace.

[onesliceshort]

Hello!
LOL