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Old Ice Melts, New Ice Forms

Sanders
post Apr 16 2008, 02:25 PM
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Not sure where to put this - when in doubt, stick it in the Lobby !!!

Read this ...

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?con...va&aid=8668

QUOTE
On March 18 the scientists said they believe that the increased area of sea ice this winter is due to recent weather conditions, while the decline in perennial ice reflects the longer-term warming climate trend and is a result of increased melting during summer and greater movement of the older ice out of the Arctic.

Perennial sea ice is the long-lived, year-round layer of ice that remains even when the surrounding short-lived seasonal sea ice melts away in summer to its minimum extent. It is this perennial sea ice, left over from the summer melt period, that has been rapidly declining from year to year, and that has gained the attention and research focus of scientists. According to NASA-processed microwave data, whereas perennial ice used to cover 50-60 percent of the Arctic, this year it covers less than 30 percent. Very old ice that remains in the Arctic for at least six years comprised over 20 percent of the Arctic area in the mid to late 1980s, but this winter it decreased to just six percent...


Ice is ice! Perennial, seasonal, ... huh? Ice is WATER - it freezes at 32 degrees. It's either frozen or melted. What is this bogus bizarre mind-twisting logic behind the spin in this article!?!?

Sorry, I just had to spew. The planet's temperature has been stable for the last few years and this last winter was quite cold, but we should ignore that, they are still trying to pawn this global warming crap, trying to differentiate ICE (frozen water) into "perennial", and "seasonal".

Cummon, it's just ice.
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Omega892R09
post Apr 16 2008, 05:02 PM
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QUOTE (Sanders @ Apr 14 2008, 04:25 PM) *
Ice is ice! Perennial, seasonal, ... huh? Ice is WATER - it freezes at 32 degrees. It's either frozen or melted. What is this bogus bizarre mind-twisting logic behind the spin in this article!?!?

Nothing bogus about that, students of WW2 will understand why.

WW2 arctic convoys could only get through to Archangel in summer months for the port was frozen during winter and so the less satisfactory, from mainland geography and infrastructure aspects, port of Murmansk was used, for awhile anyway.

However summer months entailed heavy losses due to near 24 hours of daylight enabling Luftwaffe and U-Boat attacks for longer periods making the voyage almost suicidal. Summer convoys were halted for some time due to losses causing Joe Stalin to become enraged by apparent lack of support.
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Bruce Sinclair
post Apr 16 2008, 05:52 PM
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I used to fly ice patrol in the Beaufort Sea for 3 summers. I can assure you there is a huge difference between first year ice and multi-year ice. The longer the salt water ice remains frozen, the more salt that leaches out of the ice, so the multi-year ice becomes fresh water ice and is much harder. It even looks quite different if you have spend hours and hours at 400 feet staring at ice.

Regards...

P.S. Apparently, the arctic ice cap (multi-year ice) lost 1,000,000 square kilometres last summer. This is a huge and unprescedented change.

A quote from this URL: http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007...6/climatechange

"According to scientists led by Leif Toudal Pedersen of the Danish National Space Centre, Arctic ice this summer dropped to around 3 million square kilometres, a decrease of 1 million square kilometres on last year's coverage. Given that for the past 10 years Arctic ice has been disappearing at an average annual rate of only 100,000 square kilometres, this year's reduction is 'extreme', said Pedersen."
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Nunyabiz
post Apr 16 2008, 09:16 PM
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Sorry Sanders but unless I am misinterpreting, you are dead wrong on Global Warming.
I would suggest pulling your head outa ExxonMobiles arse and take a breath of fresh air then start listening to that 99% of all Climatologist that say humans have an effect on Global warming.
that tiny fraction of 1% saying otherwise have BILLIONS of oil $$ backing them is the only reason they "appear" to have even remotely an equal voice.
Its basically the same as Evolution Vs Creationism.
There are about 400 of these creationist lunatics on the whole planet pretending to be Biologist meanwhile there are 100s of 1000s of degreed & accredited Biologist that know Evolution is as close to absolute fact as Science is able to achieve.
There is no "controversy" yet these nut bags are given WAY too much voice & credence for such a tiny band of delusional psychotics.
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Sanders
post Apr 16 2008, 11:06 PM
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Omega & Bruce, thanks for explaining that thumbsup.gif
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Timothy Osman
post Apr 17 2008, 12:16 AM
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QUOTE
Omega & Bruce, thanks for explaining that
laughing1.gif

Oh well Antarctica looks really boring. It's obvious that Penguins look after their environment, unlike those nasty Polar Bears.

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IM....area.south.jpg
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André
post Apr 17 2008, 12:32 AM
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The Mystery of Global Warming's Missing Heat

Some 3,000 scientific robots that are plying the ocean have sent home a puzzling message. These diving instruments suggest that the oceans have not warmed up at all over the past four or five years. That could mean global warming has taken a breather. Or it could mean scientists aren't quite understanding what their robots are telling them.

more... http://www.npr.org
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mrodway
post Apr 17 2008, 01:05 AM
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Even though I agree with Nunyabiz on the importance of Climate Change, I really don't think it is fair to compare the debate to "Evolution Vs Creationism".

Evolution is a well-proven, universally accepted scientific theory, Creation is a fairytale.

Not all scientific theories are equally accepted by those working in the field. For example practically all biologists accept Evolution, but not all physicists accept the Big Bang Theory. The majority that do, know that it needs some work.

I see Climate Change being more in the “Big Bang” category than the evolution category.
The big difference is that if we are wrong about the big bang – probably no harm done.
But if we are wrong about Global Warming?

It is not good if a scientist has to take “sides”

I think we need to support our scientists and let them get on with their work without interference from Religion, Politics, Business and the Media.
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Nunyabiz
post Apr 17 2008, 12:09 PM
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True Global Warming is not quite as 100% irrefutable as Evolution, however it is FAR more understood & accepted in the Scientific community than what the Oil Company shills are trying to lead people to believe.

What I was trying to show is the correlation between how they are "marketed".

For instance, we have about 400 Creationist lunatics that somehow managed to attain a Biology degree that are spewing absolute BS and because of religious insanity at least 50% of the American public believes it. These 400 Delusional Psychotics are able to cause great harm.

We have far LESS than 400 paid shills for oil companies spewing complete BS but because they are well connected and have Billions of $$ backing them they can get this absurd propaganda injected into the populace in ways and places that make the most impact. The same situation, very few people telling lies able to cause great harm.

It is basically the same phenomena we are dealing with concerning the facts about 9/11.

At least 40% of the American public know that 9/11 was an inside job, probably far higher percentage of the world population knows, yet all we hear on Mainstream media is exactly the opposite. The propagandist media tries to make 9/11 truth look like a tiny fraction of the population and try desperately to place us in the same category as Holocaust & Moon landing deniers. Just a few 1000 nuts.

In fact we represent about 130 Million people in just the USA alone and that is with a total media blackout of all truthful information and a huge propaganda campaign against us.

I cringe when I see 9/11 truthers fall for the anti-Global Warming propaganda, and the Holocaust & Moon landing deniers amongst us. I feel 9/11 truth people should know better.
Same when I see Atheist that fall for the Official Government Conspiracy Theory that just makes me sick, the majority of Atheist have shown they are capable of critical thinking & reasoning based on logic so to me they have absolutely ZERO excuse for falling for the OCT when it clearly is impossible in more ways than one.

Anyway that is my reasoning for that comparison, Global Warming may not be as 100% proven as Evolution is YET but the "marketing" of the Anti-GW side is about the same as the Creationist. The only difference is that the Creationist actually "believe" the BS they are spewing because they are insane, the oil companies know better they don't believe a word of it they are just interested in the bottom line so as soon as they make a few more Trillion off of what oil is left and get all geared up for whatever energy source is next they will stop the propaganda. They know its only a matter of time anyway before it becomes so obvious that even faux opinion will be forced to report it.
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Sanders
post Apr 17 2008, 12:24 PM
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You think we really landed on the moon ?!?

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a16/a16v_1491136.mpg

Lies, lies, lies. Global Warming, whether real or not, is simply an excuse to create more international regulation.
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Omega892R09
post Apr 17 2008, 12:32 PM
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QUOTE (mrodway @ Apr 15 2008, 04:05 AM) *
I think we need to support our scientists and let them get on with their work without interference from Religion, Politics, Business and the Media.

In other words don’t do as Bush does, ‘…come to conclusions and create his facts to support them.’

Another gem from one of Jack Huberman's books either 'The Bush Hater's Handbook' or 'Bushit', not sure which.

I may, if allowed, create a thread to post nuggets from these, and other books, to remind folks just why GW is the 'Worst president for 100 years' and a malignanet governor of Texas too where according to ayeshahaqqiqa on this thread at Democratic Underground and with reference to a quote by Molly Ivens (see below):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...ress=105x351469

QUOTE
Thursday on NPR, she called Bush a Texan, and implied that Texans are all very pro big business. My husband is a sixth generation Texan, and he takes such statements very seriously. None of his family or friends are pro big business, and they all hate "that carpetbagger", their name for the Shrub. I have yet to meet a Texan who says Bush is anyting else.


Looking for the quote WRT Gen. Albert Stubblebine's role in the GW and National Air Guard record thing (which I now think was in Al Frankens', 'Lies and the Lying Liers That Tell Them' another of my books out on loan) I pulled out a number of interesting books including 'Bushwhacked : Life in George W. Bush's America' by Molly Ivens and Lou Dubose.

I searched on P4T under Bushwhacked and found this excellent thread

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....;hl=Bushwhacked

started by a female trucker with user name batmanchester who has not posted for a while AFAICS.

I hope the mod’s don't mind resurrection of this thread for I believe her words still highly relevant.
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Nunyabiz
post Apr 17 2008, 12:45 PM
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QUOTE (Sanders @ Apr 15 2008, 03:24 PM) *
You think we really landed on the moon ?!?

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a16/a16v_1491136.mpg

Lies, lies, lies. Global Warming, whether real or not, is simply an excuse to create more international regulation.



I can only feel embarrassed for you is all I can say.

http://www.braeunig.us/space/hoax.htm
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Sanders
post Apr 17 2008, 06:13 PM
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Whah?

Are you saying that you can watch that clip, an mpeg with a nasa.gov address, a clip of a guy obviously teetering and tottering at the end of a wire, and you are embarassed for ME ? Dude, no need to be.

I'm gonna throw this thread, a thread I needn't have ever started probably there are so many like it (sorry folks) ... in the Alt theories forum.
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Quest
post Apr 17 2008, 07:15 PM
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QUOTE (Nunyabiz @ Apr 17 2008, 04:09 PM) *
The propagandist media tries to make 9/11 truth look like a tiny fraction of the population and try desperately to place us in the same category as Holocaust & Moon landing deniers. Just a few 1000 nuts.

I cringe when I see 9/11 truthers fall for the anti-Global Warming propaganda, and the Holocaust & Moon landing deniers amongst us. I feel 9/11 truth people should know better.


Interesting. That's from a page right outta the perps book; equating legit reasearch into a hoax to another hoax. Like a page right from Goebel's textbook. In fact, isn't that what AL "Big Oil" Gore just did to us, comparing those that question global-warming to "moon hoax deniers? Who but the perps use terms like that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSh1WuN_dnc

I'm just sayin .... whistle.gif

This post has been edited by Quest: Apr 17 2008, 07:17 PM
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Nunyabiz
post Apr 17 2008, 07:42 PM
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You people are truly embarrassing and you are right this thread needs to be in the junk pile.
I see no need to continue with such lunacy.

This post has been edited by Nunyabiz: Apr 17 2008, 07:44 PM
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Timothy Osman
post Apr 17 2008, 11:23 PM
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QUOTE (Quest @ Apr 17 2008, 11:15 PM) *
Interesting. That's from a page right outta the perps book; equating legit reasearch into a hoax to another hoax. Like a page right from Goebel's textbook. In fact, isn't that what AL "Big Oil" Gore just did to us, comparing those that question global-warming to "moon hoax deniers? Who but the perps use terms like that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSh1WuN_dnc

I'm just sayin .... whistle.gif


Newton called it re-association.

QUOTE
re-association.

the lumping in of one fringe idea with ALL fringe ideas. like, if you think the government ever lied about anything, you also believe aliens built the pyramids, and you were joan of arc in a past life.

i find it wonderfully amazing how, if you have a nice word that sums up a complex idea, it can be used as 'ammo' in a debate.

're-association' is like a hollow tip.


QUOTE
I can only feel embarrassed for you is all I can say


As Spock would say, Interesting.
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KP50
post Apr 17 2008, 11:41 PM
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QUOTE (Timothy Osman @ Apr 18 2008, 03:23 PM) *
Newton called it re-association.

As Spock would say, Interesting.


Is that Mr or Dr Spock?

Since my descent down the rabbit hole, all I presume is that I don't really know anything. Thus on the moon landings, I haven't decided either way due to not spending time looking into it. What I have learnt is to have an open mind and not immediately dismiss any theories purely because they might sound ridiculous. If 9/11 doesn't teach you that, then I suspect you will never learn.
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André
post Apr 18 2008, 02:38 AM
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'Nunyabiz'
"I can only feel embarrassed for you is all I can say."

Nunyabiz, while you may be embarrassed, I am truly amazed that you could ever find your way to 911 truth ! rolleyes.gif

This post has been edited by André: Apr 18 2008, 02:40 AM
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mrodway
post Apr 18 2008, 03:28 AM
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QUOTE (Nunyabiz @ Apr 15 2008, 02:45 PM) *
I can only feel embarrassed for you is all I can say.

http://www.braeunig.us/space/hoax.htm

Thanks for the link, I hadn't known about FOX pushing the Moon Landing Hoax 7 months before 9/11!

Makes sense though.

This post has been edited by mrodway: Apr 18 2008, 03:31 AM
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painter
post Apr 18 2008, 05:37 AM
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QUOTE (Sanders @ Apr 17 2008, 03:13 PM) *
. . .
I'm gonna throw this thread, a thread I needn't have ever started probably there are so many like it (sorry folks) ... in the Alt theories forum.


Jeeze -- what is going on in here, folks?

It just seems to me that sometimes we have to agree to disagree about certain things. We're all entitled to our opinions -- and no doubt some of them are wrong. Is it possible to keep it together enough to not loose sight of what it is we DO agree on and how important it is?

I don't know about the moon landing stuff one way or the other but I'll tell you something. I knew 9/11 was an inside job from the moment I turned on the TV and began watching what had been and still was going on (in California the towers were already gone before I even knew anything was happening). I was very interested in the first 9/11 truth video, Painful Deceptions, by Eric Hufschmid. I had a lot of mixed feelings about it, not because I believed the official story, I didn't but the way it was put together and presented seemed "weird" to me. It was 'quirky', almost humorous -- almost as if it was designed to not be taken exactly seriously. Still, within it, there was some good, and truly educational information. I learned about the melting temperature of steel, about the significance of a controlled fire and the need for oxygen in an incendiary (among other things I'd never thought about before in my life). Still, when I learned that Hufshmid was a Moon Landing 'denier', I was shocked. As Nunya says, "embarrassed."

Now, for me, this wasn't about whether or not the Moon landings actually happened or were an elaborate hoax. I hadn't ever given it much thought but, upon thinking about it a little bit, I decided it didn't really matter in and of itself. What mattered was that on one hand we had a recent history event, 9/11, for which there is ample evidence of it being something quite different than what our government and media were telling us and, on the other, something that didn't have the same 'tangibility' of evidence about it. It was at that point that I became suspicious of Hufschmid. I've remained so ever since and I think I'm right to be so, whatever the truth of the Moon Landing is.

The problem I had with it is that I wasn't coming at the 9/11 issue from a matter of "belief" -- but an already established pattern of observation and knowledge that I'd begun exploring years before 9/11 happened. In fact, I'd reasoned to myself that if what I was observing was accurate, then it followed that in the near future a "terrorist" event was going to have to occur. I was, in a very general way, able to predict what was coming next.

I don't claim to know what's coming next now. Lord knows, where we are is plenty 'scary' enough on lots of levels and in lots of ways. People are restless, uneasy, fearful, angry -- all completely understandable given the situation. The way I look at it, whether or not we ever walked on the moon or whether or not global warming is real is kind of secondary. I don't mean to say these things are unimportant or that they have no bearing on where we are and where we're headed -- I'm just trying to keep some kind of perspective.

I'm not sure where I'm headed with this. Maybe I just shouldn't say anything, I don't know. What I do know is that our opposition are masters at playing both ends off the middle and they've been at this a lot longer than we have. "Mind fields" everywhere.
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