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New Fdr Analysis By Frank Legge - Discussion, What do you think?

Decalagon
post Jan 10 2011, 08:32 AM
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http://journalof911studies.com/volume/2010...ltimeter_92.pdf

I'm reading the document and I am still very doubtful about what it says. Someone can give me some information about that?
Thank you.
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rob balsamo
post Jan 19 2011, 03:13 AM
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I was a bit bored tonight and went over to Blogger to see how they're making out without any real experts, sure enough, Legge continues to make a fool of himself.

Frank says...

"Pilots do not depend on the pressure altimeter as they approach the runway...... Instrument pilots use radio height."


Gotta love it... a Chemist trying to tell a Certified Flight Instructor, Instrument Instructor and Multiengine Instructor, how approaches are flown. I guess all those students i had which passed their Check rides (many now flying for airlines themselves), were taught completely wrong information and should have instead listened to a Chemist.

I then sent this email to Frank, Kevin Ryan and Steven Jones.

QUOTE
Frank,

A Radio Altimeter isnt even required for Instrument Flight. Many planes which are IFR Certified do not have a Radio Altimeter.

If your "altitude divergence" was correct, planes would be plowing into the runway daily on foggy approaches. The Baro Altimeter is required, it is the Primary altimeter for use with Category I ILS Instrument approaches, and is used daily. Radio Altimeters are not used on Category I ILS. They can't be, because they arent accurate, especially with rolling terrain or terrain with building, trees, or other objects along the approach.

You may want to stop telling others how aircraft are flown and let the real pilots handle it before you look more a fool.

Please find the required equipment below for Instrument Flight from the FAR's. Please pay particular attention to number 5. Note, the Baro altimeter is required, a Radio Altimeter not. And you call your paper "peer-reviewed"? Now that's laughable.

The reason you are seeing an "altitude divergence" is because the Radio Altimeter is not measuring from the ground. That was your first major error. And if you had your paper actually "peer-reviewed" by a real pilot, they would have told you that Radio Height does not guarantee your height above ground.

Good luck!

Subpart C—Equipment, Instrument, and Certificate Requirements

(d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required:

(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section, and, for night flight, instruments and equipment specified in paragraph of this section.

(2) Two-way radio communication and navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown.

(3) Gyroscopic rate-of-turn indicator, except on the following aircraft:

(i) Airplanes with a third attitude instrument system usable through flight attitudes of 360 degrees of pitch and roll and installed in accordance with the instrument requirements prescribed in 121.305(j) of this chapter; and

(4) Slip-skid indicator.

(5) Sensitive altimeter adjustable for barometric pressure.

(6) A clock displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation.

(7) Generator or alternator of adequate capacity.

(8) Gyroscopic pitch and bank indicator (artificial horizon).

(9) Gyroscopic direction indicator (directional gyro or equivalent).



Frank may also want to look at an actual ILS Approach plate.

Here is one from Dulles.

This is the Profile View and Minimums Section of the approach plate. It tells you the altitude you're allowed to descend to before either continuing for landing, or breaking off for a missed approach. You must see at least the "rabbit"(ALSF) to continue another 100 feet below these minimums, you must have the runway environment in sight to land (Full approach lights, runway lights... etc).



(here is the full approach plate - ILS RWY 01R IAD)

Look at S-ILS 1R in the left margin.

These are the minimums for a Straight in approach to ILS Runway 1 Right at Dulles.

You'll see a 512/18 followed by a 200 then (200 - 1/2)

The 512 is your "minimums". This is directly referenced from your primary altimeter, the Barometric altimeter and is your height above sea level at Minimums. The 18 means forward visibility in hundreds. 1800 feet is required visibility for Airliners (Part 121/135) to shoot the approach, but not for private/corporate aircraft.. .etc, this is a little over 1/4 mile in fog. This is based on RVR measurements from equipment on the side of the runway (Runway Visual Range). The 200 means this is your height above the Touch Down Zone Elevation (TDZE) at 512 feet MSL (note, this is NOT your height above the ground you are flying over, at that point on the approach). The (200 - 1/2) means it is a standard 200 and 1/2 Category 1 ILS. The Airport could be actually calling "Zero/Zero" in fog (Zero ceiling, Zero visibility) and Corporate Aircraft (Part 91) can shoot the approach to go down and take a "look-see". If they dont see the lights at "Minimums" (512 MSL), they must execute a missed approach.

All altitudes and callouts are referenced from your "Baro Altimeter" during the approach.... (i call it a Baro altimeter here for the layman, it's really referred to as your Primary Altimeter, or just plainly "The Altimeter").

When you get down to 512 MSL, if you see the approach lights, you can continue another 100 feet. If you go down another 100 feet (now 412 MSL... 100 TDZE) and dont see the runway environment, you must execute a missed approach.

If Legge was correct with his "altitude divergence" of more than 80+ feet, up to an error of almost 124 feet, not only would pilots be busting minimums daily... but worse, there would be many crashes. Pilots on approaches in low visibility would be calling "minimums" at 512 feet thinking they were 200 feet above the runway TDZE, but they would really be as low as 120-80 feet above the runway (Minimums Busted, Expect a call from the FAA). If they saw some approach lights, they would continue down another 100 feet hoping to see the runway. Again, all this is based on referencing the Primary Altimeter, the "Baro Altimeter". They would continue down another 100 feet thinking they were 200 feet above the runway, but according to Legge, they would really only be 120-80 feet above the runway. If the visibility were low enough, they would slam into the runway before they even called "Missed Approach" thinking they were almost 100 feet higher.

Now, this is for a Cat I ILS. Cat II makes it worse. Most Cat II approaches do reference the RA when you get that low and there are certain requirements when that low, specifically a runway clearway zone so you know for a fact that the RA is measuring from nothing but grass (and not trees, buildings, etc...), but RA is not required for a Cat II under Part 91. If shooting a Cat II with referencing the Primary Altimeter only, pilots would be calling "minimums" at almost 50-100 feet below the pavement, if Legge were correct.

The only way to tell what the RA is measuring from (a building, trees... other objects...) is to check it against your Primary Altimeter as you have a solid reference for this height, which is from sea level. Final MSL height in the "extra" data Warren decoded shows 174' MSL (above sea level), RA shows 4'. This can only mean the RA was bouncing off an object higher than ground level and the MSL height shows too high to hit the Pentagon.

End of story.
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Posts in this topic
- Decalagon   New Fdr Analysis By Frank Legge - Discussion   Jan 10 2011, 08:32 AM
- - Paul   QUOTE (Decalagon @ Jan 10 2011, 11:02 PM)...   Jan 10 2011, 09:20 AM
|- - rob balsamo   QUOTE (Paul @ Jan 10 2011, 08:20 AM) Mayb...   Jan 10 2011, 09:38 AM
|- - Paul   QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Jan 10 2011, 11:08 P...   Jan 10 2011, 09:59 AM
|- - Aldo Marquis CIT   QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Jan 10 2011, 02:38 P...   Jan 10 2011, 09:07 PM
|- - wstutt   QUOTE (Aldo Marquis CIT @ Jan 16 2011, 02...   Jan 25 2011, 09:59 AM
|- - tumetuestumefaisdubien   QUOTE (wstutt @ Jan 25 2011, 02:59 AM) Th...   Jan 26 2011, 12:15 AM
- - rob balsamo   The most apparent error is that they assume Radio ...   Jan 10 2011, 09:24 AM
|- - Paul   QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Jan 10 2011, 11:54 P...   Jan 10 2011, 09:35 AM
|- - rob balsamo   QUOTE (Paul @ Jan 10 2011, 08:35 AM) Just...   Jan 10 2011, 09:42 AM
|- - Paul   QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Jan 10 2011, 11:12 P...   Jan 10 2011, 10:03 AM
- - rob balsamo   I did a bit more reading around... even known ...   Jan 10 2011, 10:01 AM
- - SanderO   The problem is not that this is bogus research, b...   Jan 10 2011, 10:11 AM
- - rob balsamo   You raise a good point SanderO. Being that i read...   Jan 10 2011, 10:57 AM
|- - Decalagon   Thanks at all for the answers, but I'd like to...   Jan 10 2011, 01:54 PM
|- - rob balsamo   QUOTE (Decalagon @ Jan 10 2011, 12:54 PM)...   Jan 10 2011, 02:38 PM
||- - Decalagon   QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Jan 10 2011, 01:38 P...   Jan 10 2011, 03:12 PM
|- - Craig Ranke CIT   QUOTE (Decalagon @ Jan 10 2011, 05:54 PM)...   Jan 10 2011, 11:03 PM
- - Ligon   Over at Blogger Steven Jones, co-editor of The Jou...   Jan 10 2011, 03:17 PM
|- - rob balsamo   QUOTE (Ligon @ Jan 10 2011, 02:17 PM) Rea...   Jan 10 2011, 03:22 PM
||- - Decalagon   QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Jan 10 2011, 02:22 P...   Jan 10 2011, 08:00 PM
||- - rob balsamo   QUOTE (Decalagon @ Jan 10 2011, 07:00 PM)...   Jan 10 2011, 09:22 PM
|- - DoYouEverWonder   QUOTE (Ligon @ Jan 10 2011, 02:17 PM) Ove...   Jan 10 2011, 04:24 PM
|- - Paul   QUOTE (Ligon @ Jan 11 2011, 04:47 AM) Ove...   Jan 12 2011, 01:41 AM
- - DoYouEverWonder   QUOTE I bet you right now Mr Frank Legge is probab...   Jan 10 2011, 04:27 PM
- - SanderO   The peer review cited in 9/11 research is pretty p...   Jan 10 2011, 04:37 PM
- - Aldo Marquis CIT   It appears all the fake truth sites are deleting c...   Jan 10 2011, 10:54 PM
- - KP50   Legge works hard to link the SoC flightpath to the...   Jan 11 2011, 12:02 AM
- - onesliceshort   QUOTE CIT claims that their witnesses to north pat...   Jan 11 2011, 12:36 AM
|- - Decalagon   QUOTE If Legge were right, We would have plowed in...   Jan 11 2011, 08:39 AM
- - tnemelckram   Hi All! Here's three posts saying what ...   Jan 15 2011, 07:10 PM
|- - onesliceshort   QUOTE (tnemelckram @ Jan 16 2011, 12:10 A...   Jan 16 2011, 10:43 AM
- - SanderO   While peer review is a sound approach to having qu...   Jan 16 2011, 11:15 AM
- - SwingDangler   Good day all. Nice job Rob on the Jesse show. I...   Jan 18 2011, 09:15 AM
- - rob balsamo   Hi SD, good to see ya! Feel free to send an i...   Jan 18 2011, 10:58 AM
- - rob balsamo   I was a bit bored tonight and went over to Blogger...   Jan 19 2011, 03:13 AM
- - SwingDangler   Long time no chat, gents. As an associate member o...   Jan 19 2011, 11:14 AM
- - rob balsamo   It appears Frank made some edits to that post afte...   Jan 19 2011, 11:30 AM
|- - SwingDangler   QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Jan 17 2011, 02:30 P...   Jan 19 2011, 03:14 PM
|- - rob balsamo   QUOTE (SwingDangler @ Jan 19 2011, 02:14 ...   Jan 19 2011, 04:06 PM
- - onesliceshort   QUOTE That's right grasshopper... Some...   Jan 19 2011, 04:34 PM
|- - rob balsamo   QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Jan 19 2011, 03:34...   Jan 19 2011, 04:43 PM
- - rob balsamo   I briefly went over to Blogger today to see if the...   Jan 20 2011, 12:40 PM
|- - 9elevened   one of Legge's latest over at 911 blogger is t...   Jan 31 2011, 07:15 PM
|- - rob balsamo   QUOTE (9elevened @ Jan 31 2011, 06:15 PM)...   Jan 31 2011, 07:29 PM
- - SwingDangler   Thanks, Rob. His latest logic... QUOTE After quot...   Jan 20 2011, 02:25 PM
|- - Aldo Marquis CIT   QUOTE (SwingDangler @ Jan 20 2011, 07:25 ...   Jan 20 2011, 04:40 PM
|- - SwingDangler   QUOTE (Aldo Marquis CIT @ Jan 18 2011, 07...   Jan 21 2011, 02:46 PM
- - rob balsamo   lol.... I see Legge is claiming Steven Jones tried...   Jan 20 2011, 03:16 PM
- - rob balsamo   New article just published in part as a response t...   Jan 20 2011, 05:08 PM
- - SwingDangler   Hey where do I get my official "Banned From 9...   Jan 21 2011, 02:43 PM
|- - rob balsamo   QUOTE (SwingDangler @ Jan 21 2011, 01:43 ...   Jan 21 2011, 03:46 PM
|- - onesliceshort   QUOTE (SwingDangler @ Jan 21 2011, 07:43 ...   Jan 21 2011, 04:49 PM
- - onesliceshort   Warren, have any of the following been made ...   Jan 25 2011, 10:52 AM
|- - wstutt   QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Jan 30 2011, 03:52...   Jan 25 2011, 09:17 PM
|- - onesliceshort   QUOTE (wstutt @ Jan 26 2011, 02:17 AM) No...   Jan 25 2011, 10:54 PM
||- - wstutt   QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Jan 31 2011, 03:54...   Jan 26 2011, 02:05 AM
||- - onesliceshort   QUOTE (wstutt @ Jan 26 2011, 07:05 AM) OS...   Jan 26 2011, 10:33 AM
||- - rob balsamo   QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Jan 26 2011, 09:33...   Jan 26 2011, 12:04 PM
|||- - rob balsamo   QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Jan 26 2011, 11:04 A...   Jan 27 2011, 04:04 PM
||- - wstutt   OSS, QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Jan 31 2011, 03...   Jan 27 2011, 02:05 PM
||- - onesliceshort   QUOTE (wstutt @ Jan 27 2011, 07:05 PM) OS...   Jan 27 2011, 06:32 PM
||- - rob balsamo   QUOTE (wstutt @ Jan 27 2011, 01:05 PM) Th...   Jan 31 2011, 06:47 PM
|- - tumetuestumefaisdubien   QUOTE (wstutt @ Jan 25 2011, 01:17 PM) No...   Jan 31 2011, 11:51 AM
- - onesliceshort   QUOTE Sorry for intervening into this. But doesn...   Jan 26 2011, 12:31 AM
|- - wstutt   OSS, QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Jan 31 2011, 05...   Jan 26 2011, 02:37 AM
|- - mrodway   QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Jan 24 2011, 03:31...   Jan 30 2011, 09:01 AM
- - albertchampion   frank legge is a paraplegic in a sense. he hasn...   Jan 26 2011, 03:51 AM
- - DoYouEverWonder   QUOTE OSS, That earlier plotted path was from the...   Jan 26 2011, 08:59 AM
|- - wstutt   QUOTE (DoYouEverWonder @ Jan 31 2011, 01...   Jan 27 2011, 01:21 PM
|- - DoYouEverWonder   QUOTE (wstutt @ Jan 27 2011, 12:21 PM) Ex...   Jan 30 2011, 09:44 AM
|- - Atomicbomb   QUOTE (DoYouEverWonder @ Jan 30 2011, 05...   Jan 31 2011, 06:48 AM
|- - rob balsamo   QUOTE (Atomicbomb @ Jan 31 2011, 05:48 AM...   Jan 31 2011, 10:47 AM
- - onesliceshort   From your paper Warren: QUOTE There have, however...   Jan 27 2011, 11:38 AM
|- - wstutt   OSS, I've split this reply up, since I exceed...   Jan 29 2011, 03:20 PM
- - rob balsamo   QUOTE (DoYouEverWonder @ Jan 31 2011, 01...   Jan 27 2011, 02:32 PM
- - onesliceshort   QUOTE (onesliceshort)I'll have to search for F...   Jan 28 2011, 12:01 AM
|- - wstutt   OSS, QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Feb 2 2011, 05...   Jan 30 2011, 11:54 AM
- - rob balsamo   OSS, There are all kinds of problems with the pos...   Jan 28 2011, 02:12 PM
- - onesliceshort   Cheers Rob, I just don't understand how Warre...   Jan 28 2011, 06:17 PM
- - wstutt   Part 2 QUOTE This image relating to the RADAR was...   Jan 29 2011, 03:39 PM
- - 9elevened   As a complete layman bewildered by all the (to me)...   Jan 29 2011, 07:30 PM
|- - paranoia   QUOTE (9elevened @ Jan 29 2011, 06:30 PM)...   Jan 29 2011, 08:24 PM
||- - 9elevened   QUOTE (paranoia @ Jan 29 2011, 07:24 PM) ...   Jan 29 2011, 08:52 PM
|- - rob balsamo   QUOTE (9elevened @ Jan 29 2011, 06:30 PM)...   Jan 29 2011, 09:49 PM
|- - Aldo Marquis CIT   QUOTE (9elevened @ Jan 29 2011, 11:30 PM)...   Jan 30 2011, 01:57 AM
|- - 9elevened   <14+ witnesses at opposing vantage points all d...   Jan 31 2011, 04:10 PM
|- - 9elevened   <and the head comptroller of the time was Dov ...   Jan 31 2011, 06:07 PM
- - paranoia   in response to 9elevened: I also saw in another ...   Jan 30 2011, 05:34 AM
- - onesliceshort   There are more contradictory statements that stand...   Jan 30 2011, 09:47 AM
- - onesliceshort   Hi Warren, I've a breakdown of your responses ...   Jan 31 2011, 09:43 AM
- - rob balsamo   Warren ignores the information which destroys his ...   Jan 31 2011, 10:31 AM


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