Replies To Fransan's Welcome, Split from Welcome Options

[dMz]

[Split from Welcome Forum post #13:
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....&p=10743446]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello and welcome fransan

Hello to everyone. I´ve taken some time to enter the posts because I´ve been doing some reading of the many forums on this site. You know, it has become very big. There are too many threads with too many issues and themes. I think I´ve probably read only about 20 % of the info. and posts.
I think I´ve gotten a pretty good overall picture of things and what I find very disturbing is this:
1.- Shouldn´t the gov. have come forward to provide sufficient explanations to sites like this one?

Yes, absolutely- sometime around Jan. 2002 IMHO.

2.- Would´t that be in their interest also?

Yes, absolutely.

Unless:
a) The gov. is involved. But then that would be contradictory to FDR data and other stuff being available.

FBI, NTSB, FEMA, NSC, and FAA are ALL involved with 6+ years' worth of evidence suppression.

B) The gov. is hiding something.

Yes, absolutely.

Maybe they knew about the atack and decided not to act. That would bring us back to the previous situation. Why would they give some info. they could have easily said was destroyed.
So what is it? Are they playing around with you guys?

Obviously... (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

That´s what it looks like to me at this time.

Damn straight...

[dMz]

You know, it has become very big. There are too many threads with too many issues and themes. I think I´ve probably read only about 20 % of the info. and posts.
I think I´ve gotten a pretty good overall picture of things and what I find very disturbing is this:

Yep, it's only going to get BIGGER as more people research and investigate. Have you ever heard of "exponential growth?" It is a term usually used in biology, but it applies equally well in chemistry in physics, if one is able to "think outside the box."

So looking at <= 20% of data is sufficient to form an "overall picture of things" then? Hmmm....

[JFK]

I think I´ve probably read only about 20 % of the info. and posts.
I think I´ve gotten a pretty good overall picture of things

Ummm, OK... Tell me what you know about what happened at Jekyll Island in 1913. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[fransan]

Ummm, OK... Tell me what you know about what happened at Jekyll Island in 1913. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

NO IDEA. What happened? (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[JFK]

NO IDEA. What happened? (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

The our financial woes began.....

If you've got $25.00 you can buy this 624 page book -
http://shop.wnd.com/store/item.asp?ITEM_ID=1882

Or you can watch this 71 minute synopsis -
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8...55528&hl=en

(IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[grizz]

Welcome to Pilots, fransan. There's a lot to read here, and good for you for digging in. We certainly don't have all the answers. We still don't have all the questions, imo.

In 1913 a few of the biggest bankers in America met secretively on Jekyll Island in North Carolina to devise a plan to coerce the US government into giving them the money concession by passing the Federal Reserve act. Congress has the right to print currency, but they gave it away to the Fed, which creates money and sells it to the US, and also charges interest. In order for the government to pay the interest the unconstitutional Income Tax was instated.

'Money Masters', 'America: Freedom to Fascism', and Part 3 of 'Zeitgeist' are all good films that will inform you about the great conspiracy that has robbed the American people for a century.

Other resources are available in the Federal Reserve section of The Library.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....p;#entry4984677

[Sanders]

As I was typing, both JFK and Oceans Flow posted ... but I'll let fly as is.

JFK is right on the money in referencing to Jekyll Island - that's where it all started to go south - and fransan, you are so right on the money in your frank response - asking.

(By the way JFK, how the heck are you brother!??)

To be precise, what happened at Jekyll Island took place in 1910 I think - a secret meeting between Nelson Aldrich, a ranking senator at the time, a gentleman by the name of Paul Warburg, and representatives of the major banking houses of England, Germany & Europe, and the US. The main parties represented were the most powerful banking interests in the world (at the time and now) the Rothschilds, controllers of the Bank of England with powerful branches in Paris and in the US (National City Bank (later to become Citibank), National City Bank of Cleveland - and I think, by then, the National City Bank of Houston), the Warburgs, head of the oldest bank in Europe (M.M.Warburg & Co. est. 1798) represented by Paul Warburg of course, the Schiffs, long-time allies of the Rothschilds and Warburgs with Jacob Schiff running Kuhn, Loeb & Co., the Morgan house (J.P.Morgan & Co. and their affiliates) and the Rockefellers (Chase). I think that Lehman Bros. was also represented, & Brown Brothers Harriman too, but don't take my word for it, I'm too lazy to double-check. Those are minor players anyway, the main players were (in order of predominance) house of Rothschild, Warburg, Rockefeller, Morgan, Schiff. What they did was hammer out the details of the Federal Reserve act, which was passed in 1913, and changed America forever.

Anyway, the way I (and many people) see it, America won the Revolutionary War in 1783 - and lost it again in 1913. Jekyll Island was where they planned the coup.

My dad has a hard time contemplating the kind of corruption that would be necessary for the US government to have been involved in 9-11. I tried recently to get through to him that the US government has long been appropriated by traitors to the American cause. I almost posted one of my mails to him recently and thought better of it because it was personal, but I think I'll post some excerpts, because it might help explain this.

Forgive the length...
......................

What I really want to get across is, America has been hijacked, little by little, in a very sneaky way that is not at all obvious. Not suddenly on 9/11 either, it's been going on for a very long time. Ron Paul has been aware of it, though he didn't come across the realization (as I did) from looking into 9/11, in fact Paul rejects out of hand that 9/11 was anything other than advertised - rather, Paul figured out what's going on from working in Congress for 20 years. (It's funny that you see so many "9/11 truthers" rallying behind Ron Paul despite the fact that Ron Paul doesn't share their views on the subject - but the reason is is that those people have figured out the underpinning causes and feel Ron Paul is the one candidate who is interested in attacking the problem).

You may still be reading this, you might not. I hesitate to write it - heaven knows, I started writing this letter a dozen times and quit. But I'll feel better if I just blurt it out, and, maybe we'll agree to disagree. if that's the case, I'm fine with it.

You gotta know the history, the real history, of the twentieth century (actually, US history going back to the Revolution for that matter) for it all to make sense. This is not the history taught in schools by the way, by design. It's not my place to presume to talk history to you dad, I know you had a stint a a history teacher - but this, what I'm talking about, is a part of our history that has been kept hidden.

Norman Dodd, who was the staff director of the Reese congressional special committee to investigate tax-exempt foundations (in the 50's), gave an interview before he died. In it, he discussed the Ford, Carnegie and Rockefeller Foundations, and how they conspired to exert influence over US public education and Universities. The goal was to move the country away from the concepts embodied in the Constitution and Declaration of Independence, toward acceptance of "collectivism", i.e. more centralized-government, socialism, regulation and the like. Their first meetings were conducted going back before WWI. Dodd gained permission to review the minutes of many of those early meetings (from administrators who had no idea what might be contained in those minutes), and had an assistant (by the name of Catherine Casey), spend two weeks going over them. She subsequently "lost her mind". Here is a link to the interview, parts 3 and 4. He discusses the part I mention starting around 5 minutes into part 3 and through part 4, if you have 15 minutes to watch it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMVZSsPzaTc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFUygqg57XU

I was always confused when I ran across quotes and passages that stated how the founders, like Adams, Franklin etc., abhorred the idea of a democracy. Franklin allegedly said (I'm paraphrasing), that democracy was two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. I understand now. The founders envisioned, and succesfully created, for a while at least, a Constitutional Republic where the powers of the government were strictly limited and individual rights were emphatically protected. What we have moved to, gradually and willingly, is a country that thinks it's a democracy - where the majority opinion takes precedence and the real "jist" of what the founders tried to implement has been forgotten.

Something else the founders, especially Franklin, Jefferson and Madison were wary about was a central bank. As you probably know, Hamilton, who spoke for the financial interests at the time centered in New York, finally got the central bank he (and they) desired, but only as part of the "Great Compromise" whereby the capitol was to be situated in Virginia, away from the financial centers of New York and Philadelphia (Jefferson was even more adamant about keeping the political and financial centers separate). But Jefferson and Madison and others were not too happy about the bank part of the deal. Jefferson said, "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

Later Madison got rid of the 1st National Bank of the United States, the war of 1812 followed. The bankers tried again with the 2nd National Bank, which Andrew Jackson abolished. By this time, the Bank of England was solidly in the hands of the Rothschild family, and had been since 1815 when Nathan Rothschild, armed with early knowlege of Napoleon's defeat at Waterloo, perpetrated a mass sell-off of stocks and treasury bills in London, which he bought up at pennies on the dollar (or pence on the pound in this case). But after Jackson shut down the 2nd National Bank in the 30's, the Rothschilds forgave another frontal assault to try and set up another US central bank and instead set their sights on gaining influence in US industrial, banking and political sectors. Some of this is supposition, but by the 1860's the Rothschild family (and their European allies) were backing both John D. Rockefeller & Junius Morgan (who had taken over the company of a long-time Rothschild ally George Peabody - and who's son J. P. Morgan would eventually run the largest banking house in the US). Later the railroad baron E. H. Harriman would also benefit from Rothschild loans (through Kuhn, Loeb & Co., which Jacob Schiff would be in control of by then) with which he would be able to take over the Union Pacific Railroad. The Rothschild loans to Rockefeller were made through the National City Bank of Cleveland, also set up by Jacob Schiff, who's parents had actually lived with the Rothschilds in their residence in Frankfurt (where he was born), and who had moved to the US and married into the Loeb family. (Kuhn, Loeb & Co. would later become one of the owning banks of the Fed). Morgan already had an office in London (originally George Peabody's company).

Fast forward 40 years, after the panic of 1907, which is widely accepted to have been Morgan engineered , Teddy Roosevelt created the National Monetary Commission to study the need for a central bank and put Nelson Aldrich in charge of it. I have no solid evidence that Nelson Aldrich was in the pockets of the Rothschilds and the Warburgs , but his daughter Abby married John D. Rockefeller Jr., their son was, of course, Nelson Aldrich Rockefeller, a future vice president. Anyway, Aldrich's commission, not surprisingly, recommended the establishment of a central bank in America.

Forgive me for going back so far, but this is really crucial. G. Edward Griffin wrote a book about how the Federal Reserve came to be, titled "The Creature From Jekyll Island". Jekyll Island being an island resort off the coast of Georgia where Paul Warburg (author of the Federal Reserve act), Nelson Aldrich, and representatives of the big banking houses got together in secret (in 1910 I believe) and worked out the details of what would become the Federal Reserve. The story of how the act came to be signed into law is a little more convoluted, but it involved Teddy Roosevelt's surprise bid under the Bull-Moose party, splitting the Republican vote and allowing Wilson, who would sign the bill, to win the presidency, and, the hammering out and passage of the final bill just before Christmas while most of the opponents of the bill had already left Washington for the holidays. That same year, 1913, the Income Tax act was also passed, giving the government a mechanism to collect the funds to make the interest payments on the money that the Fed would soon be loaning it. (US involvement in two world wars would make sure that the US needed a lot of Fed-created money.)

One can argue all night with people over whether the Federal Reserve is a privately owned entity or not, technically it's a cooperative between the 12 banks of the Fed and the government (a "cartel" might be a better word for it), and the Fed is supposed to return a portion of its profits to the treasury, the way I understand it. But the fact is, the Fed has never been audited, and when they loan money to the government all they do is type numbers into a government account - these days, now that the dollar isn't backed by anything other than the borrower's promise to pay, that money just appears out of thin air, and the Fed makes interest on it. It's the scam of the century - only the Congress is authorized to coin money if you want to follow the constitution, and Congress, if it was going to allow a dollar backed by nothing anyway, could authorize the treasury to print money interest free if it cared to. But, since 1913, the US Congress has allocated that power to private bankers. And, US debt has ballooned ever since - the debt now is truly un-payable, and, through inflation (by inflation I mean it in the true sense of the word, the inflation of the currency...) the dollar is worth around 3 cents of what it was in 1913.

After WWI, the very same people who set up the Fed set up an organization called the Council on Foreign Relations, comprised of like-minded movers and shakers from every walk of life - it's current membership numbers around 4000 people ... lawyers, bankers, industrialists, doctors, media heads, newscasters, film-makers, scholars, and lots of politicians. Nearly every president, vice president, Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense or War since FDR (the first CFR member who was offered up for the presidency) has been a member. Clinton was, Hillary is, Obama is, Rice is, so is Powell, McCain, Cheney, ... Bush isn't but his father was a director. Word has it, if you're not a member of the CFR, or of the Trilateral Commission (a later offshoot of the CFR founded by David Rockefeller and Zbigniew Brzezinski in '73) as Jimmy Carter was, you won't get far in US politics. (Just ask Ron Paul.)

Admiral Chester Ward, former Judge Advocate General of the U.S. Navy said this about the CFR, of which he was a once member of:
“Once the ruling members of the CFR have decided that the U.S. Government should adopt a particular policy, the very substantial research facilities of (the) CFR are put to work to develop arguments, intellectual and emotional, to support the new policy, and to confound and discredit, intellectually and politically, any opposition.”

The reason d'etre of the Council on Foreign Relations was/is to influence US policy by keeping like-thinking members in key office positions, to provide advice and arguments for favored policy changes, to influence the media to their collective advantage, and, most importantly, to make sure that leaders in government never get wise and revoke the Federal Reserve's charter (as Andrew Jackson did the 2nd National Bank).

In the 30's FDR, from a prominent banking family, an early CFR member as I said, and a cousin of Teddy Roosevelt by the way, bought up the nation's gold. After WWII three prominent CFR members, James Forestall, George Kennan and Allen Dulles drafted the plans and lobbied congress for the National Security Act of 1947, by which the CIA was formed. The CIA had/has two functions - to gather intelligence, and to step in overseas where US diplomacy failed and where foreign governments refused to play ball with "connected" US businesses. The CIA got right to work, overthrowing president Mossadegh in Iran, who was trying to nationalize the oil fields there, installing the Shah in his place in 1953. Kermit Roosevelt, another cousin of FDR's, led the coup. Next they got rid of president Arbenz in Guatemala, who was trying to institute some land reforms that United Fruit Company didn't like. I counted once, the CIA was involved in an average of one coup or intervention of some sort per year around the world from the time of it's inception up until the 1st Gulf War. The worst was Indonesia, where by some accounts close to a million peasants were killed by Suharto's troops, many of their names having been supplied by the coup's CIA backers.

But this is not really the US government per-se that has been involved all these years in these things, this is the unseen hand of greedy businessmen, powerful enough to appropriate US taxpayer money and send the CIA around the world doing their dirty work for them. (Brazil, Bolivia, Haiti, Peru, Chili, Angola, the list goes on and on.)

I just wanted to point out the importance of the Council on Foreign Relations, who set it up, and their long involvement in corrupting the US government to their own ends. Also important, is how the Council is intricately tied to the Federal Reserve. The Fed is the cash-cow of the banking elite, the Rockefeller family being among the more visible. Chase Manhattan Bank (now J.P.Morgan Chase) is one of the prominent owning banks of the Federal Reserve, and David Rockefeller, for all intents and purposes, runs the Council on Foreign Relations - if not officially anymore. The Rockefeller family wasn't originally very big in the banking industry of course, J.D.Rockefeller made his money in oil. The Supreme Court (under Taft) broke up Rockefeller's Standard Oil into 33 small companies, but they remained in Rockefeller hands and, guess what many of those companies became? Mobile, Exxon, etc. Now I know that ownership of those big companies is in many many hands now, and I know that David Rockefeller doesn't run the world ... but my point is, the most lucrative businesses out there are currency and oil - and the richest most powerful people in the world control those two industries (and control the US government). 'Who' exactly is a somewhat tougher question, and there are hundreds if not thousands of "players", but it's safe to assume that they all occupy a place on the top tiers of a pyramid, with the banking and industrialist dynasties that set up the Federal Reserve and the CFR (and it's English counterpart the RIIA, or Chatham House as it's called now) at the top. Speaking of "secretive" think-tanks, many of these people meet regularly under the auspices of various organizations such as the Bilderberg Group, the Peter G. Peterson Institute for International Economics, the Trilateral Commission, the Council on Foreign Relations of course, and there are many others, some big, some small, some old and some new - all with slightly different agendas, all of them secretive to one degree or another - these people don't want the public to know what they are talking about). There is a Bilderberg meeting going on right now in Northern Virginia actually. Both Hillary and Obama are at this moment close by, if not there, by the way.

Back to oil for a quick second. As per the Bretton Woods agreement of 1971 the US officially went off the gold standard - around the same time, Saudi Arabia and other OPEC countries agreed to trade oil in US dollars. In effect, the US dollar went off the gold standard and onto the Petroleum standard. As long as every country in the world needed US dollars to buy oil, there would be a demand for them and the US could borrow and tolerate big trade deficits without getting into too much trouble. Saddam Hussein, in either 2000 or 2002 (I forgot when) abandoned the dollar and started trading under the oil-for-food program in Euros (big mistake). Iran just did the same thing - I don't know exactly what currencies they are trading in now, but they told Japan close to a year ago to start buying in Yen, and I know they aren't trading in dollars anymore. Right before the Iranian Oil Bourse went on line a couple months ago is exactly when all of those underground communications cables around the Mid-East got cut - taking Iranian banks off-line and delaying the opening of the Bourse while western oil and banking interests made emergency preparations for the impact the new Oil Bourse would have on the dollar. Iran has been thumbing it's nose at the West in more ways than just that. As per Islamic religious rules, usury is forbidden there, and Iran (along with Libya, Sudan, Cuba and North Korea), has resisted the setting up of a western-style (read: Rothschild/Warburg/Rockefeller/Morgan/etc. controlled) currency-issuing central bank. Iraq didn't either, before the invasion, nor did Afghanistan. They do now.

The US isn't worried about Iran gaining nukes. North Korea already has a few, and Kim Jung-Il is a raving lunatic, who has lobbed test missiles over Japan just to freak them (and me!) out. But Kim Jung-Il has something going for him - he really does have nukes, and could take out Seoul and all the US troops stationed on the DMZ if he wanted, and he doesn't have any oil - or, more to the point, he doesn't have the means of affecting the price of oil by increasing production as countries in the Mid-East can. Iran on the other hand is the gem of the Middle East - without a western-controlled central bank, plenty of oil, and sitting smack dab between the land-locked oil and gas rich Caspian Basin and the Persian Gulf, from where oil and gas could be easily loaded on to tankers and delivered to energy starved China, India, Japan and Korea. Which is what they want to be able to do. I am surprised they haven't started building a pipeline through Afghanistan by now, as UNOCAL planned to do in the late 90's, but maybe they're waiting to see what happens - as it's a much shorter route through Iran.

So anyway, with the addition of Israeli security, I've inadvertently sort of outlined the real reasons for the current US presence in Iraq. But before I finish I've gotta connect the Bush family to these banking and oil dynasties. One of the industrialists that the Rothschild nexus supported in the late 19th century was E. H. Harriman, the railroad baron. His son, Averrel Harriman was intimately involved in the CFR in the early days, and served under a number of US diplomatic titles. He also was in business with Prescott Bush, George Bush's grandfather. Prescott had business dealings with Georger Herbert Walker, an investment banker who had dealings with some of the same north-eastern industrialists who set up the Federal Reserve and CFR. Prescott married Walker's daughter, George H. W. Bush being their son. All of them, including Averrel Harriman, were "bonesmen", that is, members of the Yale "Skull and Bones" fraternity that you hear about. That's how the Bush family made their way into the inner circle. Actually, Union Banking Corp. which Averell Harriman's brother Rolland and Prescott Bush were directors of together was indicted and shut down under the Trading With the Enemy act after WWII for funneling money to Hitler, you can look it up. Point is, all of those people, Bush, Cheney, Clinton, Kissinger, heck I'd include about every prominent politician of memory with the exception of Kennedy, who they killed, as a rotten scoundrel - working for the elite bankers and rich industrialists who push their game pieces around behind the scenes, plotting their next move. Forgive me for being so blunt, forgive me for sounding like such a "conspiracy theorist" but how else should one dress it up?? It angers me so.

On a lighter note, this is interesting, the Wizard of Oz was actually a commentary on the "banksters" of old, the fathers of the Fed. The innocent little dog who finally pulls back the curtain to reveal the wizard pulling levers was called "toto" because of it's latin meaning - total, everyone, the public. The yellow brick road (gold), the tin-man without a heart (workers in the factories), all of those things in the story apparently have hidden meanings - the book was written as a veiled commentary back when the industrialists and bankers were trying to get control (which they did), and when people were aware of and cared about this stuff. Funny, how without the internet or even TV people back then were more informed about what was really going on...

I didn't know for sure if the same people who ran the CFR and extract wealth out the pockets of American taxpayers for a living through the Federal Reserve actually had a hand in planning 9/11 until I heard an interview that Aaron Russo gave. Aaron Russo directed (or produced, I forget) the movie "The Rose" with Bet Midler, who he managed for a time, and "Trading Places" with Eddy Murphy which he produced. He was nominated for an Oscar 6 or 7 times and was a grammy winner. He passed away recently from cancer, but before he died he gave an interview where he talked about his friendship with Nicholas Rockefeller, who tried to talk Russo into joining the Council on Foreign Relations. Russo refused, and, after hearing all about what the Rockefellers and other globalists were up to, broke off the friendship.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7nD7dbkkBIA&feature=related

One of those "things" is the planned North American Union, complete with a new currency to compete with the Euro, the "Amero".

(You gotta watch this one dad, Stephen Previs isn't exactly a crack-pot... it's short.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3jdQxDC7pA


Democratic House Representative Marcy Kaptur from Toledo is pretty upset about it ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TShPYA-OuPs


So it makes me wonder ... if they are planning on trying to merge the economy of the US with that of Canada and Mexico and replace all three currencies with a new one, might they not try to purposely devalue the dollar first?

The yen is crashing too, but not because Japan is spending and borrowing like there's no tomorrow, rather because if the dollar drops too low below the Yen, all of those Japanese working for Toyota and Nissan lose their jobs - so they buy a billion in US treasury bills every day to try and keep the exchange rate within a reasonable range - and they're losing their shirts on it, and so are the Chinese.

But that's not what concerns me the most. The US has been quietly building detainment camps all over the country for the last 10 years, operating under the auspices of FEMA, Homeland Security and the US Army. Halliburton's subsidary Kellog, Brown & Root built a bunch of them. Dunnoh why. There are hundreds, some accounts say 800, all over the US, most of them staffed already. Bush has all the mechanisms in place, put there quietly with a stack of executive orders, to declare Martial Law in the US with one sign of the pen - all he needs is an excuse. They've been eavesdropping phone, email, who knows what, for the last 6 or 7 years. Who knows what kind of lists they have prepared. They do have close to a hundred thousand names on the "no-fly-list", not too long ago an elderly constitutional scholar, a professor at some US university, gave a lecture where he enumerated the ways in which the Bush administration has subverted the Constitution - and the lecture was aired on C-SPAN. The next time he tried to board a plane (in Phoenix I believe) he wasn't able to - that lecture had gotten him added to the "no-fly list". If I send this e-mail to you, and if I go home to see you and mom and everyone when I get some money saved up, and when I go to the airport to come back to Japan, will they let me? Probably, but who knows. America is going nuts, completely nuts.

Praying for the United States of America

xxxx

................................................................................
.

[JFK]

(By the way JFK, how the heck are you brother!??)

Honestly I've been better, but I won't bore you with details....

I've been "opening eyes" at every opportunity I have and there are many, many people whom I've spoken with over the past few years regarding the events of 911, and the vast majority already know, but they feel totally helpless.

I used to think it was apathy, but now I think despair would be a more apt term.

Anyway, tying in with the Fed. Reserve part, I noticed this today.... Taken from the BBC on 911 just before the attacks.

(IMG:http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/6923/bbcmetalsnr7.jpg)

< looks at sig and shakes head in disgust >

[fransan]

[quote name='dMole' date='Jun 5 2008, 10:30 PM' post='10743487']
Yep, it's only going to get BIGGER as more people research and investigate. Have you ever heard of "exponential growth?"

I think this is bad for the site. Because I see alarming amounts of misinformation and lies on many of the threads.
In fact I think "Pilots for truth" should have some kind of censorship to stop that, cause I think it will hurt the site in the long run.
If we are searching for truth, then we shouldn´t be discussing certain *BS* that you can find here. Only the truth, the prooven
facts should be allowed and discussed. It´s nice to have "alternative theories" to analyze, but I think you have to accept this has
gotten pretty out of hand.

[rob balsamo]

Our main site is factual only. Posts on this forum are the responsibility of the author and does not necessarily reflect the view of P4T as is described when registering. Also, please read the big white bold letters at the top of the forum. We dont censor. If we did, we would be just like those we are fighting. We move topics to the appropriate category if misplaced.

If you find something that you feel is "misinformation". Call em out on it.

(everyone's a critic.. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) )

[dMz]

I think this is bad for the site. Because I see alarming amounts of misinformation and lies on many of the threads.
In fact I think "Pilots for truth" should have some kind of censorship to stop that, cause I think it will hurt the site in the long run.
If we are searching for truth, then we shouldn´t be discussing certain *BS* that you can find here. Only the truth, the prooven
facts should be allowed and discussed. It´s nice to have "alternative theories" to analyze, but I think you have to accept this has
gotten pretty out of hand.

Interesting 3rd post. I note that fransan didn't cite any specifics or post in the relevant (non-welcome) thread(s). I wonder fransan's personal feelings/stance on the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_burning

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/media_nm.php?lang...mp;MediaId=3529

(IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/whistle.gif)

EDIT: Again, "So looking at <= 20% of data is sufficient to form an "overall picture of things" then? Hmmm...."

Also, has fransan read the following recently?

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?showtopic=702

[Sanders]

...I see alarming amounts of misinformation and lies on many of the threads.
In fact I think "Pilots for truth" should have some kind of censorship to stop that, cause I think it will hurt the site in the long run.
If we are searching for truth, then we shouldn´t be discussing certain *BS* that you can find here. Only the truth, the prooven
facts should be allowed and discussed. It´s nice to have "alternative theories" to analyze, but I think you have to accept this has
gotten pretty out of hand.

Fransan, I and other posters have tried to be helpful in responding to you in this thread. What "misinformation" are you referring to? What's gotten out of hand? We allow all sorts of hypothesis in the Alternative theories forum. When threads pop up elsewhere that veer outside the realm of what's verifiable or supportable, we move them there. There, people can critique and challenge to their heart's content, when those discussions overheat, we move them to the debate forum. When people get on our nerves and break the rules too many times, we suspend or ban them. But as a rule we do not delete posts, we do not delete threads - not unless it's spam.

Again, please, what are you referring to when you mention "misinformation"?

[painter]

...I see alarming amounts of misinformation and lies on many of the threads.
. . .

. . .
Again, please, what are you referring to when you mention "misinformation"?

I want to echo Sanders post, sanfran. First of all, let me say that I appreciate where you're coming from, the POV of maintaining the forum's credibility. However, making a general "broadly speaking" criticism of the forum doesn't really help us much. Let me say, first of all, that from my point of view "misinformation" is the rule, not the exception. Everywhere we turn in our lives we are confronted with half-truths, errors, and total fabrications. It is sort of like the old saying, "everything you know is wrong." The problem is, how do we establish truth? How do we separate it out from what is false? This isn't an easy task even under the best of circumstances but made all the more difficult, especially in regards to subjects having to do with 9/11, because there is an on-going, multi leveled, disinformation program that is deliberately muddying the waters. (The five frame Pentagon 'impact' video and the Flt 77 FDR come instantly to mind.)

So, keeping it simple, you have two options. When you find a statement in a thread that you believe is mis/disinformation, as a member of this forum you have the ability to reply to and counter that information directly in the thread OR to start a new thread of your own in the appropriate forum. That is what the forum is for. If you can show conclusively that certain information is false or misleading I'm sure those of us who are sincere in our quest for truth and understanding will be very appreciative. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif)

[grizz]

A free and open exchange of information and ideas cannot coexixt with censorship. It's that simple. It is one of the rare things in life that is truly black and white, with no shades of gray.

Plus, who would be the person(s) who would decide what is to be censored or not?

Other forums might 'control' what is allowed, but that is their decision. Our approach is to let these theories sink or swim, rather than drowning them outright.

[grizz]

Another thing, fransan. Though people who are new to the truth movement are certainly most welcome here, this forum is not intended to be primarily for the purpose of basic education. We do deep research here. Some of it is technical and scientific. Some of it is more abstract and theoretical. Some of it gets quite far out. We don't try to shove anything into a box, and trust the individual reader/poster to make up his/her own mind.

[fransan]

OK. Maybe I wasn´t clear in my previous post. Or maybe I don´t quite get how the site works. I have read some incredible things in threads here, for example: T.V. fakery (BS if you ask me), together with NO PLANES theories, to mention a couple, plus frankly I haven´t had the curiosity to go into threads that discuss aliens or UFO´s.
Maybe I should try to read everything but I have sort of limited my reading to what I find interesting from a personal viewpoint.
I don´t mean in any way to discredit the work of P4T which I believe is respectable, but I do feel that those other themes can hurt the seriousness and objectivity of the site.
Thanks. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif)

[painter]

OK. Maybe I wasn´t clear in my previous post. Or maybe I don´t quite get how the site works. I have read some incredible things in threads here, for example: T.V. fakery (BS if you ask me), together with NO PLANES theories, to mention a couple, plus frankly I haven´t had the curiosity to go into threads that discuss aliens or UFO´s.
Maybe I should try to read everything but I have sort of limited my reading to what I find interesting from a personal viewpoint.
I don´t mean in any way to discredit the work of P4T which I believe is respectable, but I do feel that those other themes can hurt the seriousness and objectivity of the site.
Thanks. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif)

I don't think any of us (with the possible exception of dMole whose stamina never ceases to amaze me) have read everything posted here. Perhaps it is better to stay away from the "alt theories" forum if those more 'out there' subjects don't intersect you.

[fransan]

Thanks for the feed back everyone. Specialy dMole and Sanders. I read everything and found it very interesting.
I want to say this though.
I understand completely the defense of liberties and rights, and the constitution.
However, and please bear with me for just a few lines.
1.- Let´s assume for a moment, that the official story is ALL TRUE. (For arguments sake.)
2.- Let´s assume that the U.S. Gov. was caught with their pants down, and that they either had no idea this was going on, or that they knew it could happen but were in denyal and so shocked that were unable to react on time or do so properly as events were unfolding.
O.K. are you with me so far? If we assume these two premisses, where does that take us?
WHAT DO YOU DO? After all the tragedy is over and you´ve lost thousands of inocent lives inside the U.S.?
What do you do as the U.S. Gov. to make sure that something like this (or much worse) doesn´t happen again? How do you protect the american people when you know:
1.- That the very rights and liberties that protect your citizens have been used against you, and against your civilian population.
2.- That the enemy has been able to infiltrate your own civilian population.
3.- That you are at war, but not with an army on another land, or a Country. The people who are wagging war against you are living in the U.S. Some are U.S. citizens allready, or are in the proccess of becoming so.
WHAT DO YOU DO?

[grizz]

I can't answer that question, because it is based on assumptions that I am quite sure to be false.

In the real world, the criminal element that controls our government wants to remove our rights so that we cannot fight them, and expel them. The three generation Bonesman Bush family has been working on this for over eighty years, at the least, and Bush 41 has had his thumb in every pie for the last fifty years.

Read Paranoid Shift and you will realize that we are living in the Fourth Reich, and have been since WWII.

http://www.onlinejournal.com/artman/publis...inter_203.shtml

Also, read this 1999 interview with Antony Sutton, the researcher who exposed Skull and Bones to the public.

http://www.antonysutton.com/suttoninterview.html

[jellybean]

Thanks for the feed back everyone. Specialy dMole and Sanders. I read everything and found it very interesting.
I want to say this though.
I understand completely the defense of liberties and rights, and the constitution.
However, and please bear with me for just a few lines.
1.- Let´s assume for a moment, that the official story is ALL TRUE. (For arguments sake.)
2.- Let´s assume that the U.S. Gov. was caught with their pants down, and that they either had no idea this was going on, or that they knew it could happen but were in denyal and so shocked that were unable to react on time or do so properly as events were unfolding.
O.K. are you with me so far? If we assume these two premisses, where does that take us?
WHAT DO YOU DO? After all the tragedy is over and you´ve lost thousands of inocent lives inside the U.S.?
What do you do as the U.S. Gov. to make sure that something like this (or much worse) doesn´t happen again? How do you protect the american people when you know:
1.- That the very rights and liberties that protect your citizens have been used against you, and against your civilian population.
2.- That the enemy has been able to infiltrate your own civilian population.
3.- That you are at war, but not with an army on another land, or a Country. The people who are wagging war against you are living in the U.S. Some are U.S. citizens allready, or are in the proccess of becoming so.
WHAT DO YOU DO?

I read your post and tbh I don't know what I would do. But I'm not exactly understanding where that question has come from. Even if the government story is all completely true, and they just didn't know/didn't react in time, the only thing that you can do as a government is learn from it. Ultimately you cannot completely prevent terrorism without taking away everyone's right to freedom.

After 9/11 I would have expected the government to look at it all from scratch. Start at the very beginning. Look at the terrorists, look at when the plan was formed, find out as much information as they could about the terrorists and how they went about putting their plan in motion. Look at what happened at each step as the plan was carried out. Find out if they could have intercepted the planes, or if they could have stopped the terrorists from even boarding the planes to begin with. Look at what (if anything) could be changed to hopefully stop things like this from happening again. Analyse the emergency systems that were put in place and see how they can be improved.