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Greetings, Newcomer…with keen interest

Kozer1
post Mar 4 2014, 11:01 AM
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Greetings everyone. I just recently retired from 35 years of flying for Piedmont/USAirways. Like you, I have had nagging doubts about the "Official Story" surrounding the events of 9-11. I have explored the internet, Youtube and alternative news sources, and have arrived here with you in a search for what really happened and how.
As with every conspiracy, there is an obvious flaw…a weak link in the story. Tower 7 of the WTC complex was the first and most obvious for me. Now, years later, here we are. Since this site is frequented by those imminently more qualified in so many fields than am I, this will be a wonderful learning experience for me, as I sit in the "back of the room", and learn what so many of you have already discovered. Perhaps, collectively, we can actually get a break in this case. Time has a way of loosening tongues, and with careful research and diligence, I'm convinced we can get much closer to the truth.
Two personal discoveries piqued my interest and drove me into a somewhat serious search for answers: The NORAD exercises involving hijacked airliners, and the release of documents describing "Operation Northwoods". There is a Youtube video of Jesse Ventura being questioned by Barbara Walters on the "View". Ms. Walters was horrified at Jesse"s notion that our Government would allow the slaughter of 3,000 American citizens. Jesse's answer was key…"Hey Barbara, 54,000 Americans were sacrificed in Vietnam for some Government agenda…what's 3,000 more?" Well said.

Regards,
DK

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bobcat46
post Mar 4 2014, 01:38 PM
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Kozer1: Welcome to the site. Don't forget about "what's over 6,000 dead soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan more?" (We won't even mention the tens of thousands whose lives have been ruined with injuries and PTSD.) I have a neighbor across the canal that flies the big ones for US Airways. He refuses to talk to me about 9/11, he is in total denial. I also hope that we get to the truth before I die.
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realitycheck77
post Mar 4 2014, 05:29 PM
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@Kozer1

On some of the points you raise there..
The 54,000 americans who were killed in Vietnam were killed in action against the Vietcong and the North Vietnamese, not killed deliberately by their own comrades. If the US could have achieved what they wanted to achieve in Vietnam without one soldier being killed then they would have done it.
Operation Northwoods, whatever the obvious wrong-doing involved in this outline list of suggested plans, did not involve killing Americans. If you read through it the only place where there is any specific indication of whether people would be harmed is where it talks about having assassination attempts on Cuba exiles 'even to the extent of wounding'. It's a bit of a step going from considering wounding people to murdering thousands. There is one section of it where the use of a drone aircraft is involved. The reason it is suggested is so that people would not be killed - that was the only reason for suggesting this radio-controlled aircraft be used. Otherwise they could have just blown up any airliner and it's passengers and blamed it on the Cubans.
The main point about Operation Northwoods is why it existed in the first place. The reason anyone thought they might need to stage fake attacks and make it look like the Cubans had done it, was because they knew the Cubans weren't going to do it. Fidel Castro wasn't going to go attacking the US and give them the excuse they were looking for to invade Cuba , and crush his fledgling revolution. The US knew this, hence Operation Northwoods. With Islamic terrorists they had already bombed US embassies killing hundreds , bombed a US warship and declared war on the US, urging muslims everywhere to attack Americans everywhere in the world. You don't need to stage an attack on yourself when there are people who have declared war on you and are queueing up to attack you already.

On the question of NORAD exercises on 911, the questions I would ask are :

-Were these the first exercises ever held by NORAD?- or had they held exercises before 911 when there were no hijackings? So they held exercises when there were no hijackings and they were holding exercises when there were hijackings. I don't see a pattern there.
- Should NORAD not hold exercises? If people think NORAD should have done this or that on 911, don't their pilots have to do training exercises? Don't pilots have to be trained?
-If you had to be sure that there would be no hijackings when you were holding an exercise , when would you ever hold an exercise?
-If firefighters were holding a training exercise when they got a call to a fire , would you accuse the firefighters of starting the fire?
-Where did the specious notion arise that holding and exercise when an emergency situation occurs indicates some kind of guilt on the part of those holding the exercise?


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NP1Mike
post Mar 5 2014, 12:09 AM
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QUOTE (realitycheck77 @ Mar 4 2014, 04:29 PM) *
-Where did the specious notion arise that holding and exercise when an emergency situation occurs indicates some kind of guilt on the part of those holding the exercise?


First of all, those holding the exercises weren't guilty of anything. When you take part in those exercise you are simply following orders.

Secondly, you think it's a specious notion that those giving the orders didn't leave a sizable contingency to be ready for any emergencies that might arise while the training exercise were staking place?

Since when does the U.S. military put all its eggs in one basket?
Is this normal protocol?
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Kozer1
post Mar 5 2014, 12:56 AM
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QUOTE (realitycheck77 @ Mar 4 2014, 04:29 PM) *
@Kozer1

On some of the points you raise there..
The 54,000 americans who were killed in Vietnam were killed in action against the Vietcong and the North Vietnamese, not killed deliberately by their own comrades. If the US could have achieved what they wanted to achieve in Vietnam without one soldier being killed then they would have done it.
Operation Northwoods, whatever the obvious wrong-doing involved in this outline list of suggested plans, did not involve killing Americans. If you read through it the only place where there is any specific indication of whether people would be harmed is where it talks about having assassination attempts on Cuba exiles 'even to the extent of wounding'. It's a bit of a step going from considering wounding people to murdering thousands. There is one section of it where the use of a drone aircraft is involved. The reason it is suggested is so that people would not be killed - that was the only reason for suggesting this radio-controlled aircraft be used. Otherwise they could have just blown up any airliner and it's passengers and blamed it on the Cubans.
The main point about Operation Northwoods is why it existed in the first place. The reason anyone thought they might need to stage fake attacks and make it look like the Cubans had done it, was because they knew the Cubans weren't going to do it. Fidel Castro wasn't going to go attacking the US and give them the excuse they were looking for to invade Cuba , and crush his fledgling revolution. The US knew this, hence Operation Northwoods. With Islamic terrorists they had already bombed US embassies killing hundreds , bombed a US warship and declared war on the US, urging muslims everywhere to attack Americans everywhere in the world. You don't need to stage an attack on yourself when there are people who have declared war on you and are queueing up to attack you already.

On the question of NORAD exercises on 911, the questions I would ask are :

-Were these the first exercises ever held by NORAD?- or had they held exercises before 911 when there were no hijackings? So they held exercises when there were no hijackings and they were holding exercises when there were hijackings. I don't see a pattern there.
- Should NORAD not hold exercises? If people think NORAD should have done this or that on 911, don't their pilots have to do training exercises? Don't pilots have to be trained?
-If you had to be sure that there would be no hijackings when you were holding an exercise , when would you ever hold an exercise?
-If firefighters were holding a training exercise when they got a call to a fire , would you accuse the firefighters of starting the fire?
-Where did the specious notion arise that holding and exercise when an emergency situation occurs indicates some kind of guilt on the part of those holding the exercise?

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Kozer1
post Mar 5 2014, 01:14 AM
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Reality77,
I didn't realize this site was a discussion on past conflicts. As a Vietnam veteran, I do have a vested interest in what happened. And I've got a serious question for you…just WHAT did the US want to achieve in Vietnam? Whatever it was, they certainly didn't let us achieve it, did they? Gulf of Tonkin? My behind. I lost some very dear friends in that cesspool. For what? A helicopter ride off the Embassy roof to a carrier? C'mon, you gotta do better than that.
About Northwoods: The very fact that some goon in the Government cooked up this plan to bust Castro's butt is a clear indicator that another plan involving airliners was certainly within the realm of possibility.
I've not forgotten all of our precious treasure that we've squandered in Iraq and Afghanistan. Again, for what? Car bombs are killing hundreds in Baghdad, and Afghan Security personnel are gunning our troops down in a gesture of thanks. WTF??? Eleven years now chasing the Boogie Man in the Mid-East, and all we've got to show for it is President Kharsi telling us to cram it. Oh, let's not forget that Heroin addiction in the US is up 800% in the last nine years. Wonder where that stuff is coming from??
I honor the warrior...NOT the war. NOT this mindless mess with no endgame strategy and ridiculous Rules of Engagement. If you don't believe that your Government could concoct an attack on US soil in a "False Flag" operation while riding the coattails of Muslim hatred for the US, then I'm on the wrong website.
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rob balsamo
post Mar 5 2014, 04:51 AM
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QUOTE (Kozer1 @ Mar 5 2014, 12:14 AM) *
If you don't believe that your Government could concoct an attack on US soil in a "False Flag" operation while riding the coattails of Muslim hatred for the US, then I'm on the wrong website.


Hi Kozer1,

Keep in mind, anyone can register to this forum and post as long as they follow the forum rules. We have a few here who virtually support anything the govt tells them and will attempt to "debate" anyone who questions the govt. We have a disclaimer at the top of the forum for such occasions....

POSTS MADE TO THIS FORUM ARE THE SOLE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE AUTHOR AND DO NOT NECESSARILY REFLECT THE VIEWS OF PILOTS FOR 911 TRUTH
FOR OFFICIAL PILOTS FOR 9/11 TRUTH STATEMENTS AND ANALYSIS, PLEASE VISIT PILOTSFOR911TRUTH.ORG


See more here for related information...
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=22622

Hope this helps...

Welcome to the forum!
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poppyburner
post Mar 5 2014, 05:46 AM
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From: South West London, UK
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QUOTE (Kozer1 @ Mar 5 2014, 05:14 AM) *
I honor the warrior...NOT the war.



"That's a very mature attitude; appreciate it."

QUOTE (realitycheck77 @ Mar 4 2014, 09:29 PM) *
You don't need to stage an attack on yourself when there are people who have declared war on you and are queueing up to attack you already.


oO(Has this guy just emerged from a lengthy coma?)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_...estic_reactions

This post has been edited by poppyburner: Mar 5 2014, 06:09 AM
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realitycheck77
post Mar 6 2014, 12:19 AM
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QUOTE (NP1Mike @ Mar 4 2014, 11:09 PM) *
First of all, those holding the exercises weren't guilty of anything. When you take part in those exercise you are simply following orders.

Secondly, you think it's a specious notion that those giving the orders didn't leave a sizable contingency to be ready for any emergencies that might arise while the training exercise were staking place?

Since when does the U.S. military put all its eggs in one basket?
Is this normal protocol?



On 9/11 the same number of aircraft were on available for intercept duty as any other day- the 14 aircraft assigned to that duty were not taking part in exercises. Pilots do have to do training exercises though. If pilots are expected to deal with emergencies then they have to train for them at some stage. Pilots who are already in the air can sometimes be in a position to respond to requests from ATC , sometimes in a better position than planes that are on the ground. This was the case in the Learjet incident in 1999.
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realitycheck77
post Mar 6 2014, 01:01 AM
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QUOTE (Kozer1 @ Mar 5 2014, 12:14 AM) *
Reality77,
I didn't realize this site was a discussion on past conflicts. As a Vietnam veteran, I do have a vested interest in what happened. And I've got a serious question for you…just WHAT did the US want to achieve in Vietnam? Whatever it was, they certainly didn't let us achieve it, did they? Gulf of Tonkin? My behind. I lost some very dear friends in that cesspool. For what? A helicopter ride off the Embassy roof to a carrier? C'mon, you gotta do better than that.
About Northwoods: The very fact that some goon in the Government cooked up this plan to bust Castro's butt is a clear indicator that another plan involving airliners was certainly within the realm of possibility.
I've not forgotten all of our precious treasure that we've squandered in Iraq and Afghanistan. Again, for what? Car bombs are killing hundreds in Baghdad, and Afghan Security personnel are gunning our troops down in a gesture of thanks. WTF??? Eleven years now chasing the Boogie Man in the Mid-East, and all we've got to show for it is President Kharsi telling us to cram it. Oh, let's not forget that Heroin addiction in the US is up 800% in the last nine years. Wonder where that stuff is coming from??
I honor the warrior...NOT the war. NOT this mindless mess with no endgame strategy and ridiculous Rules of Engagement. If you don't believe that your Government could concoct an attack on US soil in a "False Flag" operation while riding the coattails of Muslim hatred for the US, then I'm on the wrong website.



The only reason I mentioned the Vietnam War was because you brought it up. The question you asked was 'What did the US want to achieve in Vietnam?' I think they wanted to prevent South Vietnam being invaded by the north Vietnamese. They didn't achieve it. They failed. What Jesse Ventura was suggesting was that the US Government sat down and just decided to kill 54,000 Americans in order to justify going in to Vietnam.
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onesliceshort
post Mar 6 2014, 10:33 AM
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Realitycheck77, let's fast forward a bit here. Humour me.

The recent overthrows and attempted overthrows in Syria and Ukraine. The US/EU have been caught with their panties down round their white cotton socks financing, cheerleading "Al Qaeda" (mercenaries) and Hitleresque fascists (mercenaries). The MSM media has towed the line through regurgitating foreign office policy, censoring mass murder (I mean, cruel, disgusting subhuman treatment of civilians) and even played ball when the Syrian mercenaries gassed and posed kiddies' bodies.

I'd like to hear your views on this.

Thoughts?
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Kozer1
post Mar 19 2014, 07:05 AM
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QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Mar 6 2014, 09:33 AM) *
Realitycheck77, let's fast forward a bit here. Humour me.

The recent overthrows and attempted overthrows in Syria and Ukraine. The US/EU have been caught with their panties down round their white cotton socks financing, cheerleading "Al Qaeda" (mercenaries) and Hitleresque fascists (mercenaries). The MSM media has towed the line through regurgitating foreign office policy, censoring mass murder (I mean, cruel, disgusting subhuman treatment of civilians) and even played ball when the Syrian mercenaries gassed and posed kiddies' bodies.

I'd like to hear your views on this.

Thoughts?


Thank you, thank you! This giant Ukrainian "backfire" should be a wake up call to all US citizens concerned with our Constitutional mission as a country. We have absolutely no business in the affairs of the Ukrainian people. Thank you, One Slice Short.
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onesliceshort
post Mar 20 2014, 12:01 PM
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QUOTE (Kozer1 @ Mar 19 2014, 12:05 PM) *
Thank you, thank you! This giant Ukrainian "backfire" should be a wake up call to all US citizens concerned with our Constitutional mission as a country. We have absolutely no business in the affairs of the Ukrainian people. Thank you, One Slice Short.


Hi Kozer1. Welcome to the forum mate! welcome.gif

I thought that Syria might have perked people's ears (hopefully it did) but Ukraine may have opened a can of worms. Hopefully at least the arrogance and undeniable hypocrisy will get people's attention.

I don't know what's being planned on the world stage but I know that 95% of Crimeans are being accused of "breaking international law" in a democratic vote.

"International law" = whatever the US policy makers want with the EU following behind on bended knee.

And not a squeak out of them when the NSA was caught eavesdropping on all of them.

Sidenote: I saw a report on how $2 TRILLION DOLLARS had been spent in Iraq over the last 12 years. Value for money, huh?

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poppyburner
post Mar 28 2014, 11:06 PM
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QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Mar 20 2014, 04:01 PM) *
Sidenote: I saw a report on how $2 TRILLION DOLLARS had been spent in Iraq over the last 12 years. Value for money, huh?


An old chestnut:

QUOTE (CBS News)
On Sept. 10, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld declared war. Not on foreign terrorists, "the adversary's closer to home. It's the Pentagon bureaucracy," he said.
...
Rumsfeld promised change but the next day – Sept. 11-- the world changed and in the rush to fund the war on terrorism, the war on waste seems to have been forgotten.
...
"According to some estimates we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions," Rumsfeld admitted.

~ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-war-on-waste/

QUOTE (Justin Elliott)
War critics in Congress would be foolish not to seize on the assertion from Gen. David Petraeus’ former chief logistician that the annual cost of air conditioning in Iraq and Afghanistan is over $20 billion:

~ http://www.salon.com/2011/06/27/wars_air_conditioning/

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