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Pilots For 9/11 Truth Forum _ Aircraft _ Plane Crash In New York State

Posted by: Omega892R09 Feb 13 2009, 08:43 AM

I am not about to hypothesise but others here may be able to fill in any blanks:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7887555.stm

Posted by: DoYouEverWonder Feb 13 2009, 09:11 AM

The wish of a 9/11 widow
Posted 12/5/04

A member of the Family Steering Committee for the 9/11 commission, Beverly Eckert, 53, wants "something constructive" to come from the death of her husband, Sean Rooney, in the World Trade Center. After urging Congress to form an investigative commission, Eckert (pictured at a ground zero vigil last week) is now championing intelligence reform legislation that stalled in the House after key Republicans wanted more provisions: no driver's licenses for illegal immigrants, to name one.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/041213/13eckert.peo.htm


Why is it only the good ones meet untimely deaths?

Posted by: Ricochet Feb 13 2009, 11:54 AM

The lawsuit was not about money, it was for accountability.

Posted by: JFK Feb 13 2009, 12:49 PM

ATC Audio - http://event.liveatc.net/kbuf/KBUF-Feb-13-2009-0300Z.mp3

Courtesy of - http://www.liveatc.net/

Posted by: jo56 Feb 13 2009, 02:13 PM

One of Buffalo crash victims met with Obama earlier (Last week)
http://www.nbc13.com/vtm/news/local/article/one_of_buffalo_crash_victims_met_with_obama_earlier/59383/


QUOTE
Associated Press
Published: February 13, 2009

WASHINGTON (AP) - President Barack Obama says the deadly plane crash in upstate New York reminds the nation of the fragility of life and the value of each day.

Speaking at an event at the White House, Obama said Friday that his prayers are with families and friends who lost loved ones. A Continental commuter plane crashed into a house in suburban Buffalo on Thursday night, killing all 49 people aboard and a person in the home.

One of the victims was Beverly Eckert, a Sept. 11 widow. She was just at the White House last week with Obama as part of a meeting he had with relatives of those killed in the 2001 attacks and the bombing of the USS Cole.

Obama said Eckert was an inspiration to him and he hopes her family finds comfort in the days ahead.

Posted by: grizz Feb 13 2009, 02:31 PM

A little more information:

Beverly Eckert, Bereaved of 9/11, Dies in Buffalo Plane Crash

February 13, 2009 by Mark Whittington

The bitterest of all ironies placed Beverly Eckert on Continental Flight 3407, the commuter plane that crashed near Buffalo, New York. Beverly Eckert lost her husband Sean Rooney at the World Trade Center on that Second Day on Infamy, 9/11.

Beverley Eckert's husband Sean worked on the 98th floor of the South Tower. On the faithful day, he called Beverley to tell her, as it turned out one last time, that he loved her. In the midst of the telephone conversation, there was a loud explosion, then nothing.

9/11 and the death of her husband thrust Beverly Eckert into unexpected and unwanted role of activist. She and others of the bereaved of 9/11 campaigned to force Congress to pass reforms of American intelligence gathering. Beverly Eckert co-chaired the 9/11 Family Steering Committee, which pushed to create the 9/11 Commission and, once the Commission had convened and made its recommendations, to make those recommendations law.

At one point, Beverly Eckert had vowed to return to some kind of regular life, like Cincinnatus after the wars, a citizen activist. But there was no going back. The work surrounding the 9/11 reforms having been done, Beverly Eckert devoted her energies to Habitat for Humanity, an organization that helps poor people to build homes.

Even so, Beverly Eckert could never get entirely away from 9/11. A week before she died, Beverly Eckert was at the White House with others of the bereaved of 9/11 and of the USS Cole sailors, discussing with President Obama's plans for dealing with captured terrorists in the wake of the decision to close Gitmo.

Sean Rooney died at the hands of fanatic terrorists. Beverly Eckert died in a plane crash likely caused by more conventional causes, mechanical failure or pilot error or perhaps both. But the fact that they both died untimely seven and a half years apart by plane crash is both ironic and bitter.

Beverly Eckert was a woman who was able to take her grief, of losing a husband, her high school sweet heart, and turn it into something powerful. The reforms that she and the others of the bereaved of 9/11 caused to pass likely helped to ensure that no other Americans have died, so far, from terrorist action on American soil. If gave Sean Rooney's death some meaning and made sure that Beverly Eckert's life mattered.

Not a bad legacy to leave behind, that.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1472841/beverly_eckert_bereaved_of_911_dies.html?cat=9

Posted by: grizz Feb 13 2009, 03:20 PM

http://www.voicesofsept11.org/dev/index.php




My Silence Cannot Be Bought

Beverly Eckert
Friday, December 19, 2003

I've chosen to go to court rather than accept a payoff from the 9/11 victims compensation fund. Instead, I want to know what went so wrong with our intelligence and security systems that a band of religious fanatics was able to turn four U.S passenger jets into an enemy force, attack our cities and kill 3,000 civilians with terrifying ease. I want to know why two 110-story skyscrapers collapsed in less than two hours and why escape and rescue options were so limited.

I am suing because unlike other investigative avenues, including congressional hearings and the 9/11 commission, my lawsuit requires all testimony be given under oath and fully uses powers to compel evidence.

The victims fund was not created in a spirit of compassion. Rather, it was a tacit acknowledgement by Congress that it tampered with our civil justice system in an unprecedented way. Lawmakers capped the liability of the airlines at the behest of lobbyists who descended on Washington while the Sept. 11 fires still smoldered.

And this liability cap protects not just the airlines, but also World Trade Center builders, safety engineers and other defendants.

The caps on liability have consequences for those who want to sue to shed light on the mistakes of 9/11. It means the playing field is tilted steeply in favor of those who need to be held accountable. With the financial consequences other than insurance proceeds removed, there is no incentive for those whose negligence contributed to the death toll to acknowledge their failings or implement reforms. They can afford to deny culpability and play a waiting game.

By suing, I've forfeited the "$1.8 million average award" for a death claim I could have collected under the fund. Nor do I have any illusions about winning money in my suit. What I do know is I owe it to my husband, whose death I believe could have been avoided, to see that all of those responsible are held accountable. If we don't get answers to what went wrong, there will be a next time. And instead of 3,000 dead, it will be 10,000. What will Congress do then?

So I say to Congress, big business and everyone who conspired to divert attention from government and private-sector failures: My husband's life was priceless, and I will not let his death be meaningless. My silence cannot be bought.

http://www.margieadam.com/action/beckert.htm

Posted by: painter Feb 13 2009, 04:32 PM

I must say, this is all bloody suspicious coming on the heels of a meeting with the President that brought 9/11 back into the headlines. Accidents do happen of course -- but, as we all know, so does assassination by aircraft sabotage.

Posted by: Ricochet Feb 13 2009, 04:54 PM

Final communications.
Source. http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/archive/2009/02/13/final-communications-of-flight-3407-audio-transcript.aspx

QUOTE
Final communications of flight 3407: audio, transcript
Posted: February 13, 2009, 8:08 AM by Shane Dingman
World
The following is a transcript of this audio recording of communications between the air traffic control tower and Continental Connection flight 3407 before it crashed Thursday evening into a house near Buffalo, N.Y.




“COLGAN 3407 DESCEND AND MAINTAIN 6,000.

COLGAN 3407 DESCEND AND MAINTAIN 5,000.

5,000, COLGAN 3407.

COLGAN 3407 DESCEND AND MAINTAIN 4,000... COLGAN 3407 DESCEND AND MAINTAIN 2,300...

3407.

COLGAN 3407 TURN LEFT HEADING 330.

US TURNING 330, COLGAN 3407.

3407 — 3 MILES FROM COMP TURN AND ONE HEADING T60 MAINTAIN 2,300 TILL STATUS LOCALIZING — PRESSURE ONLY 23.
WITH 260 2,300 TILL ESTABLISH AND CLEAR TO (INAUDIBLE) REPORT COLGAN 3407.


COLGAN 3407, CONTACT 120.5 — HAVE A GOOD NIGHT.


3407.
COLGAN 3407, APPROACH.
COLGAN 3407, BUFFALO.
COLGAN 3407, NOW APPROACH.

Editor's note: At this point the air traffic controller has lost contact with flight 3407, and attempts to contact another flight to see if it can re-establish visual contact:


DELTA 1998: LOOK OUT YOUR RIGHT SIDE ABOUT FIVE MILES FOR A DASH-8. SHOULD BE 2,300. YOU SEE ANYTHING THERE?
UHH, NEGATIVE, DELTA 1998 — WE’RE JUST IN THE BOTTOMS AND NOTHING ON THE T-CASTS.
COLGAN 3407 BUFFALO.
COLGAN 3407 BUFFALO, IT’S ARHIDEY HERE.
STANDBY — THERE’S SOME GROUND COMMUNICATION — YOU NEED TO TALK TO SOMEBODY AT LEAST 5 MILES NORTHEAST. ‘K — POSSIBLY CLARENCE? THAT AREA RIGHT IN
THERE. ACRINARIA... EITHER STATE POLICE OR SHERIFF’S DEPARTMENT. YOU NEED TO FIND IF ANYTHING IS ON THE GROUND. THIS AIRCRAFT WAS 5 MILES OUT — AND ALL OF A SUDDEN WE HAVE NO RESPONSE FROM THAT AIRCRAFT.
ALL I CAN TELL YOU IS THAT THE AIRCRAFT IS OVER THE MARKER — AND WE’RE NOT TALKING TO HIM NOW.
THIS IS (INAUDIBLE)... WE’RE GOING TO HAVE TO GET RIGHT BACK TO YOU, SIR. APPARENTLY WE HAVE AN EMERGENCY AND I’LL GET BACK AS SOON AS I CAN.
OK — FELLOW AIRCRAFT — THIS FREQUENCY... WE DID HAVE A DASH-8 OVER THE MARKER THAT DIDN’T MAKE THE AIRPORT. HE APPEARS TO BE ABOUT FIVE MILES AWAY FROM
THE AIRPORT. DELTA 1998 — I’M GOING TO BRING IN SURROUNDING APPROACH, UM, IF YOU COULD JUST GIVE ME A HIGHER-UP, WHEN YOU GET TO 2,300 AND UH, IF YOU
HAVE ANY PROBLEM WITH THE LOCALIZER OR ANYTHING — LET ME KNOW. HOWEVER, WE’RE SHOWING IT ALL IN THE GRAIN HERE.
HEY — THIS IS 1452. THANKS FOR YOUR HELP. I APPRECIATE IT. CONTACT 120.5.
POWER TO CACTUS: DID YOU FIND COLGAN?
UMMMM, UNFORTUNATELY HE SAID HE WENT DOWN ABOUT... RIGHT OVER THE UH, MARKER.
POWER CACTUS: UH, 1452 IS COMING UP ON COMPTON. WE JUST SAW THE GROUND. YOU GUYS KNOW WHAT’S GOING ON?
CACTUS, IT’S 1452 BUFFALO TIRE WINTER 26014, AND WAIT 23 TO COURE D’ALENE — YES, SIR, WE ARE AWARE.
OK.

Editor's note: Now a second Colgan turboprop approaches, and the flight controller asks if he wants a different approach to the landing.


COLGAN 3268 APPROACH.
SIR, I NEED YOU TO PREPARE YOURSELF. UM, COMPANY-DASH 8 IN BOUND — WE THINK WENT DOWN OVER THE OUTER MARKER. UMMM, WE’RE NOT SURE WHY. I’M NOT SURE IF YOU WANT TO TRY AND REPROACH. SINCE THEN, WE’VE HAD MORE AIRCRAFT GOING — THEY WERE ALL JETS.
3268.
SIR, IT WAS ANOTHER DASH-8 APPROXIMATELY 15 MINUTES AGO — AND WE’RE NOT SURE WHY.
UHHHH... CAN YOU... UH, CLARIFY THE, UHH, THE DASH-8? UHHH, WHAT, UMMM, HOW DO YOU MEAN IT WENT DOWN?
HE DIDN’T MAKE THE AIRPORT. HE WAS CLEAR FOR THE APPROACH, HE WENT OVER THE TOWER, HE DIDN’T CALL THE TOWER — BASICALLY HE EXITED DOWN... AND WE COULDN’T GET A HOLD OF HIM IN HIS REPORT. HE’S, UH, WENT DOWN OVER FIVE MILES NORTHWEST OF THE AIRPORT.
UHH, YEAH — WE’LL SHOOT THEIR PURSE STILL.
TELL THEM 3268, ROGER... THERE HAVE BEEN FOUR POINT SHOOTING APPROACHES AND UH, SO, JUST TO LET YOU KNOW. COLGAN 3268 — HE’S SENDING YOUR DISCRETION
MAINTAIN 3,500. AIRCRAFT DO REPORT ONCE THEY GET TO ABOUT 2,300 — AND THEY’RE OUT (INAUDIBLE)
ALL RIGHT — 3,500 IS COOL FOR 3268.”

Posted by: rob balsamo Feb 13 2009, 05:46 PM

The above transcript has alot of errors. For those wishing to have the proper audio, please download the link provided by JFK.

Posted by: rob balsamo Feb 13 2009, 05:55 PM

http://www.avn.faa.gov/d-tpp/0901/00065IL23.PDF (pdf)

Posted by: paranoia Feb 13 2009, 06:39 PM

http://www.colganair.com/
http://www.colganair.com/flight3407_press_release.pdf

Posted by: paranoia Feb 13 2009, 06:47 PM

a list of some of the others onboard the plane:

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20090213/NEWS01/90213021

Alison Des Forge, senior Africa adviser for Human Rights Watch. “She is a loss to all of those concerned about human rights and human dignity for the entire world,” friend Noorie Talebi. He described her as having a great heart. Talebi said she was returning to her home in Buffalo from a conference in London. “We were supposed to have dinner together tonight,” he said. According to the human rights watch Web site, she is an expert on Rwanda, Burundi and the Democratic Republic of Congo.

about Alison Des Forge:
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/12/23/rwanda-end-bar-human-rights-watch-staff-member


Beverly Eckert, of Stamford, Conn., whose husband died in the World Trade Center attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

Ron Gonzalez, 44, of North Brunswick, N.J., who worked for New Brunswick Tomorrow, a nonprofit social-services agency. Ellyce Kausner, student at Florida Coastal School of Law. Nicole Korczykowski, an employee of Barclays Capital in New Jersey.

Beth Kushner, 19, of Eden, Erie County, a Keuka College student.

Maddy Loftus of Parsippany, N.J. Was headed to State University College at Buffalo weekend reunion of women hockey players. Don McDonald of Fort Erie, Ontario, a technical manager at Pharmetics.

Coleman Mellett, a guitarist in jazz musician Chuck Mangione's band. The band was to play with the Buffalo Philharmonic Orchestra tonight.

Gerry Niewood, a saxophonist in jazz musician Chuck Mangione's band. He was a Rochester native and Eastman School of Music graduate,

Susan Wehle, 55, of Amherst, cantor for Temple Beth Am in Amherst.

Zhaofang Guo, 55, of Williamsville, husband of Dr. Ping Wang. Dr. Wang works at Roswell Park Cancer Institute.

Four employees from the Amherst office of Northrup Grumman, a defense contractor, who have not been identified.



***


edited to add:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/CJC3407

Posted by: paranoia Feb 13 2009, 08:08 PM

just saw this posted by SmokingGunz over at LCF:


"Two Israelis were among the dozens killed in a plane crash near Buffalo on Friday. One of them, George Abu-Karam, was a 29-year-old resident of Tiberias and a veteran of the now-defunct South Lebanon Army. Abu-Karam was in the United States visiting relatives. Another Israeli living in the U.S. was also on board the Continental flight"

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1063988.html

Posted by: Trismagistus Feb 13 2009, 09:34 PM

I'm neither a pilot or an activist, but a researcher that has found a common thread in some of our infamous air disasters. Long ago the History Channel(pre- 2001) ran a show about the military's trouble trying to determine why their new helicopters were crashing. In essence, the outcome was that the electronics in commercial aircraft are not electromagnetically shielded. So the military fixed the problem easily. What was more interesting was that during the show they displayed what would happen to an aircraft in such a situation caused by electronic warfare exercises if a plane ventured into that airspace. Loss of controls and if a blackbox was discovered there would be nothing on it...no recordings. Strangely this has happened already on a number of commercial aircraft flights where just before the disaster there was no communication of an emergency...like the plane just fell out of the sky.

If you seriously study some of the most high profile cases you will find erasure of the black box recording. One example if you remember this far back was an Egyptian flight where our news spun the story that the pilots shouted "God is holy, God is great" just before plunging their aircraft into the sea. The blackbox was discovered from that flight and 13 minutes were erased. This was also divulged in the same history channel show I mentioned above.

Here's what I think. Could it be an unintentional accident that the plane got too close to some exercise? Sure. I would guess the military would do everything in its power to hide the facts. It would be embarassing. However, the capability has existed for a long time that could render a plane useless by frying its electronics with electromagnetic radiation. I don't know the power densities involved, or what type of wave. If I were in charge of the military I sure would be very interested in making sure this technology wasn't being used by private individuals or enforcing checks and balances within the military to make sure rogue groups wouldnt do the same. Dont get me wrong, I respect our military but history has warned us in the past of rogue groups. I am sorry for the loss of life of all of those passengers in Buffalo, may they rest in peace.

Posted by: JFK Feb 13 2009, 10:01 PM

http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/578574.html

QUOTE
Updated: 02/13/09 08:39 PM
A partial list of passengers aboard Flight 3407



Buffalo State College provided this October 2002 photograph of former student and ice hockey player Maddy Loftus, who died in the Flight 3407 crash.
Associated Press

This is partial list of the passengers and crew aboard Continental Connection Flight 3407 as assembled by The Buffalo News. Also listed is the victim killed in the home struck by the airplane. The list will be updated as passengers are confirmed.

Pilot, Capt. Marvin Dean Renslow, 47, of Lutz, Fla. Records show Renslow, an Iowa native, was a small-business owner in Florida before joining Colgan Air in September 2005.

First flight officer Rebecca Lynne Shaw, 24, of Maple Valley, Washington, had joined Colgan Air in January 2008 and had flown 2,244 hours with Colgan. Records show she was certified as a flight instructor.

Flight attendant Matilda Quintero, 57, of Woodbridge, N.J., had been a flight attendant for just a year, and was hired by Colgan Air in May 2008.

Flight attendant Donna Prisco.

Capt. Joseph Zuffoletto, 27, an off-duty crew member from Jamestown. He joined Colgan Air in 2005 and was recently promoted to captain. He rented an apartment with two friends in Jamestown, where Colgan stationed him. Born in Rochester, he was raised in California. He has a grandmother in Cheektowaga.

Former Amherst resident Beverly Eckert, the widow of Sean Rooney, who was killed in the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. Eckert was traveling to Buffalo for a family celebration of what would have been her husband's 58th birthday.

Alison Des Forges, 66, who once taught at the University at Buffalo, historian and human rights activist who documented the 1994 genocide in Rwanda.

Ellyce Kausner, 24, a graduate of Clarence High School and Canisius College, who was a second-year student at Florida Coastal School of Law in Jacksonville, Fla. She was traveling home to visit her family and boyfriend before final exams.

Madeline Loftus, 24, a former Buffalo State College student who lives in New Jersey. She was on her way to reunite with 14 other alumni of Buffalo State's women's ice hockey team for a game Saturday. Loftus played for the school team from 2002 to 2004.

Jerome Krasuski, 53, was returning home to Cheektowaga with three other colleagues from Northrop Grumman from a one-day business trip. The former North Tonawanda resident worked as a program manager for the Williamsville defense contractor for more than 20 years. Krasuski's three Northrop Grumman colleagues also died in the crash.

Susan Wehle, 55, cantor at Temple Beth Am, Amherst, was returning home from a vacation in Costa Rica. The daughter of Holocaust survivors, Wehle was a cantorial soloist at Temple Sinai in Amherst for nearly 10 years before joining Temple Beth Am in 2002. She has two sons, Jonah and Jake.

Don McDonald, 48, of Fort Erie, Ont., was a technical manager at Pharmetics, Inc. in Fort Erie for 26 years. "Don was returning from New Jersey where he was reviewing some packaging equipment that the company was planning to buy," said Peter Lucyshyn, vice-president of quality operations.

Zhaofang Guo, 55, of Amherst, a Ford employee and husband of Ping Wang, a researcher at Roswell Park Cancer Institute.

Rochester native Gerry Niewood, 64, and jazz guitarist Coleman Mellett, 34, of East Brunswick, N.J., both musicians with the Chuck Mangione Band, were scheduled to perform tonight at Kleinhans Music Hall. Niewood played saxophone and flute. He played frequently at the original Tralfamador Cafe in the 1970s, and returned frequently to play Buffalo venues.

Mary "Belle" Pettys, 50, of West Seneca, was returning to Buffalo area from a business trip to New Jersey. Pettys had spent 25 years working for BlueCross BlueShield of Western New York and since 2006 had been employed by TriZetto, a healthcare company. She got engaged last December on her birthday, and was to be married this June.

David M. Borner, 49, of Pendleton, who worked for Kraft Foods, was returning from a business trip in New Jersey. He had planned to leave for a Florida cruise with his family this morning. He has one child in Starpoint High School and another in Starpoint Middle School.

Lorin Maurer, 30, of Princeton, N.J. worked for Princeton University's Office of Development Priorities. She was traveling to Buffalo for the first time to attend the wedding of Keith Kuwik, brother of her boyfriend, Kevin Kuwik. Both are sons of former Erie County Legislator Edward J. Kuwik of Lackawanna.

Jean Srnecz, 59, senior vice-president of merchandising for book distributer Baker & Taylor, was traveling to the Buffalo area to visit family. She was a gradulate of D'Youville College.

Douglas C. Wielinski, 61, an engineer and veteran, was believed to be in the dining room of the family's Clarence Center home when the airplane crashed into the house. Wielinski's wife, Karen, was able to escape by crawling out of the family room in the rear of the house. His daughter, Jill, was blown out of the house, officials said.

Clay Yarber, 62, of Riverside, Calif., was originally from Dayton, Ohio, and became a musician after serving in the Vietnam War, according to his ex-wife. He was headed to Buffalo to spend time with a friend.

Kevin Johnston, an employee at the Henkel Corp. facility in Buffalo. The plant was closed today in Johnston's honor.

John G. Roberts III, 48, a Lewiston native who lived in India, was returning home to visit his family. He had been active in St. Joseph's Roman Catholic Church in Niagara Falls when he had resided in the area.

Ronald Gonzalez, 44, director of a youth services program in New Brunswick, N.J., was flying into Buffalo to visit relatives. He previously was executive director of Alianza Latina, a nonprofit organization addressing HIV/AIDS in Buffalo.

Bethany Kushner, 19, of Angola, was returning home after spending a few weeks in California. She was a 2007 graduate of Eden Junior-Senior High School. She attended Keuka College for a year, and planned to complete her studies at Buffalo State College. Nicole Korczykowski, whose parents live in Eden, worked for a New York City-area investment firm.

After attending Nichols School, she graduated in 2001 from the University at Pennsylvania's Wharton School of Business, where she had a concentration in finance. Since then, she's been living in New York City, and has been working for various finance firms in that area.

Posted by: amazed! Feb 13 2009, 10:58 PM

Another one bites the dust...Too Bad.

I guess it was ice, and maybe the anti-ice wasn't working? New airplane, no breaks tonight....

Rachel Maddow, who I do respect, was totally flipped tonight over the accident, and wanted to "be reassured" by the government. LOL.

Posted by: Trismagistus Feb 13 2009, 11:26 PM

I watched the news tonight. They are missing the obvious question which was never brought up. What happened to communication at the 5 mile marker? No mention at all of it as if the ice was the whole story. I find any relevant information about that being withheld as suspicious because Ive seen this pattern before in other crashes. If that blackbox is found with no recording on it of any communications then Im stating that the plane could have been brought down by electronic warfare techniques. People want to believe in the "ice" story even though other pieces of this puzzle are missing. Completely bizzare how the news tonight totally overlooked investigating why there were no communications. See how easy it is for those in power to sway which way they want us to look? Much like a magician...watch his eyes not his hands for the full effect of the trick.

Posted by: rob balsamo Feb 13 2009, 11:56 PM

Colgan 3407 Air Traffic Control Audio and Transcript

ATC Audio provided by www.liveatc.net. Transcript provided by http://pilotsfor911truth.org. Edited for pauses and irrelevant air traffic.



Posted by: rob balsamo Feb 14 2009, 12:57 AM

44 guests logged onto this thread currently. Welcome those from Flightinfo. Please be sure to read the white bold letters at the bottom of this page. If you desire to register, please be advised of the forum rules.

Posted by: painter Feb 14 2009, 06:38 PM

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7890455.stm

Excerpt:




Genocide expert dies in US crash



Page last updated at 17:02 GMT, Saturday, 14 February 2009

The court trying alleged perpetrators of the Rwandan genocide has expressed its shock at the death in an air crash of a top expert on the 1994 massacres.

Alison Des Forges, 66, was among 50 people killed in a plane crash on Thursday near Buffalo, New York state.

A spokesman for the the UN tribunal for Rwanda called her death "a great loss", said AFP news agency.

Ms Des Forges was an expert adviser to the court on the genocide, in which some 800,000 people were killed.

"It is with deep shock that the tribunal has learned of the tragic disappearance of Alison Des Forges," said Roland Amoussouga, a spokesman for the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda.

"It is a great loss for the world of human rights, international justice and the whole of humanity," he added.


Ms Des Forges wrote a key study
of the Rwanda genocide


Posted by: Trismagistus Feb 14 2009, 07:02 PM

At 2300 feet heading 2-6-0 3407 was instructed to contact tower 120.5. Everything seemed fine at that point. No indications of the slightest emergency or concern of ice unlike CACTUS 1452 which was the most vocal about ice build up or RIME ice.
Delta 1998 was instructed to look for 3407 out the right side window but I guess sinceDelta was flying IMC that it wouldn't be possible to spot them? So the Delta pilot indicated he didn't see anything on TCAS either which is Traffic Collision Avoidance System that works by transponder that alerts pilots of other aircraft in their vicinity. Would TCAS work at 5 miles out?
Delta 1998 was flying IMC which stands for Instrument Meteorological Conditions, also known as 'blind flying' at 2,300 feet. VFR stands for Visual Flight Rules which permits the pilot to fly by site if conditions permit.
Well I'm still asking, what happened to 3407 at 2,300 feet? Even if the ice presented a problem, why no last communications? At that elevation there seems to have been plenty of time for a pilot to contact the tower. It will be interesting to find out whats on that blackbox if it's found and intact. Or more interesting what's not on it.

Posted by: captsly Feb 14 2009, 07:37 PM

NOTE WHAT IS SAID AT 31 MINUTES AND ZERO SECONDS.......

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...31008391&hl=en

Posted by: rob balsamo Feb 14 2009, 07:46 PM

Welcome to the forum captsly.

Please try to post in regular font.

Also, your link is broken.

Posted by: JFK Feb 14 2009, 07:47 PM

QUOTE (captsly @ Feb 14 2009, 06:37 PM) *
NOTE WHAT IS SAID AT 31 MINUTES AND ZERO SECONDS.......

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...31008391&hl=en

Looks like a malformed URL due to a copy paste from another forum to me. whistle.gif

Posted by: DoYouEverWonder Feb 14 2009, 09:55 PM

NYT - In Plane Crash, Loss of Momentum Still a Mystery

February 14, 2009

AMHERST, N.Y. — The commuter plane that crashed near Buffalo on Thursday night slammed to the ground flat on its belly, with almost no forward momentum and facing opposite its intended route, seconds after two automatic warnings to the pilots that the plane was not moving fast enough to stay aloft, the National Transportation Safety Board said on Saturday.

The description indicates that the plane, a Bombardier Dash 8 Q400, suffered an aerodynamic stall, meaning the flow of air over the wings was either disrupted or too slow to sustain flight, but the reason why remains a mystery.

Icing, which the crew of the plane reported shortly before the crash, is one possible reason, but Steven Chealander, the safety board member assigned to the investigation and a retired airline captain, said the aircraft had a sophisticated ice protection system.

The plane was equipped, he said, with pneumatic boots, which are a bit like tires, on the front edges of the wings, the tail and the vertical stabilizer, that inflate and contract twice a minute to break ice accumulations, as well as electrically heated propellers. The system gives an indication in the cockpit if any boot is not working, and so far, investigators have found no sign of such an indication, Mr. Chealander said.

“This Dash 8 is a workhorse airplane,” he said. “It’s not really susceptible to ice.”

Investigators searching the crash site for evidence have described a fire so intense that on one of the plane’s two propellers, all six blades were completely destroyed. The blades are made of a mixture of polyurethane and carbon. Past crashes have been caused by broken blades.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation has been scouring the neighborhood for parts that were thrown off before the plane hit the ground but have not found any, investigators said.

The flight, Continental Connection Flight 3407, began from Newark Liberty International Airport and was headed for Buffalo Niagara International Airport. It crashed into a house in the hamlet of Clarence Center, about six miles from the Buffalo airport, killing all 49 people on board and one person in the house.

Firefighters had pumped water on the smoldering wreckage for so many hours that the site became covered with ice, further complicating the investigation. On Saturday, volunteer firefighters and other workers used torpedo-shaped heaters to melt some of the ice, Mr. Chealander said. They were working in a cramped space in which the wreckage of a house is mixed with that of the plane and with the remains of the dead.

The medical examiner expects to take three or four more days to remove the bodies, Mr. Chealander said. Investigators are hoping to have all the wreckage recovered before Wednesday, when a major snowstorm is expected.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/nyregion/15crash.html?hp

1. What's with the single minded focus on 'ice'? Not even the standard 'we don't suspect terrorism' mentioned?

2. Interesting that they actually have 'bodies' to recover, especially after such an intense fire. Flight 93 was gone in a puff of smoke and all they had were human remains. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: captsly Feb 14 2009, 11:29 PM

QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Feb 14 2009, 06:46 PM) *
Welcome to the forum captsly.

Please try to post in regular font.

Also, your link is broken.



sorry 'bout the font , Google took down the video that nasa langly made about tail plane icing....
i have a personal copy i'll have to burn it and post it as a private video..... might be due to the number of hits... it's public information, so it;s interesting that it was removed....

Posted by: captsly Feb 14 2009, 11:46 PM

QUOTE (captsly @ Feb 14 2009, 10:29 PM) *
sorry 'bout the font , Google took down the video that nasa langly made about tail plane icing....
i have a personal copy i'll have to burn it and post it as a private video..... might be due to the number of hits... it's public information, so it;s interesting that it was removed....




try this:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3493859021331008391

note what is said at 31 minutes...

Posted by: albertchampion Feb 15 2009, 01:57 AM

when i was flying my baron, icing was the scariest situation encountered.

fortunately, everytime i encountered it, i was able to find a warmer flight level and escape.

but eventually, my rule was that i tried not to fly into those conditions.

if pireps reported icing in my flight path, i either turned around, put it down, or didn't launch.

what happened last week? what caused this bird to become so iced-up that it augured in and no bird before or afterwards experienced the same accumulation of ice?

i am comfortable, however, with the assertion that severe icing conditions can exist short-term, affecting no other aircraft. mainly because adverse weather can be a very isolated phenomenon.

still, if you recall some of my posts of how murder can be disguised in a catastrophe, it might be considered who on this flight was wanted to be dead.

to me, the clear target would be alison des forges. who had to have discovered the activities of the us intell services in ruanda, our running of kagame. the establishment of africom.

bev eckert. not so much a target. as i recall, she never questioned the "official" story concerning the events of 11/09/01. she just objected to the usg's ostensible negligence. i don't think that she ever considered the usg the instigator of the events of that day. but i could be getting that inaccurately.

Posted by: amazed! Feb 15 2009, 11:47 AM

Having never flown the Dash 8, it's a safe bet that a fully developed stall 2000 feet above terrain would be difficult to recover from, loaded with ice. And flaps and gear would seal one's fate.

Kinda like Roselawn, Indiana with the ATR those years ago.

Posted by: Trismagistus Feb 15 2009, 02:15 PM

In reading the last few posts Im in agreement and I'm astonished that the news services here in the US are only focusing on the ice as being the only culprit.Like mockingbirds that only mimic sounds. They chime together on the same story even though this plane was equipped with de-icing equipment and up til this pilots last communication she never once mentioned ice as an issue but in millions of Americans minds over the last week thanks to the so called 'news' most people believe that ice is the only factor. Unbelievable. How long does it take for a plane to fall from 2,300 feet? I'm supposed to believe that a pilot can't make contact with the ground in that time? I guess the ice accumulation was so massive at 2,300 feet that this aircraft turned into a giant block of ice instantaneously maybe 10 feet thick thus repelling any radio-wave communications? So they must have all froze to death instantly then fell straight down? Excuse my cynicism, I'm just mad about the needless loss of life and the incapability of a proper investigation that asks the obvious questions. Thank you all for the information about the de-icing capability of this plane...very important fact. I suspect that if ice was a problem the pilot would have alerted the tower of intention to change altitude. Also interesting to note that the plane landed flat but seems to have had no forward air speed mentioned in the investigation. If ice fell this plane and it fell out of the sky with no control how was the pilot able to land flat? There's some pieces missing in this investigation and hopefully since the tail section was still partially intact, the blackbox may be recovered."The crew discussed significant ice build-up — ice on the windshield and leading edges of the wings," said the NTSB's Steven R. Chealander. This line is interesting because if true I didn't hear anything in the communications to the tower posted above. I borrowed this from another website..."Dash 8 operating instructions state that, when operating in icing conditions, engine intake by-pass doors must be open, engine ignition switches must be set at manual, and airframe de-ice must be set to slow or fast." The author of that quotation stated that most pilots still wait for ice accumulation before switching the airframe de-icer on in order to prevent what they call 'ice bridging'.

Posted by: KP50 Feb 15 2009, 04:21 PM

QUOTE (Trismagistus @ Feb 16 2009, 07:15 AM) *
In reading the last few posts Im in agreement and I'm astonished that the news services here in the US are only focusing on the ice as being the only culprit.Like mockingbirds that only mimic sounds. They chime together on the same story even though this plane was equipped with de-icing equipment and up til this pilots last communication she never once mentioned ice as an issue but in millions of Americans minds over the last week thanks to the so called 'news' most people believe that ice is the only factor. Unbelievable. How long does it take for a plane to fall from 2,300 feet? I'm supposed to believe that a pilot can't make contact with the ground in that time? I guess the ice accumulation was so massive at 2,300 feet that this aircraft turned into a giant block of ice instantaneously maybe 10 feet thick thus repelling any radio-wave communications? So they must have all froze to death instantly then fell straight down? Excuse my cynicism, I'm just mad about the needless loss of life and the incapability of a proper investigation that asks the obvious questions. Thank you all for the information about the de-icing capability of this plane...very important fact. I suspect that if ice was a problem the pilot would have alerted the tower of intention to change altitude. Also interesting to note that the plane landed flat but seems to have had no forward air speed mentioned in the investigation. If ice fell this plane and it fell out of the sky with no control how was the pilot able to land flat? There's some pieces missing in this investigation and hopefully since the tail section was still partially intact, the blackbox may be recovered."The crew discussed significant ice build-up — ice on the windshield and leading edges of the wings," said the NTSB's Steven R. Chealander. This line is interesting because if true I didn't hear anything in the communications to the tower posted above. I borrowed this from another website..."Dash 8 operating instructions state that, when operating in icing conditions, engine intake by-pass doors must be open, engine ignition switches must be set at manual, and airframe de-ice must be set to slow or fast." The author of that quotation stated that most pilots still wait for ice accumulation before switching the airframe de-icer on in order to prevent what they call 'ice bridging'.

I watched the news in NZ and the story was along the lines of "a major breakthrough in the investigation of why the plane crashed in New York State" and as you say, it was ice, ice, ice all the way. My bullshit detector began to sound as there was no actual new evidence at all. But "they" know people will lose interest in this story in a day or 2 so they fix it in their minds as ice and then eventually the NTSB report will come out and say that it was caused by ice.

Posted by: Omega892R09 Feb 15 2009, 06:17 PM

QUOTE (KP50 @ Feb 13 2009, 07:21 PM) *
I watched the news in NZ and the story was along the lines of "a major breakthrough in the investigation of why the plane crashed in New York State" and as you say, it was ice, ice, ice all the way. My bullshit detector began to sound as there was no actual new evidence at all. But "they" know people will lose interest in this story in a day or 2 so they fix it in their minds as ice and then eventually the NTSB report will come out and say that it was caused by ice.

I'll put this remark I made in another thread as it fits right in with what you, and I, think:

Wasn't icing pointed at in the Senator Wellstone crash and a probable ILS fault on the ground? WRT 3407, I noted the ILS malfunction concerns of the voice from Buffalo ATC who I thought could do with speech training to improve the chances of his being understood.

Posted by: DoYouEverWonder Feb 15 2009, 06:34 PM

QUOTE
Fatal US plane 'was on autopilot'

15 February 2009

A plane that crashed onto a house in New York state, killing 50 people, was on autopilot when it went down in icy weather, investigators have said.

The Continental Airlines pilot may have breached federal safety recommendations by flying in such conditions, investigator Steve Chealander said.

Pilots are recommended to fly manually in icy weather, he said.

Analysis of the plane's data recorders shows the crew noticed significant ice build-up on its wings before the crash.

"You may be able in a manual mode to sense something sooner than the autopilot can sense it," said Mr Chealander, a spokesman for the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB).

He told the Associated Press news agency that the NTSB recommended pilots disengage their craft's autopilot facility in icy conditions.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7891770.stm


blink.gif

Posted by: nitatutt Feb 15 2009, 07:35 PM

The local weather was odd on the 12th.
We are all victims of current events - and it is nearly impossible to discern the truth from the lies that are broadcast 24/7.
I hope Beverly Eckert finally has the answers to her (our) questions, and I hope Alison Des Forges's legacy will continue, but I doubt it - we are trapped like rats in a cage.
I wouldn't surprise me if in the near future America experiences a "Rwanda" event, it appears that the demonic powers are hungry for more blood.

Posted by: albertchampion Feb 15 2009, 08:48 PM

there are many incorrect aspects of this flight reported by so many. this was a continental express flight. i don't think that the crew were continental airlines employees. i think they worked for colgan[which i think is a dba for another corporate entity that provides "shuttle" services for a number of major carriers in addition to continental].

what i also think that i have learned from these preliminary reports from the ntsb was that bird was flying away from buffalo international. i would like to hear more of those controller tapes. unedited i trust that the ntsb will acquire them. because if it is true that this plane made some turn away from the airport, i would like to hear how that manuever was made/authorized, since the flight was essentially on final.

all things considered, it appears to be one of the strangest accidents in aviation history. consider, a commercial airliner landing on a house with zero forward momentum in "belly flop" mode. i cannot imagine how that could happen unless the house had some kind of science-fiction style tractor beam aimed at the bird. i know of choppers going in that way, but i have never heard of a fixed wing colliding with terrain in that aspect. have any of you?

another part of the story that has intrigued me is the report of the conflagration that ensued. as i read the statements from the fired department, they all read as if the fire squads rarely encountered such a difficult to extinguish fire, and hosed the collision site down with so much water that the site was rendered an ice cube, and that for the investigation to commence, forced air heaters had to be deployed to melt that ice cube.

how much fuel would a dash 8 carry in excess of what it would take to fly from newark to buffalo? enough for a raging conflagration that went on for a length of time considered unique by the fire dept?

contrast this with the collision with terrain site of UA93 which exhibited virtually no evidence of any raging conflagration.

the other thing that puzzles me is the alacrity of the ntsb to get to the accident site and to issue preliminary reports/findings. contrast this with the ntsb's absence from any of the collisions with terrain sites of 11/09/01.

oh well, i think most of us know that at least since twa800 the ntsb has become an arm of the amerikan okhrana.

Posted by: richard cranium Feb 15 2009, 09:26 PM

The ABC affiliate here in southern California keeps mentioning and stressing the fact that the "autopilot" was on,and it shouldn't have been. I'm not a pilot and not really sure what they are saying,and how important it is. Perhaps someone here could elucidate. They also showed a cartoon-type recreation of the plane spinning like a top as it decends and crashes. I was kinda wondering what everybody thought about that too.

Concerning Beverly Eckert. Last Friday evening I was watching Charles Gibson's Nightly News (on ABC) and he stated that the whole reason Beverly Eckert sued the government was because she simply wanted "an apology". What the f***?

rc

Posted by: albertchampion Feb 15 2009, 10:07 PM

the "on" autopilot aspect of this story intrigues me.

because of what occurred during the fatal "accident" involving AS261. in that accident, according to the ntsb's interpretation of the fdr, when that flight began to go nasty it commenced with the re-engagement of the autopilot offshore pt mugu. there has never been a good explanation for why this autopilot system became re-engaged after having been disengaged within minutes of departing puerto vallarta hours earlier.

it is beyond my imagining that the crew of AS261 decided to re-engage the autopilot after having flown the bird manually since departure. especially since the flight crew knew that the autopilot system was malfunctioning, especially in the matter of trim. and the record was clear that this malfunctioning was the source of considerable communication with LA CONTROL and alaska airline maintenance personnel. the solution to the malfunctioning trim aspect of the autopilot was decided upon within minutes after launch: the plane would be flown to oakland manually.

in my analysis, some external mechanism re-engaged that autopilot system and complete manual control of the bird was denied that flight crew as a result of that event.

and though is is entirely possible that the colgan flight crew was still on autopilot when the accident occurred, this would not be a violation of any FAR's. on the other hand, just because the autopilot was engaged at the time of the collision with terrain does not mean that the crew engaged that autopilot system.

it may sound tin foil hattish, but i think that the us military has the mechanisms to acquire control of electronified birds...to contest the physical control of a flight crew.

by the way, this dash 8 was one of the first in a new generation of highly electronified variants of that design.

i wonder if there were any military aircraft working in the buffalo vicinity that night. as elaine scarry discovered in her 3 part investigation into TWA800 that was published in the new york review of books, there were lots of military aircraft conducting operations that night[all of which were denied by the dowar]. and by the way, to the best of my knowledge, scarry's work has never been picked up by the msm. even though most of her findings have been confirmed by the usg. research thrown down the memory hole.

alison des forges was the target. her story is right out of le carre. a sequel to his the constant gardener.

Posted by: datars Feb 15 2009, 11:52 PM

QUOTE (painter @ Feb 10 2009, 12:32 PM) *
I must say, this is all bloody suspicious coming on the heels of a meeting with the President that brought 9/11 back into the headlines. Accidents do happen of course -- but, as we all know, so does assassination by aircraft sabotage.

I agree

Posted by: JFK Feb 16 2009, 12:41 AM

A cockpit view of the Q-400 from bombardier - http://209.85.62.24/18/3/0/p120943/ph_bombardier_q400_12.png (3.41 Mb )

Posted by: rob balsamo Feb 16 2009, 01:28 AM

Steve Nieman is one of our core members and is a Capt on this airplane. I emailed him to stop by for the discussion when he has some time.

Thanks for posting the cockpit pic JFK.

For those interested, the "Ice Panel" (really anti-ice, de-ice), is on the upper left overhead. Cant miss it. Looks like the airplane is well equipped to handle ice.

Posted by: paranoia Feb 16 2009, 03:37 AM

im far from anything even remotely close to being a pilot or air craft mechanic, but i have some thoughts/questions.

"ice caused the crash"

it is february and in buffalo at that, so ice isnt exactly unusual, imho. plus the very day/night of the crash, even down here in virginia we were having wind gusts of up to 50 mph. so those two factors (ice/wind), if calculated into the events, might not make a crash out of the norm. frankly, im always shocked that there arent more major crashes in the winter skies, when u consider how many planes are flying around in extreme weather conditions.

but lets assume for a minute, ice was indeed the main factor leading to the crash. in other words, lets assume (hypothetically of course) that ice had indeed managed to freeze on enough of a surface on the craft's wings to render its airfoil inefficient.

the question would then become why? as in - why did the apparatus in place to melt or get rid of that ice, fail? ice itself may have indeed caused the crash, but im not saying the crash isnt suspicious, but that i personally wouldnt look at reports of "ice as the cause of the crash" as being suspicious part of this whole incident.

i think that if someone did sabotage the plane and wanted to make it look like a "natural" occurrence (due to mechanical failure), they would render the anti-ice machinery inoperable, and expect (to a very specifically calculated degree of certainty) that they could/would succeed in crashing the plane, given that it is winter and snowy and wet in where the plane was flying or going to fly. as a an added measure, this saboteur might have also have had in place some way of cutting off the (final) communications of the plane in order to make sure no hints/clues (via cockpit communications) were left behind.

maybe my scenario is a bit too technically demanding or complex and therefore too sensational to execute - i dont know... like i said, im no expert and have very little relevant knowledge about what would be involved on a physical parameters level. but i dont think ice being the culprit is in and of itself something to be suspicious of. ice happens in the winter. but (close to) 99 percent of the planes fly and land safely in the winter cuz corrective/preventative measures are taken and the planes' are equipped to get rid of the ice. so where this plane failed and why (if ice is indeed the cause), is where i think the answer (to what really happened) lies. perhaps someone (here) with relevant knowledge can comment or share some insights into the plausibility (or lack-thereof) of my hypothesis.


the future:

chances are likely some bs explanation for the mechanical failure of the anti-ice devices will be found and given by the ntsb down the road. then it will be up to the plane companies (the carrier and the plane manufacturer) as well as anti-ice device manufacturers to duke it out against the ntsb and to try to avoid taking the blame or fall (given the financial costs involved with such liability/responsibility). the flip side - and the defense possibly, might be blaming it on pilot error or miscalculation, hence the floating of the "auto-pilot" story...


Plane That Crashed Near Buffalo Was on Autopilot,
possible violation of safety recommendations:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=6882782


i guess we'll see.




***



some musings on a seperate but related note:

i also wonder about the miracle on the hudson plane and its AVERTED crash. what if those engines had been sabotaged (not by birds) and some of the passengers on that plane had been targeted for neutralization (death)? but that thanks to the heroic/expert flying of the plane (and its consequent safe water landing) the plot failed? what if some of the people onboard this flight were actually also on the hudson-miracle plane? was there ever a list of all passengers released for the miracle plane? yes, im speculating...

but regardless and seperate of any possible (passenger) connection between the 2 crashes, i personally find the hudson-miracle crash to be much more suspicious than this current one - not because of the amazing landing - but because of the allegation that birds managed to take out both engines of that plane... unlike ice in the winter, managing to hit both engines with birds is very UNUSUAL, to me at least...

meh... just thinking outloud, please dont mind me...

whistle.gif



***

edited to add video:

http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=6881966

(first half blames ice, second half auto pilot)

Posted by: rob balsamo Feb 16 2009, 04:18 AM

Although i hate to do this prior to seeing a report by the NTSB, i'll give my 2 cents thus far.

According to the ATC audio, winds were not a factor. Wind reports were within 10-20 degrees of runway (IIRC) and around 14 knots.

Also according to the same audio, it appears ice was also not a factor. Aircraft reported 1/4" Rime ice on the descent (according to Delta 1998) and were shedding the ice once level at intercept altitude (altitude to intercept the glideslope of the ILS, air was obviously warmer there and ice was shedding off the airframe) according to Cactus 1452.

The Q400 is well equipped to handle flight into known icing conditions. The aircraft is equipped with de-ice boots (inflatable rubber "boots" on leading edges which cracks off the ice) and other de-ice/anti-ice features (windshield heat, .etc). Reading other boards and those who fly the Q400, the Q400 has two automatic modes for ice removal (you can see them on the overhead Ice Panel). A slow mode and fast mode. Slow mode cycles the boots (inflates the boots/cracks off the ice), once every 3 minutes. Fast mode inflates once every minute.

If ice were a factor, the ice would have had to accumulate to "dangerous levels" in less than 3 minutes prior to flap selection if the pilots had slow mode selected. Since this was an approach, and there was obvious ice, fast mode was probably selected (need more info here from FDR/Airline policy). Which means ice would have had to accumulate to danger levels in less than a minute. However, other aircraft on the approach do not report severe icing of any kind during the same time of the approach, flying in the same air and same altitudes.

If any ice protection on the aircraft had failed, the pilots would be alerted via cockpit alerts and will run the checklist/QRH. I have never seen a checklist which allows continued flight into known icing with failed ice protection equipment. Therefore, the pilots would have had to divert to another airport (if able to find an airport with no ice, they would have had fuel for an alternate. Google: IFR Fuel Reserves), or declare an emergency and land at KBUF, which they did not, nor did they indicate any ice protection equipment fail to ATC when they supposedly reported Ice to ATC. This is why we need to see the FDR/CVR. The NTSB has made no mention of an Ice Protect fail and they have reviewed the FDR. If there was an Ice Protect Fail, the NTSB most likely would have said something to that effect by now, if they are offering AP modes to the public.

Keep in mind, the audio provided by liveatc.net is a scanner type of receiver. It seems to have been scanning tower and approach frequencies at Buffalo. When someone speaks, the scanner stops on the freq. If both freq's are 'active' at the same time, some transmission could be cut off. We need to see the "official transcript" for full ATC audio. Colgan 3407 may have reported their ice when the liveatc scanner stopped on the tower freq.

Albert brings up a good point regarding the claims of a "flat" crash. The crash scene reported up to this point claims no signs of forward momentum. Did this thing flat spin into the house?

I would like to see the full ATC transcripts from the time of DL1998 check in to land, FDR and CVR of Colgan 3407, before drawing any conclusions.

Posted by: rob balsamo Feb 16 2009, 04:44 AM

Found these on another board....

QUOTE
METARS for KBUF for the past 6 hours...

130254Z is the closest to accident time..

KBUF 130732Z 33009KT 5SM -SN BR FEW008 SCT013 OVC017 M01/M03 A2989 RMK
AO2 P0001

KBUF 130712Z 33009KT 2 1/2SM -SN BR FEW005 BKN009 OVC015 M01/M02 A2989 RMK AO2 P0001

KBUF 130654Z 33009KT 2SM -SN BR FEW004 SCT009 OVC013 M01/M02 A2988 RMK AO2 SLP126 P0001 T10111022

KBUF 130652Z 33008KT 2SM -SN BR FEW004 SCT009 OVC013 M01/M02 A2988 RMK AO2 P0001

KBUF 130612Z 32007KT 2 1/2SM -SN BR BKN007 OVC014 M01/M01 A2986 RMK AO2 CIG 003V010 P0001

KBUF 130554Z COR 32009KT 1SM R23/5000VP6000FT -SN BR BKN005 OVC010 00/M01 A2985 RMK AO2 WSHFT 0548 CIG 003V008 SLP116 P0001 60011 4/001 T00001006 10006 20000 53019

KBUF 130552Z 31010KT 1SM R23/5000VP6000FT -SN BR BKN007 OVC013 00/M01 A2985 RMK AO2 CIG 003V010 P0000

KBUF 130505Z COR 25012KT 4SM -SN BR BKN008 BKN015 OVC021 01/00 A2983 RMK AO2 CIG 005V011 P0000

KBUF 130458Z 25012KT 3SM -FZRA BR BKN008 OVC015 01/00 A2983 RMK AO2 FZRAB58SNE58 CIG 005V012 P0000

KBUF 130454Z 26014KT 3SM -SN BR SCT011 OVC021 01/00 A2983 RMK AO2 SLP109 P0004 T00060000 401060000

KBUF 130354Z 24011KT 3SM -SN BR SCT011 OVC021 01/M01 A2981 RMK AO2 SLP103 P0002 T00061006

KBUF 130254Z 24015G22KT 3SM -SN BR FEW011 BKN021 OVC027 01/M01 A2979 RMK AO2 SLP097 P0001 60004 T00061006 51015

KBUF 130154Z 24015G23KT 3SM -SN BR FEW011 OVC021 01/M01 A2978 RMK AO2 SLP092 P0001 T00061006

KBUF 130149Z 24015KT 3SM -SN BR FEW011 OVC021 01/M01 A2978 RMK AO2 P0001

Posted by: JFK Feb 16 2009, 10:12 AM

QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Feb 16 2009, 12:28 AM) *
Thanks for posting the cockpit pic JFK.


You are welcome Rob.

Has anyone else been searching for details on the flight computer for that series of plane ?

A pic from http://209.85.62.24/190/51/0/p120992/757.png document. ( screenshot of cover page only )



Volume 2 Chapter 11 Section 34 page 2

The system used in the Q-400 supplied by http://www.thalesgroup.com/index.html looks to be even more sophisticated.

Posted by: datars Feb 16 2009, 11:19 AM

Good Post!!! Nice input from everyone.

All be well
Chuck

Posted by: rob balsamo Feb 16 2009, 11:38 AM

QUOTE (JFK @ Feb 16 2009, 09:12 AM) *
You are welcome Rob.

Has anyone else been searching for details on the flight computer for that series of plane ?


Not sure exactly what 'details' you're looking for as "Flight Computer" is a bit vague. There are many computers to a Flight Management System. The central Flight Management Computer is just an end user "terminal" (if you will) which brings them all together.

The diagram you show above is the communications part of the FMS/FMC, via ACARS.

Anything specific you are looking for?

Posted by: JFK Feb 16 2009, 12:00 PM

QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Feb 16 2009, 10:38 AM) *
Not sure exactly what 'details' you're looking for as "Flight Computer" is a bit vague. There are many computers to a Flight Management System. The central Flight Management Computer is just an end user "terminal" (if you will) which brings them all together.

The diagram you show above is the communications part of the FMS/FMC, via ACARS.

Anything specific you are looking for?


A hypothetical data path originating from the airline operations data link ( or nav sat system ) to the flight control surfaces... For now.

Posted by: amazed! Feb 16 2009, 04:06 PM

This is a classic stall/spin accident, with several factors contributing. He did about half turn of the spin, which accounts for the orientation of the aircraft relative to its heading on final.

Apparently the guy had the A/P turned on, in violation of op specs and recommended procedures.

Whereas the pilot might have felt the degraded wing performance because of the ice, the A/P cannot. If there was an angle of attack indicator or recording, it would show very near to critical.

Posted by: paranoia Feb 17 2009, 01:05 AM

QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Feb 16 2009, 03:18 AM) *
Although i hate to do this prior to seeing a report by the NTSB, i'll give my 2 cents thus far.

According to the ATC audio, winds were not a factor. Wind reports were within 10-20 degrees of runway (IIRC) and around 14 knots.

Also according to the same audio, it appears ice was also not a factor....


thanks for the details about the wind/ice rob. it was exactly the kind of (technical) insight that i
needed to better understand whats (possibly) wrong with (the given cause to) this crash.

btw- did u check the video i linked at the bottom of my post (from ABCnews)?
in it they depicted the plane in a flat spin falling down out of the sky...
but thats ABC not the ntsb,
so their animation/simulation of the event doesnt really count for anything "official".

and speaking of animations,

here is NBC Nightly News's report (with their own simulation) that aired tonight:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22425001/vp/29226906#29226906

note the seeds being planted:

http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/3/2/16/f_crash3407Am_71f9aa8.jpg&srv=img32

http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/3/2/16/f_crash3407Bm_6b46583.jpg&srv=img32

http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/3/2/16/f_crash3407Cm_4478c2c.jpg&srv=img32

ohmy.gif

sad.gif

Posted by: paranoia Feb 17 2009, 01:22 AM

ETA: some wreckage that survived:

http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/3/2/16/f_crash3407Dm_e37d6fc.jpg&srv=img18

http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/3/2/16/f_crash3407Em_b4e133a.jpg&srv=img18
(one of the engines)

Posted by: rob balsamo Feb 17 2009, 01:40 AM

Saw the vid.... interesting... thanks.

Posted by: Omega892R09 Feb 17 2009, 12:49 PM

For those interested in Buffalo/Niagara airport details:

http://www.airnav.com/airport/KBUF

Note that all IAPs look to have been changed as of 15.01.09.

Now I personally would not read too much into that as from not being a professional pilot and not having looked at these details before I do not know if such changes are usual or significant.

Posted by: Graeme Feb 18 2009, 06:34 PM

QUOTE (Ricochet @ Feb 13 2009, 08:54 PM) *
Final communications.
Source. http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/archive/2009/02/13/final-communications-of-flight-3407-audio-transcript.aspx


Look guys I'm new to here and it’s my first Post.

Actually, I'm very grateful for your accepting me into the group as today I am working against my second stage of the Grieving Process, it would seem and I've been fuming mad, but only after I started to encounter what I perceived, no doubt rather non-objectively, one-sidedly, as apathy from other 9/11-Truth Groups.

I am not a Pilot and I respect you for the qualified work you do. I am a radio technician type.
But I am also an advocate for Beverley Eckert's 9/11 Testimony, that of the final conversation she had with her husband on floor 105 WTC 2. Accordingly, I did have some emotional investment with Beverley and those feelings immediately became intense on Saturday morning when I learnt of the event.

You see, I am perhaps, misguidedly trying to promote a Benefit/Tribute do of some kind for Bev Eckert who died on the flight, I still can't believe I'm saying that .. it really sucks .. Because I've been helping promote her Final testimony words with her husband, regarding an explosion they heard on the cellphone, out into the public Domain — and greatly succeeding.

I have as you'd expect taken this event rather personally. I didn't know her personally, I've never met her in person but I had accepted her offer, after much delay, to investigate the reports she made regarding the explosion at 105, explanations for which NIST, who she addressed personally (as you can imagine in her capacity), but whom were not helpful, did not come to pass to her satisfaction. I have a whole Online Document accurately describing the whole story and ... so on.

In reflection, I actually feel, though I can't be certain of it, that she came back to me, after 7 months from my enquiry to her, suggesting that I look into it, or perhaps she knew I would publicise her words widely. The BBC 5th Anniversary of 9/11 Radio Program transmissions, edited her testimony, removing the words "an explosion and" from her accounts of the phone call. This is what caught my attention. From that very moment on, which was extremely alarming and personal for me, I became passionately involved, well to my best offs, in finding out, what the darn was going on. Why would the BBC edit Beverley's explicit references to "an explosion and", from her very emotional & personal testimony.

That phone call is apparently now held in a NYC museum as part of a memorial exhibit, I learned just the other day.

Perhaps, only perhaps and I really deeply spiritually question the supplied inference from the psych books that I'm in the bargaining phase of Grief ie: "Traditionally the bargaining stage for people facing death can involve attempting to bargain with whatever God the person believes in. People facing less serious trauma can bargain or seek to negotiate a compromise ..."

Anyways, you now know who and what I am. Back onto the Flight Comms Transcription

I'm not much good at understanding this pilot talk, and I'm a long long term active Radio Ham or amateur as us limeys like to be known, yet still I can't get my head around a lot of this 'quick fire' break talk that you airline Pilots seem to use.

However, I DO UNDERSTAND WHAT "SQUARKS" are as present on ATC screens and radar. I got a tour of a Fylingdales networked SSPAR PAVE-PAWS Ballistic Missile early warning system setup. They had it all going, "SQUARK" ID's on screen and all...

So to help me I got hold of this interpretation of the transcript from what appears to be a guy who knows the lingo ... and the technology ... he may well be an ex aviator ... whatever. So, this is what our man made of it, I'm not sure it's a correct analysis or interpretation of the breakdown in communications & transponder signals etc. What do you think, but more importantly Gentlemen, and I'll not delay in asking - "What do you know".

Read on please:

"Read the transcript of the final communications from flight 3407. ...

3407 is there one moment, then gone the next.

Now, look at this line from the transcript.
17:40 - delta 1998: uh negative, delta 1998, we're just in the bottoms and nothing on the TKs
Listening to the tape, it sounds like what the pilot of 1998 said was "... nothing on the TCAS."
TCAS (pronounced T-cass) stands for Traffic Collision Avoidance System, which sends out a lower power non-directional radar pulse and listens for any aircraft transponders in the vicinity. in order to warn pilots of close approaching aircraft. So, what the pilot of Delta 1998 is saying is that at the time ATC asked him to look for a Dash-8 at 2300, 3407's radar transponders had quit working.

One final note. If the Air Traffic Controller is telling the pilot of Delta 1998 to look at 2300 feet altitude for the Dash 8, then that means the last altitude reading returned to the ATC was 2300 feet. Air Traffic radar never received a return showing a loss of altitude, which strongly suggests that the aircraft's entire electrical system quit working while the plane was still half a mile in the air."


So again, the "SQUARK", if there ever was a permanent one transmitting, I don't know, had gone at the same time as the Communications and it would appear too, the entire electrical system, by inference, of Continental 3407.

Again, many thanks, for letting me in.

.... Sorry it's so long winded ... But this is only the beginning. I want to get to the bottom of this ... I lost someone I had an investment with ... And my position as her Advocate in death remains, even more strong than it was when she was with us.

Graeme.

PS/ My Amateur Radio Callsign by the way is: GM4BRB. (Full ticket since 1972).
A sked for voice contact via Echolink can be arranged at any time.

Posted by: grizz Feb 18 2009, 06:44 PM

welcome.gif Welcome to Pilots!

Posted by: Graeme Feb 18 2009, 07:01 PM

QUOTE (grizz @ Feb 18 2009, 10:44 PM) *
welcome.gif Welcome to Pilots!

Thanks MATE!
I shall do my Profile another day, as if you need to know anymore ... hi.
Time for a Cuppa over here, it's 23.00z

Posted by: painter Feb 18 2009, 07:02 PM

Wow. Yes, welcome to the forum Graeme HowDy.gif

Posted by: rob balsamo Feb 18 2009, 07:18 PM

ILS Approach plate for KBUF Runway 23.

QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Feb 13 2009, 04:55 PM) *
http://www.avn.faa.gov/d-tpp/0901/00065IL23.PDF (pdf)


Welcome to the forum Graeme. Here is the ATC Transcript/audio i told you about via email.
QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Feb 13 2009, 10:56 PM) *
Colgan 3407 Air Traffic Control Audio and Transcript

ATC Audio provided by www.liveatc.net. Transcript provided by http://pilotsfor911truth.org. Edited for pauses and irrelevant air traffic.




Interesting to note if last radar return was at 2300 feet as pointed out by Graeme. If anyone finds altitude of last radar return, please post it here.

Posted by: Leslie Landry Mar 1 2009, 11:02 PM



FSB reports are stating today that American fascist coup forces currently engaged in a bitter struggle for control of the United States against forces loyal to President Obama, have assassinated one of the top witnesses against them by downing the plane she was a passenger on with an EMP device they have previously used to silence those ready to testify against them, and which now has killed another 50 innocent victims.

According to these reports, Beverly Eckert [photo top left] became one of the top advocates of bringing to justice those responsible for the September 11, 2001 attacks which claimed her husbands life who vowed that 'http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1220-04.htm', and after receiving President Obama's 'personal assurance' at their http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=6870794&page=1 that he was going to prosecute those involved, was in route to Chicago to present evidence to US Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald who was, likewise this past week, http://cbs2chicago.com/local/patrick.fitzgerald.chicago.2.932803.html by the new American President intent upon winning the titanic struggle he has taken on against this most ferocious of enemies.



<SPAN>As a http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/041213/13eckert.peo.htm of the Family Steering Committee for the 9/11 Independent Commission that sought truthful answers to their beloved family members deaths, Ms Eckert was reported to be 'voracious' in attempting to bring to justice the criminals responsible and had posed to the former Bush Government the following http://www.911independentcommission.org/questions.html that to this very date have still not been answered:

Posted by: Leslie Landry Mar 1 2009, 11:13 PM

for some reason..it wont let me post the rest of the artical nor the link...very odd. maybe it will work in a different format. here is the rest of the article and link to previous post



President George W. Bush: As Commander-in-Chief on the morning of 9/11, why didn’t you return immediately to Washington, D.C. or the National Military Command Center once you became aware that America was under attack? At specifically what time did you become aware that America was under attack? Who informed you of this fact?

Vice President Richard Cheney: Please discuss the advice and plans of the Energy Advisory Council specifically as they relate to pipeline development and gas/oil exploration in Afghanistan, Iraq and other Middle Eastern countries, and the feasibility of such development or exploration specifically in those two countries in 2001.

Condoleezza Rice: Regarding the meeting of Abdullah Abdullah (close aide to Massoud and now the Afghan Foreign Minister) in July , 2001, with “some top National Security Council (NSC) and State Department officials,” what information about al Qaeda did he convey?

George Tenet, Director of the CIA: Why didn't the CIA share vital information about the terrorists with the FBI?

Robert Mueller, FBI Director: Which hijackers have been positively identified by DNA? Is the FBI in possession of DNA samples for all of the hijackers?

Questions for Director Mueller Regarding the Hijackers: Please explain how the passports of Mohammed Atta and Satam al-Sugam, both on Flight 11, survived the inferno to be found on the street near the World Trade Center.

•Who found the passports and what time where they found?

•Please describe the condition of each passport.

•Please explain how the passports of two hijackers survived the explosion and inferno.

In what is, perhaps, the cruelest twist of fate in the deaths of Ms Eckert and her fellow passengers, the US propaganda media machine has been employing the exact same public manipulation tactics used in the 9/11 attacks, and where even before the fires had been extinguished or any investigation begun, it had been predetermined that ice was to be the cause of this horrific event.

So many ‘experts’ have been put before the American people in just the first day that it is now the accepted wisdom that ice was indeed the cause making all other evidence to the contrary suspect in these poor peoples minds.

But, to this ‘other’ evidence makes the more logical case supporting the FSB’s assertion that this plane crash was an assassination as just moments before the planes fatal plunge into the ground Russian satellites detected what is described as a ‘low level’ Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) emanating from an area located near the Eastern parts of Lake Erie in the United States.

About EMP weapons it is important to note: “Scientists discovered that a nuclear bomb was not necessary to create an EMP Weapon and they managed to produce EMP weapons of considerably small size, the idea was to create an EMP suitcase bomb that could be taken into an enemy building and detonated without casualties with the destruction of all electrical equipment in the building paralyzing the enemy data center.”

And, though not largely known, destructive EMP weapons are simple to make and deploy with plans and kits for EMP pulse generators and Low Power Pulse Guns available for purchase in the US for as little as $15.00.

Even more important to note is that Russian Space Authorities ability to effectively monitor EMP events over North America were ‘significantly’ degraded due to the destruction of one of their satellites this past week, and which we had reported on in our February 12th report, “Russia Issues Nuclear Attack Warning Over US Takedown Of Satellite”.

The use by US Intelligence Agencies of EMP weapons to target the planes of their enemies was first used in 1972 against Dorothy Hunt who was the wife of CIA Agent and Watergate conspirator E. Howard Hunt. Ms Hunt, and just like Ms Eckert, was on a ‘mission’ to Chicago to testify in her husbands defense when her plane was brought down on December 8, 1972, and which upon her death kept her husband in silence till upon his deathbed he confessed to being a part of the fascist assassination team that murdered President Kennedy in 1963.

To the greater significance of these events it lies in how, even to this day, the American people are still able to be continually deceived by the fascist forces manipulating them and who have faithfully followed the maxims of their German Nazi forbearers best exampled by the words of Adolph Hitler…

“Tell a lie often enough, loud enough, and long enough, and people will believe you.”

So it remains that our reporting of the truth of these events will be subsumed by the lies being poured by the minute into the minds of these Americans, who not for one second will even question the facts for themselves.

[Ed. Note: The United States government actively seeks to find, and silence, any and all opinions about the United States except those coming from authorized government and/or affiliated sources, of which we are not one. No interviews are granted and very little personal information is given about our contributors, or their sources, to protect their safety.] .

http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data/government/fraud/911_attack/news.php?q=1234561679

Posted by: Cheri Mar 1 2009, 11:16 PM

It is said that flying is safer than driving...with that in mind do any of you know of ANY OTHER spouse or significant other of any of the other 911 victims dying in a plane crash?

Posted by: amazed! Mar 1 2009, 11:19 PM

Quite a web you weave LL. Fascinating stuff.

If there had not been the weather, the deliberate take down could be more plausible.

Fate is the hunter and everything kinda came together. Sounds like an old fashioned stall/spin to me, transponder and altitude data notwithstanding.

Graeme

That sure is an interesting story about how you and Beverly were involved. salute.gif

The FAA spells it SQUAWK

Posted by: grizz Mar 1 2009, 11:45 PM

Well, if we're going to invoke Sorcha Faal, I'll share this from the http://www.myspace.com/tom_heneghan_intel. I have no idea who this guy is, and I've not been able to find anything out about him, so who knows if his blog rantings are real or imaginary?

This is from a http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=147509065&blogId=470969568 dated Feb 15.

QUOTE
STORY DEVELOPING: We are now working on a story, which deals with the sabotage of Continental Express Flight 3407 from Newark, New Jersey to Buffalo, New York. Continental Express Flight 3407 was brought down by electromagnetic pulse. The target of this sabotage, which is now an assassination, was the late 9/11 Whistleblower Beverly Eckert.

Eckert was to arrive in Buffalo, New York and then fly to Chicago, Illinois with major NEW 9/11 evidence, which was financial in nature, showing PRE 9/11 knowledge of the attacks and the involvement of the "black ops" unit of the U.S. Pentagon, along with the Israeli Mossad and the East German Stasi DVD.

Eckert was on the way to Chicago to meet with Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald with evidence showing that her phone was illegally wiretapped for five (5) years by the illegal Bushfraud NSA spy operation, “Stellar Wind”.

Eckert was also in possession of DNA samples and recent photographs showing the alleged 9/11 hijackers were still alive!

We can also reveal that Eckert had been in direct communication with then presidential candidate Barack Obama and Caroline Kennedy, daughter of assassinated President Kennedy, for the past two (2) years concerning this evidence.

The EMF electronic attack on Continental Express Flight 3407 was triggered from a site in Canada near the U.S. border at the time the aircraft turned on their de-icing machine and lowered their landing gear.

The plane was also on auto pilot at the time just as John F. Kennedy Jr.'s aircraft was when his private aircraft was brought down enroute to Hyannis Port, Massachusetts in 1999.

Final note: The corporate U.S. media filth continues to encourage this out-of-control crime spree against the American People.

Example: Both Joe Klein of TIME magazine and the aforementioned British Intelligence asset Tina Brown tipped off the Bush-Clinton Crime Family Syndicate on the activities of 9/11 Whistleblower Beverly Eckert and Ms. Eckert’s conversations with Caroline Kennedy.

We see now, folks, why both Joe Klein and Tina Brown orchestrated a massive anti-Catholic smear against then New York Senatorial candidate Caroline Bouvier Kennedy.

How dare you, you conspiratorial tyrants and kings and notable queens!



Posted by: Cheri Mar 1 2009, 11:51 PM

I find it interesting that out of a group of 911 truth activists/researches such as we are there are still some that are unwilling to believe our government could do something like this...and I am in NO way saying the woman was murdered, I am just saying that the jury is still out and we should all keep an open mind and dig deeper.

Posted by: rob balsamo Mar 2 2009, 12:33 AM

Preliminary is out from NTSB. Not much as expected...

QUOTE
NTSB Identification: DCA09MA027
Scheduled 14 CFR Part 121: Air Carrier operation of COLGAN AIR INC
Accident occurred Thursday, February 12, 2009 in Clarence, NY
Aircraft: BOMBARDIER INC DHC-8-402, registration: N200WQ
Injuries: 49 Fatal.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

On February 12, 2009, about 2217 eastern standard time (EST), a Colgan Air Inc., Bombardier Dash 8-Q400, N200WQ, d.b.a. Continental Connection flight 3407, crashed during an instrument approach to runway 23 at the Buffalo-Niagara International Airport (BUF), Buffalo, New York. The crash site was approximately 5 nautical miles northeast of the airport in Clarence Center, New York, and mostly confined to one residential house. The four flight crew and 45 passengers were fatally injured and the aircraft was destroyed by impact forces and post crash fire. There was one ground fatality. Night visual meteorological conditions prevailed at the time of the accident. The flight was a Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 121 scheduled passenger flight from Liberty International Airport (EWR), Newark, New Jersey to BUF.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20090213X13613&key=1


http://www.ntsb.gov/search/search.asp?TextRestriction=73351&searchfield=dockeywords&CiS1=%2F&CiMaxRecordsPerPage=10&SortProperty=rank&SortOrder=%5Bd%5D&CiTemplateChoice=4&HTMLQueryForm=%2Fntsb%2Fmajor.asp

Keep an eye on above link as im sure the NTSB will offer an animation based on FDR/CVR.

Also interesting to note, Southwest Pilot Union put an advisory out to its pilots...

QUOTE
Safety Alert issued to SWA Pilots regarding the ILS 23 KBUF
Safety Alert 2009-1
BUF ILS Hazard



SWAPA Pilots,

There is a potentially significant hazard concerning the ILS to runway 23 in BUF.

Information has been received indicating it is possible to obtain a significant nose pitch up, in some cases as much as 30 degrees, if the glide slope is allowed to capture before established on centerline. Pilots who are preparing to configure and land have the potential to experience abrupt pitch up, slow airspeed, and approach to stall if conditions present themselves in a certain manner.

This effect is the result of an earthen obstruction close enough to the ILS to affect the integrity of the glide slope signal. This has resulted in the issuance of an advisory given on ATIS which states that "the ILS Glide Slope for runway 23 is unusable beyond 5 degrees right of course."
When attempting to intercept the runway 23 ILS from right traffic, the ILS glide slope indication may read full deflection down. Just prior to intercept it may then move up in such as manner as to enable approach mode to capture in such a way as to result in a nose up pitch and loss of airspeed.

Southwest Airlines has issued a notice reading: "Until further notice, when executing the KBUF ILS/LOC Runway 23, DO NOT select Approach Mode until established on the localizer inbound."
This issue is being addressed on several levels in an attempt to address procedures, facilities, and communication regarding this matter. If you experience any issues related to this, please file an ASAP form and or call SWAPA Safety at SWAPA toll free.


Reading further around some other aviation forums, this 'hazard' has been around since 2001 and is NOTAM'ed. The glitch happens when being vectored for the approach from the North. Colgan was vectored from the south. But still, i found it interesting to note. You can google for more articles pertaining to this anomaly on KBUF ILS 23.

Posted by: dMole Mar 2 2009, 12:53 AM

A belated hello and welcome Graeme.
welcome.gif

Posted by: albertchampion Mar 2 2009, 02:19 AM

yes, i suppose a sudden flat spin of only downward[no forward propulsion] travel could have been the culprit. and i suppose that at such a low altitude it augured in so rapidly that the flight crew was unable to communicate.

and though i wondered about the conflagration that the local fire department reported, one of my office wallahs, from that part of the world, tells me that it would not be unusual for the residence to have 300+ gallons of heating oil in a basement tank.

but if it was a contrived catastrophe, the target was alison des forges. she knows things that the state would prefer not be revealed about ruanda, burundi, the congo. things of which she is, has been, cognizant.

Posted by: amazed! Mar 2 2009, 10:51 AM

Grizz

I am skeptical of the blog you offered. It was not established that JFK's autopilot was on, and my bet is that it was NOT. Just my opinion, but if he had it on, most likely he would still be with us.

Both accidents are relatively common type aviation accidents.

As for all the allegations about Beverly and her new evidence, if that is true I hope she confided in SOMEBODY somewhere along the line. We can only speculate, but it seems going through Buffalo from Newark is a strange way to get to Chicago.

Posted by: grizz Mar 2 2009, 10:58 AM

QUOTE (amazed! @ Mar 2 2009, 06:51 AM) *
Grizz

I am skeptical of the blog you offered.

As am I. I only put it here because we had the Sorcha Faal take on the situation, and there are some similarities. I look at it as a way to discern disinformation by displaying it.

If you read some of Tom Henegan's blogs, you'll see that either he has inside information that no one else does, or he's a nutcase.

QUOTE
As for all the allegations about Beverly and her new evidence, if that is true I hope she confided in SOMEBODY somewhere along the line. We can only speculate, but it seems going through Buffalo from Newark is a strange way to get to Chicago.

Remember, she was going to Buffalo to celebrate her late husband's birthday, according to media accounts.

Posted by: amazed! Mar 2 2009, 11:12 AM

Thanks Grizz.

Posted by: kgray1 Mar 20 2009, 02:57 AM

QUOTE (JFK @ Feb 13 2009, 09:01 PM) *
http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/578574.html


I'd like to think that our elected officials had nothing to do with the death of my cousin Elly Kausner. But I wouldn't put it passed them to cover up anything from 911. I was brought up in Clarence and went to Clarence Senior High School. And yes, once again, my cousin was a passenger on that plane. When are people going to open their eyes and see what type of people they are really electing to office? That will do anything for their own personal gain!

Posted by: rob balsamo Mar 20 2009, 03:01 AM

Welcome kgray!

By the way folks.. be nice to kgray.. i know him personally... good friend. wink.gif

Posted by: dMole Mar 20 2009, 03:04 AM

Hello and welcome kgray1. I'm sorry to hear of your loss. I've lost a few friends/family to cancer in the recent past myself.

Posted by: kgray1 Mar 20 2009, 03:04 AM

QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Mar 20 2009, 02:01 AM) *
Welcome kgray!

By the way folks.. be nice to kgray.. i know him personally... good friend. wink.gif

Thanks for the vote of confidence Rob! And we may be roommates in the future too. Right?

Posted by: rob balsamo Mar 20 2009, 03:14 AM

QUOTE (kgray1 @ Mar 20 2009, 03:04 AM) *
Thanks for the vote of confidence Rob! And we may be roommates in the future too. Right?



TN is looking promising again.. smile.gif

Posted by: Graeme Apr 3 2009, 03:52 PM

QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Mar 2 2009, 05:33 AM) *
Preliminary is out from NTSB. Not much as expected...


http://www.ntsb.gov/search/search.asp?TextRestriction=73351&searchfield=dockeywords&CiS1=%2F&CiMaxRecordsPerPage=10&SortProperty=rank&SortOrder=%5Bd%5D&CiTemplateChoice=4&HTMLQueryForm=%2Fntsb%2Fmajor.asp

Keep an eye on above link as im sure the NTSB will offer an animation based on FDR/CVR.

Also interesting to note, Southwest Pilot Union put an advisory out to its pilots...


Reading further around some other aviation forums, this 'hazard' has been around since 2001 and is NOTAM'ed. The glitch happens when being vectored for the approach from the North. Colgan was vectored from the south. But still, i found it interesting to note. You can google for more articles pertaining to this anomaly on KBUF ILS 23.


Just wanted to profer thanks to Rob for the updates on Ice Related Probabilities in relation to this flight.
In the Grapevine, I've heard that it's going to be a WHOLE YEAR, before the NTSB will be able to release it's final conclusions on 3407. Delay being for legal reasons involving the families and so forth.

Posted by: rob balsamo Apr 28 2009, 12:17 AM

QUOTE
NTSB Advisory
National Transportation Safety Board
Washington, DC 20594
March 25, 2009

UPDATE ON NTSB INVESTIGATION INTO CRASH OF COLGAN AIR DASH-8 NEAR BUFFALO, NEW YORK; PUBLIC HEARING SCHEDULED


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


In its continuing investigation into the crash of Colgan Air flight 3407 in Clarence Center, New York, the National Transportation Safety Board has released the following factual information.

On February 12, 2009, about 10:17 p.m. Eastern Standard Time (EST), a Colgan Air Inc., Bombardier Dash 8-Q400, N200WQ, d.b.a. Continental Connection flight 3407, crashed during an instrument approach to runway 23 at the Buffalo-Niagara International Airport (BUF), Buffalo, New York. The crash site was approximately 5 nautical miles northeast of the airport in Clarence Center, New York, and mostly confined to one residential house. The 4 crew members and 45 passengers were fatally injured and the airplane was destroyed by impact forces and post crash fire. There was one ground fatality. Night visual meteorological conditions prevailed at the time of the accident. The flight was a Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 121 scheduled passenger flight from Liberty International Airport (EWR), Newark, New Jersey to Buffalo.

The NTSB has voted to conduct a public hearing on this accident. The hearing, which will be held May 12 – 14, 2009 at the NTSB's Board Room and Conference Center in Washington, D.C., will cover a wide range of safety issues including: icing effect on the airplane’s performance, cold weather operations, sterile cockpit rules, crew experience, fatigue management, and stall recovery training. The public hearing is part of the Safety Board’s efforts to develop all appropriate facts for the investigation.

“The tragedy of flight 3407 is the deadliest transportation accident in the United States in more than 7 years,” Acting Chairman Mark V. Rosenker, who will chair the hearing, said. “The circumstances of the crash have raised several issues that go well beyond the widely discussed matter of airframe icing, and we will explore these issues in our investigative fact-finding hearing.”

The hearing will be held “en banc,” meaning that all Members of the NTSB will sit on the Board of Inquiry. Parties that will participate in the hearing will be announced at a later time.

The aircraft wreckage has been moved from the accident site to a secure location for follow-on inspections as may be needed.

A preliminary examination of the airplane systems has revealed no indication of pre-impact system failures or anomalies. Investigators will perform additional examinations on the dual distribution valves installed in the airplane’s de-ice system. The de-ice system removes ice accumulation from the leading edges of the wings, horizontal tail, and vertical tail through the use of pneumatic boots. The dual distribution valves, which transfer air between the main bleed air distribution ducts and the pneumatic boots, were removed from the airplane for the examination.

The airplane maintenance records have been reviewed and no significant findings have been identified at this time.

The ATC group has completed a review of recordings of controller communications with the flight crew during the accident flight and conducted interviews with air traffic controllers on duty at the time of the accident. The group has no further work planned at this time.

Further review of the weather conditions on the night of the accident revealed the presence of variable periods of snow and light to moderate icing during the accident airplane’s approach to the Buffalo airport.

Examination of the FDR data and preliminary evaluation of airplane performance models shows that some ice accumulation was likely present on the airplane prior to the initial upset event, but that the airplane continued to respond as expected to flight control inputs throughout the accident flight. The FDR data also shows that the stall warning and protection system, which includes the stick shaker and stick pusher, activated at an airspeed and angle-of-attack (AOA) consistent with that expected for normal operations when the de-ice protection system is active. The airplane’s stick shaker will normally activate several knots above the actual airplane stall speed in order to provide the flight crew with a sufficient safety margin and time to initiate stall recovery procedures. As a result of ice accumulation on the airframe, an airplane’s stall airspeed increases. To account for this potential increase in stall speed in icing conditions, the Dash 8-Q400’s stall warning system activates at a higher airspeed than normal when the de-ice system is active in-flight to provide the flight crew with adequate stall warning if ice accumulation is present.

Preliminary airplane performance modeling and simulation efforts indicate that icing had a minimal impact on the stall speed of the airplane. The FDR data indicates that the stick shaker activated at 130 knots, which is consistent with the de-ice system being engaged. FDR data further indicate that when the stick shaker activated, there was a 25-pound pull force on the control column, followed by an up elevator deflection and increase in pitch, angle of attack, and Gs. The data indicate a likely separation of the airflow over the wing and ensuing roll two seconds after the stick shaker activated while the aircraft was slowing through 125 knots and while at a flight load of 1.42 Gs. The predicted stall speed at a load factor of 1 G would be about 105 knots. Airplane performance work is continuing.

Since returning from on-scene, the Operations & Human performance group have conducted additional interviews with flight crew members who had recently flown with and/or provided instruction to the accident crew, as well as personnel at Colgan Air responsible for providing training of flight crews and overseeing the management and safety operations at the airline. The group also conducted interviews with FAA personnel responsible for oversight of the Colgan certificate, which included the Principal Operations Inspector (POI) and aircrew program manager for the Dash 8 Q-400. The team has also continued its review of documentation, manuals, and other guidance pertaining to the operation of the Dash 8 Q-400 and training materials provided to the Colgan Air flight crews.

The Operations & Human Performance group continues to investigate and review documentation associated with the flight crew’s flight training history and professional development during their employment at Colgan as well as prior to joining the company.

Post-accident toxicological testing of the flight crew was performed by the FAA Civil Aerospace Medical Institute (CAMI) toxicology lab. Specimens taken from the first officer were negative for alcohol, illicit substances, and a wide range of prescription and over the counter medications. Specimens taken from the captain were negative for alcohol and illicit substances, and positive for diltiazem, a prescription blood pressure medication that had been reported to and approved for his use by the Federal Aviation Administration.

The Safety Board is also examining several other areas potentially related to the accident, including:

The circumstances of a recent event involving a Dash 8-Q400, operated by Colgan Air, in which the airplane’s stick shaker activated during approach to the Burlington International Airport (BTV) in Burlington, Vermont. A preliminary review of the FDR data from that flight shows the momentary onset of the stick shaker during the approach phase of flight. The airplane subsequently landed without incident. NTSB investigators have conducted interviews with the pilots and check airman on board this flight and will continue to investigate the incident.
Reports of airplane deviations resulting from distortion of the instrument landing system (ILS) signal for runway 23 at BUF. There is an existing Notice to Airmen (NOTAM) related to this distortion condition. To date, investigation into these reports has not revealed any connection to the accident flight.
-30-

Media Contact: Keith Holloway, (202) 314-6100
Keith.Holloway@ntsb.gov


http://www.ntsb.gov/pressrel/2009/090325.html

Posted by: Ricochet Apr 28 2009, 02:03 PM

Flight 3407 and swine flu connection. FWIW.
http://aconstantineblacklist.blogspot.com/2009/04/flight-3407-crash-one-passenger-worked.html

Posted by: paranoia May 12 2009, 11:45 PM

"Buffalo crash: Pilots acted 'just opposite' of normal practices"

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-05-12-buffalo-crash-side_N.htm

(article includes links to NTSB animation that inlcudes alleged communication transmissions)



"Family members watch NTSB hearings"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ieCJ46u_-g




NTSB animation:
http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2009/Buffalo-NY/AnimationDescription.htm


other new ntsb:
http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2009/Buffalo-NY/IIC_presentation_Colgan_Public_Hearing.pdf

http://www.ntsb.gov/pressrel/2009/090508b.html



QUOTE
http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2009/Buffalo-NY/Default.html

"The National Transportation Safety Board will hold a 3-day public hearing on Colgan Air, Inc. Flight 3407, Bombardier DHC8-400, N200WQ beginning on Tuesday, May 12, 2009, at 9:00 a.m. The hearing will be open to the public and will take place in the Board Room and Conference Center at 429 L'Enfant Plaza, S.W., Washington, D.C.

This hearing will also be telecast on the Board’s website,
at http://www.ntsb.gov/Events/hearing_sched.htm.

The goal of the upcoming hearing is for the Safety Board to learn more about the Colgan Air, Inc. aviation accident. The Board will invite expert witnesses to provide sworn testimony. Additionally, several organizations will be granted “party status” to the hearing so that they may question the witnesses directly. The witnesses and parties will represent a range of aviation-related communities and other officials who provide oversight. "



full docket:
http://www.ntsb.gov/Dockets/Aviation/DCA09MA027/default.htm

Posted by: albertchampion May 14 2009, 12:33 AM

it is an odd transcript of the cvr.

and the proposition that the flight crew didn't understand what a "shaker" indicated really puzzles me.

and the response of "lifting" the nose really confuses me. that is the absolute contradiction to a stall.

which propels me to ask this question, are the jockeys of these regional aircraft that lame?

more confusing is the recording of the last minutes of this flight...as the icing is noticed and discussed. and this crew apparently energizes no efforts to escape those conditions. was this crew brain-damaged?

i never piloted an aircraft with passengers other than my immediate family. and i never ignored the lethality of icing conditions. i encountered icing, i worked feverishly to escape.

one is forced to ask, did this flight crew not recognize the lethality of their situation?

i scratch my head. and wonder if i shall ever entrust my life to such idiots ever again.

it caused me to think about the beech 1900's from gillette, wy to denver. in the summer. when they almost always flew overgross. i don't do that now.

Posted by: Graeme May 14 2009, 08:23 PM

I see that NTSB are publishing on 3407 already, I hadn't expected this so early.

Can someone explain from:— http://www.ntsb.gov/Dockets/Aviation/DCA09MA027/418693.pdf, what the terms VOR, ACARS & ARINC translate to, as per page 30.

I just got ignited on this story again, after reading the following, published on the 14th May:
"I read the transcript of the flight and it seems like the ‘Stick Pusher’ Mechanism kicked in and destroyed the plane without any warning or reason. This was not an accident. Also, did anyone here notice that the AVSIM website was destroyed by hackers. Some members of the FLIGHTSIM community were very interested in how this plane crashed and maybe that’s why the website was attacked ..." on another important, globally renowned news comments page. It's true, that website is down, entirely at this time

From: http://www.ntsb.gov/Dockets/Aviation/DCA09MA027/418693.pdf Page 58.

22:12:05.0
HOT-2
I've never seen icing conditions. I've never deiced. I've never seen any—
I've never experienced any of that. I don't want to have to experience that
and make those kinds of calls. you know I'dve freaked out. I'dve have like
seen this much ice and thought oh my gosh we were going to crash.

22:16:37.1
HOT-2
I put the flaps
22:16:40.2
CAM
[sound of two
22:16:42.2
HOT-1
[sound of grunt]
22:16:45.8
HOT-2
should the gear
22:16:46.8
HOT-1
gear up oh #.
22:16:50.1
CAM
[increase in ambient
22:16:51.9
HOT-1
we're down.
22:16:51.9
CAM
[sound of thump]
22:16:52.0
HOT-2
we're [sound of scream]
22:16:53.9
END OF TRANSCRIPT
END OF RECORDING

This is the nightmare recurring isn't it. This one isn't going away. Plus I have a load on the Swine Flu pandemic, see the appropriate post for that.

Posted by: Graeme May 14 2009, 09:30 PM

Please analyse and reply with your informed knowledge as to the mechanism by which turbo-fan blades bend in the opposite sense to engine rotation, when under normal conditions:
http://www.ntsb.gov/Dockets/Aviation/DCA09MA027/417219.pdf

1) PP15.
"Most, but not all of the blades were bent in the direction opposite rotation, while a few appeared to be fairly straight (PHOTO 29).
Four (4) blades exhibited large portions of their airfoil missing with one (1) blade fractured near the root. Mud
was observed up to the stage 1 LPC vanes."


2) pp9.
"All the stage 1 LPC stator vanes were present and intact, with some exhibiting LE tears, LE
airfoils bent in both the direction of rotation and in the direction opposite rotation, and some trailing edge (TE) impact damage and material loss near the outer shroud (PHOTO 8). Looking through the stage 1 LPC stator
vanes, the stage 2 LPC blades were visible. All the stage 2 LPC blades were present; most blade tips were
curled in the direction opposite rotation, and some exhibited material loss. Dirt and mud was visible up to the
stage 2 LPC blades (PHOTO 9)."

Gram.

Posted by: albertchampion May 14 2009, 09:30 PM

you are correct about one aspect of this: the alacrity of the ntsb to produce "findings". you can contrast this to other accidents where months elapsed before "findings" were released.

and of course, you can contrast it to the commercial aircraft collisions with terrain that occurred on 11/09/01. accidents that the ntsb decided to ignore. somehow determined that those collisions with terrain were undeserving of any investigation. as i have written previously, the only other one i know of that was as shunned by the ntsb was the jfkjr collision with terrain[or should that be water?].

it is entirely possible that it was a case of actual pilot[s] error. if the cvr is accurate, when i read the cavalier manner that the flight crew dealt with "icing", i have to think that they were suicidal. i just cannot imagine any pilots being in those atmospheric conditions and dealing with them as the cvr that was released reveals.

but that is just my opinion.

the most interesting aspect of this "accident" is how NATIONAL PROPAGANDA RADIO dealt with it. it jumped on the "fatigue" factor that envelops the flight crews of these "puddle jumpers". if accurate, there is something wrong with an airline structure that allows for flight crews to fly in from way far away, then to command a "greyhound of the air".

i don't think that even greyhound would allow a bus driver to drive for 5+ hours to get to a bus driving assignment. but i could be wrong about this.

in my opinion, irrespective of this "accident", we have a very "broken" commercial air transport system. which no one wants to mend because it will cost money.

my response to that pov is that there comes a time when the real costs of society/civilization must be borne. at some stage, everyone is going to have to become more impoverished if they want to continue to live in a country where the infrastructure functions.

and there is a corollary to this precept, you can get the infrastructure improvements without becoming impoverished.

but the nation must decide to abandon its homicidal imperialism. must dismantle the military industrial armature that is bankrupting the usa. must withdraw from all our overseas military entanglements.

and dismantle the federal reserve.

do that, and the usa could become the beacon on the hill once again. but at the moment, this country has been driven to be the dungeon beneath the sewer

Posted by: DoYouEverWonder May 14 2009, 09:44 PM

QUOTE (albertchampion @ May 14 2009, 09:30 PM) *
you are correct about one aspect of this: the alacrity of the ntsb to produce "findings". you can contrast this to other accidents where months elapsed before "findings" were released.


I thought it was odd/unusual how willing and how fast they released the cockpit recordings. Yet, we're still not allowed to hear any of the recordings from 9/11.

Posted by: rob balsamo Jul 29 2009, 01:48 AM

Unfortunately i missed this when it was published by the NTSB back in May (was super busy with the move.. etc).

Anyway. .here is the animation as paranoia linked on the previous page... this one has ATC transmissions as well....



Anyone can play Monday Morning QB and many have.. but now that the animation is out.... A few notes -

In the 328, we were taught to "fly out of the stall". Meaning, when you get the shaker.. (and i still remember the callouts... kinda)

Max Thrust - Flaps 20
Pos Rate - Gear up
(hold level as airspeed increases)
Ref - Flaps 12
Ref +20 - Flaps up
Go Around Checklist

Im not sure how the Q400 crews are trained, but the 328 has A LOT of power to "fly out of a stall" even on one engine. I doubt the Q400 has such power. So i would expect they would allow a 200 foot loss for recovery in training... (we were only allowed a 50 foot loss during sim training).

According to the animation, the Pilot Flying never "broke" the stall. It looks like they were trained to "fly out of it" instead of "breaking" the stall (pushing the nose down to 'break' the stall). Instead, they gained 200 feet by pulling back too much, further aggravating the condition they were in, combined with cross control rudder/aileron input which caused a spin to the right.

The FO seemed like she noticed the airspeed was really low and said "uhhhh" when asked for flaps 15 which initiated and aggravated the stall. FO should have called "airspeed" before putting in the flaps.

If the animation is accurate... its the typical domino effect you see in many accidents... looks like crew error.

Sad...

Posted by: rob balsamo Jul 29 2009, 02:13 AM

Colgan Landing Stall Profile

http://www.ntsb.gov/dockets/aviation/dca09ma027/417477.pdf
(page 4)

Posted by: paranoia Feb 8 2010, 12:34 AM

just wanted to add this overlooked coincedence/irony:

QUOTE
(6:00 a.m.) September 11, 2001: Two Hijackers Fly to Boston

Mohamed Atta and Abdulaziz Alomari’s flight from Portland to Boston takes off. [Federal Bureau of Investigation, 10/4/2001] Their plane, Colgan Air Flight 5930, is a 19-seat Beechcraft 1900. [Federal Bureau of Investigation, 2001; 9/11 Commission, 8/26/2004, pp. 3 Fellow passengers Vincent Meisner and Roger Quirion will later say Atta and Alomari board separately, keep quiet, and do not draw attention to themselves. [Chicago Sun-Times, 9/16/2001; Washington Post, 9/16/2001] Quirion, says: “They struck me as business travelers. They were sitting down, talking, seems like they were going over some paperwork.” [CBS News, 10/12/2001]

http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?day_of_9/11=dayOf911&timeline=complete_911_timeline



see also:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/14094277/T7-B17-FBI-302s-of-Interest-Colgan-Air-Fdr-Entire-Contents

Posted by: starviego Apr 8 2010, 01:11 AM

If you read the reports of the witnesses on the ground, it appears that engine problems could have doomed this plane--


NTSB Dockets, File 431227--witness statements

pg2 of 131
Vicki Braun
plane engine had ''echo sound'' then sounded like the engine stopped then heard a ''boom''

pg2 of 131
Hank Cole
plane didn't sound right, engine sounded like it was ''revving'' then cut out and then he heard a bang.

pg 4 of 131 Maha Abdallah
Before the plane impacted the ground, Abdallah noticed sparks coming from the plane.

pg6 of 131
Shannon Alessandra
Just prior to the airplane crashing, the engines made a ''weird sound.''

pg7 of 131
Jean Andreassen
Andreassen stated that she heard strange noises from the engines

pg8 of 131
Kristen and Aaron Archambeault
They both described the engine noise as ''sputtering''

pg9 of 131
Stanley Barnas
...he saw a bright orange flash out of the living room window. ... After the flash they heard a loud crash. Barnas is 100percent certain the saw the bright orange flash before the crash.

pg11 of 131
Michele Beiter
Michele stated the noise, 'skipped' and and she was releived it stopped, and then it started again. Michel is positive there was a skip. Michele further described everthing she heard as, 'Noise, skip, noise, loud noise.'

pg13 of 131
Robert Bijak
The engines sounded like a metallic rattle and remined Bijak of a car engine with no oil in it.

pg14 of 131
Tin Bojarski
The plane did not sound right and sort of sounded like a car with a broken muffler.

pg17 of 131
Ronald Braunscheidel
...he heard a very loud spitting and sputtering sound of a plane engine flying overhead. Braunscheidel described the noise as a car without a muffler.

pg 18 of 131
Sharon Brennan
Brennan believed the plane was... maybe in trouble based on the noise.

pg22 of 131
Patricia Burns
Burns was able to see most of the left side of the airplane and noticed flames coming from the rear of the aircraft.

pg28 of 131
Dan Cizdziel
...heard a sputtering, binging noise to the north....

pg42 of 131
Doug Errick
Errick indicated that as the plane got closer the engines became very rough. Errick thought the engines were coming on and off, almost like engines were trying to come back on, but couldn't remain running. Errick thought the engines were changing RPMs rapidly.

pg49 of 131
Mary Grefrath
Grefrath recalled that the engine sounded like it was spuddering.

pg66 of 131
Jean Larocque
Larocque... stated he heard puttering plane... Larocque reported that the engines were not making a uniform sound.

pg 77 of 131
Molly Merlo
...she heard the airplane make a ''gurgling'' sound.

pg81 of 131
Marianne Neri
The engine noise did not sound like a normal plane, but more like a helicopter. It was obvious something was wrong with the engines.

pg85 of 131
Angela Pillo
The sound was very loud and ''rough,'' as if the engine was having trouble. The sound was further described as sounding like a ''lawn mower''

pg91 of 131
Lisa Rott
....she heard a consistent low grumbling sound that she believed to be a propeller plane. Rott advised that the sound the plane's engines was not smooth and did not sound like other propeller planes that she has heard in the past.

pg96 of 131
Kenneth Smith
...heard a big bag then continued to hear the sound of airplane engines.

pg89 of 131
Joseph Summers
...heard a plane which was very low and didn't sound normal. Mr. Summers cited a ''rambling noise'' which sounded as if an engine was not running properly.

pg101 of 131
Rick Telfair
Telfair stated he then heard a winding or grinding noise, then a screeching or grinding noise and approximately 20-30 seconds later heard a large boom... Telfair further described the noise of the engine as fighting, almost as though they were trying to go faster but couldn't, not accelerating but distressed.

pg 102 of 131
Denise Trabucco
Trabucco described the sound as a humming, similar to a transformer prior to it blowing. Aafter the humming, Trabucco heard a popping sound. ... About a minute after the humming and popping sound, Trabucco and her family felt a vibration that felt a little like an earthquake.

pg105 of 131
Lorraine Unverzart
The airplane engines made a ''chugging'' sound, similar to a ''spark plug misfiring.''

pg106 of 131
Louis Vitello
...he heard the plane engines sputtering as it approached, and then heard a ''poppomg sound.'' Immediately after that Mr. Vitello heard ''grinding'' noised, stating that the noises reminded him of gears grinding together, sounding like the gears were missing teeth.

pg124 of 131
David Wolf
...the engines were making an unusual ''shuttering'' sound

pg126 of 131
Melissa Wols
She stated she heard the plane.... grinding and sputtering as it approached and passed over his residence. Wols advised it sounded similar to what grinding metal would sound like.

pg129 of 131
Rita Zirnheld
It ''sounded like sputtering'' and ''engine was coughing.''

pg130 of 131
Barbara Garret
She said the plane engine was making loud noises, as though metal was banging and clattering.

------------


This theory is backed by some of the initial reports of the incident:


http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2009/02/investigators_gathe r_wreckage.html
''....initial reports said the plane was held up due to mechanical problems''
(explaining why the plane took off two hours late from Newark)

http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/577959.html
(Erie County Executive Chris)Collins said that .... crew members had reported mechanical problems as they approached Buffalo Niagara International Airport.



I have been posting this on other pilot-oriented forums but have got nothing but grief for it. Though I don't think the witness statements can so easily be ignored.


/

Posted by: Graeme Jul 28 2010, 05:36 PM

QUOTE (starviego @ Apr 8 2010, 06:11 AM) *
If you read the reports of the witnesses on the ground, it appears that engine problems could have doomed this plane--


NTSB Dockets, File 431227--witness statements


I have been posting this on other pilot-oriented forums but have got nothing but grief for it. Though I don't think the witness statements can so easily be ignored.


I find that stuff very interesting and have heard other similar web-based reports. The official Investigation still dwells on Pilot-Under training and the whole very valid and massively important issue of Airlines De-regulation in the 'US'. This accident has become an absolute benchmark, forcing the airline industry to re-evaluate everything it does. — " ... the term watershed accident comes out frequently regarding this incident".
— Bill Voss President Flight Safety Foundation

However, I don't buy this official explanation as anything more than convenient. I did the math, roughly. The chance of an epoused pair (Eckert and Husband) dying in air-related accidents, directly and indirectly are pushing 1 in a Trillion, that's working from the late 1990's Risk Assessment Figures for civilian airline flying, that I heard of being in the order of 1 in a Million chance of dying in an air accident.

But watch Here, ONLINE the full 2010 PBS Documentary entitled: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/flyingcheap/view/ - http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/flyingcheap/view/
'The harrowing tale of Colgan 3407'.

I just did, and my own review is:
It's actually quite damning of endemic back-scratching, lack of training, a dearth of inexperience and quick promotions within the regional de-regulated airlines and cites the nepotism and protective attitude of the FAA towards the major carriers in their 'hands-off' relationship with their lesser regional partners. Until COLGAN 3407 that is.

Now they're in a world of pain. So, let's keep reminding them, that we're all watching
....

Posted by: truthmatters Jul 29 2010, 10:18 PM

I watched the video of the animation. At first I was able to hear the crew's voices responding. When the trouble began all I saw were their alleged words printed on the screen but no sound from them. How come? How do we know that is what they said? Why was there suddenly no audio for the crew when they supposedly were talking?

Posted by: Graeme Aug 1 2010, 12:40 PM

ATC Audio provided by www.liveatc.net. Transcript provided by http://pilotsfor911truth.org. Edited for pauses and irrelevant air traffic.

Let's listen this early Tube posted by Pilots for 9/11-Truth on the day (Friday 13th, 2009), again ...

QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Feb 14 2009, 03:56 AM) *
Colgan 3407 Air Traffic Control Audio and Transcript

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=16320&view=findpost&p=10764620

ATC Audio provided by www.liveatc.net. Transcript provided by http://pilotsfor911truth.org. Edited for pauses and irrelevant air traffic.


Remember this is just the ATC to all aircraft in the area of approach, right? Excuse the lack of terminology. ATC, (after it is established Colgan 3407 has fallen out of the skies) , ask other approach aircraft what their current experience of ice is, and whether they are having any erratic variation on the data from the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_landing_system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_landing_system

The Cockpit Voice Recorder rescued from the Buffalo Crash site revealed the in-cockpit communications. "We're Down" were the last words, if I remember correctly, and which pretty much sum their experience up. But yes, the Squark transponder and all electronic communications Ground-to-Air / Air-to-Ground for Colgan 3407 seem to have been immediately interrupted and ...

Reports by civilian witnesses from the ground repeatedly mention Engine sounds being erratic 'sputtering' off and on ...
This could refer to all four engines. I'm no air-mechanic, but I presume that in these modern electronic controlled planes total onboard electronics failure would account for these factors:

1) No comms Ground-to-Air / Air-to-Ground.
2) No squark signal on the ATC screens. ('Just dropped off the radar')
2) Global Engine Failure. (all four props)

So, where does the Rime Ice excuse play in this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_rime

The Other Pilots on approach to Buffalo are clearly heard in this tube saying that they've had small build-ups of ice for the last 5 thru 20 miles and the last account says it's peeling off the windscreen, hence not causing difficulty for or affecting anyone else currently on approach to Buffalo. They all seem to be coping.
And that's precisely when we have to pull out the magic 'rabbit in the hat' explanation of pilot incompetance.

If it wasn't for the very convenient out-clause of these allegedly incompetant pilots being unable to cope with a little Rime Ice build-up, then the NTSB may have been forced to investigate this Watershed Aircrash more intently, looking at reasons for the total outages I noted above.

But was there a total electronics outage onboard Colgan 3407? That's the remaining question which I've NEVER seen addressed by anyone. Was that data registered in the FDR (Flight Data Recorder)? Does that equipment run off autonymous systems? Excuse me if I've missed something on other posts regarding that.

Was there a power / control / communications & primary electronics outage on this plane?
If provable not, then we're home and dry aren't we. Lucky us!

Posted by: starviego Oct 6 2010, 12:09 AM

Here is more evidence that engine failure, not pilot error, was the true factor in this crash:


File ID 417219 from the NTSB Dockets, ''Powerplant Group field notes,'' does seem to indicate that the left prop may have thrown three 'counterweight' assemblies right before the crash, which may have caused some of the shaft bearings to disintegrate(or vise versa). Remember a few of the ear-witnesses heard a sound like metal grinding on metal.


No 1 engine-

pg2of23
-Three of the six counterweights remained attached to their respective propeller blade outer sleeve, while the other three had become separated and were not recovered by the Powerplant Group.

pg7of23
The No.15 roller bearing, located on the aft side of the bull gear, was present and the cage was fractured with two(2) of the roller elements missing. ...the No.19 roller bearing rolling elements were visible and one(1) roller was missing. ....The No.2.5 roller bearing cage was still attached to the front of the LP shaft. The cage appeared intact but all the roller elements were missing.

pg8of23
The outer diameter of the PT(power turbine) shaft exhibited circumferential rub mark(s) from the fractured end to almost the shoulder where the shaft diameter changes.

pg10of23
The three(3) blade positions sequentially around about the top(as the propellor was situated on the ground) had complete sets of counterweight assemblies(counter weight arm, counterweight, and rear collar) still attached, while the three(3) blade positions that were buried in the ground were missing their complete counterweight assembly.

It should be noted that none of the aforementioned damage was reported for the No.2 engine.


A few of the eyewitness accounts were consistent with an engine fire--

File ID 431227
pg4of131, Maha Abdallah
Before the plane impacted the ground, Abdallah noticed sparks coming from the plane.

pg9of131, Stanley Barnas
...he saw a bright orange flash out of the living room window. ...Barnas is 100percent certain that he saw the bright orange flash before the crash.

pg15of131, Cindy Borgosz
...saw a bright orange glow through the west window.... the orange glow was not flickering. ....the orange glow diminished, then there was a large boom and an orange 'mushroom cloud.''

pg22of131, Patricial Burns
...noticed flames coming from the rear of the aircraft.

pg96of131, Kaitlin Smith
...she saw a red/orange light in the sky.... after the flash, the sky darkened and then she heard a big bang.



They said they never found the missing counterweights. Maybe they should have looked harder--

pg27of131, Mary Cimato
The Cimato's also pointed out three large holes in a pond located behind their house... ... The previous day the entire pond was frozen over, and the morning after the crash they observed holes in the ice.


/

Posted by: Graeme Nov 11 2010, 12:59 PM

QUOTE (starviego @ Oct 6 2010, 04:09 AM) *
Here is more evidence that engine failure, not pilot error, was the true factor in this crash:
[...]


Dear Starviego.

You have quoted plenty of interesting yet unverifiable from my position 'witness statements' in namely:

1) NTSB Dockets, File 431227--witness statements
2) NTSB Dockets, File 417219--witness statements

Could you provide internet FOIA URL's to visit, to allow us to verify these these alleged witness statements.

Thankyou very much.

Posted by: starviego Nov 17 2010, 12:39 PM

You can access the documents here:

http://www.ntsb.gov/dockets/aviation/DCA09MA027/

---------------------------

new


The official version has it that the plane plunged to the ground at a very steep angle. However, the accounts of a few of the witnesses indicate the plane was already flying very low and level while it was still a long way from impact. This suggests that the pilot had re-gained control of the plane after the stall, and hence something else caused the final, fatal plunge to earth. To wit:

(From the FBI docs* on the investigation of the Colgan flt 3407 crash)

pg123 of 166
On the evening of 2-12-09, (Redacted) heard a low flying plane near his house that was unlike the sound of other airplanes he has heard nearby. The aircraft was flying so low that it made him shriek. (Redacted) was later watching television and saw the breaking news coverage of the airplane crash and then realized the he is only 6-8 miles from the crash site and that the airplane he heard was likely the one that crashed.

pg124 of 166
On the night of Thursday, February 12, 2009, (Redacted) was on duty (Redacted). At 10:15 pm or 10:30pm, (Redacted) was outside disposing of garbage, when he heard a plane which was very low and didn't sound normal. (Redacted) cited a "rambling noise" which sounded as if an engine was not running properly.
Administrative: (Redacted) is approximately ten miles due East of the crash site.

pg146 of 166
At approximately 10:15pm on February 12, 2009 (Redacted) heard a low flying plane by her house. She said the plane was making loud noises, as though metal was banging and clattering. (Redacted) said she lives 12-15 miles away from the crash site, but believes the plane she heard was flight 3407. She did not see the plane in flight.


Another witness confirmed that the plane was flying level before the crash:

pg20 of 166
It was flying approximately two to three times the height of the tree line, and the airplane's flying lights were on. ... At first the airplane seemed to be flying level, but then it suddenly went nose down and crashed. ((Redacted) made her hand flat to describe the airplane flying level, and made an abrupt downward motion).




*These documents were mailed to me by the FBI after I filed a FOIA request. Due to financial limitations on my part they are not yet posted on the net.

Posted by: Graeme Nov 24 2010, 11:57 AM

QUOTE (starviego @ Nov 17 2010, 04:39 PM) *
You can access the documents here:

http://www.ntsb.gov/dockets/aviation/DCA09MA027/

---------------------------

new


The official version has it that the plane plunged to the ground at a very steep angle. However, the accounts of a few of the witnesses indicate the plane was already flying very low and level while it was still a long way from impact. This suggests that the pilot had re-gained control of the plane after the stall, and hence something else caused the final, fatal plunge to earth. To wit:

(From the FBI docs* on the investigation of the Colgan flt 3407 crash)

pg123 of 166
On the evening of 2-12-09, (Redacted) heard a low flying plane near his house that was unlike the sound of other airplanes he has heard nearby. The aircraft was flying so low that it made him shriek. (Redacted) was later watching television and saw the breaking news coverage of the airplane crash and then realized the he is only 6-8 miles from the crash site and that the airplane he heard was likely the one that crashed.

pg124 of 166
On the night of Thursday, February 12, 2009, (Redacted) was on duty (Redacted). At 10:15 pm or 10:30pm, (Redacted) was outside disposing of garbage, when he heard a plane which was very low and didn't sound normal. (Redacted) cited a "rambling noise" which sounded as if an engine was not running properly.
Administrative: (Redacted) is approximately ten miles due East of the crash site.

pg146 of 166
At approximately 10:15pm on February 12, 2009 (Redacted) heard a low flying plane by her house. She said the plane was making loud noises, as though metal was banging and clattering. (Redacted) said she lives 12-15 miles away from the crash site, but believes the plane she heard was flight 3407. She did not see the plane in flight.


Another witness confirmed that the plane was flying level before the crash:

pg20 of 166
It was flying approximately two to three times the height of the tree line, and the airplane's flying lights were on. ... At first the airplane seemed to be flying level, but then it suddenly went nose down and crashed. ((Redacted) made her hand flat to describe the airplane flying level, and made an abrupt downward motion).




*These documents were mailed to me by the FBI after I filed a FOIA request. Due to financial limitations on my part they are not yet posted on the net.


Acknowledged. Thankyou.

Posted by: Graeme Nov 24 2010, 12:32 PM

QUOTE (starviego @ Nov 17 2010, 04:39 PM) *
You can access the documents here:

http://www.ntsb.gov/dockets/aviation/DCA09MA027/

---------------------------


*These documents were mailed to me by the FBI after I filed a FOIA request. Due to financial limitations on my part they are not yet posted on the net.


Actually, in addition, I am going to spend the time trawling through and studying all of these dockets now you have provided them. I find it quite surprising but not unusual, since the media often work this way, that we don't hear about the witness reports that seemingly point to 3407 having pulled out of the stall. Yet, still the aircraft was pointing in the opposite direction to the designated flight path when it crashed.

I guess in an emergency situation such as this, the last thing these conveniently blamable pilots, had on their minds was which way they were heading, more they were concerned on maintaining that 250' or so feet of altitude.

So, how is that explained? How do we explain it, indeed how does anyone officially explain that? Was there flat countryside in 'thatta direction' that might have helped facilitate an emergency landing, in a field for instance? They were out of radio contact, (yet another problem) and had to fly litterally by the seat of their pants. This is most sad of course, that so many things, that were not all mechanically/electrically related to other contiguous failures, went wrong at the same time.

It is time to sit down soon and review this whole accident..... a business I have found harrowingly 'off-putting' from the start ... dunno.gif

Thankyou for your FOIA request and supply of documents! It seems to me that this is uniquelly remarkable work.

Posted by: amazed! Nov 25 2010, 12:09 PM

I'm guessing you're not a pilot, and thus not familiar with the term "stall-spin"

Given certain conditions, a stalled airplane will sometimes enter a spin. If it does, it begins to rotate in the vertical plane about an axis.

For this flight, half a turn in a spin would have the wreckage facing the opposite direction from the flight path.

Posted by: Graeme Nov 29 2010, 12:55 PM

QUOTE (amazed! @ Nov 25 2010, 04:09 PM) *
I'm guessing you're not a pilot, and thus not familiar with the term "stall-spin"

Given certain conditions, a stalled airplane will sometimes enter a spin. If it does, it begins to rotate in the vertical plane about an axis.

For this flight, half a turn in a spin would have the wreckage facing the opposite direction from the flight path.


Not a Pilot? laughing1.gif

Posted by: Graeme Nov 30 2010, 02:10 PM

I just figured out another reason why I felt a strong emotive involvement with the story of the tragic death of Ms Eckert in this crash, apart from the small personal contact we had had.

According to the small research I just did into the Genealogy, her family is, just like my own, of Scottish origins. The family name certainly is from the parts of UK I was born and been most attached to.

In her case the UK connection must have been broken following the 'Great Migration' to the North American continent and the 'Colonnies'. (Sorry Yanks, but I'm not in the mood for it). cleanup.gif

So, it was a loss for Scotland too. There's always something new to this story ...

¤ pilotfly.gif ¤

Posted by: starviego Dec 1 2010, 10:01 AM

The names of 48 of the 50 dead victims were released in the first week after the crash, but the names of the last two were not publicized until several weeks later. Both of these passengers seem to have been rather 'special.'

One was an Israeli national named Ruth Harel-Katz, 52:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3671395,00.html
The names of two Israelis appeared on the passenger list....
Ruth Harel-Katz, 52, a resident of the United States, and 27-year old George Abu-Karem from Tiberias, were both killed in the crash.
The Foreign Ministry told Ynet that a representative from the Israeli Consulate in New York was on his way to the crash site in order to validate the information.

And a team flew all the way from Israel to assist in the cleanup:

http://www.zaka.us/news.asp?AID=108
A team of six ZAKA volunteers, members of the ZAKA International Rescue Unit and headed by Mati Goldstein, left Israel this evening for Buffalo, New York. The volunteers will assist the local emergency personnel and volunteers and will work in cooperation with Rabbi Jack Meir of Misaskim USA, in the recovery and identification of the victims...

Why were they there? Well, one of their mottos is:

http://www.aish.com/jw/id/48894137.html
ZAKA: Always There When Terror Strikes

Posted by: starviego Dec 1 2010, 10:21 AM

The last victim to be identified was that of Dipinder Sidhu, a graduate student from California who was of south asian extraction. Apparently he was unique amongst the passengers as no physical trace of this person was recovered from the crash site.

http://www.buffalonews.com/flight3407/remembrance/
But Nirmal Sidhu, who is a Sikh, is troubled that none of her son's remains were recovered from the crash site.

Though luckily his ID made it through:
FBI Investigation Docs
pg49 of 166
"Synopsis: Presumed Identification of DIPINDER S. SIDHU and Indices Check regarding same.
"Details: NJTTF/Civil Aviation Security Program SSA(Redacted) contacted SA (Redacted) and SA (Redacted) regarding National Transportation Safety Board(NTSB) contact to FBIHQ vis a vis the inability to locate identifiable remains for DIPINDER S. SIDHU. The genesis of the contact was that NTSB.... wanted to make sure there were no peripheral details which would detract from the factual basis of the investigation and be fuel for unwarranted speculation.
"....SIDHU's wallet contents to include drivers license, student I.D. and religious card indicated his presence on the airplane."

Interestingly, shortly after the crash, before many IDs of victims were made public, a foreign media source had this to say:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/US/49-killed-in-US-plane-crash-in-Buffalo/articleshow/4122007.cms
Three Indians are feared to be among fifty people killed when a passenger plane crashed into a house 10 miles from Buffalo....

Except that Sidhu was the only one on that plane with an Indian-sounding name, and he was not IDed until weeks later. One wonders exactly how many people were on that plane.

Could this have been the reason authorities were initially hesitant to keep a victim count going as the recovery proceeded:

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/US/02/15/buffalo.plane.crash/
Authorities had recovered 15 bodies as of Saturday night, but Billittier announced Sunday that numbers of recovered bodies will no longer be released "out of respect for the families."



/

Posted by: FreshKills Dec 5 2010, 06:34 PM

My, my, how timely....

"Tragic events such as these remind us of the fragility of life and the value of every single day. And one person who understood that well was Beverly Eckert, who was on that flight and who I met with just a few days ago (emphasis mine)," Obama said in brief remarks."


http://edition.cnn.com/2009/US/02/13/crash.eckert/index.html

Posted by: starviego Dec 8 2010, 01:37 PM

Well if there was a coverup, the covert operators certainly got the right crew to do the job:

http://www.examiner.com/a-1854437~Recovering_crash_remains_a_methodical_process.html
Experts who helped identify victims from Flight 93's crash in a Pennsylvania field on 9/11 have joined the search for remains from a commuter plane's crash site outside Buffalo.

Ooo look, another confused eyewitness:

http://www.atsadgrab.com/forum/thread436754/pg18
A youngish woman reporting for WABC was "live" on the scene and approached two guys about twenty years old to ask them what they saw.
They said they were up late watching TV, heard the plane loud and low, ran outside and looked out to see what was happening. They said "the right engine was on fire" and was in trouble. "It was going up and down and then spun around and fell flat to the ground".

This confirms the findings of the crash investigators, who noticed crush damage on the underside of the fuselage and concluded in came down straight and level on its vertical access.

And another one, not previously mentioned:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0902/13/cnr.03.html
DAVID LUCE, CRASH WITNESS: We heard the plane and it was unusually loud, so clearly it was low. But the engines sounded like they were revving at very high speed, unnatural sound. So we're quite used to them, usually don't pay attention, but this obviously was something a little different. And then the engine cut out and stopped. And then within a couple of seconds, there was this tremendous explosion. So all of that happened in a period of about probably 15 or 20 seconds.

Obviously, the investigators were very aware of the 'mechanical problem' hypothesis:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/nyregion/15crash.html?hp
The Federal Bureau of Investigation has been scouring the neighborhood for parts that were thrown off before the plane hit the ground but have not found any, investigators said.

Another pilot noticed something odd about that plane(N200WQ) on the very day of the crash--yet more evidence that the aircraft had mechanical issues:

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/4315267/#menu77
Holy smokes I saw N200WQ at Albany today! It was parked at C1 and was going to operate a flight to EWR as CO3202 and was delayed be several hours.
The crew did an engine run up test on the right engine before the passengers boarded. One of the flight deck crew was outside the aircraft during the run up monitoring something. After the test was completed, the passengers boardly shortly and the aircraft pushed back from the gate.

Posted by: Graeme Feb 20 2011, 10:08 AM

QUOTE (Trismagistus @ Feb 14 2009, 01:34 AM) *
I'm neither a pilot or an activist, but a researcher that has found a common thread in some of our infamous air disasters. Long ago the History Channel(pre- 2001) ran a show about the military's trouble trying to determine why their new helicopters were crashing. In essence, the outcome was that the electronics in commercial aircraft are not electromagnetically shielded. So the military fixed the problem easily. What was more interesting was that during the show they displayed what would happen to an aircraft in such a situation caused by electronic warfare exercises if a plane ventured into that airspace. Loss of controls and if a blackbox was discovered there would be nothing on it...no recordings. Strangely this has happened already on a number of commercial aircraft flights where just before the disaster there was no communication of an emergency...like the plane just fell out of the sky.

If you seriously study some of the most high profile cases you will find erasure of the black box recording. One example if you remember this far back was an Egyptian flight where our news spun the story that the pilots shouted "God is holy, God is great" just before plunging their aircraft into the sea. The blackbox was discovered from that flight and 13 minutes were erased. This was also divulged in the same history channel show I mentioned above.

Here's what I think. Could it be an unintentional accident that the plane got too close to some exercise? Sure. I would guess the military would do everything in its power to hide the facts. It would be embarassing. However, the capability has existed for a long time that could render a plane useless by frying its electronics with electromagnetic radiation. I don't know the power densities involved, or what type of wave. If I were in charge of the military I sure would be very interested in making sure this technology wasn't being used by private individuals or enforcing checks and balances within the military to make sure rogue groups wouldnt do the same. Dont get me wrong, I respect our military but history has warned us in the past of rogue groups. I am sorry for the loss of life of all of those passengers in Buffalo, may they rest in peace.


As an electronician and Telecommunications Person for decades, I'm revisiting this. Yes, I saw a similar Documentary on Electromagnetic shielding of Civilian Airliners in regard to LIGHTNING STRIKES, which of course also emit huge EMP (electromagnetic Pulses). This documentary was either on British C4 or BBC2 pre-2001.

So airline agencies were chatting about the dangers of EMP exposure. What I'm still finding difficult to verify here, and I'd appreciate some help from a Pilots for 9/11-Truth Administrator here, is whether the CVR/FDR full transcrips (not the snippets we get to see here or elsewhere) indicate loss of onboard ELECTRONICS +/or TELECOMMS systems prior to or subsequent to the stall at ~2300ft . ?

Answers please, on a postcard or just start typing Bro'....

Posted by: starviego May 15 2011, 08:38 PM


There is some information that the plane may have suffered electronic failure at the time of the upset.

Certainly no 'mayday' call was heard.

The air traffic controllers made statements implying the plane dropped off the radar immediately, which indicates the flight code ID transponder signals may have stopped transmitting.

And the TCAS (pronounced T-cass)--Traffic Collision Avoidance System--may have stopped working. When the ATC couldn't reach 3407 on the radio, they asked another aircraft in the vicinity if he could see the aircraft. That pilot said he could not locate the 3407 on his TCAS.

Posted by: amazed! May 17 2011, 08:56 AM

That's because it stalled at a low altitude and fell to the ground, quickly.

Posted by: Graeme Feb 20 2014, 03:20 PM

It's been a long time.

[ACI - Air Crash Investigations]
Colgan Air Flight 3407 Crashed during arrival to Buffalo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLMPFJQTmZs

I never saw this. Maybe you didn't either.


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