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Pentagon Damage Analysis, split from Leo Titus thread.

paranoia
post Mar 17 2007, 09:56 PM
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thanks for the info about the sprinklers merc. i did some looking around, and here is what i found:


repeatedly and at many sites, the info about sprinklers at the pentagon is quoted specifically from an LA Times article. This site has a direct link to that article:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/911_pent...enovations.html

QUOTE
"The fire that swept through the building caused the greatest damage in an unrenovated section with no sprinkler system, heavy windows or steel reinforcements. But many of the offices there were empty in anticipation of the renovation.

While perhaps 4,500 people normally would have been working in the hardest-hit areas, because of the renovation work only about 800 were there Tuesday, officials said. [LATimes]"

but when you go to the la times link, its no longer active:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/na...0,2818328.story


so no luck there. but here it is from the horse's mouth (evey lee walker):
http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/200...1_t915evey.html

DoD News Briefing on Pentagon Renovation - Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 11:00 a.m. EDT
QUOTE
"Fire sprinklers. Interestingly, you know, there was a fire that raged through wedge two, the unrenovated area. If you look at wedge one, except in those areas where it was clearly fueled by jet fuel, the fire, when it tried to spread into other wedge one areas, was knocked down immediately by the fire sprinklers. There was virtually no spread whatsoever, so we saw a tremendous beneficial effect from that."


This is what it would read like, MINUS the stipulations between the commas: "If you look at wedge one, the fire, was knocked down immediately by the fire sprinklers." Ok, simple, right? but what about the stipulations: "except in those areas where it was clearly fueled by jet fuel, the fire, when it tried to spread into other wedge one areas, was knocked down immediately by the fire sprinklers."

well "those areas" where the fire was "clearly fueled by jet fire" are supposedly everywhere, but i think walker is referring to the outtermost edge of wedge 1, closest to the entry hole, right? so the rest of wedge 1, the deeper sections are where the sprinklers worked, and the pics of the L columns (below) corroborate this. so where is the rest of the plane? people from the tail section of the plane were found piled up near this area, so how did they get there? assuming a giant mass of bent and mangled machinery and metal, coupled with inertia and momentum brought those bodies to this location, shouldnt some major pieces have survived, since in fact the sprinklers WERE WORKING at this location?

you can see that the sprinklers (at least in the area near these 2 N-level columns) DID in fact work:






location of these poles:


notice the poles (7L 9L) show soot/smoke residue, but you can also see where the water was running down these columns from the top, hence the non-burned and non-smoked (white colored) areas at the top and sides of these columns. so the sprinklers were in fact working in this section at least, of wedge two. since the majority of bodies (and presumably the plane) ended up very near to this area (second wedge, adjacent to 7L & 9L), and the sprinklers worked to squelch the fire, then how come more wreckage didnt survive? especially the biggest, strongest pieceS of the plane, such as the landing gearS and wheel hubS, where are they? is it possible they did survive, but werent photographed and/or presented into the public record? i doubt it, but here are some possibly relevant details:

post-attack project to rebuild, the Phoenix Project:
http://renovation.pentagon.mil/Phoenix/Phoenix.htm

the above page has a set of links on the right which direct you to news stories about the events of 911. now remember this is an official site (homepage: http://www.whs.mil/ ), but they link the visitors to their to news articles (not DOD releases) as their set of "facts":

http://renovation.pentagon.mil/Phoenix/Pre...nn_pentagon.htm
QUOTE
September 12, 2001 Posted: 1:11 PM EDT (1711 GMT)
"Around the area of impact along the building's perimeter, where a section of the building collapsed, FBI evidence teams found parts of the fuselage from the Boeing 757, Tamillow said. No large pieces apparently survived...

...Agents also were looking for the plane's black box and flight data recorder...

...But many corridors ended in blacked-out hallways. Yellow tape and Defense Department policemen warned people away..."


so no large pieces survived according to what the WHS themselves point to as "fact". also take note of the areas that were OFF-LIMITS to everyone. they say "Defense Department policemen", but im not sure who they are referring to: is that the pentagon police? but it is stated that people were indeed kept from parts of the site, even if it was under the guise of protecting them from structural danger. anyhow, a closer look here:

http://www.fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build03/PDF/b03017.pdf
(scroll to bottom- each and every column is identfied)

if you scroll to the bottom of the above page, you will see each and every individual column identified and its damage specified. a closer look reveals an omission that suggests that (at least) the deepest part of the pentagon was indeed closed off to even insiders (like the asce). as you get to the deepest areas inside (near the N columns), close to where the majority of passenger's DNA was found, you will see that even the ASCE had to take the pentagon's word for the alleged damage.

on the ASCE's itemized column list you will see that there are NO PICS of these deepest poles (1N, 3N, 5N). instead there is this quote " Damaged (Per FBI)":



the lack of pics and the asce's referrence to the feds suggests (to me) that these areas were kept CLOSED to everyone, including rescuers and engineers. so if its a question of access to the scene, then it was limited. not only did this prevent/preclude relevant parties from witnessing and confirming the damage, but this also would have allowed those with ill-intent to perpetrate whatever fraud or subterfuge they deemed necessary to support their lies (imo).

i have to point out however, that while searching, i actually found a pic of column 3N, on rense.com:
http://www.rense.com/general32/phot.htm


Sarah Roberts (the author of the above rense article) states:
QUOTE
"Unfortunately, such images are very hard to come by since: (1) Much of the debris was burned and torn beyond recognition, (2) Most FEMA photos in the public domain were taken on 9/14/01, after much of the debris was cleared out of the building, (3) Most other photos remain in the private hands of investigators, rescue workers, and others who were inside the building. Many images are officially classified. The following article attempts to bring together all known images sent to me or in the public domain that show aircraft debris inside the Pentagon. The images were either found online or sent to me by recovery workers to be used with permission."


so no specific sources are mentioned for the 3N column photo, but we can see that in the public domain, an actual picture of this column exists. i can only speculate one of 2 things regarding how this relates to my earlier assertions: either the asce was telling the truth and did not have access to column 3N, or they did have access, but for some unknown reason (no known practical motive thus far) the asce lied or omitted direct mention and/or pics of the three N columns (3N in particular).

the other possibility is that only "special" persons were allowed access to that area, and one of them managed to photograph it. whoever this (possibly) highly privileged person who took the picture was, they forwarded the pic to sarah roberts, but NOT the ASCE. so either the asce is/was not aware of this pic, or for some currently unknown reason, they were aware of it, BUT could not (as in were not allowed to) post the photographs and descriptions of the three N columns.


its worth noting what the ASCE claims was found in that particular area, the FDR:
http://www.fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build03/PDF/b03017.pdf



but a public release from a pentagon official and an arlington county police official (reported friday afternoon: September 14, 2001 1:00pm EDT), is a DIRECT CONTRADICTION of the ASCE's alleged FDR discovery location:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/septem.../wash_9-14.html (only names bridges)
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/1047680.html (also names col.rhynedance)

QUOTE
The two "black boxes," crucial to uncovering details about the doomed flight's last moments, were recovered at about 4 a.m., said Army Lt. Col. George Rhynedance, a Pentagon spokesman.

Rhynedance said the recorders were in the possession of the FBI, and that officials from the National Transportation Safety Board were providing technical assistance in reading any data they contain.

Dick Bridges, deputy manager for Arlington County, Va., said the voice recorder was damaged on the outside and the flight data recorder was charred. But he said the FBI still was confident the data can be recovered from both.

Bridges said the recorders were found "right where the plane came into the building."


also:
QUOTE
"We have the FBI with us and nobody is touching anything they're not supposed to touch," Crawford (Jerry Crawford, leader of a Memphis, Tenn., search team) said. He said that when rescue workers "see something marked secret or sensitive, we leave it alone."

question: who deemed what was "secret or sensitive"? based on what criteria? and who did the marking of these pieces?


more on the fdr recovery:
America Under Attack: Pentagon Holds Conference Concering Black Box Aired September 14, 2001 - 06:33 ET (must read) :
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/14/se.47.html
( note - arl. police official bridges is misidentified as a "pentagon spokesman" )

QUOTE
MR. BRIDGES, PENTAGON SPOKESMAN: I don't think it was any surprise where they were found. They were found right where the plane came into the building, right where the data recorder and the voice recorder should have been. They were right at the crash scene.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) deep into the building, or shallow? I mean give us a sense of exactly where.

BRIDGES: I don't know where they were on the airplane, but they probably were very, very close to that particular part if you look at what an airplane image might be inside the building. They were found -- they were pretty much knew where they were by a virtue of where the aircraft came in.

QUESTION: Were they found it in the same location where you were getting a signal from since yesterday?

BRIDGES: We were not ever getting a signal from the black box since yesterday. That was an erroneous report.


quik note, the above statement is referring to this:
QUOTE
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/13/america.attack/

"September 13, 2001 Posted: 11:29 p.m. EDT
In Washington, signals are being picked up from a flight data recorder from American Airlines Flight 77, which crashed into the Pentagon, according to one of the search and rescue leaders
."



back to the rest of the q & a with bridges:
QUOTE
QUESTION: And how difficult was it to actually get the black boxes out what with the surrounding debris around it?

BRIDGES: Well all I can tell you about that is that particular part of the building is extremely fragile. It's unstable. We've been spending quite a bit of time trying to shore up that area. The columns down in the bottom floors are basically gone. And they've been trying to shore it up with wooden beams.

It is dangerous working in there but we are trying to maximize the safety of those personnel in the building when they are working on this stuff.
QUESTION: Did the person who told you that boxes could be damaged but could still yield information give you any kind of idea about when we might find some information or find out how much they might yield.

BRIDGES: Well I think that's probably going to come from the FBI or the NTSB. I mean we've -- the boxes are now in federal hands and part of the federal investigation. Arlington Country, it does no longer have a role in that.

QUESTION: Were the black boxes, though, were they removed immediately with -- from the FBI taken from this location to the NTSB right across the river? I mean is it possible that the sophisticated equipment they have over there is already being used to try to analyze.

BRIDGES: I'm not going to speculate. I frankly don't know.

QUESTION: And we don't know what sort of boxes they were, whether they're analog or digital. So we know..

BRIDGES: There are a voice recorder and there was a data recorder.

QUESTION: They were removed from the scene already?

BRIDGES: Well they've been removed from the crash scene. I do not know where precisely they are other than the fact that they are in the federal authorities hands and they are now apart of a federal investigation.

QUESTION: Is this the first of the four crash sites where they have managed to recover both the flight data recorder and the cockpit voice recorder?

BRIDGES: I believe that is the case. But I'm here for this particular site.

QUESTION: Thank you.

QUESTION: What time were the boxes found again?

BRIDGES: Three forty a.m. OK. Thank you ladies and gentlemen. And we'll be back at 10 a.m, somewhere between 10 a.m. and 11 a.m. for our regular update.


okay i included all of bridges' statements regarding the fdr for posterity and clarity, but what he explicitly states about the fdr's location is that it was found near the entry hole. but for those that wanna argue that his one statement isnt enough and that birdges could be in error, i point to the fact that he describes that it was found near the area which had the most column damage and fire, and that re-confirms that he is definitely referring to the fdr being found near the entry point, NOT the punch out hole (per asce's claim).

so, dont these guys exchange notes? how come they so blatantly contradict each other? and frankly, im not sure i believe bridges' answers. he seems to be unsure of what he is talking about, making vague generalizations and unclear referrences. its almost as if he is regurgitating some b.s. he was told, but didnt fully absorb:

QUOTE
"BRIDGES: I don't know where they were on the airplane, but they probably were very, very close to that particular part if you look at what an airplane image might be inside the building. They were found -- they were pretty much knew where they were by a virtue of where the aircraft came in."


he is talking to reporters and to laymen (the broadcasting audience) as if we know where the fuk an FDR should be located on the plane, even though he himself doesnt seem to. plus he avoids giving an exact location by positioning the fdr as congruent to some unknown/unobvious referrence point. he refers to an exact location: "right where the plane came into the building," and this directly contradicts the asce.

keep in mind the asce uses this supposed fact of the fdr's location to help support their story that the plane caused the very specific damage that it did. the asce establishes the plane breached that far into the building because they knew where on the plane the FDR should have been located - at the back of the plane (unlike bridges). so wtf is bridges talking about? how could such a very conclusive reality of locations be so misrepresented? is it possible the fdr was never found at the pentagon at all? or at least not at the time that bridges released his statements?

what im thinking is this: early in the story, someone's (whatever or whoever was bridges' source of original info) logic was that the fdr is in the back of the plane, but they imagined that the tail section would stop somewhere near the entry hole. thus the report came out that thats where the fdr was found. BUT later, after the official story got its sh*t (somewhat) together, they realized that would have to claim the tail kept going, so the asce "adjusted" their FDR location to fit the "scientific" reality they were/are trying to portray.

but bridges is giving us the "official" word, not some hearsay. presumably he was informed (by who?) that the fdr was found near the impact, so somebody misled or outright lied to him, and he passed that lie on to the rest of the world.

questions to ponder: where was it (fdr) really found? at the entry hole or at the punch out hole? and why the huge inconsistency in the 2 versions of the fdr'z recovery?

some complications arise in my theory, namely that 2 firefighters claim to have found the fdr in the early morning hours. i am looking into that more deeply, to see how the timing of that news relates to the timing of bridges release, as well as where these firemen claim to have found it (fdr). an update will follow...





***more inconsistencies are continued on the next post... (below)
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paranoia
post Mar 17 2007, 09:57 PM
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more contradictions.


different versions of damage released: ( *btw - i have tried to make the diagrams easier to see, so they are therefor highlighted by me (took hours using ms paint-lol). BUT ALL DATA CONTAINED THEREIN IS ACCURATE AND EXACTLY THE SAME AS THAT OF THE ORIGINAL SOURCE MATERIAL)


this one labeled "structural integrity" from a DOD News Briefing, Saturday, 15 September 2001 - 11:00 am:
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Sep2001/g010915-D-6570C.html
http://www.defenselink.mil/dodcmsshare/bri...D-6570C-009.jpg



VS.

this on labeled "structural damage" from DoD News Briefing, Thursday, 07 Mar 2002 - 11:00 am:
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2002/g020307-D-6570C.html
http://www.defenselink.mil/dodcmsshare/bri...70C-008.jpg.JPG




VS.

this one copyrighted 2003, from the ASCE "pentagon building performance report" :
http://www.asce.org/responds/
http://www.fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build03/PDF/b03017.pdf
http://www.asce.org/pdf/illustrations.pdf (illustration B)




the first 2 versions compared:





(note that columns 7L and 9L - the ones which showed sprinkler traces earlier, are labeled as missing in the 2002 release. this is of course, incorrect and impossible, since there are pics of these 2 columns that contradict this 2002 diagram).

so why did the DOD change their public assertions? if it werent for columns 7L and 9L being completely wrong, one might guess that the earlier release was incomplete due to to a premature understanding of the damage. but because we know for sure these 2 columns were minimally damaged, and NOT missing, we can be sure that the DOD is misrepresenting the damage (at least to these 2 poles).



the 3rd representation of the damage, the one released by the ASCE, is also different from the earlier two(DOD) releases. although the ASCE's wording of the description of the damage has changed slightly:



in spite of the adapted wording, the legends for these 3 diagrams are largely describin the same type of damage. what i mean is that a red square on the diagram represents the same thing, no matter which diagram you are looking at. so the tallies/counts i have labeled are NOT misleading since there is a change of wording in their legends. anyway, the important thing is that with this 3rd release, we still have a representation of the damage that is different than the earlier 2 versions:






so wtf is going on? which of the releases is an accurate and honest version of the damage? and why has it varied? was the DOD intentionally misleading in its releases to the public? was the ASCE privy to accurate information? their (asce's) findings and conclusions are bogus and ludicrous either way, but one has to wonder: was information and evidence with-held from them by the DOD and/or the FBI? was the ASCE intentionally given wrong or mislead "facts" by the DOD/FBI? if so, why? or was the ASCE properly informed with accurate information, and then they themselves "re-shaped" the findings to help fit their flawed conclusions? who is screwing who here? who are the real bad guys? and can we trust any of purported evidence "gathered" at the pentagon scene?


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Aldo Marquis CIT
post Mar 18 2007, 12:01 AM
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P,

This deserves it's own thread.

Very interesting work dood.

Very interesting indeed.
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paranoia
post Mar 18 2007, 01:22 AM
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thanks merc. i leave it up to a mod/admin to make that call, and open a new thread, but i appreciate the props.
biggrin.gif

but i havent even gotten to the juiciest revelation, cuz its incomplete. but it has to do with the firetruck 161 and how it burned and caught fire. i have been trying to gather a comprehensive background on the fireman's own version of events and see how they compare to the firetruck damage.

but how does that relate to the damage diagrams above?

look closely:


figure out where the firetruck was, and find the out of place column marked as missing:




then go back to the 5 frames from the security cam, the one that shows the fireball. look closely. i am of the opinion that you can see 2 explosions in 2 of the frames. what i mean is that in the foreground, where the firetruck was, and where the damage diagram shows a lone column missing, and you will see a smaller, shorter in height, explosion:






and:







so anyway, im working on putting together a post to go with the above, but i couldnt resist sharing at least some of it even if in an incomplete form, since it is fairly self-explantory.

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rob balsamo
post Mar 18 2007, 01:36 AM
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excellent job paranioa... always love reading your work.

i'll pin this as well.

Cheers!
Rob
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paranoia
post Mar 18 2007, 02:06 AM
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thanks much rob for making a seperate thread of this.
as always, i am much obliged.

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behind
post Mar 19 2007, 12:36 PM
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Very interesting.

A real research.

But I can never open defense/mil links in my conputer... I think they are bloching my tongue.gif

But do you know what this black line in the mddle is supposed to mean.



And of cource interesting to see that they have damage columns just about where the fire truks was... I mean, why would they mistaken so seriously ? Makes no sense.

Explosives in the building. (my opinion)
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SPreston
post Sep 4 2007, 10:49 PM
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Here in this SSG JOHN VALCEANU photo, the fireman is spraying water on the B-ring roof from the courtyard between C-ring and B-ring with the exit hole. How did the 'jet fuel' fire spread to the B-ring when the 'aircraft' damage supposedly ended here at this corridor?

No visible damage to the B-ring wall.

How did the B-ring and A-ring experience fires unless they were caused by explosives?
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Leslie Landry
post May 11 2008, 11:10 PM
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QUOTE (paranoia @ Mar 18 2007, 01:22 AM) *
thanks merc. i leave it up to a mod/admin to make that call, and open a new thread, but i appreciate the props.
biggrin.gif

but i havent even gotten to the juiciest revelation, cuz its incomplete. but it has to do with the firetruck 161 and how it burned and caught fire. i have been trying to gather a comprehensive background on the fireman's own version of events and see how they compare to the firetruck damage.

but how does that relate to the damage diagrams above?

look closely:


figure out where the firetruck was, and find the out of place column marked as missing:




then go back to the 5 frames from the security cam, the one that shows the fireball. look closely. i am of the opinion that you can see 2 explosions in 2 of the frames. what i mean is that in the foreground, where the firetruck was, and where the damage diagram shows a lone column missing, and you will see a smaller, shorter in height, explosion:






and:







so anyway, im working on putting together a post to go with the above, but i couldnt resist sharing at least some of it even if in an incomplete form, since it is fairly self-explantory.

tongue.gif


well i realize im a year behind because this was posted a year ago in march. I was coming to add the same pictures as you of the pentagon damage but aparently isnt needed tongue.gif.

But From a building that is so protected...and we are talking one of the highest in the world...why would they have the wrong dates on those impact pictures along with the wrong time? im just saying...pretty clumsy
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FrankyGER
post May 12 2008, 07:53 AM
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QUOTE (paranoia @ Mar 18 2007, 07:22 AM) *
i am of the opinion that you can see 2 explosions in 2 of the frames.

There is photo indicating 2 explosions cos of a dual smoke plume.
I can't find the source of the picture, but you can see it here (don't want to hot link it)
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Leslie Landry
post May 25 2008, 04:20 PM
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Video recorded by a Pentagon security camera, showing the crash into the Pentagon
TELECHARGER (1,93 Mo)
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dMz
post Aug 17 2009, 02:49 PM
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QUOTE (Turbofan @ Jul 5 2008, 04:41 PM) *
I recall seeing large, high resolution photos of the Pentagon exterior, and impact area on this forum.

I can't seem to locate them in the media section, this sub forum, or the search function.

Are you thinking of the Jason Ingersoll photos that were posted by Geoff Metcalf?

http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/pentagon_20020316.html

(Photos "2.jpg" to "6.jpg" appear to be pre-collapse). I seem to recall CIT mentioning a collection of photos, but I'm not sure if it is the same one.

I know that Steve Riskus (may have accidentally?) and Jerri Davis documented the "Columbia Pike detour" around the scene of Lloyde's cab in the Southbound lane ("22205" covered this well at either the CIT or LC forums), and Sean Boger's transcript also mentions a traffic stop and that "DPS guys at the Pentagon were going to shut down everything. Nobody was going to be able to get in unless you like belonged there." [due presumably to GWB's scheduled visit around noon that day] on p.10-11 of the Army CMH Boger interview.

http://www.citizeninvestigationteam.com/of...interviews.html

Sean Boger
http://www.thepentacon.com/neit299

Jerri Davis
http://www.citizeninvestigationteam.com/fa...ight_poles.html
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paranoia
post Aug 17 2009, 03:57 PM
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her name slips my mind often, and a search of the forum didnt turn anything up about her,
so for referrence, this is jerri davis:
http://911revolution.magnify.net/video/Pen...Witness-Jerri-D



some random pics, in no particular order, from FEMA photolibrary


anc in the background:
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4331.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4713.jpg (vdot antenna and sheraton too)
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4717.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4765.jpg (dirt mound at exit too)

sheraton in the background:
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4489.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4712.jpg (vdot antenna)


anc in foreground (from CITGO AFTER REBUILD):
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/5884.jpg


plane coming in for landing at DCA - in the background of pentagon (after rebuild):
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/5890.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/5891.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/5888.jpg



green golfcart:
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4711.jpg


area behind the "mystery part" fuselage piece (the pic from congresswoman's site):
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4293.jpg

http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4294.jpg (partial view)
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4295.jpg


random:
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4313.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4315.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4363.jpg


overview:
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4354.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4719.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4766.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4765.jpg



john j. kirlin construction trailer:
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4308.jpg


dumpster marked "EVIDENCE metal parts":
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4387.jpg


plane rotor looking thingy:
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4415.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4414.jpg


QUIT HELL!
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4384.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4385.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:DN-SD-03-17513.JPEG


LETS ROLL sign at pentagon after rebuild:
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/5903.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/5905.jpg

towards ANC from inside rebuilt wing:
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/5905.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/5929.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/5928.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/6001.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/6004.jpg


memorial piece left by locals at navy annex hill (look for camera on roof corner of FOB/navyannex):
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4802.jpg


McDonald's:
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4512.jpg


CONTRAILS or CHEMTRAILS over pentagon:
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/5940.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/5979.jpg


inside one of the rings/alleys:
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4514.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4515.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4807.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/5963.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/5965.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/6012.jpg



skid driver bobcat drive MARYLAND task force Randy Carter:
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4547.jpg


more skidsteer:
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4846.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4909.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4910.jpg


charred/stripped column:
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4570.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4956.jpg


heliport DAMAGED:
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4724.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4812.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/5916.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/5919.jpg



FEMA director Joe M. Allbaugh - was also photographed in nyc:
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4650.jpg

more of him:
http://www.fema.gov/photodata/original/4613.jpg (at the citgo)
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/5710.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/5740.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/7292.jpg (katrina?)


cheney:
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4676.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4678.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4679.jpg



NM TF1 accountability chart:
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/4865.jpg



tents stripped down to leave:
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/original/5001.jpg




edited to add----

skidsteer/bobcat/forklift knocked over:
http://www.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=2453
http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/pho...N-3235P-009.jpg


navy annex vdot antenna pics:
http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/pho...F-3500C-447.jpg
http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/pho...F-3500C-443.jpg


fried pick up truck:
http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/pho...N-3235P-008.jpg


a bunch of good pics from the navy site:
http://unauthorized link.com/mbsgxm (cached page opened quicker for me)
http://www.navy.mil/view_photos.asp?page=6...&sort_row=8 (original page)

***

ps - u can go to that fema library:

http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photolibrary/index.jsp

-and look for pics related to any disaster, including but not limited to more pics of the pentagon and new york city. btw - i dont recall seeing any shanksville pics there - and when i search, none turn up...



i wonder why?
dunno.gif


***

pps - great work on the housekeeping and tidying up of threads by dmole! rock on brother.
salute.gif

This post has been edited by paranoia: Aug 17 2009, 04:44 PM
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dMz
post Aug 30 2009, 04:40 AM
Post #14



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NOTE: This thread may need to be split later (including this post), but I'll put the current line of inquiry here.

Since I'm seeing some of the "dubunkatrollz" over at ATS (and several others) linking the following page lately as "proof of AA77 impact" at the Pentagon, let's take a closer, more critical look at what exactly that page (and photos) show.

CODE
http://911review.com/articles/stjarna/eximpactdamage.html


Just to list some initial findings and the original photo sources, my quick notes:
QUOTE (911 review stjarna subdirectory)
Last Revised: February 18, 2003


"#1: The Will Morris photo"- original source photo appears to have since disappeared from:
http://amigaphil.planetinternet.be/pic/Pentagon091104.jpg

"#2 The Jason Ingersoll photo (ca. 10:05am)"
original photo:
http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/images/6.jpg

"#3 The obscured Jason Ingersoll photo"
http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pen...te-hte-def2.jpg

"#4 The Daryl Donley photo (ca. 9:40am)"
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/911/images/01750r.jpg

"#5 The earliest Jason Ingersoll photo (ca. 9:40am)"
http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/images/1-1.jpg [Umm, why weren't these considered chronologically?]

"#6. Video Footage Before the Collapse
Original picture source: "Pentagon Attack: Minute by Minute," aired on A&E on 9/11/02." [unavailable, unlinked source. NTSC video resolution too low to be of any use for photo analysis IMHO.]

"#7. Post-Collapse Photo (9/14/01)" [mostly irrelevant to discussion of the pre-collapse conditions observed at the Pentagon IMHO.]
http://www.defenselink.mil/photos/Sep2001/...F-8006R-001.jpg
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dMz
post Aug 30 2009, 05:45 AM
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QUOTE (dMole @ Aug 30 2009, 02:40 AM) *
NOTE: This thread may need to be split later (including this post), but I'll put the current line of inquiry here.
"#4 The Daryl Donley photo (ca. 9:40am)"
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/911/images/01750r.jpg

"#5 The earliest Jason Ingersoll photo (ca. 9:40am)"
http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/images/1-1.jpg [Umm, why weren't these considered chronologically?]

For a different perspective on the fire and "smoke," let's look at the color negatives of the above two photos:

Donley 01750r [gamma & brightness adjusted only, after color "negative" applied by me]
http://www.pict.com/view/1541268/0/negdonleyloc01750r


"First?" [Cpl. Jason] Ingersoll (Metcalf) photo
http://www.pict.com/view/1541267/0/negpentmetcalfingersoll11


OK- so the original Donley photo was only 640 x 432 pixels- that is very low (old, late 1980's-era VGA) resolution. Also, the fire (now blue/greenish rather than orange in the negative) appears to be centered in two 2nd story Pentagon windows, and also on/near the spools near the lawn. Of course the generator trailer (that appears to have been generating most of the smoke is cropped out (or missing from the original) ) Donley photo "01750r" from the Library of Congress.

In the "first?" of the [Cpl.] Jason Ingersoll photos, why is Lloyde's Lincoln Town Car taxicab (DC tag #H 81340) figured so prominently in the foreground, while the (presumably much more interesting) burning Pentagon and generator trailer appear to be more of a secondary "background?" In this photo, one can see a third 2nd story window with some (now bluish) flames in the room (but less of the 2 windows from the Donley photo [EDIT3: due to that column of "white smoke???"] ), and 2 more groups of flames near [EDIT4: and to the left of] those spools on the Pentagon lawn. This original, at 2500 x 1629 pixels is also much more suitable for photo analysis. Again of course, the EXIF and other metadata is conspicuously absent from this photo as well.

Note that both of these were taken before the DCA firetruck had shown up on the scene (and well before the collapse).

EDIT: The white vs. black "smoke" is curious in these 2 photos (presumably the white smoke in the original photos could be steam, or something else). Jet A (as well as kerosene/Diesel #1 and Diesel #2) will burn like a tire fire- I've seen several of each firsthand in my time.

More photos (with some author editorial/commentary, but are also relatively low-resolution photos) can be found at the same host, but at 2 different pages.

http://911review.org/brad.com/pentagongraphics.html

http://911review.org/brad.com/close.batcave.net/

EDIT2: I recently read where the Hoffmanite ATS poster "mrwiffler" will likely (actually effectively did) call those .ORG links "disinfo"- so do your own math (I hadn't seen either of those ".org" pages before this morning).
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dMz
post Aug 30 2009, 03:10 PM
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QUOTE (dMole @ Aug 30 2009, 02:40 AM) *
"#5 The earliest Jason Ingersoll photo (ca. 9:40am)"
http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/images/1-1.jpg [Umm, why weren't these considered chronologically?]

Actually that 911review.com page had the "earliest" Jason Ingersoll image listed incorrectly (going by Metcalf's own picture numbers). The closeup of Lloyde England's cab is actually "Picture 1-1" that was described at the page linked above as "(ca.9:40am)"

Here is "Picture 1" of that pole, 2 "suits," and that white Saturn (I'll probably add links later on those):
http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/images/1.jpg

Here is the Geoff Metcalf Pentagon index page (which shows a sequence of high-res. photos):
http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/pentagon_20020316.html
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dMz
post Aug 31 2009, 08:33 AM
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QUOTE (dMole @ Aug 30 2009, 03:45 AM) *
EDIT: The white vs. black "smoke" is curious in these 2 photos (presumably the white smoke in the original photos could be steam, or something else). Jet A (as well as kerosene/Diesel #1 and Diesel #2) will burn like a tire fire-

So what does a burning aircraft usually look like?

http://images.ctv.ca/archives/CTVNews/img2...ning_070819.jpg


http://www.metro.co.uk/news/world/article....p;in_page_id=64


http://aviation-safety.net/photos/accident...2-C-d-1-500.jpg


And burning fuel tankers?

http://www.thewe.cc/thewei/_/images12/uk_t...s_fuel_tank.jpe

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/ph...ul14-169618.jpg


http://www.wusa9.com/news/columnist/blogs/...nker-741719.jpg


And just something for the veterans out there- wink.gif

http://www.justanothersoldier.com/ivan01.jpg
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DoYouEverWonder
post Aug 31 2009, 09:23 AM
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May I add one more to the collection.



I didn't take this pic, but I was close enough to feel the heat on my back when I started running away.
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dMz
post Sep 17 2009, 05:54 AM
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OK, let's go back to the [FEMA/] "ASCE Pentagon [EDIT: "PERFORMANCE?"] Building Report" (I'll link it later if necessary- or search for it- I'm pretty certain on that title, but skip the part in brackets), specifically Figure 6.1 on page 23 in the .PDF file. Let's look at that in relation to a scaled CAD drawing of a Boeing 757-200 that I obtained long ago from Boeing's website.

Original (just a [~100% quality] .JPG screencap that I took from the "b03017.pdf" file, page 23)
http://flickcabin.com/public/view/40808

"Wide" CAD import with scaled B757-200 aircraft (banked 8.11 degrees port wing "downward," as the ASCE Fig. 6.1 shows for the vertical stabilizer)
http://flickcabin.com/public/view/40809

Fig 6.1 with ASCE image and dimensions (in US feet, just like the Pentagon height usually is listed as 77' 3.5", last I checked, but that's off memory... )
http://flickcabin.com/public/view/40810

Fig 6.1, no background image
http://flickcabin.com/public/view/full/40811

Zooming in, Fig. 6.1
http://flickcabin.com/public/view/40812

Zoomed Fig. 6.1, no background image
http://flickcabin.com/public/view/40813

Although there is noticeable foreshortening/"skewness" in the original figure, it isn't an Earth-shattering amount, and I will leave that part for the trigonometrically-inclined reader to work out as an exercise (I should have left sufficient information in the dimensions in those drawings, and I scaled all dimensions relative to that purple vertical line, at roughly 77.3 feet high at a point that should be identifiable in this ASCE Figure and the various photos to have a "common reference point"). I didn't really feel like all that business, and I really think that triangulating the "observer" location is quite out of scope for this particular ASCE diagram anyway, since the different "Pentagon heights" were within 1 foot of each other at the "middle field" region near the alleged "impact" location at column 14 IIRC.

What is interesting is the location of that portside (L) Rolls-Royce RB-211 (as well as the generator trailer, spools, etc. that ASCE seems to have omitted from their diagram...) ASCE seems to have distorted the dihedral angle on their "aircraft" in addition to omitting the lower portion of that port engine nacelle in Fig. 6.1 (for whatever reason(s) ).

EDIT: Also, my Boeing CAD drawing only had the front view, but aircraft are [of necessity] quite symmetrical, and the tail view is much less interesting IMHO.
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brokensticks
post Sep 17 2009, 02:07 PM
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QUOTE (dMole @ Aug 30 2009, 09:45 AM) *
In the "first?" of the [Cpl.] Jason Ingersoll photos, why is Lloyde's Lincoln Town Car taxicab (DC tag #H 81340) figured so prominently in the foreground, while the (presumably much more interesting) burning Pentagon and generator trailer appear to be more of a secondary "background?"

exactly
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