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Pilots For 9/11 Truth Forum _ Pentagon _ Kara And The C130 Pilot

Posted by: onesliceshort May 15 2014, 07:23 PM

Sorry this is hot on the heels of the other thread but it has to be done this way to make sense (to me anyway!)

Kara and O'Brien interview, May 5, 2004

I'll break this interview down in to separate posts.

Kara: And according to the mission debrief, Colonel, you were in Washington DC to simply, you were going to ferry some cargo back to Minneapolis, is that correct?

O’Brien: That’s affirmative. We had been on a Guard lift mission down to the Virgin Islands, prior to that. And as an add on to that mission we were supposed to pick up some parts that were supposed to be waiting for us at Andrews Air Force Base, something that only after a few phone calls that morning we found out that the parts had possibly wound up at Dover Air Force Base but they couldn’t verify that for sure. So at that point our Commander at Minneapolis told us just ah to come on home. So, we spent the evening of the 10th September at Andrews Air Force Base, [unclear] remaining overnight, and then we were scheduled to fly home on the eleventh from Andrews to Minneapolis.

Note: According to O'Brien, the C130 was at Andrews Air Force Base "to pick up some parts that were supposed to be waiting for" them that never materialized.


Was this apparently failed mission "add on" ever elaborated on?

Who organized this "pick up"?

Posted by: onesliceshort May 15 2014, 07:24 PM

O’Brien: Well, I believe we were scheduled for a 10 o’clock departure, you know the mission was fragged [frag order], this was before we went to Minneapolis on the first day of our trip. And after the determination was made that we weren’t sure where the cargo was, at that point they cleared us to come home whenever we were ready. And so, we really you know didn’t try to make a hard takeoff time, it was just whenever we could get the airplane ready [unclear]. I believe we actually got off at about 9:30 local, Eastern time.

Note: According to O'Brien, the C130 took off "at about 09:30"

Posted by: onesliceshort May 15 2014, 07:25 PM

O’Brien: We had no knowledge of anything that had taken place in New York. The first time we knew anything about the events that took place in New York were as we were departing the Washington DC area.

Note: According to O'Brien, he had absolutely no knowledge of events in Manhattan the morning of 9/11

Not according to Lynn Spencer in her Feb 2011released book "Touching History: The Untold Story of the Drama That Unfolded in the Skies Over America on 9/11"

Question: Did Lynn Spencer make this up?

Posted by: onesliceshort May 15 2014, 07:27 PM

Kara: OK, And on the ground, and Colonel, we pulled your flight strips from Andrews Tower, and we’ve got two flight strips on you. And the first one is at 1330, 9:30 Eastern Daylight Time, and we believe that was your original takeoff scheduled that was entered into the flight data system. And, then later, we have a second flight strip which is 1333, and we believe that is the flight strip that was executed when you actually got wheels up. And that seems to correspond with your recollection that you were up at about 9:31?

Note 1: Kara introduces two hand-written "flight strips" in to the conversation. O'Brien gives a very specific time for "wheels up" at "09:31"

Note 2: Kara had had a preliminary interview (or attempted one) with O'Brien beforehand (this is mentioned at the beginning of this conversation)

Commission Staff arranged a telephone interview from an Air Force office where a STU-III (classified phone) was available. That was neither efficient nor effective so I elected to conduct the interview unclassified and recorded it. No MFR was made of the interview.


Where did O'Brien get this "09:31" timeframe from? Memory? Deduction? Instrumentation?

When did he mention this "09:31" timeframe?

Did he mention this timeframe at the "FBI debriefing" he talked of when he landed?

What else did O'Brien mention in this preliminary "secure line" interview? Or was there yet another interview we know nothing about?

What else was ommited?

Posted by: onesliceshort May 15 2014, 07:29 PM

Kara: And what I’d like to do now for you, Colonel, is start playing for you some of the tapes we have from the air traffic control system. And the purpose of the first segment is to show that while you were on the ground at Andrews you were actually delayed for a couple of reasons as you took off and you actually got off a little bit later then you might have otherwise.

Note: Kara introduces alleged ATC audio tapes for the morning of 9/11 and starts to outline a number of reasons for O'Brien's alleged delays in taking off. What isn't mentioned is another alleged reason for "delay" that we will come to later.

Kara: And it’s a little bit eerie in that the time frame we are talking about Colonel, and my apologies if it causes you to think in an emotional area, But had you not been delayed for three minutes you would have been out there in the flight path of American 77, as it turns out. And we know at that time you had no situational awareness that you knew that 77 was out there when you took off, is that correct?

O’Brien: That’s correct

Note: Kara states that these alleged "three minutes" of delay prevented O'Brien from running directly into the flightpath of "Flight 77"

Posted by: onesliceshort May 15 2014, 07:31 PM

Kara: And the reason that you were delayed, there are at least two, perhaps three reasons, and there, and, let me recount them as I understand them, and if that’s not correct let me know. You were first held because of the wake turbulence for a seven four heavy [Word 31] that was going off. That was one of the “kneecap” [NEACAP]. I think you were held briefly a second time because of a grass cutter. Not sure on that. And then third, there was a helicopter that was coming across and you were held up for that. Does that square with what you remember?

O’Brien: That’s affirm....

Note: Kara lists the reasons for these alleged delays.

1) wake turbulence from a 747 ("Word31")

2) "perhaps" a grass cutter (which was never acknowledged by O'Brien, outlined in detail nor a timeframe specified) and of which Kara says that he's "not sure on"

3) a helicopter "coming across"


According to wake turbulence criteria, a "medium" aircraft (C130) must be kept 4-5 nautical miles behind a heavy aircraft (Word31). How many nautical miles ahead was Word31 when the C130 took off?

Why the ambiguity surrounding the "grass cutter"? Source? Timeframe (of incident and alleged length of delay)?

Why wasn't this helicopter listed or discussed among the aircraft airborne around the same time as the C130?

[Remember that a helicopter allegedly took off from the Pentagon around the same time as the C130 and was included in Kara's report to the 9/11 Commission ]

Were these alleged delays recorded on the ATC recordings played for O'Brien during this interview?

Posted by: onesliceshort May 15 2014, 07:37 PM

O'Brien: ...If you like I can elaborate a little bit on the seven four seven, but ah…

Kara: Yes, yeah, would you please?

O’Brien: Well, my recollections on the seven forty seven, and I remarked to the crew while we were starting our engines, as I remember the seven forty seven cranking up, we were facing them. We were headed, our aircraft was pointed southbound towards where they keep the seven forty seven, Air Force One, and the other aircraft. And uh I remarked to the crew that I thought it was unusual that that seven forty seven had gotten started up and had departed in a fairly short time span. I don’t remember the exact time, but I know that, for example, for our aircraft with a four-engine start, typically under normal circumstances, it might take us fifteen minutes or so to get all the engines started, all the check lists accomplished and [unclear] ready to taxi. Seemingly, this aircraft had departed a lot quicker than that, but not knowing anything else that was going on, you know, [unclear] that airplane got off fairly quickly.

Kara: Do you recall if he got priority over you, were you held up so that he could go first, or not?

O’Brien: No, I don’t recall any priority like, you know, when we call for a taxi, I don’t recall any delays, you know, you have to stand by and wait for the seven forty seven. It may have happened, but I don’t recall that being any kind of conflict at all. It was just a matter of, you know, I think we maybe both started the starting engine sequence at about the same time. It’s just a guess because they don’t have propellers like we have, but ah, it seemed like they had gotten off much sooner than normal [unclear] departure would be.

Kara: And that’s normal to hold up for turbulence they cause when they take off?

O’Brien: That’s correct. There is a wake turbulence separation criteria that are in effect and they just hold us until they feel the wake turbulence from a departing heavy aircraft has dissipated enough to make it safe for departure.

Note: O'Brien gives his recollection on the 747.

1) The C130 was facing south towards the 747 when it took off (allegedly at 09:27)

2) That the 747 had started up and taken off in "a lot" less than 15 minutes


Exactly where was the C130 when this 747 took off?

Edit added: Thanks to Rob for finding this aerial image of Andrews dated noon 9/11 2001:

A C130 (probably a different one) can be seen to the north of the image facing south. An E4B can be seen to the far south.

The C130 had 5 minutes to wheel down to the far south of the runway and overcome four alleged delays.

Posted by: onesliceshort May 15 2014, 07:39 PM

Kara: And you might have heard in the background Andrews calling for another release; that was the release on you. So this conversation was going on in the air. I think that’s Andrews, excuse me I think that’s National Tower and there was no reason for you to be on their frequency at that time. I just play that for you so that you have situational awareness as we now get you up in the air here.

Kara: Let me continue playing

[Played conversation between National Tower and Gofer 06 immediately after takeoff. Gofer 06 has the unknown in site and identifies it as a seven five seven. Gofer 06 is directed to follow the aircraft]

Kara: Colonel, let me just interject and I forgot to tell you that at the beginning, I have voice activated taped this so there are, the gaps that were there have been taken out and this is not in real time. [dead space and unrelated transmissions were removed to condense the information for the interview]

Note: Kara skips past the timeframe between the C130 being airborne and O'Brien's encounter with the aircraft he witnessed.

O'Brien's recollection of the sequence of events is also hampered by the fact that the audio played to him has been "condensed" by removal of alleged "dead space and unrelated transmissions"

This omission also denied O'Brien the opportunity to describe the time between take off and his encounter with the aircraft.

Remember also that in 2003, Kara complained to the 9/11 Commission that not all audio material had been released.

And that the audio played to O'Brien has been proven, so far, to have been censored, edited or both. Most likely to make the timeframes and radar "fit"

Posted by: onesliceshort May 15 2014, 07:42 PM

Kara: And what I did Colonel was I compressed about three minutes of audio down into the segment that you heard here. And I wanted to make you aware you are not hearing it in real time; I just simply did that in the interest of time.

Note: this alleged "dead space and unrelated transmissions" apparently constitute "about three minutes".

From the alleged "09:33" wheels up time to the RADES and ATC audio based first sighting by O'Brien of the aircraft at his "10 o'clock" position at 09:36 according to the alleged RADES data

Kara: ...And just for your situational awareness, you might have heard in the background, you’re on the Tyson at ah National Tower, and in the background you might have heard Krant position as they just became aware that they have a fast moving aircraft, so that’s going on in the background. And they’ve become aware, in real time, that they actually have a military aircraft up there that they can, that they can divert and that’s in fact what they did...

Note: It's claimed that only now, when the aircraft is allegedly 2 or 3 minutes away from the Pentagon, that there's a flurry of ATC activity and that O'Brien's C130 happens to be in the area.

Question: What happened to the "50 miles out, 30 miles out, 10 miles out"?

What happened to the alleged primary target "heading east" reported at 09:32 by Dulles Radar?

What happened to the aircraft reported by Scoggins "6 miles southeast" then "6 miles southwest of the White House"?

What happened to the aircraft reported by Dulles ATCs "losing radar contact over Washington"

What happened to the primary target aircraft reported on the "down river approach" from Roslyn?

There's more but you get the point..

Posted by: onesliceshort May 15 2014, 07:47 PM

O'Brien: ...I think the aircraft was banked up, I recall, quite a bit steeper then what your typical aircraft, commercial airliner banks for a turn. I want to say it was between 30 and 45 degrees of bank constantly when he went by us at our 12 o’clock and passing through our one to two o’clock position. We were pretty much looking at the top of the airplane.


Kara: And the only traffic that was of concern to you for safety or safety reason was the traffic that was pointed out to you?

O’Brien: That’s correct. And I had ah, to the best of my recollection I had noticed him before the ATC call. I believe I first saw him about my ten o’clock position


O’Brien: OK, no, I was not aware of that fast moving aircraft. And like I said earlier, I believe I had first picked the airplane up, and I’m guessing we were ah at 3,000 feet, maybe had just been cleared up to 4000 feet, when I noticed the airplane. He was up a little bit higher than us at that point and then when ATC asked us again if we had the airplane in sight he had continued his descent down, was in a fairly, like I said, steep bank turn to the right at about our 12 o’clock position and at about the same altitude, I would say was about 3500 feet or so.

Note: O'Brien describes how

1. He saw the aircraft before ATC called

2. That the C130 was "between 30° to 45° of bank constantly when he went by us at our 12 o’clock...position"

3. That the C130 was at "3000ft" and "had just been cleared up to 4000 feet" when O'Brien noticed the aircraft at his "10 o'clock position"

4. That the aircraft was more or less the same altitude as the C130 when it passed his "12 o'clock" position.

O'Brien's testimony will be discussed in detail in another thread but he repeatedly (after this interview) described this bank as starting at his "12 o'clock position"

Question: How so when the RADES data and alleged FDR data has the aircraft in a continuous steep right bank from well before the aircraft was supposedly at his "10 o'clock position"?

According to the RADES data, the aircraft was at his 10 o'clock position at around 09:36am (remember that the NEADS RADES data was supposedly 25 seconds "slow" (go figure...)

I've taken a screencap of the NTSB animation at 09:35:13 (well before this position)

And this bank is constant right through to 09:36:01

And allegedly terminates at around 09:36:57.

O'Brien is not describing this "loop".

Posted by: onesliceshort May 15 2014, 07:49 PM

O'Brien: ...we’ve got a what we call a TCAS, it’s a, oh what should I say, it’s a piece of equipment that allows us to identify other aircraft out there that have transponder codes. And, between clearing out visually and using the TCAS equipment that we’ve got in the aircraft, and then [unclear] on ATC, that’s how we basically clear [unclear] other aircraft that might be in the area.

O’Brien: ......We have a fairly sophisticated radar in the H3 model that we hadn’t had prior to this, and its got various modes in it, its got a weather mode, and its got a [unclear] mode, and its, one of the modes happens to be skin paint that we can range out to approximately 20 miles for primary targets. In other words if the aircraft is made of metal we’re going to pick it up on our radar. And we have various gates, air speed gates that we can set up to illuminate slow moving traffic or fast moving traffic, whichever. And so, typically we operate we call a skin paint medium mode. Where, what it basically does is eliminate all the ground clutter because it will actually pick up if you leave it at low mode, it will actually pick up traffic on highways, things like that. So the skin paint was a reference to the low mode radar.

Note: Colonel O'Brien discussed two radar systems on the C130. One was dependent on other aircraft squawking transponder codes and its range was relatively limited but the other had a 20 mile range and could pick up primary targets if they were "metallic" ("skin paint")

PSR Mode

PSR stands for "Primary Surveillance Radar". In this mode, only a primary radar return is shown, depicted as a slash. This primary return is also known as a "skin paint". It is a representation of the radar energy being bounced back to the radar antenna by the fuselage of the aircraft. This mode is intended for controllers using special procedures for facilities that only have basic radar and no SSR (Secondary Surveillance Radar) systems with which target callsign and flight plan data can be correlated.

Kara: And you can only go out 20 miles with that?

O’Brien. That’s affirm, that’s the maximum, if we’re really tight to you know, be very precise it’s got lower settings, we can get it all the way down to a mile and a half, where the bottom of the scope, top of the scope is a mile and a half out.

Kara: And in its, in its final minutes United 93 was at 8000 feet, and its altitude, or altitude above ground was probably [unclear] beyond your skin paint capability?

O’Brien: Well, you see, there’s a beam of radar, so it’s not, you know it can’t paint from the ground up to infinity, anything like that. I’d have to get my tech order manual out to give you an exact, you know how big the slice of airspace it was looking at based on a certain distance as far as the maximum range of the radar is concerned. It’s not looking at a very wide slice of airspace, to my understanding.

Note: According to RADES, from 09:34:38, the aircraft had supposedly entered this alleged loop within range of the C 130 (albeit at a slightly higher altitude - about 1500ft according to his testimony and the alleged FDR data (remember the "25 seconds off" story)

Screencap of NTSB animation at 09:35:13


Should or could this radar have picked up "Flight 77" before the visual encounter when it was supposedly looping southbound?

Why did Kara not ask this question of "Flight 77"?

On a separate note, should or could this radar have picked up "Flight 93"?

Is this radar data recorded by the equipment?

Did any member of crew remark on the radar?

Were they asked?

Was O'Brien ever contacted again when he offered to check his "tech order manual"?

If not, why not?

Posted by: onesliceshort May 15 2014, 07:50 PM

Kara: And, based on our review of the radar and the air traffic control tapes and any other information we can get our hands on, the only other aircraft that we’re aware of that day that you may have been aware of either visually or on radar, first of all, did you see Word 31, the seven four, out in front of you?

O’Brien: I don’t recall that aircraft, I’m sorry.

Kara: And there was a helicopter that took off from the Pentagon oh a few minutes before you came across the Potomac, and he was headed northbound. You recall seeing a helicopter in the area?

O’Brien: No I don’t.

Note: During the C130's time on Andrews Air Force runway, one alleged reason for one of four delays was a helicopter that allegedly "flew across" but that it would be "south" of the C130's "turn".

In a subsequent conversation at this forum between a member and "Boondoggled", the latter said that

5174 is the transponder code for N10CE, a helicopter that flew over Andrews from the east and landed at Reagan National at 9:36:32


Are there any more details on this helicopter?

What path did it take?

At what point and time did it cross the Potomac?


Why the non specifics by Kara on the helicopter that allegedly took off from the Pentagon (I say allegedly because no witness has actually pinpointed where it took off from)?

Again, were any crew members asked about the radar system on the C130 itself?

Note: According to RADES, The helicopter allegedly took off at 09:34:13 while the same data has the C130 crossing the Potomac at 09:35:13. Not "a few minutes before" the C130 reached the Potomac River.

Why was Kara so general about specific details that were supposedly available to him/in front of him while O'Brien (allegedly) didn't?

Kara: And the only other two airplanes that I’m aware of that are of interest, there were two Bobcats, and I think those were Air Force [unclear] out of Dover, but they were well at altitude, they were at 17 and 21 thousand on top of you, you recall either talking to them or being aware of them at all?

O’Brien: No we were not, we were certainly not communicating with them and we didn’t recognize, or I should say didn’t recognize, but we didn’t see them as a crew, being down at 3 thousand feet or so we were..our scan wouldn’t have gone up that high.

Question: Were any C130 crew members asked about the radar? This "scan"?

Posted by: onesliceshort May 15 2014, 07:55 PM

This is very important

Kara: And then you were asked to orbit the Pentagon as I recall, but you were called off of that. Could you walk us through that for a minute or so?

O’Brien: Well, initially, they gave us that heading of two seven zero, and, I can’t remember exactly when I took the aircraft from my co-pilot but I believe it was after that instruction. We were getting closer and closer to the Pentagon and I could see that the vector they were giving us could possibly take us through the plume of smoke that was coming up from the Pentagon. And, for what ever reason, I still didn’t know anything about the aircraft menacing the World Trade Center, but it was somewhat obvious to me that a pilot worth his salt would not have taken a disabled airplane into the Pentagon. And so, right away my suspicions began to, you know, rise that this was possibly a deliberate act and not knowing, you know, what might be coming up in that smoke, whether or not they had any kind of nuclear, biological, or anything like that on board the airplane, for a terrorism situation like that, I thought it was not a good idea to fly through that plume of smoke coming up from the Pentagon. And so I believe that’s when the notion came to me that I should not take the airplane, I had taken the airplane and I realized that at that point I would have to turn back to the right a little bit. We were heading approximately zero nine zero, you know heading still heading toward the Pentagon when we got that request from or direction from ATC to turn to a two seven zero heading. At that point I made the decision that we were going to turn a little bit to the South and basically enter a left hand orbit around the Pentagon, around the side of the Pentagon, which would keep it on my side of the airplane. I thought that was best since I was flying the airplane now. Then I thought, you know, about possibly trying to set up an orbit around the Pentagon to effect some kind of rescue attempt or whatever, and, or help out with any other information. I could possibly give them a birds eye view there and they were fairly emphatic about asking us to depart the area there at two seven zero at my [unclear] altitude. So, at that point I thought I’m not going to argue with ATC, we’ll just follow their direction and go ahead with whatever they wanted us to do.

Kara: Yeah. And for those of us who are not pilots, or rated, when you say your side is that the right side or the left side of the aircraft.

O’Brien: It’s the left side


The C130 was allegedly on a course northeast towards the Pentagon according to the RADES data. How can a "turn back to the right a little bit" be considered turning to the "south"?

Miles Kara had the alleged RADES data in front of him during this telephone conversation. Didn't he think this description contradictory? Why did he not ask O'Brien to elaborate?

Did O'Brien have the alleged RADES plotted path for the C130 in front of him during this interview?

Has he ever seen this path in an official capacity?

Does it match his recollections?

O'Brien, according to this description was travelling East. "approximately zero nine zero". And turned "south"

This would corraborate the ANC witnesses description of the arrival of the aircraft from the northwest, O'Brien's description of his turn to the "south" and the Tribby video showing the aircraft travelling from southwest to northwest.

The Tribby video of the C130 (close up)

The ANC witnesses vs RADES

In the above gif, take particular note of Darius Prather and Darrell Stafford's (and possibly Donald Carter) hand gestures. The C130 arriving from the northwest, travelling south and the loop away again to the northwest.

Posted by: onesliceshort May 15 2014, 07:59 PM

[An audio compilation. The Dulles TRACON clip sounding the alert, conversation at National and Andrews ATC facilities, to include Venus 77]

Kara: OK let me stop it there. Colonel, that was the other side. What you heard in the background is a, a voice, a female voice said, National, anybody. That was the first identification of a fast moving aircraft approaching the DC area, and that was at about 9:33. And that’s just about the time you took off, so we have Dulles reporting that to National Tower and at the same time they are lifting you up. And we got both planes, if you will, coming toward the DC area, or toward the Pentagon area from different directions.

Note: This is a highly ambiguous statement.

According to the RADES data, the C130 basically executed an acute left bank as it cleared the Andrews Air Force Base flightstrip (within a kilometre). According to the same data, the C130 was not "coming toward the DC area, or toward the Pentagon area from different directions" (to alleged "Flight 77").

It was allegedly flying (almost) in the opposite direction away from both areas, then according to RADES flying in almost the exact same trajectory southwest towards the Pentagon.

Miles Kara was aware of O'Brien's previous interviews and pieces (one written by National Guard Public Affairs) where O'Brien repeatedly described travelling "north and west" and used the Mall as a reference point for this turn to the west.

The way in which Kara worded this statement appears to have been an attempt to marry the alleged RADES data to what O'Brien had publically stated before this interview and for years afterwards


Did O'Brien have the alleged RADES plotted path for the C130 in front of him during this interview?

Has he ever seen this path?

Does it match his recollections?

Does he feel that he was flying towards DC or the Pentagon "from different directions" to "Flight 77" or does he feel like Kara pulled the wool over his eyes?

Can anybody else see the deceptive language and methods used during this interview?

Posted by: onesliceshort May 18 2014, 08:15 PM

5174 is the transponder code for N10CE, a helicopter that flew over Andrews from the east and landed at Reagan National at 9:36:32

Anybody familiar with this? I've tried downloading the RADES data but it's way over my head.


Posted by: onesliceshort May 26 2014, 09:01 AM

QUOTE (onesliceshort @ May 19 2014, 01:15 AM) *
Anybody familiar with this? I've tried downloading the RADES data but it's way over my head.


Okay... I'll work it out for myself rolleyes.gif

The reason I ask is this.

According to RADES, this helicopter was allegedly over Andrews at 09:29:23. It was supposedly heading west and supposedly landed at Reagan at 09:36:32. Over seven minutes later. The C130 allegedly arrived over the Potomac 2.5 minutes or so after taking off on a hard bank and an ascent. So WTF was the helicopter doing during those 7 minutes?

Andrews allegedly told O'Brien that the helicopter would be south of his turn. Now I know that this helicopter is probably another red herring but why haven't govt loyalists used it to "prove" where the C130 turned?

I'm starting to see a pattern where not only were sections of the RADES data artificially inserted (probably on the premise of covering something else up), but radar terrain masking, stealth "technology", and other possible aircraft (through transponder switching?) were used before the one and only aircraft entered the Pentagon basin.

Edit added: wrong timeframe for C130

Posted by: rob balsamo May 26 2014, 10:55 AM

QUOTE (onesliceshort @ May 26 2014, 09:01 AM) *
Okay... I'll work it out for myself rolleyes.gif


Sorry my friend.... i been a bit busy...

I havent opened the RADES data in a while... but i'll take a look when i have a chance... I know i have many filters installed... so it may take me some time to re-learn all the in's and out's again....

Tume probably can give you an answer faster....

With that said... 7 mins doesn't seem unusual for a helo ADW-DCA. Especially if only flying at 60-70 knots or so...

It's about 10 miles (if i recall) between ADW-DCA? Flying at a mile per min (60 knots) it would take 10 mins, If we double it (2 miles/min at 120 knots) would take 5 mins.... then perhaps another two mins while setting up for landing.. etc....? Makes sense...

The C130 allegedly arrived over the Potomac just a minute or so after taking off on a hard bank and an ascent.

This ^^^ does seem unusual. If it was only 1 minute.. .that would mean the C-130 was flying at nearly 600 knots!

Posted by: onesliceshort May 26 2014, 02:38 PM

Cheers Rob. That comment wasn't directed at you mate, I know you've enough on your hands as it is.

I'll edit the "1 minute" timeframe (that was actually the timeframe the C130 crew supposedly had to take in the "beautiful view" of the Mall doh1.gif ).

I just wanted to see where this helicopter allegedly was in relation to the official C130 flightpath seeing as it was supposedly "south" of the. C130's turn.

Posted by: rob balsamo May 26 2014, 03:01 PM

QUOTE (onesliceshort @ May 26 2014, 02:38 PM) *
Cheers Rob. That comment wasn't directed at you mate, I know you've enough on your hands as it is.

I'll edit the "1 minute" timeframe (that was actually the timeframe the C130 crew supposedly had to take in the "beautiful view" of the Mall doh1.gif ).

I just wanted to see where this helicopter allegedly was in relation to the official C130 flightpath seeing as it was supposedly "south" of the. C130's turn.

I havent had a chance to fire up the RADES yet... but with either flight route of the C-130 (a "beautiful view of the Mall", or according to the govt story), I would expect the helo to be south of the C-130 flight path (or "turn").

When crossing an airport, ATC will direct a helo (or other airplane) to cross directly over the center of the airport.... because at the center of an airport.. .any possible 'conflicting traffic' are on the ground.. .not at altitude... smile.gif

Example... I've done this many times coming through the ranks while taking dates on NYC tours. We travel north up the Hudson River... turn right and cross over Central Park... directed to cross overhead LGA Tower... heading east to cross over the south span of the Throgs Neck bridge..... continuing east... communicating with ATC and within radar contact the whole time....

Meanwhile.. .all types of heavy traffic are landing and departing LGA....

Posted by: onesliceshort May 26 2014, 04:24 PM


Thanks for the feedback Rob.

Kawika sent me a still of the RADES a few days ago (man, that's confusing for me)

This must have been around the time the helicopter (5174) was allegedly over Andrews (according to RADES) as Venus22 was (allegedly) south of it around this time (13:29:23)

As I said mate, it could be nothing. It's just when I get my teeth into something..(I'm a pain in the ass lol)

Edit added: on a sidenote, Venus22 was the aircraft Miles Kara said there was nothing suspicious about rolleyes.gif

Posted by: vancegreen37 Jun 2 2014, 08:18 PM

Steven O' Brien's recorded interview is available at the National Archives and Records Administration Open Public Access link for everyone to hear: Click Open Public Access and enter 7788028 in the search box to hear the interview.

Best of luck


Posted by: onesliceshort Jun 3 2014, 11:06 AM

QUOTE (vancegreen37 @ Jun 3 2014, 01:18 AM) *
Steven O' Brien's recorded interview is available at the National Archives and Records Administration Open Public Access link for everyone to hear: Click Open Public Access and enter 7788028 in the search box to hear the interview.

Best of luck


Thanks Vance.

Posted by: onesliceshort Jun 3 2014, 06:58 PM

I went to Loose Change Forums to "talk" to "Boonedoggled" who claimed that this interview "proved once and for all" that the C130 flew as per RADES. No, it doesn't!

Kara skipped from the takeoff to O'Brien's encounter with this aircraft. We know that every interview before and since the 2004 Kara interview, that the Mall is referred to repeatedly.

He tried to trivialize the upwards of two minutes of discrepancies between the proven manipulated ATC recordings timeframes, coupled with O'Brien's claim that he was up by 09:31. A timeframe mentioned not by O'Brien, but by Kara which points to an earlier interview that we know nothing about. The source of what is a very specific timeframe is never revealed.

FTR, a 2 minute discrepancy could bring O'Brien further north towards the Mall. Or north of Reagan.

Boonedoggled also claimed that the "start" of the bank O'Brien described at his "12 o'clock" position may he explained by the "eratic" nature of the bank during the alleged loop. Wrong. The NTSB animation shows no level flight or shallow bank during the alleged area before where the C130 and this plane intersected. It was in a constant bank according to the official story. Full stop.

I had only just got started when the usual sidelining began of witnesses who described the C130 approaching from the northwest in a southern trajectory; wordplay on the ambiguity of a section of the interview where O'Brien claimed that he had to "turn right" and "to the south" to avoid the smokeplume (how would O'Brien feel he was to "turn south" when he was allegedly heading northeasterly??), then the usual nonsense where he planted the "he watched it fly into the Pentagon" in to the mix.

It's got to the point where I don't get angry any more talking to these people. They're history as far as I'm concerned.

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