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Sanders' Religion Thread, Begun @ LC Forum

tocarm
post Feb 14 2007, 08:24 PM
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Dear Sanders,

Even since the time of the Apostles, the Faith that was entrusted to them to "preach and teach" to ALL the nations of our world had its OBSTINATE detractors, those who sought TO 'PROTEST' that which they were charged to give to mankind and those who wanted to mangle Christ's Own Revelation to mankind for their own aims, goals, agendas and benefit.

The Apostles had to put up with the JUDIAZERS, the GNOSTICS and every other manner of Cult/Sect within and throughout the then Roman Empire.

With respect to ISLAM, the Prophet Mohammed received his 'Christology' (the doctrinal study of Christ Himself) from a heretical JEWISH sect known as 'The Ebionites'. Go ahead. Research the 'Ebionities' on/over any Internet search engine.

So a HERETICAL 'protesting' Jewish sect - The Ebionites - teachs FALSE DOCTRINE about Christ Jesus to a wondering Arabian who, in turn, establishes his own religion - aka 'Islam'...and in Surah V of the Qu'ran Mohammed promotes the EBIONITES heretical/erroneous views on/about Christ Jesus to now countless millions of adherents of Islam.

How strange. How odd. How bewildering....that a heretical Apostolic teaching REJECTING Jewish sect ought to wind up teaching millions of MUSLIMS on/about the nature of Jesus Christ...

...and all the the current crop of JEWS throughout the world can do is but to PROMOTE HATE/VIOLENCE against all the peoples holding the Islam religion of the Prophet Mohammed!

Now that is an example of how ROYALLY SCREWED UP the entire world becomes WHEN one ROYALLY SCREWS UP God Incarnate's Own Divine Revelation of Himself He entrusted to His Apostles and to His Church!!!

Then throw the KABBALAHISTS, the many/varied HERMETIC orders, the ROSICRUCIANS, the MASONS, every odd-ball New Age Occult-based group into this mix ALONG WITH the 20,000+ "bible based/bible alone" denominations doing nothing different but then to DUPLICATE the actions/behavior of the early EBIONITES - and one winds up with a ROYAL GLOBAL >>MESS<< with, for and amongst 6 billion human beings currently alive and living on planet earth!

If people would finally >SHUT UP< and simply LISTEN TO and OBEY all things which Christ Himself told people TO LISTEN TO as well as TO OBEY, our human race might...just might..."have a fighting chance" for EVERYONE to have a wee bit of 'Taste of Heaven On Earth' precisely because the vast majority of people would be DOING GOD'S WILL >>HERE ON EARTH<< 'as it is in Heaven'!

But...people being what they are....what they WANT TO BE - pushy, arrogant, haughty....etc....we have a 'world' EXACTLY the way and in the manner THEY WANT FOR IT TO BE!

- tocarm
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bill
post Feb 15 2007, 09:41 AM
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"If people would finally >SHUT UP< and simply LISTEN TO and OBEY all things which Christ Himself told people TO LISTEN TO as well as TO OBEY, our human race might...just might..."have a fighting chance" for EVERYONE to have a wee bit of 'Taste of Heaven On Earth' precisely because the vast majority of people would be DOING GOD'S WILL >>HERE ON EARTH<< 'as it is in Heaven'!"



Well said tocarm


Mark 12:29-31

29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
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Sinewy
post Feb 20 2007, 05:54 PM
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Where were we?

hahaha.... laugh.gif
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tocarm
post Feb 20 2007, 07:56 PM
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The Question ISN'T

"Where were we?" - hahaha

The Question is 'WHAT HAPPENS TO YOU WHEN YOU DIE?'

The other Questions are:

'WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE FIRST NUKES GO OFF IN THE MIDDLE EAST?'

'WHAT HAPPENS TO THE FLOW OF OIL OUT OF THE MIDDLE EAST?'

'WHAT HAPPENS WHEN FARMERS CAN'T PLANT THEIR CROPS BECAUSE THEIR IS NO FUEL?'

'WHAT HAPPENS TO THE MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF PEOPLE LIVING IN CITIES WHEN TRUCKERS CAN'T TRANSPORT WHATEVER FOOD THAT THE FARMERS MANAGED TO PLANT WITH THE VERY LITTLE FUEL THEY DID HAVE?'

Brain dead people who can only JEER at Divine/Supernatural Things and who can only LAUGH...

...HA HA HA HA HA HA HA...

"The Night Of The Living BRAIN Dead!"

.....go watch Brittney Spears cutting her hair - about your 'speed'

- tocarm
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Sanders
post Feb 21 2007, 01:45 AM
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QUOTE (Sinewy @ Feb 21 2007, 06:54 AM)
Where were we?

hahaha.... laugh.gif

Taking a break I think - a 6 month break. wink.gif


Specifically though, the onset of the crusades.
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tocarm
post Feb 21 2007, 12:31 PM
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Human Nature - Human Society - Human History & "The Crusades"

US Troops violate international law and the US Constitution by invading Iraq - causing great infrastructure damage and destroying Iraqi culture. Iraqiis arm themselves and fight to drive out the invaders.

US Troops conduct a war in Viet Nam, causing great infrastructure damage and destroying Vietnamese culture. Vietnamese arm themselves to fight and drive out the invaders.

German Troops conduct 'Operation Barbarossa' against Russia, invading Russia across a 1,000 mile front, causing great infrastructure damage and destroying Russia culture in the process. Russian arm themselves to fight and drive out the invaders.

Human Nature & Human Society & Human History down through the centuries gives example after example of one 'social structure/society' invading another 'social structure/society'.

Caucasians on the North American continent repeatedly 'invaded' and 'destroyed' the social structures and society of any number of native Americans.

*****************************************************************

So, there is this political/social/religious movement initiated by one Arabian fellow by the name of Mohammed. No, his name was NOT Ghengis Khan or Hannibal or Julius Ceasar or Hitler or Lenin or Mao Tse Tung or George Bush - but like every other "historical figure" down through the centuries - he gets "his" people and "his" followers - by the use of naked violence and military force - to FORCE OTHERS INTO ADOPTING the type of 'World View' he would much more see imposed "by him" on his fellow man.

Sheeshhhh...just look at Chinese history. How many domestic/civil/rival WARS did they have to go through in order to 'settle' what Chinese culture would be and would become?

Anyways - the POINT OF THE MATTER I'd like to make here with an eye on "The Crusades" is that >>PEOPLE HAVE A RIGHT TO DEFEND THEMSELVES AGAINST UNJUST VIOLENCE & AGGRESSION<<!!!!

******************************************************************

Did you know that much of the continent of AFRICA - and in particular NORTHERN AFRICA - was predominantly >>CHRISTIAN<< prior to the rise of Mohammed's movement? There were in excess of 350 CHRISTIAN DIOCESES from one end of Northen Africa to the other. Why, St. Augustine of Hippo hailed from Carthage which was a vibrant center of Christianity during the times of the Roman Empire.

Now then, what are HUMAN BEINGS to do when they have these HORDES of sword brandishing horsemen swooping down upon your cities, upon your homes, upon your culture, your beliefs destroying all that you have worked for and for what you live for?

Do you just sit there like a DUMB AZZ and let them run roughshod over you?

Do you have a 'Right To Self-Defense'? Do you have a 'Right' to reclaim and obtain your LAWFUL POSSESSIONS???

****************************************************************

If all the SPINELESS so-called "christians" here in and throughout the USA had some >>B@LLS<<, they would have done something TO DEFEND their Nation, their culture, their beliefs, their economic/financial welfare & well being - just as THE CRUSADERS had THE B@LLS to do against Mohammed's movement - our US Nation and this entire world would NOT be in the very find pre-thermonuclear Third World War >MESS< that it is in.

But for the array of so-called "christians" in the USA - their Nation and the entire world can "go to thermonuclear HELL" because what is important to them NOW are such things a promoting same-sex marriages, ordination of women and other such "VITAL ISSUES" which all seem TO TRUMP getting off their STUPID LAZY AZZES in order "to fight for" seeing to it that God's Will gets done down here on earth - such Divine Concerns as JUSTICE and END OF POVERTY and PROMOTING MORALITY and buidling a JUST SOCIETY.

****************************************************************

But that is "soooo muchhhh workkkkk". Better to gather the SHEEP together every once in a while and suck out TITHES out of their pockets and send them off on their merry way telling them "God will take care of everything - just go watch TV, take your vacations, pad your bank accounts and stay away from controversies of every manner and kind while you make darn sure you SAY NOTHING which might be the least offensive to anyone at all!"

*****************************************************************

When it comes to discussions of 'Religion', in particularly the Catholic Church and the Catholic Faith - people AUTOMATICALLY bring up 'The Crusades' - and the INNER SPIRITUAL REASON why they do that is TO DEFLECT any sort of militant responsibility or militant response on THEIR OWN PARTS from doing ANY SORT of 'battle' to bring about Justice and restore people to their RIGHTFUL POSSESSIONS such as 1) their Faith 2) the Lands 3) their Possessions, etc.

******************************************************************

Go let the "U.S. Marines" and the "U.S. Armed Forces" SPILL THEIR BLOOD in keeping us all "comfy cozy defended and protected" while we watch our TVs, go on vacations, go watch the NFL, NBA, NHL, World Series, make our millions in real estate and day trading of stocks --- for you see, I'm "too busy" tending to my own personal creature comforts and luxuries to be concerned about such things as US national/political policy and what my US nation is doing its own citizens and the peoples throughout the world.

Yep, I suppose 'The Crusades' where about THE MOST HORRENDOUS EVIL ever perpetrated by those NASTY 'CHRISTIANS' back when one could employ all the MILITARY FORCE ONE WANTED against another peoples in order to get THEIR LANDS as wel as their NATURAL RESOURCES.

"God Bless America!" "God Bless the G.O.P.!" & "God Bless Bush!"

- tocarm
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Sinewy
post Feb 21 2007, 02:47 PM
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QUOTE (tocarm @ Feb 20 2007, 11:56 PM)
The Question ISN'T

"Where were we?" - hahaha

The Question is 'WHAT HAPPENS TO YOU WHEN YOU DIE?'

The other Questions are:

'WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE FIRST NUKES GO OFF IN THE MIDDLE EAST?'

'WHAT HAPPENS TO THE FLOW OF OIL OUT OF THE MIDDLE EAST?'

'WHAT HAPPENS WHEN FARMERS CAN'T PLANT THEIR CROPS BECAUSE THEIR IS NO FUEL?'

'WHAT HAPPENS TO THE MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF PEOPLE LIVING IN CITIES WHEN TRUCKERS CAN'T TRANSPORT WHATEVER FOOD THAT THE FARMERS MANAGED TO PLANT WITH THE VERY LITTLE FUEL THEY DID HAVE?'

Brain dead people who can only JEER at Divine/Supernatural Things and who can only LAUGH...

...HA HA HA HA HA HA HA...

"The Night Of The Living BRAIN Dead!"

.....go watch Brittney Spears cutting her hair - about your 'speed'

- tocarm

Are you okay, or are you stupid?
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Sinewy
post Feb 21 2007, 02:51 PM
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QUOTE (Sanders @ Feb 21 2007, 05:45 AM)
QUOTE (Sinewy @ Feb 21 2007, 06:54 AM)
Where were we?

hahaha.... laugh.gif

Taking a break I think - a 6 month break. wink.gif


Specifically though, the onset of the crusades.

Biases would spread though I believe. After retrospect, I am hesitant that this may turn into, to reiterate your words in this thread, a "HOLY WAR"!

tongue.gif
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Sanders
post Feb 21 2007, 04:58 PM
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Anyone want to play? This is the game -

Religious HISTORY. No PREACHING.

I tried very hard to keep this thread focused on the History of the 3 Abrahamic religions (Jeudaism, Christianity, Islam), as apart from the "passion" - passion is important, I consider even myself a passionate person, and we are all passionate about what we personally are passionate about - passion is what keeps us all alive - but passion alone doesn't do it - and passion, in the forms of blind patriotism and religious fervor threaten to tear our world apart. That's the reason d'etre for this thread.

Passion is the easy part - understanding the roots of what you or I do or don't believe, or what others do or don't believe, well, that takes a bit of work. But it's interesting, it opens your eyes, it's absolutely liberating.

I'm not even a religious person per se - but I so love this topic.

QUOTE (tocarm)
With respect to ISLAM, the Prophet Mohammed received his 'Christology' (the doctrinal study of Christ Himself) from a heretical JEWISH sect known as 'The Ebionites'. Go ahead. Research the 'Ebionities' on/over any Internet search engine.

So a HERETICAL 'protesting' Jewish sect - The Ebionites - teachs FALSE DOCTRINE about Christ Jesus to a wondering Arabian who, in turn, establishes his own religion - aka 'Islam'...and in Surah V of the Qu'ran Mohammed promotes the EBIONITES heretical/erroneous views on/about Christ Jesus to now countless millions of adherents of Islam.

How strange. How odd. How bewildering....that a heretical Apostolic teaching REJECTING Jewish sect ought to wind up teaching millions of MUSLIMS on/about the nature of Jesus Christ...

...and all the the current crop of JEWS throughout the world can do is but to PROMOTE HATE/VIOLENCE against all the peoples holding the Islam religion of the Prophet Mohammed!


My apologies for not responding earlier -

That's interesting to say the least (!). I've never even heard of the Ebionites, so I can't offer anything. (Curious what take some of our Muslim friends might have on that.)


Forgive me, back to Topic...

This thread meanders all over the place, and admittedly it would take a lot of time to read all of what's in it, but within these 25 pages we somehow managed to cover the couple thousand years begining with Abraham up until the onset of the first crusade... Moses, the 12 tribes of Israel, David, Solomon, the Exodus, the birth of Christianity, the destruction of Jeruselum by Rome, Mohammed & the birth of Islam, Constantine, council of Nicea... it's all in there. Every word was copied and pasted, every photo was re-uploaded, every bolded and colored text in every post in these 25 pages was recreated here by e-dog and I so that this thread could live or die here at P4T. We did it simply for posterity - I don't care so much if the thread lives or dies - but since we're here, I'll kick it off.

If you are confused about where we are, back up a few pages and catch up.

In the 11th century the Seljuk Turks (we all fiqured out who the Seljuk Turks were earlier in the thread - probably 5 pages back) invaded and conquered Anatolia, the eastern part of the Byzantine Empire (modern Turkey). The Eastern Roman Empire was in grave danger of being overidden, and so Pope Urban II called out to the rulers of Europe (descendants of the Barbarians who overthrew the Roman empire and their subjects who had by now all converted to Christianity) to stop fighting each other and take up arms and march into Byzantium and wrest Anatolia from the "infidels"... And while they were at it that they should try and take back the Holy Land as well.

This was a period where the Christian Church had become absolutely central to everyone's way of life - every hamlet had a church, gothic cathedrals were being built in cities around Europe with the money of nobles trying to buy their way into heaven, sects of monks had sprung up everywhere... the response to Urban's call to arms was enormous, it's been estimated that 150,000 people answered the call and headed toward Constantinople - which was alot in those days... The princess of Constantinople, Anna Comnena, remarked that it was as if "the whole West...was bursting forth into Asia in a solid mass, with all its belongings."

It's been about 10 years since I read up on all this, and I can't remember the details ... but I remember that the story of the crusaders and their first campaign in modern-day Turkey is extremely interesting. Rather than re-dig up all this history, I'll leave it up to anyone who wants to pick up the torch.
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tocarm
post Feb 23 2007, 12:41 PM
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Religions - ALL religions - are the result of HISTORICAL events!

About the Ebioinites:
http://answering-islam.org/Index/E/ebionites.html

http://www.bible.ca/islam/library/Tisdall/Sources/notes3.htm

http://www.geocities.com/mikailtariq/christ.htm

The 'Judaism' practiced today IS NOT the 'Judaism' practiced in the time of Christ.
The proscriptions for 'sin offerings' at the hands of a Levitical priesthood in a properly consecrated Temple CEASED ALTOGETHER with the Roman's destroying the Jerusalem Temple back in 70 A.D. And whether or not those 'sin offerings' at the hands of the Levitical priesthood were even VALID in the time of Christ is questionable, since the Second Temple WAS NEVER >>PROPERLY CONSECRATED<< with the Ark of the Covenant hidden in the hills somewheres by the Prophet Jeremiah.

And if ISLAM doesn't get its theology correct with respect to the Person of Jesus, THE CHRIST, prophesize to be MOSES' OWN REPLACMENT per the Pentateuch' book of Deuteronomy, Dt. 18:15-19, then Islam as far off in 'left field' with respect to RELIGION as is the many forms of defunct Judaism in existance now in our contemporary world.

Deuteronomy 18:15-19:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...19;&version=31;

ANY FURTHER consideration of 'Religion' here which DOES NOT focus on or concern itself with THE VALIDITY, THE TRUTHFULNESS of that particular 'Religion' is simply a 'spinning of the wheels' - since every last person currently alive on planet earth CAN >>INVENT<< his, her, their own Brand Spanking 'New & Improved' Religion! And they can do THAT with either sober or drunk, cognizant or high on hallucinogenic drugs!

- tocarm

This post has been edited by tocarm: Feb 23 2007, 12:43 PM
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tocarm
post Feb 23 2007, 02:04 PM
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If we must not "preach" here, but rather dicuss THE HISTORY of religions without any concern for/with/over the accuracy and truthfulness of it's "doctrines" and it's "theology" - it is then best for everyone who wishes to participate in such a discussion by getting a pretty good community-college level TEXTBOOK on the myriad of world religions. I can offer a high recommendation for this particular book:

"A History of the World's Religions" - on-line reference at:
http://www.amazon.com/History-Worlds-Relig...h/dp/0130991651

Since every manner of unseen 'tension' is currently brewing in and amongst those of what is termed 'Judaism' and contemporary post-Protestant 'christianity' and Islam (either Sunni or Shi'ite variety) - perhaps folks would rather discuss the perseonal characters and personal traits of those who have "incorporated" their thoughts, concepts, aspirations, etc. into a world class 'religion'.

We can discuss the human traits, character and nature of those 'Founders' as listed here in the realm of 'world religion':
http://www.letusreason.org/Cult11.htm

And with all of this talk that the USA is some sort of 'christian' nation, we might consider what Professor Harold Bloom concludes in his book entitled "The American Religion - The Emergence of the Post-Christian Nation" - on-line ref:
http://www.amazon.com/American-Religion-Em...n/dp/067167997X

And since discussions about "Catholicism" pose just so much fun from so many from the ranks of atheists, gnostics, esoterics, hermetic orders, the occult, pagans, secular humanists and the entire spectrum of folks from any and all Protestant denominations, perhaps we might discuss the character, nature and personal traits of the founders of any and all Protestant 'denominations'. Make your choice from:
http://www.religion-cults.com/Christianity...nominations.htm

With respect to this 'hot topic' of religion, Jesus the Christ asked the following question to others about the nature, character and personal traits of and about Himself to His immediate contemporaries:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...15;&version=31;

To which Peter gives his answer:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...16;&version=31;

Now if you are talking to the Son of the Living God 'face-to-Face'...why on earth would you consider any other 'religion' in the entire world other than the one He Himself establishes here on earth?

- tocarm

This post has been edited by tocarm: Feb 23 2007, 02:09 PM
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Sanders
post Feb 23 2007, 03:08 PM
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Thanks Tocarm, I've still only read about half of what you turned us on to, but, Educational stuff-

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tocarm
post Feb 24 2007, 11:08 AM
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Dear Sanders,

You are probably the FIRST PERSON who has posted a "thank you" to me these past several years on the Internet in >TRYING< to educate them on/about what OUGHT NOT TO BE such a "touchy topic" - religion.

What makes "religion" such a contestly debated/argued/asserted subject is simply due to mere human SUBJECTIVE PREFERENCES.

If every other 'body of knowledge' - or if you prefer, every other 'science' - were treated as is the 'science of religion' - we'd have people still hotly debating, arguing, asserting, legislating, incessently advertising and indoctrinating others into believing things like 1) the world is flat 2) the moon is made out of cheese 3) living life has no meaning and purpose 4) you can do any stupid or silly thing one wants with one's "Free Will" within a Cause and Effect 'All' in which we all move, live and have our being.

Our "world" and the vast majority of our fellow human beings are 'Going Nuts!' precisely on account of turning the 'science of religion' into A BLOOMIN' JOKE, the BUTT OF MERE HUMAN DERISION.

If we are going TO BREAK the 'chains' in which 6 billion human being's MINDS and THOUGHTS and BELIEFS and subsequent ACTIONS which keep human beings enslaved in their "Dungeons of Darkness" - we simply MUST do combat the MYTHS by which the live out their under lives in any manner or form of SUPERSTITIONS - be those superstitions RELIGIOUS in nature or POLITICAL, FINANCIAL, ECONOMIC in nature.

My word - if one were to give but a couple of honest minute's worth of personal reflection on this matter - one cannot have nor can one really 'tolerate' the vocal ramblings of teachers/prophets of FALSE RELIGIONS. If we give LICENSE to any and all human beings to assert FALSE DOCTRINES and FALSE THEOLOGIES, then we must give people LICENSE to all human beings - particularly those very rich oligarchs who have no allegiance to their fellow man, to their particular nation, to their particular country, to their particular nation's "constitution", their nation's "laws", their nation's "heritage", their nation's "values", their nation's "welfare/well-being" - TO ASSERT FALSE THINGS about every other last aspect of human communal life.

We must "tolerate" their "legal fiats" which assert thus-and-such are 'The Enemy' upon which we must spend our entire lives slaving away working at and on military and economic systems to fight 'The Enemy' whoever the Oligarchs declare to be an 'Enemy' - INSTEAD OF WORKING ON economic systems which result in the communal WELFARE of the entire national human community so as to eliminate such things as poverty, ignorance, sickness, illnesses/diseases, homelessnes SO THAT people of every last nation, color, race and national origin may have the SPIRITUAL FREEDOM to turn his/her/their thoughts, wonders, consideration, ponderings upon their CREATOR so as to realize just how GOOD He Is so as to THANK HIM for His 'Free Gifts' of both their own personal LIFE as well as this 'ALL' in which we all live and which is so magnificently "Engineered" and "Put Together" for their own personal and individual sakes and benefit.

The 'World Struggle' IS both religious and theological - for what these GOD-LESS FALSE RELIGION MYTH MAKERS are doing is simply ROBBING GOD of what ought to be an entirely 100% NATURAL and 100% HUMAN SPONTANEOUS RESPONSE from 6 billion human beings living on His planet earth this 2007 Anno Domini...

...6 billion people simply RECOGNIZING the Goodness of God Himself and THANKING HIM as well as >>PRAISING HIM<< for all the Divine Services He does and carries out for them all.

FALSE RELIGION FOUNDERS/TEACHERS and all of their psuedo-spiritual MYTHS they generate only serve to KEEP PEOPLE SEPERATED from a True Knowledge of God Himself - and in that fashion, they are no different that ATHEISTS who entirely deny any human response to their Creator is what 'The Meaning and Purpose to and for Our Lives" is all about in the very first place.

In closing...again, as a Bishop authorized "religion teacher" in the Catholic Church in my very small/limited capacity as a Catechism teacher for the Sacrament of Confirmation, I want to extend to you my heartfelt "thanks" in return.

Maybe all of this 'blood, sweat and tears' these past 20 some odd years in that particular capacity might have "paid off" a wee tiny bit in our horrendously SCREWED UP 'WORLD' of 2007 Anno Domini!

- tocarm
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Sanders
post Feb 24 2007, 02:33 PM
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Yo tocarm, I'm sort of browsing around the forum and I've got to get going so I didn't read your above post carefully (but I did read more of your post before it) - so forgive me if I'm off the mark a bit...

If you peruse around this thread a bit (I realise you have, but it's so long it would be quite a feat if you hit on the parts I'm now talking about...), I think you'll see what I meant by the words, history of the 3 Abrahamic religions. In the context of this thread, it is not important whether or not a specific incident from the Bible or scripture or even what's in history books is factual or not. Some people tried to argue in the thread at different times whether something actually happened or not, and others would argue against their position - and these are often unwinnable arguments, these things happened so long ago. But in the context of this thread (and in my own mind), that's not what is important - Whether Peter the Hermit actually dug up the spear that pierced Christ's side near Solomon's temple is not important - the fact that the story was told and retold and gained acceptance is. The goal of the thread was always simply to find out what different people believe, and why. What are the stories, how did they originate, and what part did these religions play in shaping the world?

We are now at a time when propoganda about Islam is being used to shape the world... so I thought it would be a good exercise to take an objective look at these things.

BTW, thanks for the Ebionite links thumbsup.gif

Edt: That Ebionite page is really interesting - tieing back to what I posted above, a lot of people would be surprised to read, for example, that Muslims (from that link:) "believe that Jesus is indeed the Christ (Messiah). al-Masih is a title used exclusively of Jesus in the Qur'an." - and,"believe in the virgin birth of Jesus.". Go out on the street, and ask your run-of-the-mill protestant or catholic if Muslims believe in Jesus Christ and the virgin birth. (I'm not certain that all Muslims believe these two things, I'm just quoting what your link states...) - I think I know what 99% of them would say. -Which is not meant to be a commentary on the religious ignorance of even religious Americans, but more on the misconceptions that abound with regard to religion.
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tocarm
post Feb 25 2007, 11:03 AM
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All 'world religions' simply MUST base itself/themselves on some sort of 'concrete historical event' as being their 'claim to Divine Sanction'.

Consider but for a moment that accounts of these/those/that 'concrete historical event' can be imaginatively created in the mind of a mere human being - much like an individual wishing to write the ultimate 'Religious Novel' - OR - they are human accounts of encounters with the Infinite & Eternal God, human accounts which "struggle" with the task of using human language, human imagery and human comparisions in order to describe the Supernatural in/with natural terms.

For example, how would one human being go about describing to another human being a color nobody has ever seen before? Or how would one describe the signature notes of Beethovan's 5th Symphony to another human being who is deaf?
Or how would you describe the taste of chocolate to somebody who has never eaten the stuff?

Either individuals 'in the past', 'in the present' and 'in the future' have/can have an experience of/with God Himself - or they simply CAN'T on account of God being a 'non-reality'.

The Sacred Scriptures contained in those partitions of 'The Bible' within the Old Testament (Old Covenant if you prefer) and the New Testament (New Covenant if you prefer) ALL give the rest of the world written accounts of such encounters - human beings having encounters with a Supereme Deity.

Adam & Eve have theirs. Cain has his. Noah has his. Abraham has his. Moses has his. The Hebrews have theirs (most notably at Mt. Sinai). The Prophets all have theirs. The Blessed Virgin Mary has hers. The apostles and disciples of Christ have theirs. The Saints down through the centuries have theirs. And on and on this sort of 'Encounter' continues with every manner of religious and mystical experience by thousands upon thousands down through the centuries.

A "repeating hallucination" down through centuries, amongst peoples from all across our world - all of them encountering/expreriencing THE SAME "hallucination" during the course of our entire human history - simply gives 'witness' to the SAME GOD Who happens to make His Presense known to mankind time after time after time. This "repeating hallucination" of the SAME GOD down through the centuries simply gives witness to THE UNDENIABLE REALITY of our Common and Universal Creator God Who happens "to be" living His Divine Life in that Transcendent State of Being we call 'Eternal' and 'Infinity'.

The account of Abraham's encounter with God is most revealing. Abraham encounters 'three strangers' - and instead of bowing down while addressing them as 'LORDS' (in the plural), the account of this Sacred Encounter has Abraham addressing the 'three strangers' in the SINGULAR... "Lord".

If one were a 'student of the Pentatuech' - or the Hebrew 'Torah' if you prefer - you would find an 'echo' of Abraham's doctrinal/dogmatic religious declaration about these 'three strangers' in the account of Genesis where we find this passage making mention of a PLURALITY with respect to the Creator Himself:

"GOD said, 'Let >>US<< make man in OUR own Image, in the likeness of OURSELVES." - Genesis1:26

How do the 'monotheistic' religions of Judaism and Islam make their claim to "historical validity" on account of Abraham's ecounter with the Supernatural in our day and age when they theologically DENY the Christian Church's dogmatic doctrine of "The Blessed Trinity" as they assert there is but ONE GOD while Abraham addresses these "three strangers" with the singular 'LORD' and God Himself refers to Himself as "OURSELVES"???

Either contemporary Judiasm and Islam are BOTH "right" - asserting there is but One God while both DENYING Christ and His Revelation of God the Father, Himself and God the Holy Spirit - thus BOTH making Abraham WRONG which undercuts their own 'claim to historical validity' and thus making their ENTIRE 'religion' WRONG/IN ERROR as well as the written text of Genesis on/about God FRIVOLOUS and SUPERFICIAL - or BOTH Judiasm and Islam are both WRONG/IN ERROR thus making Christ's Revelation and Teachings 100% ACCURATE, CORRECT and IMMUTABLE!

Either all devout/religous/pious JEWS and MUSLIMS are meant to become CHRISTIAN and all "christian denominations" are meant to ALL SUBMIT TO the Teachings of both Christ and His Apostles so that there is ONE UNIVERSAL religious Faith, Belief and Practice amongst 6 billion human beings - or we human beings have >>NO GOD<<!!

All human beings either AGREE that 2+2=4, the moon is NOT made out of cheese, water is wet and liquid BUT becomes a solid (ice) below freezing temperature, their is air in our earth's atmosphere, there are stars, a sun and planets in 'Outer Space', gravity is measured at 32.2 ft/sec^2 here in the USA as well as in Europe, Africa, Asia, etc. - and ALL OF US 6 billion human beings have 'One God' and this 'One God' gave us human beings >>HIS<< 'religion' 2,000 years ago in the Person of Jesus, the Christ - or we human beings individually and collectively CHOOSE TO deny God Himself so that we might advance/assert/promote our own personal "religion" which is a "religion of DENIAL of God Himself" which is simply the desire to impose the world over any variant of "mythical ATHEISM"!

- tocarm
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Sanders
post Feb 25 2007, 11:34 AM
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You're wasting your breath, tocarm, no matter how fervently you believe what you are saying. Simply, there are non-christians in the world who believe in god (I'm not gonna bother with the caps) - to say to them that because they don't accept christ they are heathens or they are wrong or that from that logic demands that there is no god etc. only serves to piss people off, and, as many of us know from our experiences over at LC, pissing people off isn't a very good way to convince anyone of anything.
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tocarm
post Feb 25 2007, 07:29 PM
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"Truth" has this uncanny way OF 'pissing people off'.

A certain historical figure about 2,000 years ago got Himself nailed to a Cross on account of 'The Truth' He taught, revealed and proclaimed.

"And there is NOTHING NEW under the sun." - Ecclesiastes

- tocrm

P.S. And it "pisses people off" in very high places going around telling other people that 9-11 was "an inside job".

"Truth? What is that?" The Roman Governor of Palestine many moons ago.
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Sanders
post Feb 25 2007, 08:50 PM
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Why can't I get through to you, tocarm? Go re-read your own above post - you are flat out telling people who believe differently than you do that they are wrong - which is preaching by any name... you refuse to abide by the rules for this thread I've stated numerous times. nonono.gif

Odd, tocarm, you seem to have missed the significance of the part in your own link that states that Muslims do belive in Christ. And how does it follow logically that if people who don't believe in your Christ are correct then God doesn't exist? I'm sorry, tocarm, but with all due respect and respect for what you believe, I can only read your posts as you saying "I and people who believe like me are right and everone else is wrong" - seems to me that sort of attitude has gotten the world into some trouble before ...

Sigh. What am I to do?

I think Sinewy is right. I'm saddened, but I think I have no choice but to close this thread. At least for now, I don't have time to spend here these days, and this conversation is going nowhere fast...
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tocarm
post Feb 25 2007, 10:04 PM
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Why are you so beligerent?? Why?

Why are you so "troubled" by THE FACT that God Himself took on our human INCARNATE nature in the Divine Person of Jesus of Nazareth - conceived in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary by the Power of God the Holy Spirit and born into our human race roughly 2,000 years ago?

I'm just simply STATING >FACT<. Historical FACT.

I'm a CATECHISM >TEACHER<. Put me in a 'pulpit', put me in front of 50,000 people gathered for a 'revival' in Yankee Stadium...and THEN you might say to me that I'm "preaching"!

So THE EBIONITES asserted that Christ's APOSTLES "got it all wrong" and sold their heretical Christology to an Arabian man named Mohammed, who then included THAT dogmatic/doctrinal statement about Christ as >>HIS<< "catechism lesson on Divine Things" in his writings referred to as 'The Qu'ran'.

Who is "preaching" here? Mohammed did HIS 'catechism teaching' via his Qu'ran to millions upon milllions - and they ALL accept his 'catechism lessons' as DIVINE TRUTH!

As a Catholic 'catechism teacher', I'm simply asserting that MOHAMMED "got it all wrong"!

Is that any reason to resort to 'ad hominem' against ME and what I post here?

So there are those who assert that the PROPHET MOHAMMED got it "right", and they call themselves followers of Islam. Then there are those others who say that the PROPHET MOHAMMED got it wrong....like the PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH of the Mormonism.

The Patron Saint of my religious order is St. Elijah who had HIS OWN confrontation with "false prophets" way, way BEFORE either Mohammed or Joe Smith. That account is given in the Old Testament book of 1st Kings:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...-40;&versio=31;

Father Elijah was "man enough" to confront the FALSE religious teachers who spun their MYTHS in order to "control" and "indoctrinate" the people into their own PERSONAL agendas.

I don't advocate killing anybody on account of their ficticious/erroneous religious beliefs. But I DO believe in giving them all THE FACTS with the hope and expectation that God the HOLY SPIRIT will move them to "repent", "convert" and utilize their God-given human INCARNATE natures in order to work at brining about 'The Kingdom Of God' alive and living here all across this planet earth.

"My People PERISH for want of knowledge." - the Prophet Hosea - Hosea 4:6

And I to be 'persecuted' for desiring people the world over to have the FULLNESS OF LIFE as God Incarnate desires for them to have - to include obtaining the Ultimate Spiritual 'Prize' of Eternal Life by their being endowed with God's Own DIVINE NATURE???

"We don't need no education...
We don't need no thought control...
TEACHER - LEAVE THOSE KIDS ALONE!"

And WITHOUT the knowledge that their TEACHER can give them all - all the 'little kiddies' throughout the world of any age are being led like those children in the fairy tale of the 'PIPED PIPER' into the very real hellish prospects of a thermonuclear THIRD WORLD WAR on account of their abandonment of the One, True God!

As a Catholic 'catechism teacher'...I >>CARE ENOUGH<< about my students to do everything in my power so they have the KNOWLEDGE, UNDERSTANDING and WISDOM to make the correct choices they MUST MAKE in order to have "The Blessed Life".

- tocarm
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tocarm
post Feb 26 2007, 01:37 PM
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Dear Sanders,

"The three CRITICAL Christian doctrines ISLAM DENIES are the Trinity, the Incarnation and the Resurrection. Like JUDIASM, Islam DENIES CHRIST'S CLAIM TO DIVINITY. Allah is oen; so who could He be three? Jesus is human; so how could He be divine? "It is unfitting for Allah to have a son," wrote Mohammed, apparently interpreting sonship biologically." - from on-line reference:

"Comparing Christianity & Islam"
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/...ics/ap0009.html

"Why Muslims Become Christians" @
http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/Testimonies/index.html

- tocarm
A Third Order Carmelite
http://carmelnet.org/toc/html/about.htm

In the service of the Mother of Jesus, THE CHRIST, complying with her personal call to me to come to THE DEFENSE of His Church here on earth:

http://www.ourcatholicfaith.org/zeitun.html

'Ne Transient!'

This post has been edited by tocarm: Feb 26 2007, 01:42 PM
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