Wtc 7 And Sandero, NIST v speculation Options

[kawika]

forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1918455&postcount=49

NDBoston
Scholar

Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 104
Truthseeker:

I actually worked at WTC7 and was there on 9-11. From the minute the first plane hit the towers, WTC7 was getting hit with debris.

In fact, when I finally got down to the lobby 45 minutes later, we were all forced to leave through the back since so much debris had hit the building and blocked the entrance.

I also would love to have someone tell me how the 28-44th floors were wired for demolition, when we packed like sardines after the merger with Smith Barney and most floors had people on them 7 days a week. ( A few floors were trading floors so it was 24x7 and many worked 6-7 days a week), and I never saw one construction crew in my time there doing anything significant.

Why won't CT's talk to people who worked at WTC7? My friends and I who worked with at Salomon are eager to talk but I'm guessing you won't like the answers.
Last edited by NDBoston; 13th September 2006 at 06:12 AM. Reason: spelling corrections

ALSO

In the Hess video, I see a ramp below him and a back door next to the cop car! [frame 2:38] Perhaps to Con-Ed?

1. Why did it take this guy 45 minutes to get down?
2. He only questions the wiring for CD of the 28th through 44th floors. That leaves 27 floors where he had no observations. The CD we saw on 9/11 took place near the bottom and only required eight floors to achieve the free-fall measured.
3. Ramp under Hess is the truck ramp leading to WTC complex. It also provided access to columns 79, 80, and 81 which were on the right sidewalk going down.

[elreb]

1. Why did it take this guy 45 minutes to get down?
2. He only questions the wiring for CD of the 28th through 44th floors. That leaves 27 floors where he had no observations. The CD we saw on 9/11 took place near the bottom and only required eight floors to achieve the free-fall measured.

I had the same thoughts about NDBoston, his answers are unrelated to the issue.

@OSS

Those large files I downloaded were worthless as they did not include architectural, electrical or mechanical drawings.

If they did I could determine where that northside back door went to.

@SanderO
Could you ask Joe about north side exits

[elreb]

New webpage for WTC7 = http://www.rebrammer.com/x2.htm

[SanderO]

Elreb,

Give me the specific questions you have and I will ask Joe. He seems to know a fair amount about B7. I don't think he's a OCT or a 911 truth guy... if that's possible.

Kawika, The lower 8 flrs especially above the Con Ed sub station (the core and north side) would actually have at most 4 floors of structure of the sub station occupied 3 floors.... as the columns were in 2 story segments... 6&7 had the T trusses and cantilever girders... But this confuses me as to why the T trusses etc were not placed just above the sub station. Why did they choose those floors to offset the core columns? Was there something about floors 4 and 5 that made the engineers set the T trusses 2 stories higher?

The 8 story FF descent seems as if the failure was at the bottom of 8 or at 6&7.

Let's see the plans from 1-8

[elreb]

Give me the specific questions you have and I will ask Joe. He seems to know a fair amount about B7. I don't think he's a OCT or a 911 truth guy... if that's possible.

Ask Joe, how was “NDBoston” able to exit WTC7 from the north side.

Ask him ...From when to when did he work there.

Does he have pictures or blue prints?

It may be too late but when you ask Joe questions try to remain neutral and not ask negative questions.

[kawika]

WTC7 Structural Drawings

Floor 1--
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/8287/wtc7cantors1.png

Floor 2--
http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/4088/wtc7cantors2.png

Floor 3--
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/2192/wtc7cantors3.png

Floor 4--
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/5233/wtc7cantors4.png

Floor 5--
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/9015/wtc7cantors5.png

Floor 5a--
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/2751/wtc7cantors5a.png

Floor 6--
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/576/wtc7cantors6.png

Floor 7--
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/5784/wtc7cantors7.png

Floor 8--
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/6092/wtc7cantors8.png

[SanderO]

Ask Joe, how was "NDBoston" able to exit WTC7 from the north side.

Ask him ...From when to when did he work there.

Does he have pictures or blue prints?

It may be too late but when you ask Joe questions try to remain neutral and not ask negative questions.

I do try to remain neutral when I interview someone. I kinda doubt he has plans... but I will ask and find out what contract he had. He did tell me he was called at 1 am when the 138.000 volt feed was lost... and there were Con Ed engineers at the meeting. They determined it was from sloppy work in street excavation.

This post has been edited by SanderO: May 15 2012, 10:08 PM

[SanderO]

These files don't open up.

[onesliceshort]

Aah! I thought Elreb was in WTC7...

As for some floors being two stories, I had read that this was for the large screens for stock traders á la Wall Street open floor plan. The media supplied this info so...

I'll dig out the link..

'We really had a time constraint,'' explained Gedale B. Horowitz, a senior executive director of Salomon. ''And we were driven very much by technology. We had to find a building that could accommodate our needs, including major-sized trading floors.'

Much of the new electrical, air-conditioning and mechanical equipment will serve three double-height trading floors. To create the extra height, workers are removing most of three existing floors, using jackhammers to demolish concrete slabs and torches to remove steel decking and girders beneath the concrete.

In some office buildings, that alteration would be impossible, but Silverstein Properties tried to second-guess the needs of potential tenants when it designed Seven World Trade Center as a speculative project.

''We built in enough redundancy to allow entire portions of floors to be removed without affecting the building's structural integrity, on the assumption that someone might need double-height floors,'' said Larry Silverstein, president of the company. ''Sure enough, Salomon had that need.

''And there were many other ways that we designed as much adaptability as possible into the building because we knew that flexible layout is important to large space users.''

@kawika

I'm having trouble seeing those plans. Is it a "flash" download?

[elreb]

He did tell me he was called at 1 am when the 138.000 volt feed was lost... and there were Con Ed engineers at the meeting.

So Joe was there on 911?

I have no problem with 13,800 Volt feeders being lost

I do have a problem with 138,000 Volt feeds being lost.

He was there 1 am on what day?

[SanderO]

I don't think that incident was on 9/11. I don't think he was there that day. I may see him this weekend... If not the next and I will get his phone number...

Joe works for:

http://www.lkcomstock.com/sites/default/fi...ull-10-7-11.pdf

He was not there on 9/11.

He said he thought there were no exits on the north side

This post has been edited by SanderO: May 16 2012, 07:19 PM

[elreb]

He said he thought there were no exits on the north side

Ok, so where did the East side stairs exit...on the ramp or what?

Maybe north was simple a direction to run in...

[SanderO]

I couldn't read the plans linked to above... Joe thought that the stairs came out on the level of the foot bridge across Vesey street, but he wasn't sure.

We need to see the plans!

[elreb]

We need to see the plans!

This is what I said above: large files I downloaded were worthless as they did not include architectural, electrical or mechanical drawings.

[elreb]

My bad… It was the backside of the staircase…not the building...oops

“We went through the building. We were lost”
“Both staircases”
“The backside was completely blown away”
“There was no way to access”

[SanderO]

You might want to re read this thread I started.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...;#entry10794362

OSS,

I wrote a speculative explanation of the collapse of B7. I did propose there were diesel fueled fires. It happened to be what the structural engineered happen to state which I found out AFTER I posted the *theory* when Kawika posted links to Cantor.

The logic that YOU haven't seen evidence of diesel fires.. or several *groups* who have proven to be less than trustworthy and honest have said their were no diesel fires is not evidence that there were none.. ESPECIALLY WHEN THAT STATEMENT WOULD BE SELF INCRIMINATING.

Here's Con Ed in action:

"Chelsea Substation Is Rejected As New Con Ed Power Source

A Consolidated Edison plan to build a towering electric substation in Chelsea has been rejected by the city's Board of Standards and Appeals. The plan, blocked late Tuesday, was opposed by Chelsea residents, community groups and politicians who said the nine-story substation would harm the neighborhood's revival.

Opponents of the plan, who formed a neighborhood organization, the Chelsea Alliance, said the Con Ed substation would create a ''dead block'' in the middle of Chelsea, the revitalizing residential and commercial neighborhood in Manhattan. The Con Ed proposal suggested a site on Sixth Avenue north of 24th Street on a parking lot that has long been the site of a popular flea market.

The alliance argued that Con Edison could build the substation on land that it owns at 28th Street bounded by 11th and 12th Avenues. Con Edison officials contended that they need the far West Side site for parking. But the alliance argued that Con Edison was actually trying to hold that land to benefit from any increase in its value if the city is successful in redeveloping the far West Side."

ALL THEORIES are speculative until they are tested. You obviously are not understanding the scientific method here. My *theory* WAS based on precisely the observations that Tom reports about with respect to B7's motion. He doesn't speculate on what initiated that motion... I did. And you guys jump all over me.

BUT the speculation that the initiation was CD .. explosives for which there is no PROVEN evidence is fine and dandy with you guys. That's hypocritical.

It appears that you simply can't accept a NON MIHOP explanation - no way Jose. And that makes someone who proposes one a NIST or OCT shill.

Gimme a break!

This post has been edited by SanderO: May 21 2012, 02:57 PM

[elreb]

9:00 – 9:30 am over 1000 people in WTC7. None report any fires

9:59 am south tower collapse

10:00 am WCT7 fire alarm goes off for the first time but soon goes clear. Cause was most likely dust from south tower collapse or carbon monoxide.

11:30 am apparent rescue time of Jennings/Hess. NYFD report no fires or seeing any.

Conclusion: Everyone was under the influence of mass hypnosis or on LSD.

[elreb]

Has anyone posted this yet?

This is from the Thermate doctor.

http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/...11SciMethod.pdf

[SanderO]

What a funny paper... some good stuff and some silly nonsense. Such is life.. you take the good with the bad.

I like his point about NIST ignoring floors 1-8... got that one right Jones...

I like that he noted massive explosion(s) were what Hess and Jennings experienced and ignores the mystery of NIST not detailing what was on floors 1-8... perhaps something there could explode and it wasn't a planted device Jones?

Tell the people about things which explode which are not bombs.... You can do it Dr Jones...

What about a little step down power transformer?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hy6UXxhzYlk

"Why Do Transformers Explode?

Transformers explode when an electric power line running to a transformer suddenly transmits far too much electricity for the circuits within the transformer to process. The most common way that this can happen is during a lightning strike. There are automatic shutoffs within the transformer when too much power reaches it. They turn off within 60 milliseconds of having detected an energy spike; unfortunately, this is about 5 times too slow to do any good. The extra electricity heats up and melts the circuit. The circuits are made to be heat resistant and are kept cool by several gallons of refined mineral oil in a closed chamber. Despite this, the circuit becomes red hot and fails in a shower of electrical sparks, superheating and igniting the mineral oil. The mineral oil combusts explosively, causing a loud bang and sending metal shrapnel that was once the transformer scything everywhere.


Read more: Why Do Transformers Explode? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how-does_4578514_why-d...1vkLwHswR"

Here's another example:

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2011/05/11/amazing...-in-fort-worth/

and:

Power Transformer Breakdowns and Explosions

Older power transformers were originally designed to last between thirty and forty years. Surprisingly many of these transformers are still in use today after fifty to sixty years of operation. Their manufacturers did not anticipate the overwhelming increase in the electricity demand that we experience today and so the transformers are required to cope with increased loads.

The insulating materials of older power transformers comprise of cellulose and oil. Over time they absorb water which deteriorates the cellulose's insulating ability. In the case of heavy loads, water can also turn to steam which evolves in the form of bubbles. Degradation of insulating materials is one of the most important reasons for power transformer breakdown. In some extreme cases the problem can cause a power transformer explosion.

The combination of higher-than-expected transformer age - and therefore high levels of degradation - and increased loading have produced a significant increase in power transformer explosions in the USA in the late 1990's.

And another:

A ground fault on a capacitor bank on the low voltage (LV) side of this electrical substation creates an arcing fault that behaves like an uncontrollable welding torch from Hell, chewing up everything in its path. Unfortunately, protection hardware fails to open the high voltage (HV) side or is unable to sense the presence of the fault. Excessive current eventually causes the windings on the substation's power transformer to overheat, severely cooking its innards and bringing the mineral oil inside to the boiling point. In a vain attempt to prevent the transformer's tank from exploding, pressure release valves or a failing tank gasket vents clouds of superheated oil vapor. The foggy mist of hot oil is then ignited by the LV arc, causing it to explode in a ball of flame. This is followed by a phase-to-phase short circuit, perhaps caused by a flashover within the flames or by a heat induced fault within the transformer . This causes a high voltage expulsion fuse to blow with a flash and a resounding BANG, finally killing power to the substation.

However, by this time, the overheated transformer's tank fails, and it dumps hundreds of gallons of flaming mineral oil onto the already devastated substation. Local firefighters can only watch from a distance since there's no way to safely fight this fire, and the substation is a total loss. As linemen often say, "Firemen don't mess with their wires, and linemen don't mess with their fires". A very sobering look at the explosive power lurking within that quietly humming substation in your neighborhood...

NOTE: Based on recent inputs from employees of Florida Power and Light (FPL), this event occurred at the Ives Dairy Substation located near San Simeon Way and Biscayne Boulevard in Miami, Florida. It is believed to have occurred in 2000 or 2001, and the footage was captured by a local resident from property that was adjacent to a country club and golf course. The root cause was a defective fuse holder associated with motor-operated high voltage switches. Substation switchgear was disabled when a small fuse blew, opening power to the motors on protective high voltage switches. Normally, the blown fuse would trigger an alarm to the dispatcher so that the problem could be promptly fixed. However, in this case, the defective fuse holder also prevented an alarm from being sent, so the power company was unaware that the substation was now unprotected.

http://www.komar.org/christmas/faq/exploding_transformer.mpg

Some time later, a low voltage side capacitor bank failed, creating an arcing fault that could no longer be cleared, since protection hardware was inoperable. The ongoing, undetected arcing fault ultimately led to the total destruction of the substation. Although at least one report indicated that the spray of white mist might have been water from a fire suppression system, it is now known that this particular substation did not employ an active fire suppression system, and the spray was, in fact, a "fog" of vaporized mineral oil. If you can provide more information about this event, please contact me.

Dr J... could you rule out exploding transformers with your scientific approach?

This post has been edited by SanderO: May 23 2012, 09:40 PM

[elreb]

5.3.5 Power

Power to WTC7 entered at 13,800 Volts was stepped down to 480/277 Volts by “Silicone oil-filled” transformers in individual masonry vaults on the 5th floor and was distributed throughout the building.

Benefits of Silicone Transformer Oil over Petroleum-based oils [mineral oil]

STO-50 provides major benefits when considering safety issues. These include:

High flash point and fire point [Flash point = 572 F; Fire point = 649 F]
– can be placed close to a building or installed indoors within National Code guidelines

“Self extinguishing” – provides safest operating environment where fire potential is a concern

Low rate of heat release, smoke evolution and toxicity – minimal damage from fire, as it “self extinguishes” and low heat evolution during a fire.

Silicone transformer fluids allow for transformer systems that are “fire safe”, environmentally friendly and offer lower operating costs when compared to their counterparts.