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Sanders' Religion Thread, Begun @ LC Forum

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post Nov 11 2006, 08:12 AM
Post #41





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Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 30 2006, 03:50 AM

Hey, usediscernment, you need to understand that we believe in the same One God, but we have different concepts about Him. Just quit saying that "Allah" is a separate deity, for that is false. It is not true that "Allah" is supposed to be used in every language. That is false. Many Muslims do that because they are ignorant, but again, don't judge a car by its driver. And I have some questions about how you believe in God (notice how I didn't say your God). In the Bible, you believe that God got drunk. Explain this: Then the Lord awoke as from sleep, as a man wakes from the stupor of wine. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 78:65)" Come on now, this is really ludicrous! If GOD gets drunk and/or goes to sleep, then what kind of a god is He?! No offense to any Jew or Christian, but please answer this. "Then the Lord AWOKE......" is pretty much clear and self explanatory! He may not "sleep" like we do, but he certainly appears to have been away or not knowing or not controlling of His Creation at that time or moment! Now, you might say that this is only symbolic and I shouldn't take it literally from the Bible. Well first of all, isn't GOD Almighty supposed to be formal and "professional" as we say it today, with us? If you want to consider the entire Bible as the perfect book of GOD Almighty, then you must take everything in it formally. The Bible also claims that the earth is set firm on pillars and it never moves. How can I take this claim symbolically and not seriously when we know today that the earth is an egg-shaped sphere, and doesn't stand on any pillars, and it certainly does move?! By the way, the Noble Quran does claim that the earth is "egg-shaped", and it does swim in space along with the other planets and stars. It also claimed that the space is "expanding" as it was scientifically proven to be true. Science is on the Koran's side, and not the Bible's so people who are really knowlegeable in science will realize that the Koran is more accurate in science and is more consistent. The Bible contains numerous ridiculous contradictions. For instance:

"And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen. (From the KJV Bible, 1 Kings 4:26)"

"And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem. (From the KJV Bible, 2 Chronicles 9:25)"

Explain that.
Now any normal reader would raise this simple question: How many stalls of horses did King Solomon have?

Can the Bible give a definite answer to this? No!

It's not the number or the piece of information that is important here. No body really cares about how many stalls of horses Solomon had. But the serious issue here is that how on earth can we trust that either the book of Kings or Chronicles were truly inspired by GOD Almighty?!
Anyway, to further prove that the above Psalm 78:65 verse from the bible is a bunch of garbage, it is important to know that neither of the bible's books and gospels are really valid. The authors of the books and gospels of the bible are unknown. Let's see the proof for ourselves:

The books of Psalm:

The following quotes were taken from the article "Just who were the real authors of the Bible?" Today's Books and Gospels' authors of the Bible are UNKNOWN. See the comments from the NIV Bible itself! Just why in the world should I believe in today's Bible?

The Bibliography of the NIV Bible that I used is listed in the above link.

"Regarding authorship, opinions are even more divided. The notations themselves are ambiguous since the Hebrew phraseology used, meaning in general "belonging to", an also be taken in the sense of "concerning" or "for the use of" or "dedicated to". The name may refer to the title of a collection of Psalms that had been gathered under a certain name. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 773)"

"The Psalms consist of one hundred fifty poems of Israel written at different times by different authors, though mainly by David, around 1000 B.C.
..........
Because of the vast range of human feelings expressed in the Psalms, this book remains one of the best loved and most used books of the Bible. (From the King James Version Bible Commentary, page 801)"

As we clearly see above from the NIV and KJV Bibles' commentaries, this book can not be considered as the True Words of GOD Almighty, because it was written by many unknown authors! There is no proof that these authors were True Messengers of GOD Almighty. Another corruption and man-made alterations had invaded the Bible and corrupted it.

This corrupted book claims that the Earth is flat and never moves:

"He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 104:5)"

Since when the Earth is flat and can never move?! We all know that the Earth and the other planets rotate and move in space around the Sun.

For those Jews and Christians who would like to see where in the Noble Quran does Allah Almighty say that the planets in space rotate and move, read the following Noble Verse:

"It is He who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its orbit with its own motion. (The Noble Quran, 21:33)"


Explain all of that. Enough of your false claims of "Allah" and "God" being different gods. Don't try to mess with the Koran, when you should look at the Bible first. I still have much more to say about the Bible, but I'll wait for you to answer these unanswerable questions.
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:12 AM
Post #42





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Posted by: Sanders Jul 30 2006, 04:41 AM

To Usediscernment,

Thanks for the posts, but we don't need this. Do you realise what you are saying? Think about it for a second. You are saying Muslims don't worship the same God because they call him(/her?) by a different name. If anything, the Bible is more confused about who/what he is because they never settle on a single name ! But that's not the point. In actuality, Muslims worship the same God, Islam believes in many of the same things and events and prophets as Christians and Jews because the religions all grew from the SAME SOURCE

The Japanese go to a shrine, clap their hands 3 times throw money into a pit, pray to a god of prosperity and hope that their business will do well. They're PAGANS by any definition. Do you feel anger toward them for that?

I live in Japan, I can assure you they are very nice, interesting people. Should we bomb Tokyo once more because they are all 'infidels'? No, that's ridiculous. Should we kill Muslims because they ALMOST believe the same stuff as us, but there are discrepancies and they got the name wrong - they had the timerity write it in Arabic ...??? Wait till we get to the Crusades, when the Pope told Christians all over Europe to go to the Holy Land and kill as many Muslim infidels as they can - that they would be forgiven their sins and go to heaven if they killed Muslims (!!!???!!!). It is pure insanity. The Jihad that resulted is still in effect today, a thousand years later, and the ripple effect of that state-religious sponsored propoganda is still alive in the hearts of Christians ... Bush and Co. are trying (fairly successfully I might add) to revive it. When George Bush Sr. bombed Baghdad in 1990 the Arab headlines proclaimed 'Crusade!!!'. They were probably right, this is probably just another instance of Christians going to the Holy Land to kill infidels. The invaders aren't representing Christianity per-se, they are representing "America", and it wasn't enough for the Pope to make a speech, they needed 9/11 and a lot of malarky about WMD to convice them it was the right thing to do, but there are almost as many similarities between the two as there are between the Bible and the Koran, if you get my drift.

Anyway, this is NOT a thread about who worships the true God, if you want to post, get with the program. Here we are abolutely TOLERANT about what other people believe, it is the only road to peace. If you don't GET it, read the first post one more time. If you don't understand what tolerant means, look it up in the dictionary, you're a grown up. OK? Got it?

Great Muslim gets a reprieve, he was rebutting.

With all due respect and good will, THIS STOPS NOW.

Thanks

I'm cool with GM10's account of Joseph being sold into slavery - any problems? How does it get from there to Moses taking the Jews out of Egypt? Did Joseph just represent one of the 12 tribes? Were all of Moses' jews descendants of Joseph?
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:12 AM
Post #43





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Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 30 2006, 04:51 AM


QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 30 2006 @ 04:41 AM)
Should we kill Muslims because they ALMOST believe the same stuff as us, but there are discrepancies and they got the name wrong - they had the timerity write it in Arabic ...???


I agree with everything that you are saying, but we didn't get the name wrong. Even Arab Christians and Arab Jews say "Allah". English Muslims say "God." It's only the matter of which language you speak.
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:12 AM
Post #44





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Posted by: Sanders Jul 30 2006, 05:01 AM

QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Jul 30 2006 @ 01:51 PM)
QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 30 2006 @ 04:41 AM)

Should we kill Muslims because they ALMOST believe the same stuff as us, but there are discrepancies and they got the name wrong - they had the timerity write it in Arabic ...??? 

I agree with everything that you are saying, but we didn't get the name wrong. Even Arab Christians and Arab Jews say "Allah". English Muslims say "God." It's only the matter of which language you speak.


doh1.gif

From the CHRISTIAN point of view ! I know, I know, I meant that "from the Christian point of view", Arabs 'got the name wrong'. Don't take it seriously - I was making a point... that's not what I meant.
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:13 AM
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Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 30 2006, 05:11 AM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 30 2006 @ 04:41 AM)
I'm cool with GM10's account of Joseph being sold into slavery - any problems? How it get from there to Moses taking the Jews out of Egypt?  Did Joseph just represent one of the 12 tribes?  Were all of Moses' jews descendants of Joseph? 

About going from the Joseph story to Moses taking the Israelis out of Egypt, it was just a fun fact thrown in at the end. It really had no significance to the story of Joseph. Yes, Joseph represents one of the 12 tribes. I'm not sure if all of Moses Israeli descendants were of Joseph. As for why I say Israelis instead of Jews is because God calls them the Children of Israel in the Qur'an. Those children of Israel, however, have become Jews and they are the Jews of today. God mentions how He chose the Children of Israel many times in the Qur'an and how they deceived Him and broke the covenant which He made with Abraham. Which prophet would you like to talk about next? And just for the record, we believe that all prophets and messengers of God were Muslims. We believe that to be a Muslim before the descension of the Qur'an and the coming of the final prophet and messenger, Muhammad, you had to believe in One God, the revelations (or holy books sent by God to His messengers), in angels of God, prophets and messengers of God, the afterlife (including Heaven, Hell, Judgement Day and Day of Resurrection, and etc.), and predestination. So if you lived during the time of Moses, to be a Muslim, you would have had to believe in God, believed in the previous prophets and messengers (including Adam, Noah, Abraham, and etc.), you would also have to believe that Moses was a prophet and messenger of God, and you would have to believe in and follow the Torah. In Jesus's time, you would have had to believe in the previous prophets and messengers, including Jesus, believe in God, of course, and believe in the Torah, believe in the Psalms, and believe in and follow the Gospel. The term Jews and Christians don't apply to prophets and messengers of God in Islam. We don't believe that Islam was created and founded by Muhammad. We believe it has always existed and to have been a Muslim you would have had to do what is mentioned above.
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:13 AM
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Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 30 2006, 05:13 AM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 30 2006 @ 05:01 AM)
QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Jul 30 2006 @ 01:51 PM)
QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 30 2006 @ 04:41 AM)
Should we kill Muslims because they ALMOST believe the same stuff as us, but there are discrepancies and they got the name wrong - they had the timerity write it in Arabic ...??? 

I agree with everything that you are saying, but we didn't get the name wrong. Even Arab Christians and Arab Jews say "Allah". English Muslims say "God." It's only the matter of which language you speak. 

doh1.gif

From the CHRISTIAN point of view ! I know, I know, I meant that "from the Christian point of view", Arabs 'got the name wrong'. Don't take it seriously - I was making a point... that's not what I meant.

Wait, I don't get it. Do Christians believe we got the name wrong? I'm not upset, I'm just really curious.
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:13 AM
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Posted by: Sanders Jul 30 2006, 06:06 AM

QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Jul 30 2006 @ 02:13 PM)
Do Christians believe we got the name wrong?  I'm not upset, I'm just really curious.

I have no idea - I doubt it. I was just addressing what usediscernment was saying, speaking from that viewpoint to show the absurdity of it. let's just let it go...?

I've been scratching my head, trying to figure out why Joseph's name isn't on the maps of the 12 tribes, even though he's one of the 12 male children

I found this that explains it
http://goodnewschristianministry.org/twelvetribes.htm
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:13 AM
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Posted by: Sinewy Jul 30 2006, 06:23 AM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 30 2006 @ 04:41 AM)
In actuallity, Muslims worship the same God, Islam believes in many of the same things and events and prophets as Christians and Jews because the religions all grew from the SAME SOURCE

Should we kill Muslims because they ALMOST believe the same stuff as us, but there are discrepancies and they got the name wrong - they had the timerity write it in Arabic ...??? 

First off, Sanders, since you are the referee here, userdiscernment's demonizing Islam is done with hateful intent. As well, he is instigating once again with sheer ignorance for the purpose of polarization in this forum. I don't want to bring polemics into this debate, but if you allow me, I would counter every argument he has against Islam. His arguments are the same ordure that you can find in the anti-islam sites on the net. He should have given credit where it was given.

Next: I quoted you above and edited the rest from your post. Muslims believe in the same creator and God as the Jews and Christians, but the Christian would counter argue and disagree. They claim that the Muslim's God is different because "He" is not anthropomorphic as is the Christian God and doesn't have a "Son". Hence, there can be an apparent difference and perception of 2 different gods.
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post Nov 11 2006, 11:04 AM
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Posted by: pr0mythiuJul 30 2006, 06:35 AM

QUOTE (Daniels @ Jul 29 2006 @ 05:07 PM)
QUOTE (pr0mythius @ Jul 29 2006 @ 08:04 AM)

isnt it safe to say that any one ever called a prophet is really no more than just someone that said something that made sense to a lotta people so they deamed it as truth .. or the forecasting there of?



That is a very common supposition pr0mythius.

However, if we look a little closer at the concept we can see that it doesn't actually work.

For example, there have been many great philosopers who have had exceedingly wise insights into reality but few if any people have been inclined to lay their life on the line for the teachings of those philosophers.

With religion on the other hand, history demonstrates that wise, cleanly, calm, gentle people will willingly lay down their lives rather than give up their faith.

During the 1800s over 20,000 Baha'is were killed by the authorities in Persia who wanted to squash the religion. And history is replete with the early Muslims, Christians and Jews who valiantly laid down their lives for their faith.

Thus, holy Prophets of God inspire in Their followers a love and devotion that is supernatural.

---------------------------------------------------------------
An anecdote I heard about Abraham when He was a child is quite interesting.

His father was an idol maker in Ur. That was his profession. As a child, Abraham tried to get His father to stop making idols that others could worship, and suggested that His father should recognize that there was only one God.

His father refused to stop making the idols.

One day while the family were out, Abraham smashed all the idols except one.

When His father returned he was furious.

"Who did this?!" he demanded.

Abraham replied, "This idol rose up and smashed all the others".

"But that's impossible," exclaimed His father.

"Then why do you worship them?" asked Abraham.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry I don't have anything to add to the history bit Sanders. My knowledge of religious history is based mainly on what They stood for rather than an accurate chronological sequence.

ok i've fallen behind on this thread ... but basically what you're saying .. is that the diff between and philosopher and a prophet .. is that many people will die for what a prophet has said?

hmmmm ... in that case ... prophets are evil. perhaps they didnt want people to kill because of what they prophecied ... but .. yea .. thats kinda messed up ... anyone that would kill someone just because they dont agree with what some other person said ... is off thier freaking rocker.

once again i must say that the concept of a holy war is the biggest load of crap i've ever heard. dont mean to sound quite so blunt ...... well ... then again ... yea i do. i would say i have a way better than average concept of "god" ... and to think that god would sign off on the destruction of anyone is f*@king rediculous.

least thats what i think.
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post Nov 11 2006, 11:04 AM
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Posted by: Sinewy Jul 30 2006, 06:40 AM

QUOTE
once again i must say that the concept of a holy war is the biggest load of crap i've ever heard.


The Holy War is a myth propagated for those that hate religion. Take a look at Islam for example.

In Islam there is no such thing as HOLY WAR. It is the common myth to translate Jihad as a Holy War. Show me in the Qur'an where Jihad means and translates to Holy War.
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post Nov 11 2006, 11:04 AM
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Posted by: pr0mythiusJul 30 2006, 06:51 AM


i've always considered that the fighting muslims have been a part of had nothing to do with religion. but just the christians and thier crusades and such seem to feed off the term holy war ... like its some self-righteous action.
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post Nov 11 2006, 11:04 AM
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Posted by: Sinewy Jul 30 2006, 07:04 AM

QUOTE (pr0mythius @ Jul 30 2006 @ 06:51 AM)
i've always considered that the fighting muslims have been a part of had nothing to do with religion.  but just the christians and thier crusades and such seem to feed off the term holy war ... like its some self-righteous action.

War is ordained by God in all the Abrahamic religions in one shape or form. But terming it Holy War is mainstream bandwagon propaganda.

With regards to Islam, jihad can be seen in terms of fighting (Qital in `Arabic). Jihad comes from juhd, meaning struggle. The traditionalists and mufassirin (Quranic commentators) have translated the term Jihad to mean fight. Jihad may have other meanings. Jihad can be a struggle to overcome against one's desires (nafs). Jihad has to be seen in context in the Qur'an as well as in hadith (Muhammad's sayings, actions, etc.) literature to render its proper meaning. If you study classical Islam and the Shari'ah, there are detailed explanations of Jihad by scholars (when it can be done, by whom, obligatory or not, offensive or defensive, not compulsory until the advent of the Mahdi, etc.).
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post Nov 11 2006, 11:05 AM
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Posted by: pr0mythius Jul 30 2006, 07:07 AM

QUOTE (Sinewy @ Jul 30 2006 @ 07:04 AM)
War is ordained by God in all the Abrahamic religions in one shape or form. But terming it Holy War is mainstream bandwagon propaganda.


god wants war? blink.gif
what god do you recognize ... are we talking about the same entity?
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post Nov 11 2006, 11:05 AM
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Posted by: Sinewy Jul 30 2006, 07:11 AM

QUOTE (pr0mythius @ Jul 30 2006 @ 07:07 AM)
QUOTE (Sinewy @ Jul 30 2006 @ 07:04 AM)
War is ordained by God in all the Abrahamic religions in one shape or form.  But terming it Holy War is mainstream bandwagon propaganda.

god wants war?
what god do you recognize ... are we talking about the same entity?

Well religion, in this case the 3 Abrahamic ones, are thought to be revelations from God by their particular followers.
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post Nov 11 2006, 11:05 AM
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Posted by: pr0mythius Posted: Jul 30 2006, 07:15 AM


yea ... by the followers ... we're supposed to put our stock in the interpretation of these people? until i see probable cause to think otherwise ... organised religion is just a tool to control the masses.
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post Nov 11 2006, 11:05 AM
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Posted by: Sinewy Jul 30 2006, 07:18 AM

QUOTE (pr0mythius @ Jul 30 2006 @ 07:15 AM)
yea ... by the followers ... we're supposed to put our stock in the interpretation of these people? until i see probable cause to think otherwise ... organised religion is just a tool to control the masses.


That is the ancient materialistic/marxist approach. That has no effect on the "believers".

If wars are justified by the rhetoric of God, then one would not be in a loss if followed, specifically if a catastrophe falls upon him and his family? Should he not defend his family and possessions?
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post Nov 11 2006, 11:06 AM
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Posted by: Sanders Jul 30 2006, 07:18 AM

OK, I've fallen behind. I haven't read the last few posts yet but I'll post this before I get even more behind while I read them...

QUOTE (Sinewy @ Jul 30 2006 @ 03:23 PM)
I don't want to bring polemics into this debate, but if you allow me, I would counter every argument he has against Islam....


Let's not. - what I'm trying to say to usediscernment isn't whether he's right or wrong about the Muslim God being HIS God or not, it's that telling someone else that what they believe is wrong is counterproductive. I have to respect undiscernment and allow HIM to believe whatever he wants. If we're lucky, some people will learn that Islam is not so different from Judaeo-Christian religions - but you'll never teach anyone anything by arguing about it, you just make people defend their positions more strongly. Let it go. No one wins these battles, unless they chose not to fight them.

If anyone can explain it to me, how'd all the jews wind up in Egypt? I figured out that Jacob and his other sons went to Egypt during a drought, but they didn't stay, right? They had to "populate" the tribes, right? These were the only jews on the planet, this little family, right? Moses was from the tribe of Levi (separated from the story of Joseph in Egypt by about 3 or 400 years? ), how'd he wind up born in Egypt? Why are all these jews flocking to Egypt to be slaves? Did the Pharos come and capture them? And when Moses leads them all back, all the stories give the impression that the promised land is empty of jews. Is this true? Where'd they all go? I know they weren't scattered by the Assyrian invasion, that doesn't happen for another 800 years or so, after Solomon and all of that... How strong is the Jewish argument that they were given this land by God if they kept packing up and leaving? Or did they not leave, were Moses' jews with their 10 commandments just a small part of the jewish population after that?? Forgive me for being daft and asking stupid questions, - but I bet most people don't know the answers to them. I could look it up, but I'm sure there are plenty of posters that could explain it easily...

Onegai

(Onegai is Japanese - it means 'please', kind of. More like, "I humbly beg you to be good to me" but it doesn't come off wierd like that. More like sayin, "cool?")
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post Nov 11 2006, 11:06 AM
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Posted by: Sinewy Jul 30 2006, 07:30 AM


QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 30 2006 @ 07:18 AM)
Let's not. - what I'm trying to say to usediscernment isn't whether he's right or wrong about the Muslim God being HIS God or not, it's that telling someone else that what they believe is wrong is counterproductive. I have to respect undiscernment and allow HIM to believe whatever he wants. If we're lucky, some people will learn that Islam is not so different from Judaeo-Christian religions - but you'll never teach anyone anything by arguing about it, you just make people defend their positions more strongly. Let it go. No one wins these battles, unless they chose not to fight them.


Everyone has the right to believe what they wish, including usediscernment and anyone else.

I agree to the point in terms of coming together that we should not say "you are wrong" and "I am right". But my thought and intent was to give rebuttals to the ridiculous judgements usediscernment has regarding Islam. That can have a negative effect. If it stays as it is, then it may be believable and accepted as true.

There are different approaches to everything.
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post Nov 11 2006, 11:06 AM
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Posted by: Sinewy Jul 30 2006, 07:38 AM

QUOTE
If anyone can explain it to me, how'd all the jews wind up in Egypt?


Well Joseph, Jacob's son, was shipped to Egypt by his brothers as a slave. Islam and the Old Testament both agree to the jealousy that resonated amongst Joseph's brothers.
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post Nov 11 2006, 11:06 AM
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Posted by: Sanders Jul 30 2006, 07:49 AM

QUOTE (prOmythias)
and to think that god would sign off on the destruction of anyone is f*@king rediculous.

least thats what i think.

Yeah, I think so too. Ridiculous, but, unfortunately there is a long-held belief with some (backed up by passages in the Bible) that God has said (actually PEOPLE said that God said, or what people thought that they'd like for God to have said to justify what they did or were going to do...) to peoples, (I'm paraphrasing) believe in me and only me and for anyone who doesn't, it's ok to kill them. I'm no old-testement scholar, but I am sure there are passages that justify the Israelite's displacing the Canaanites by their primacy there being ordained by God. ...There was a great slaughter of the indigenous peoples of Canaan by the Israelites that displaced them I'm almost sure - I wish I knew when and under what circumstances, hopefully that'll also become clearer.

As for Jihad, I am aware also that the word simply means 'stuggle'. But if the people you are struggling against are waging a holy war against you (I'm talking about the Crusades for example), doesn't your Jihad become in essence, your part in that holy war? Semantics probably -

QUOTE
I agree to the point in terms of coming together that we should not say "you are wrong" and "I am right". But my thought and intent was to give rebuttals to the ridiculous judgements usediscernment has regarding Islam. That can have a negative effect. If it stays as it is, then it may be believable and accepted as true.


Briefly then - address his factual errors and be done with it. You get my point that you can never convince anyone of anything by arguing with them about it, right? That's human nature. With that in mind have at it.
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