Pentagon Lawn Images, Chronological order Options

[kawika]

An image of the forktruck, standing up, and trailering the TITAN Firetruck.

http://old.911digitalarchive.org/crr/image...uments/3695.htm

[dMz]

Yeah, I don't see the forklift in any other images (as yet).

http://www.asia.ru/en/ProductInfo/1349744.html

The time sequence of when/how that forklift got rolled over would be interesting if it can be determined. I know that forklifts are relatively easy to roll-over. This [VERY HAZARDOUS] image is an excellent way to do just that (x2):

(IMG:http://www.cybersalt.org/images/funnypictures/f/forkliftsafety.jpg)
http://www.cybersalt.org/funny-pictures/forklift-work-safety

Forklifts, especially those used indoors, such as in warehouses, may give the impression of being giant toys, but they are far from it. Actually, even the smallest operator driven forklift is heavier than a mid-sized automobile. Their center of gravity is also located higher. Moreover, forklifts steer by rotating their rear axle, which is usually mounted on a pin. This enables forklifts to maneuver in restricted spaces. It also reduces the effective equilibrium base to a triangle thus making it easy to tip a forklift over. Therefore, unlike a car, a turn into a soft shoulder or driving off a curb can cause an overturn.

http://www.theforkliftcertification.com/ta...-safety-health/

However if the 4000 pound load was 66” wide, the load moment would be (33” X
4000 lb.) = 132,000 inch-pounds which would be greater than the moment of the
forklift. The forklift would tip forward.
As the load is raised, it becomes possible for the forklift to fall to the side as well
as tip forward. The operator must consider the center of gravity of the forklift and
load together. This combined center of gravity moves as the load is moved and
as the forklift travels over surfaces that are rough or inclined.

Forklifts have a “stability triangle”. The sides of the triangle
as shown in the illustration are formed by the center of
each front wheel and the center of the rear wheel or at the
center of the axle if there are two rear wheels. A vertical
line extending from the center of gravity of the vehicle-load
combination must be inside of the stability triangle to
prevent the forklift from tipping forward, falling sideways or
dropping its load.

From pages 14-15 of this PDF:
http://www2.illinoisbiz.biz/osha/PDF/Books...ng_Forklift.pdf

EDIT: So to review- we know with reasonable certainty that the Nissan forklift ran on propane (or possibly natural gas/methane) and apparently flipped over onto its left side in front/West of that tree, near the burned out (likely immobile) fire truck. It does not look to me like the propane tank exploded or caught fire...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...agon_rubble.jpg

[dMz]

So to review- we know with reasonable certainty that the Nissan forklift ran on propane (or possibly natural gas/methane) and apparently flipped over onto its left side in front/West of that tree, near the burned out (likely immobile) fire truck. It does not look to me like the propane tank exploded or caught fire...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...agon_rubble.jpg

Now looking at the burned-out shell of that vehicle in the foreground of the forklift photo- its right front fender looks similar to a Jeep Grand Cherokee to me, probably a late 1990s-2001 model:

1999 Jeep Grand Cherokee
http://autos.aol.com/cars-Jeep-Grand+Cherokee-1999/photos/

2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee
http://autos.aol.com/cars-Jeep-Grand+Cherokee-2000/photos/

2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee
http://autos.aol.com/cars-Jeep-Grand+Cherokee-2001/photos/

http://autos.aol.com/jeep-grand+cherokee/

Is that the same SUV body that was moved from the parking spot south of the white car to its current location in the forklift photo?

[kawika]

Now looking at the burned-out shell of that vehicle in the foreground of the forklift photo- its right front fender looks similar to a Jeep Grand Cherokee to me, probably a late 1990s-2001 model:

1999 Jeep Grand Cherokee
http://autos.aol.com/cars-Jeep-Grand+Cherokee-1999/photos/

2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee
http://autos.aol.com/cars-Jeep-Grand+Cherokee-2000/photos/

2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee
http://autos.aol.com/cars-Jeep-Grand+Cherokee-2001/photos/

http://autos.aol.com/jeep-grand+cherokee/

Is that the same SUV body that was moved from the parking spot south of the white car to its current location in the forklift photo?

I concur. Jeep moved away so shoring work could be done. Forklift, (yes, propane powered) I beleive, was tumbled and moved away, gathering up fence material along the way. Why they would have to do this is a question which we don't need to ask. We are getting away from the lawn debris thread, though I feel strongly the trailer on fire is significant to understanding what transpired. I am scouring the internet trying to find additional images of the trailer on fire before the collapse buried it.

We can clearly see lift cages containing welding bottles. Who knows, it may just be the paint on their outsides that is burning. They make dandy reference points.

[kawika]

Here is a swell collection of HI-RES photos.

http://bauer.imgur.com/pentagon#oOO3f



Found one of the forktruck, laying on its side as before, different location. Above left of the man putting on gloves.

http://bauer.imgur.com/pentagon/SbCqN#vxTrs


Chrymanee! Look how pristine the wire spools are. And lack of scorching of grass.

http://bauer.imgur.com/pentagon/SbCqN#CZ3hx


H-RES of the burnt out cars

http://bauer.imgur.com/pentagon/SbCqN#5INS1

[kawika]

Pretty good aerial photos of trailers from about 8/21/01.

http://911review.org/brad.com/pentagon_wall.html

Looks like there may have been three or four construction trailers right in the impact area.

[dMz]

THE CONSTRUCTION FENCE IS BLOWN AWAY FROM THE WALL.

If a plane went in there it would have grabbed the fence and dragged it inside the building. The wing would have clipped the two parked cars.

http://www.twf.org/Gallery/911f/Pentagon91...pact%20Zone.jpg

Going back to this- I have spent several decades driving trucks and riding motorcycles and ATV's across a 'river bottom' flood plain. The ice captures and relocates the fence wire and netting to random locations nearly every winter. The following spring/summer, these scattered wires are quite a hazard to your feet when riding cycles (and they often get caught on truck rear bumpers, leaf spring and shock absorber mounts, and trailers). Every time, the fence wires 'trail' behind the vehicle momentum vector like a comet's 'tail-' often catching on the footpegs of a motorcycle. (This is also observed to a milder degree with the cockle-burrs and other river bottom vegetation). One time, a loop of barbed wire pulled my right leg under the 3-wheel ATV rear tire and mildly tore my medial collateral ligament (MCL) in my right knee, so I remember that one very well.

After seeing these 'wire snags' dozens of times over the years and needing to cut many vehicles and trailers free, I can confirm that I would expect the chain-link fencing just outside the Pentagon to behave EXACTLY as kawika described above.

[onesliceshort]

Is that the same SUV body that was moved from the parking spot south of the white car to its current location in the forklift photo?

That's what I was trying to work out d.
It's the Cherokee going by the front fender, as you say.

http://www.dcmilitary.com/dcmilitary_archi...1/12049-1.shtml (military link)

Kidd was on her way out to her car when the plane hit. Luckily, Kidd stopped by the restroom before going to her car. "They got us," Kidd said her first thought was. "The lights went out and the ceiling fell in on me," she said. Kidd returned to the bottom of the tower and tried to get to Boger. The stairs were covered with debris and the ceiling had fallen in around him. "I don't know how I got out, but I got out," Boger said...
The first thing the two noticed was that both of their cars were on fire. Kidd was the owner of the infamous Grand Cherokee that ended up resembling a station wagon and Boger owned the totaled 3000 GT that was shown for weeks worldwide on news broadcasts.

They apparently belonged to the two heliport controllers, Sean Boger and Jacqueline Kidd.

[onesliceshort]

Ah! Nice catch (again) Kawika. There must be more that I've overlooked (I actually saw that image earlier today and didn't notice it)

http://i.imgur.com/vxTrs.jpg

(IMG:http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/8508/forklift.jpg)

So the question is, why were they trailing this heavy piece of machinery about like a rag doll when it looks in good nick and would have been easier to stand it upright??

And judging by the lack of scorchmarks/burning, was it there before or after the attack?

I concur. Jeep moved away so shoring work could be done. Forklift, (yes, propane powered) I beleive, was tumbled and moved away, gathering up fence material along the way. Why they would have to do this is a question which we don't need to ask. We are getting away from the lawn debris thread, though I feel strongly the trailer on fire is significant to understanding what transpired. I am scouring the internet trying to find additional images of the trailer on fire before the collapse buried it.

We can clearly see lift cages containing welding bottles. Who knows, it may just be the paint on their outsides that is burning. They make dandy reference points.

Sometimes there are more interesting and useful leads in what appears to be unimportant.
But yeah, I was going to start posting images of the trailer, spools (which are widely overlooked IMHO) and even the lay of the lawn itself to try and get an accurate picture of the obstacles before and after the explosion.

And of course, the "debris".

Thanks for the images mate!

[onesliceshort]

Ah! Nice catch (again) Kawika. There must be more that I've overlooked (I actually saw that image earlier today and didn't notice it)

Bingo!

http://criticalthrash.com/terror/P1010015.JPG

http://www.dodmedia.osd.mil/Assets/Still/2...D-02-03886.JPEG


(IMG:http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/1374/forklift2.png)

(IMG:http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/2159/forklift3w.png)

So it was directly in front of the alleged "impact hole". Knocked away from the facade. (And no scorchmarks? (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) )

How tall would this forklift stand when idle?

(I'll have to find another shot to find out how far from the facade it was)

ETA: I think this is a closer model:

http://www.purplewaveauction.com/i/a/2010/...ummins/5076.JPG

http://www.purplewave.com/cgi-bin/mnlist.cgi?100928A/5076

2001 Nissan 50 forklift
5142 hours on meter
Model CPJ02A25PV
Propane engine
187" max lift height
4,400 lbs capacity
8,460 lbs. base operating weight
Mast# N3F470

This post has been edited by onesliceshort: Mar 13 2011, 11:05 PM

[dMz]

Bingo!

http://criticalthrash.com/terror/P1010015.JPG

http://www.dodmedia.osd.mil/Assets/Still/2...D-02-03886.JPEG

I missed the marked images earlier, but I may as well post these cropped images since I already uploaded them (and it looks like we are in agreement on the flipped forklift location):

(IMG:http://flickcabin.com/pfiles/93194/ForkliftCrop_P1010015.jpg)
http://flickcabin.com/public/view/full/93194

(IMG:http://flickcabin.com/pfiles/93193/ForkliftCrop_DM-SD-02-03886.jpg)
http://flickcabin.com/public/view/full/93193

It is interesting that the fire hydrant and 4 yellow protective 'piling' posts are only visible in the Riskus "P1010015.jpg" photo...

How tall would this forklift stand when idle?

Looking at this page:

http://www.liftsrus.com/LiftSearch.php?LiftType=2

it looks like the common 'lowered mast heights' for the smaller forklifts range from 72 to 96 inches, so likely 6-8 feet.

[onesliceshort]

What are those "piling posts" for d? I'd never noticed them before.

it looks like the common 'lowered mast heights' for the smaller forklifts range from 72 to 96 inches, so likely 6-8 feet.

That "6-8 feet" measurement keeps cropping up (although I believe that the forklift was on a slightly lower elevation than the lawn). How could a 757 squeeeeze its way into the first floor "in a left tilt", cause the alleged damage to the right (trailer) and still clear an array of obstacles to the left at least 2 meters tall (not to mention the cars) and fully "penetrate" without buckling or divergence?

(IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/bs_flag.gif)

[dMz]

An image of the forktruck, standing up, and trailering the TITAN Firetruck.

http://old.911digitalarchive.org/crr/image...uments/3695.htm

(IMG:http://old.911digitalarchive.org/crr/images/CRRDB/data/documents/3695.jpg)

Title: FEMA Urban Search and Rescue (US&R) technical teams working on the crash site at the Pentagon.
Description: VA, September 12, 2001 -- FEMA Urban Search and Rescue (US&R) technical teams working on the crash site at the Pentagon. Photo by Jocelyn Augustino/ FEMA News Photo
Photographer: Augustino, Jocelyn

In this image, it looks to me like the Bobcat skid loader and Nissan forklift are just sitting idly by in the foreground of that photo. I'm not certain from the angle and that low-res photo, but it looks like the mast of the forklift might possibly be inoperably bent/damaged.

It appears to me that the yellow excavator nearby would be the thing to use to move the fire truck around (especially considering the weight of both pieces of equipment). Backhoes and excavators often have either a welded or bolted chain hook on the bucket for lifting & pulling purposes, like this:

http://www.rud.com/Filestore.aspx/VCGH-G%2...p;filetype=file

or this:

http://www.gunnebojohnson.com/gunnebo-clas...d-on-hooks-ukn/

I'm not sure if there is a chain or cable visible in that low-res photo, or if an electric winch might have been used (but that would be another way to load the burned-up firetruck on a trailer and many vehicle trailers are equipped with winches for this purpose):

http://www.racecarmagazine.com/ForSale/AdD...uler+w%2F+Winch

[dMz]

What are those "piling posts" for d? I'd never noticed them before.

I'd say to protect the fire hydrant from wayward helicopter rotors (since there was a helipad right there).

It's fairly common practice to place steel pipes around hydrants (and other things) for protection, then fill and mount the pipe(s) in several feet of concrete. I see this frequently in parking lots (car parks), loading docks, and around ATM machines at bank drive-throughs, for example. This is also done to restrict vehicle travel off of pedestrian-/bicycle-only areas in the US (although some 'off road' motorcycles would fit over & between many concrete/steel barriers the way they are located).

EDIT2: "Bollard" is the old British/nautical term for these concrete posts that is sometimes used.

EDIT: Wasn't it 'convenient' that fire hydrant was located exactly where Rumsfeld & Co. needed "AA77" to "crash" though? (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[BarryWilliamsmb]

Pretty good aerial photos of trailers from about 8/21/01.

http://911review.org/brad.com/pentagon_wall.html

Looks like there may have been three or four construction trailers right in the impact area.

This site has some clear photos of spools. Is this a normal look for such a thing? These spools are different from any I've ever seen and could easily be mistaken for jet engine parts at first and only glance.

[onesliceshort]

I'd say to protect the fire hydrant from wayward helicopter rotors (since there was a helipad right there).

It's fairly common practice to place steel pipes around hydrants (and other things) for protection, then fill and mount the pipe(s) in several feet of concrete. I see this frequently in parking lots (car parks), loading docks, and around ATM machines at bank drive-throughs, for example. This is also done to restrict vehicle travel off of pedestrian-/bicycle-only areas in the US (although some 'off road' motorcycles would fit over & between many concrete/steel barriers the way they are located).

Thanks d.

EDIT: Wasn't it 'convenient' that fire hydrant was located exactly where Rumsfeld & Co. needed "AA77" to "crash" though? (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

And that there was a foam truck right there on the lawn and that there was a "fire" at Reagan Airport carpark..

I'd always wondered if the facade was meant to immediately collapse or was meant to stand the way it did "for show".

I know there's been a lot said about firefighters doing next to nothing to extinguish the fire (the entire scene was weird for me personally) but to allow the cars and propane tanks burn? Firefighters usually put safety first yet allowed these possible explosions to be a risk and beside the source of the water!

The propane tanks actually did explode according to a DPS officer there.

http://www.defense.gov/news/NewsArticle.aspx?ID=708

When the fire department arrived, Rojas explained to them that he had been a fireman and asked if they wanted him to suit up. “I think they knew the building was getting ready to collapse, so they told us to get everybody back,” he said
A renovation project had recently been completed near the crash site, and numerous propane cylinders used for the project were still sitting in a fenced-in area, he said. When flames reached the tanks they began to explode. “These tanks were just shooting off up in the air. Poof! They were landing all over the place,” he said

I'll throw these two sourced unexplained (to date) quotes for good measure (from Creed and Newman's book "Firefight at the Pentagon"(?))

Arlington firefighter Bob Gray is introduced by his colleague Bobby Beer to a man wearing a hard hat. Beer introduces the man only as "Johnny," and adds, "He's our go-between with PenRen [the Pentagon Renovation Program], and he knows some of the military guys too." Although "Johnny" is not wearing any identifying badge or ID, he seems knowledgeable, appears "taut and serious, with a purposeful military stance," and even introduces Gray and Beer to a couple of friends of his who say they work for Special Forces. Johnny says if Gray and Beer need anything from the military, he can help. As a security perimeter has now been set up around the crash site, Gray assumes Johnny must be there officially. [Creed and Newman, 2008, pp. 367-368]

Sept 14

Johnny's disappearance appears to follow an error he had made after firefighters discovered two bodies inside the Pentagon's E Ring. Johnny mistakenly called the truck used to remove bodies to the temporary morgue prematurely, before FBI agents had the chance to photograph and document the remains. Gray and Beer start to wonder if Johnny in fact had no official standing, and was an impostor]

and..

Chad Stamps is a firefighter with Rescue 104 of the Arlington County Fire Department. [National Fire and Rescue, 5/2002] Along with his crew, he has been fighting fires on the second floor of the Pentagon's outer E Ring. With fires burning around him, he is astonished to see another crew walk past, carrying two packs of hose line, apparently on its way to fight fires elsewhere in the Pentagon. Describing this incident, authors Patrick Creed and Rick Newman will point out: "Firefighters are trained never to go through a fire without putting it out, since it might seal off your exit. You might as well walk into a burning room and lock the door behind you. Yet there they went." Seeing the crew passing by, Stamps thinks, "This is totally disjointed." [Creed and Newman, 2008, pp. 137] The odd behavior of this crew is perhaps notable because there is at least one reported incident of fake firefighters being caught at the Pentagon following the attack there: On September 12, three people will be arrested who are not firefighters, yet who are dressed in firefighting gear (see September 12, 2001). [Goldberg et al., 2007, pp. 170]]

(IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

[onesliceshort]

Now for the spools and trailer...

(IMG:http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/5807/spool1marked.jpg)

EDIT: The below image's details:

EXIF DATA

View of the west-facing wall of the Pentagon on the late afternoon of Sept. 12, 2001. Approximately 30 hours earlier, hijacked American Airlines Flight 77, a Boeing 757 with 64 passengers aboard was purposely crashed into this spot in an act of terrorism.

@16:00 12 September

DoD photo by R. D. Ward.

http://i.imgur.com/CZ3hx.jpg

They are over 2m high.


I found this 750kw diesel generator (circa 2001) and a container, though not the same one at the Pentagon, the dimensions to house a 750kw generator are roughly the same.

http://www.hardydiesel.com/used-diesel-gen.../CCAJ00142.html

http://i53.tinypic.com/fef23r.jpg

http://i52.tinypic.com/241j982.jpg

The container is 30' (10m) long but I've still to find the exact height and weight etc.

I've sent e-mails to the company (if still in existence) asking for details but it won't accept my enquiry (because I'm in Europe? (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/dunno.gif) )
I really want to find out what safety features it has too in case of "accident", fuel fire, collision, etc.

If anybody's interested..800 341 7027 or 619 669 1995 (Company's phone number)

This post has been edited by onesliceshort: Mar 22 2011, 11:26 PM

[dMz]

I'll throw these two sourced unexplained (to date) quotes for good measure (from Creed and Newman's book "Firefight at the Pentagon"(?))

Just to clarify- that is the same Firefight written by US Army Major Patrick Creed of the US Special Operations Command then?

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10748069
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10747614
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10747783

Why does that make me think of this:

Revealed: Air Force Ordered Software To Manage Army Of Fake Virtual People
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=21115

and these?

Military Report: Secretly 'recruit Or Hire Bloggers'
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=11687

Covert Operations And The Repression Of Political Dissent
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=11529

EDIT: and this:

Another Runaway General: Army Deploys Psy-ops On U.S. Senators, Rolling Stone - 2/23/11
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=21129

and this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological...nited_States%29

The United States Army Special Forces, also known as the Green Berets because of their distinctive service headgear, are a special operations force of the United States Army tasked with six primary missions: unconventional warfare, foreign internal defense, special reconnaissance, direct action, hostage rescue, and counter-terrorism. The first two emphasize language, cultural, and training skills in working with foreign troops. Other duties include combat search and rescue (CSAR), security assistance, peacekeeping, humanitarian assistance, humanitarian demining, counter-proliferation, psychological operations, manhunts, and counter-drug operations; other components of the United States Special Operations Command or other U.S. government activities may also specialize in these secondary areas.[2] Many of their operational techniques are classified, but some nonfiction works[3] and doctrinal manuals are available.[4][5][6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Force..._States_Army%29

[onesliceshort]

(IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

I had always believed this guy Creed was an officer in the Fire Brigade...I've some reading up to do.
Creed was the source for the "0.8 second penetration" claim too.

[SwingDangler]

Sir, if you could do the time line events using those helipad pictures and displaying how the debris field 'evolved' over time, I would certainly appreciate it as part of a lesson plane. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/handsdown.gif)