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Pilots For 9/11 Truth Forum _ Religion _ On Zionism

Posted by: Sanders Jan 6 2009, 04:54 PM

Israel is engaged in, what I consider, genocide in slow motion in the Gaza Strip. They just want to be rid of the Palestinians - however.

The US government has been practically overtaken by Zionists or politicians sympathetic to the Zionist cause. Many of our "leaders" hold dual-citizenship. It appears that support of the Israeli-Zionist cause is a pre-condition for electablity. After a couple of decades of hard work, that's how much influence Israel now wields.

The US media is, at the top, for the most part, run by Zionists. The illusion of a "free-press" is barely sustained - don't expect any fair or balanced news from the media.

The banking cartel that runs the world is not Jewish - it is half Jewish. The Jewish part, the Rothschilds and the Warburgs, are based in England and Europe. The American half of the equation is far more convoluted ... the Rothschilds and the Warburgs have held on to their stock privately - the Rockefeller and Morgan (gentile) banks in the US though (JP MorganChase, Citibank) are publicly owned, so without a torturous exploration into the stockholding companies of those banks, it is impossible to say how "Jewish" they are or aren't.

I continue to hold that it is more about money and less about religion ... and that Israel's influence over the US government is Israeli-driven. It may be partially banker-driven as well, I don't know, but, since I doubt that the banking families involved give a flying-hoot about the Jewish "cause", I assume their motivations are more material. If those motivations are deeper (more religious) in nature, then they are interested in the WHOLE REGION - from Gaza to Basra - for that is the ancient home of (as they perceive?) themselves and civilization itself.

I'm going to jump around - don't expect any rhyme or reason - there is none.

The Rothschilds resisted backing the Zionist movement at it's inception. As the first world war was raging Baron Rothschild suggested to Theodor Hertzel (founder of the Zionist movement) that he (Herzel) found his proposed Jewish state in Uganda. (!) They (the Rothschild family) were initially not very interested, Hertzel's ideas sounded "too jewish" to the Rothshilds - that's a quote. ... but they finally came around.

Edmund Rothschild was the first to create settlements in Palestine, they were wine-making settlements, he was from the French House - winemakers. He (Edmund) fought to keep Hertzl's power in Palestine in check until his death. There were a couple of other motivating factors at work that drew the Rothschilds into Palestine, one was the mineral riches present in the Dead Sea - 3 TRILLION worth of magnesium and other metals.

The Balfour Declaration did in fact promise a chunk of land to the Zionist movement THROUGH Lionel Rothschild, via a letter from Author Balfour, the British Foreign Secretary, in 1917. There is a good reason why this letter was addressed to Lionel Rothshild, the Turks (Ottoman Empire) who lost WWI, were heavily indebted to the Rothschilds.

The Rothschilds, like most European Jews, are descended from Khazars - which was a huge empire which peaked a thousand years ago in the steppes north of the Caspian and Black seas. Many will tell you that these Jews have no blood-connection to Palestine.

However, the northern tribes were allegedly carted off into northern Mesopotamia (now Syria), and most likely, given the strife that was going on at the time in that area, probably migrated north, through the Caucasus into the lands which would become Khazaria - which would help explain why the Empire of Khazaria converted en-mass to Judaeism.

So, the argument that European Jews have no connection to Israel because they are Khazars, doesn't really hold water if you dig into the history.

Then again, the Bible tended to exaggerate - there were never that many Jews in Palestine. And furthermore, the Palestinians (Philistines) were/are Semites - descended from Shem ... the Khazar Jews are mostly (by blood percentage) descended from Japeth, being of the Black Sea - Caspian Sea region - there had to be some mixing of blood over those hundreds of years ... so, anti-Jewish speech should really be labeled 'anti-Japethism' - no? But all of us European-American rooted people are, as per the Bible, Japithites too, so aren't we all the same?

When you hear the word "anti-semite" spewed, know that the Palestinians are more correctly "Semites" than European based Jews. With the above moderating factors.

So to summarize, up is down, Bush's grandfather helped finance Hitler, practically everything we have been told is "spin", the Palestinians are correctly Semites, the Jews are more correctly Japethites, the Rothschilds resisted supporting Hertzel and his Zionist movement, half of the banking families who "rule the world" are not Jewish, hence, the argument that it's all a "Jewish plot" leaves much to be desired.

It's so funny to me. (Funny, but tragically serious.) People seem to have a hard time separating Judaeism from Zionism. I'm trying to look behind Zionism - to the root of where the line between Judaeism and Zionism is intentionally blurred.

Do you not see how complicated this all is, and how many interpretations are possible?

Only one thing is for certain - Israel wields undue and excessive influence in the US government. But we deserve it - as Jefferson said, the price of libery is eternal vigilance. America has not been vigilant.

So, we have have a government and a media beside it bought and paid for by Israel, who receives all that cash back in foreign aid.

"Good work if you can get it".

Behold the fruits of your unwakefulness, America, children with their arms blown off in Gaza, a million civilians dead in Iraq - and who knows what horrors the use of depleted uranium in Iraq, or DIME weapons in Gaza, will result in.

I just don't know what to say anymore.

Posted by: dMole Jan 6 2009, 04:58 PM

Fuckin' A, Sanders!
handsdown.gif

Posted by: Oceans Flow Jan 6 2009, 06:26 PM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jan 6 2009, 12:54 PM) *
The American half of the equation is far more convoluted ...

Brilliant post, Sanders. Have you ever tried to figure out what religion the Rockefellers adhere to? I spent a couple of hours researching it and I only found that the senator from West Virginia attends a Southern Baptist church. I was able to discover no other information!

(Of course the conspiracy crowd says that they are Luciferians.)

Posted by: Sue Jan 6 2009, 06:59 PM

Many Jews (particularly the Hassidic ones) are against Zionism:

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

The Zionists would like that the world did not know this.

Sue

Posted by: Sanders Jan 6 2009, 10:56 PM

QUOTE (Oceans Flow @ Jan 10 2009, 05:26 PM) *
...Have you ever tried to figure out what religion the Rockefellers adhere to? I spent a couple of hours researching it and I only found that the senator from West Virginia attends a Southern Baptist church. I was able to discover no other information!

(Of course the conspiracy crowd says that they are Luciferians.)


J.D. Rockefeller was a very pious Baptist. As for the family on the whole in recent times, I have no idea. The origin of the Rockefeller name is German or maybe French (if French, the region in question is Lanquedoc). I don't think it is relevant where the family is originally from, J.D. was a self-made man (with the help of capital arranged by Jacob Schiff).

The family's status as a truly wealthy family is relatively recent (a little over a century). If any of them dabble in ancient mysticism, they would have been introduced to it, but there's no evidence for it.

There is only one Rockefeller that I know of who was a member of Skull and Bones - Percy A. From what I've read about the Rockefellers, they just don't seem the type to invest in spooky stuff. S&B, Yale, and the intelligence community btw lean decidedly Episcopalian.

Posted by: painter Jan 6 2009, 11:45 PM

Good work, sanders.

Posted by: Quest Jan 7 2009, 12:19 AM

Good stuff Sanders but there is indeed a "mystical philosophy" that binds the elite and that would be Freemasonry. This is the tie that binds disparate religions to form a common cause, one world government rule by the wealthy elite.

The Masonic New World Order
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/masonic_nwo.htm



PICTURES: ISRAELI whole capital is occult Masonic shrine, like Wash DC




http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/09/297062.shtml

QUOTE
ISRAEL WAS NOT FOUNDED AS A JEWISH STATE, IT'S FOUNDED AS OCCULT STATE (like the U.S.): This report will shock and upset some; it is one I have put off for over 4 years. After struggling with it I have decided now is the time to write it. Knowing it could be misunderstood as anti-Semitic. God forbid that I a Jew should ever say or do anything that would be remotely considered as such, but I must admit this report does not come easy for me. The fact still remains that an evil force has been put into place in Jerusalem and has spread throughout Israel,...This report will prove that such a move is underway and has been for quiet some time......the architectural design of the New Israeli Supreme Court Building designed and paid for by Rothchilds reflects instead only the presence of Free Masonry & Illuminati architecturally. The Engineers who were chosen for this job by the Rothschilds were grandson & granddaughter of Ben-Zion Guine from Turkey who worked for Baron Rothschild, Ram Kurmi, born in Jerusalem in 1931, and Ada Karmi-Melanede born in Tel-Aviv in 1936. For those who can make something out of the numbers: important to builders to have everything done according to correct numbers: were 1,000 sheets of plans, 1,200 cement posts; worked on building for 3 years or 750 days; 20 workers each day, for 200,000 workdays; 250,000 building stones, each hand placed. Rothschilds made many stipulations with Israeli Government before the building began, among them: Rothschilds would pick the plot of land to align & build Supreme Court; Rothschilds would use their own architects; & no one would ever know how much the building cost. It took four years to build a structure with many secrets built into it. This is where our journey begins as we begin to enter into the building, for this entire journey is intended to bring one from darkness into the light, become an Illuminated one, destroy Christianity and Islam through trampling/mocking their symbols, introduce Hindu, Far Eastern, & Egyptian symbolism, & be a daily reminder of occult power in Israel for those in the know as they move Jews and Muslims like chess pawns against each other, toward a designed Middle Eastern WWIII.


Personally, I see the Freemasons as making most of the decisions and I think when you look at the top of the Freemson hierarchy you will find they are mostly Zionist and Kabalah. Freemasonry is what makes up much of the UK's judicial system as well as the USA's. Freemasony is the link that binds the Vatican and Zionists. Also, it was Masons Earl Warren, Gerald Ford and Arlene Specter that covered up JFK's assasination and it was Fremasons that 'landed' on the moon.

NASA & ILLUMINATI CONNECTION Part.5(Masonic Moon)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV6z3in6R7E

Hexagram in Satanism and Freemasonry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciPw1iWfUNA

The Kabalah and Freemasonry
http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/kabbalah.html

Masons Illuminati and the Roman Church
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvpg5V63gBY

Posted by: tumetuestumefaisdubien Jan 7 2009, 09:02 AM

QUOTE
Barack Obama:
"America's First Jewish President"

by James Petras

According to a nationally prominent Zionist spokesperson, former Congressman, Federal Judge, White House Counsel to President Bill Clinton and early backer of Obama, Abner Mikvner, "Barack Obama is the first Jewish President". Mikvner's affirmation reflects both Obama's one-sided and longstanding commitment to the State of Israel and loyalty to the Zionist Power Configuration (ZPC) in the United States, as well as the long-term and successful effort of a network of financially and politically powerful Jewish Zionists to 'embed' Obama to their 'Israel First' political apparatus...

full article http://www.voltairenet.org/article158792.html
B.O. intimately reminds me about another zionist/CIA asset - french president Sarkozy:
Sarkozy accused of working for Israeli intelligence:
by Gamal Nkrumah
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7245
Operation Sarkozy : how the CIA placed one of its agents at the presidency of the French Republic
by Thierry Meyssan
http://www.voltairenet.org/article157821.html
...the zionist empire grows...

Posted by: dMole Jan 7 2009, 12:55 PM

QUOTE (tumetuestumefaisdubien @ Jan 7 2009, 06:02 AM) *
B.O. intimately reminds me about another zionist/CIA asset - french president Sarkozy:

Hi tume,

The late "judge buster" Sherman Skolnick wrote in one of his books that Barack Obama is a British Intelligence agent via the Kenya avenue. There was an interesting story about Barack being detained in Moscow by the "new and improved" KGB-equivalent several years ago.

I seem to recall this information being posted on the cloakanddagger.de website a long time ago.

I think this is the book, but Skolnick wasn't always great with sources.

http://www.amazon.com/Overthrow-American-Republic-Writings-Skolnick/dp/1893302229

Skolnick on Obama "Right Hand Man" Rahm Emanuel:

http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data/government/new_world_order/news.php?q=1226347501
------------------
EDIT: More on the Barack Obama thing:

http://imaginativeworlds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11330

http://www.bellona.no/bellona.org/english_import_area/international/russia/nuke_industry/co-operation/39511

[28 Aug 2005 detention by Putin]
http://www.cloakanddagger.de/home%20page%20items/CLOAK%20STATE%20SECRETS%20TWO.htm

Posted by: Carl Bank Jan 7 2009, 10:15 PM

Once in a while it is quite enlightening to compare the current (and obvious next future) situations
on this planet with the 'Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion', the blueprint for the NWO.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?showtopic=2655&view=findpost&p=6860456

This document is about 150 years old. And it gets scarier every day, with every news I read.


just for the protocol: Carl

Posted by: dMole Jan 7 2009, 10:46 PM

I don't understand why so many people automatically assume Zionists are of the Jewish faith. Why do we so rarely hear about the Christian, Protestant, [Luciferian like Albert Pike], etc. Zionists?

http://www.christianzionism.org/

Posted by: Carl Bank Jan 8 2009, 10:12 AM

QUOTE (dMole @ Jan 8 2009, 04:46 AM) *
I don't understand why so many people automatically assume Zionists are of the Jewish faith.


I don't know. but it is possible, that these 'Protocols' were simply altered to
blame the Jews (at least, this doc is very old and started as a french satire).
I for one don't see the Jews behind the Zionism. All religeons are created to control
the masses and to ease the shepards work on the sheople.

But the things that are predicted and the changes that are called for in this doc
all happened and happen. This is why it is so damn important to have at least pnce read this stuff.


imo


not Lunk, but: Carl

Posted by: p.w.rapp Jan 8 2009, 11:47 AM

QUOTE (Carl Bank @ Jan 8 2009, 03:12 PM) *
I for one don't see the Jews behind the Zionism.


Really??? blink.gif

Not a bit ???


You probably meant:

"I for one don't see only Jews behind Zionism."

I'd 100% agree to that! See my sig.




*edit to add* ...and I know many Jews, who emphetically oppose Zionism.
We're currently in contact with an anti-zionist Israeli citizen on another forum and try to get him to post his opinion on the Gaza desaster.

Posted by: Carl Bank Jan 8 2009, 03:52 PM

The emphasis was on THE Jews, of course. Wich also means: Zionism isn't the agenda
of a religeouse group. The myth of religion is USED by the Zionists (and all PTB) to
get the people in line in order to fulfill their agenda. Being a Jew is -like being a christian
or a cathlic- a label for being mind-remote-controlled by our 'shepards'.

So, if you want to put it that way, yes: "I for one don't see only Jews behind Zionism."

But on the other hand, I for one also don't see only blondes, smokers, vegetarians, left-handers,
soccer moms, Astronomists, bus drivers, bachelors, eBAY-members and golfers
behind Zionism.

Just Zionists.


only bad staff can make bad stuff, says: Carl



QUOTE (p.w.rapp @ Jan 8 2009, 05:47 PM) *
Really??? blink.gif

Not a bit ???


You probably meant:

"I for one don't see only Jews behind Zionism."

I'd 100% agree to that! See my sig.




*edit to add* ...and I know many Jews, who emphetically oppose Zionism.
We're currently in contact with an anti-zionist Israeli citizen on another forum and try to get him to post his opinion on the Gaza desaster.

Posted by: Sanders Jan 8 2009, 11:42 PM

QUOTE (Quest @ Jan 10 2009, 11:19 PM) *
Good stuff Sanders but there is indeed a "mystical philosophy" that binds the elite


Yes, I agree - that's what my whole "dragon thread" attempts to sort out. It's a long read, but a much clearer picture emerges once one is aware of a particular world history which is not taught.

Allow me to elaborate, because this relates to "Zionism" on a deep level, IMO.
What blew me away and made all of that reading and posting (related to the "dragon-bloodline") worthwhile to me, was the realization that there were two distinct branches of a percieved bloodline of the ruling class, one of which passed through Egypt, the other through the Black Sea region. The former spread from Egypt into Greece and the Levant (Palestine), the later pooled around the Black Sea (the writer from whom I absorbed a lot of info calls this the "Gogi" branch, "Gogi" derives from the word "Gog" as does the name of the Caucasus country of Georgia). The Gogi branch spread north from the Caucasus, Balkans and Scythia (Scythia would later become Khazaria) and gave rise to the barbarian tribes including the Franks who were very important of course, probably the Huns too, and, the Vikings. These two (Egyptian and Gogi) branches met from time to time in history, either in battle or in marriage, and the results were always world-changing. The battle of Troy IMO being a good example of the former, the emmigration to France of Rabbi Makhir and his marriage to a Carolingian princess (Alda) an example of the later. Makhir's Frankish name was Theodoric, and his blood flowed into the noble families of France. Charlemagne actually SENT for Makhir, requesting "seed" of the Davidic line - which means, and this is my interpretation but I believe reasonable, that the most powerful French king in history at the peak of the Frankish empire specifically requested royal-Jewish stock (of the "Egyptian" dragon line - if you allow me to categorize it that way), in order to replentish the bloodline of Frankish nobles ... again, this is my interpretation, but one which is supported by all the knowable facts.

Surely Charlemagne was not really a link in a chain of rulers that traced back to Sumer - but did he believe so, and did he understand that the Davidic kings represented a separate branch of the same royal lineage? Or, was there enough awareness of these things I'm speaking of among elite circles at least that he believed that linking up to the Davidic line would give the Carolingians much needed authenticity as rulers? Remember, Charlemagne was one of the first Carolingians, who were related to their predecessors the Merovingians by a mere thread. There has to be SOME reason why Charlemagne did this - he showered titles and land on Makhir and his family, and there was hardly a Noble family in western Europe from that point forward who cannot trace their ancestry back to Makhir. Obviously, the royal kings of the house of Israel were afforded a certain importance - which finally makes sense in light of the Egyptian and Gogi branches I mentioned. (The authors of the Greek Myths certainly knew about these ancestral branches, for once unlocked those legends describe the history and significance of them up until that period in detail - the most startling example is the staff of Hermes, found on the door of any doctor's office - with two snakes intertwined! ... and if elite Greek society understood this, it's not such a stretch to imagine Charlemagne did too. His motivation had to be something along these lines, there just is no other explanation.)

Fast forward a bit and you get the Viking invasion, a treaty and a marriage (between Rollo the Viking and Poppa of Bavaria) binding various lines (Viking, Hun, Frank & Davidic), another invasion a few generations later by the descendents and allies of these people - this time taking over England, and then the Crusades a few decades after that (much can be inferred IMO by this attempt to reclaim the Holy Land so soon after these various branches were joined).

So what does any of this have to do with Zionism??? First of all, the use of the word Zionism is sort of redundant IMO, it's just imperialism, of the same flavor as that which prompted Europeans to conquer America, killing off the natives in the process. Ever heard the term "Manifest Destiny"? The right of the new American culture to take control of the whole land from the Atlantic to the Pacific became almost religious in nature. It was our "destiny". The policy Israel has been pushing is no different, not a bit. Zionism only differs from run-of-the-mill Imperialism only for it's Jewish flavor, interestingly despite the fact that non-Jewish Zionists in the world (i.e. Christians who support Israeli imperialist policies, often for fanciful religious reasons) FAR outnumber Zionists of the Jewish faith, and are often the most extreme in their views.

But let's get back to the historical basis for this non-Jewish empathy for the Zionist cause - NOT the visible one, but the real one that we are not supposed to know. The Templars weren't just crusaders, they were BANKERS, and were more powerful than kings and queens. They represented a blending of elite Gogi and Egyptian lines (set aside the issue of how well the Templars themselves understood this at the time for a moment), and after their persecution, fled to the recesses of Masonry (if they themselves didn't create Freemasonry), from where they continued to vie for power - both political and financial. If you believe, like me, that while people live and die, the architecture of power, like culture, continues unabated across the generations, and that there is a separate culture of the world's elite complete with a history kept from the rest of us, then the roots of our elite lie in part with the Templars (and others like them), and they in turn manifested a blending of the Gogi and the Egyptian, the Christian and the Jewish (more specifically, Khabbala). These all had some common roots, thoroughly clouded by the manipulative edicts and disinformation attached to the two religions proper. I'll bet you an accomplished 33rd degree mason could tell you alot more about it that I can ... and that's the point.

And the proof is, those Masonic symbols which grace the Israeli Supreme Court building Quest posted.

The world is and always has been run by Imperialists - powerful people patiently amassing more power, more possessions. Jewish supporters of imperialism (zionism) buy into the Jewish homeland rational just as American pioneers and investors believed in Manifest Destiny and pushed west over the continent - no less or no more rightfully. The people pushing the cover story would be just as happy with a different rational, anything that works. It just so happens that religious overtones go a long way toward motivating one people to kill another. Meanwhile, Palestinians have as much of a clue as to why they are being persecuted as the American Indian did. And, naked imperialism is alive and well in America too ... just ask any Iraqi.

2 cents

(P.S. I didn't intend to write a history lesson when I started typing, forgive me for going on, and please take it with a grain of salt - if nothing else it offers a basis for thinking about things a little differently.)

..........................

EDIT: As per the Sefer ha-Qabbalah written about 1161 by a Spanish Historian, "king Charles" made the request for "seed" of the House of David. There was no "King Charles", except for Charles "the Hammer", who was dead by then. It could only be Charloman, who wasn't a king, or his brother Charlemagne. As far as I can tell, it was Charlemagne who sent for Makhir - but it doesn't really matter, it was someone in this family and Charlemagne showered titles and land on Makhir, making him and his descendents the rulers of Narbonne (Laguedoc).

Posted by: p.w.rapp Jan 9 2009, 02:15 AM

Thank you Sanders!
Empressive early morning 'history lesson' for me.
Couldn't stop reading!



@Carl

QUOTE
Zionism isn't the agenda
of a religeouse group. The myth of religion is USED by the Zionists (and all PTB) to
get the people in line in order to fulfill their agenda. Being a Jew is -like being a christian
or a catholic- a label for being mind-remote-controlled by our 'shepards'.


Agreed.

The only thing is -
I'm having problems digesting the comparison of Jewish versus christian or catholic sheep (let alone Islamic sheep).
If the sheep had our state of information, they would know, which herd is the chosen one...




P.S.: Interesting, how the German post war generation unwittingly sets the capital letters. - Knowing you, Carl, I guess that was done on purpose;)

Posted by: dMole Jan 9 2009, 02:27 AM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jan 6 2009, 01:54 PM) *
So, the argument that European Jews have no connection to Israel because they are Khazars, doesn't really hold water if you dig into the history.

Then again, the Bible tended to exaggerate - there were never that many Jews in Palestine. And furthermore, the Palestinians (Philistines) were/are Semites - descended from Shem ... the Khazar Jews are mostly (by blood percentage) descended from Japeth, being of the Black Sea - Caspian Sea region - there had to be some mixing of blood over those hundreds of years ... so, anti-Jewish speech should really be labeled 'anti-Japethism' - no? But all of us European-American rooted people are, as per the Bible, Japithites too, so aren't we all the same?

When you hear the word "anti-semite" spewed, know that the Palestinians are more correctly "Semites" than European based Jews. With the above moderating factors.

So to summarize, up is down, Bush's grandfather helped finance Hitler, practically everything we have been told is "spin", the Palestinians are correctly Semites, the Jews are more correctly Japethites, the Rothschilds resisted supporting Hertzel and his Zionist movement, half of the banking families who "rule the world" are not Jewish, hence, the argument that it's all a "Jewish plot" leaves much to be desired.

From a now-closed thread in Debate where I repeatedly asked for and tried to point out to an ardent Zionist the definition(s) of "Semitic",

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Semitic

Seキmitキic (s-mtk)
adj.
1. Of or relating to the Semites or their languages or cultures.
2. Of, relating to, or constituting a subgroup of the Afro-Asiatic language group that includes Arabic, Hebrew, Amharic, and Aramaic.
n.
1. The Semitic languages.
2. Any one of the Semitic languages.
[New Latin Smiticus, from Smita, Semite, from Late Latin Sm, Shem, eponymous ancestor of the Semites, from Greek, from Hebrew m.]

Posted by: dMole Jan 9 2009, 02:47 AM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jan 8 2009, 08:42 PM) *
What blew me away and made all of that reading and posting (related to the "dragon-bloodline") worthwhile to me, was the realization that there were two distinct branches of a percieved bloodline of the ruling class, one of which passed through Egypt, the other through the Black Sea region. The former spread from Egypt into Greece and the Levant (Palestine), the later pooled around the Black Sea (the writer from whom I absorbed a lot of info calls this the "Gogi" branch, "Gogi" derives from the word "Gog" as does the name of the Caucasus country of Georgia). The Gogi branch spread north from the Caucasus, Balkans and Scythia (Scythia would later become Khazaria) and gave rise to the barbarian tribes including the Franks who were very important of course, probably the Huns too, and, the Vikings. These two (Egyptian and Gogi) branches met from time to time in history, either in battle or in marriage, and the results were always world-changing. The battle of Troy IMO being a good example of the former, the emmigration to France of Rabbi Makhir and his marriage to a Carolingian princess (Alda) an example of the later.
...
(P.S. I didn't intend to write a history lesson when I started typing, forgive me for going on, and please take it with a grain of salt - if nothing else it offers a basis for thinking about things a little differently.)

My sources have the very early portion of that slightly differently with your pagan "seafarers" splitting off pre-Babylon (and subsequently Egypt) when the Phoenicians left Sumeria. Sources that far back into "history" tend to be legends, Zecharia Stichin (and a couple of other controversial authors), and occultism, though.

Of course the same "grain of salt" applies, but it might be "sea salt" in this case. wink.gif

Sanders and I discussed this here a while back:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?s=&showtopic=2655&view=findpost&p=10759763

I think that Sanders' "Dragon Line" thread ended up in research [yup & wow! 7355 views]

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?showtopic=13644

Posted by: tumetuestumefaisdubien Jan 9 2009, 10:09 AM

QUOTE (dMole @ Jan 6 2009, 01:46 AM) *
I don't understand why so many people automatically assume Zionists are of the Jewish faith. Why do we so rarely hear about the Christian, Protestant, [Luciferian like Albert Pike], etc. Zionists?
http://www.christianzionism.org/

Hi dMole,

Yes, we should not forget them. The christian zionists are the key, not primarily the jews. Christian zionists are very dangerous rapturist fanatics with roots in masonism hijacking protestant christian churches, fundamentalists, who believe in that occult stuff derived with the out of context misinterpretations of the biblical texts into a mess of false (or selfulfilling) prophecies based in the old covenant. (It's interesting that this people who believe in this occult stuff almost never are catholics (although many are blaming it just to them) - basically it is theologically anti-catholic, because the ultimate goal is to remove the church and restore the Israel - for to pave the way to fulfill the prophecies of the old testament and of the second comming of the Christ, sometimes even second and third - beliefs, which is by major core of catholics considered being a straightforward heresy, because in scriptures is 1. nothing about the comming of the Christ before the end of times 2. absolutely nothing about restoration of Israel as the condition for the Christs comming 3. nothing about the mass conversion of the jews and 4. nothing abot a secret rapture. A "catholic zionist" is basically a contradicio in adjecto and although one would expect also the infiltration of the catholic church - its hierarchy is quite a immune system maintained with the unchangeable alogical dogmas, and to me it looks that the anti-zionism in catholic church looks to be on the increase than it would be on a way to embrace a zionism.)
In case of jews we still can see a kind of consistency in their morals, although they are the old morals of work, not morals of grace, but christian zionists are complete mess-ianistic heretics. (No, I'm not a catholic - I judge so just from apparent and fundamental inner inconsistency of their belliefs, from what I learned about.) This people are fanatics believing they can envisage end of the times, moreover believing they can pave a way to the judgment day, believing, they can secure their redemption from their sins not folowing the Jesus comandments and teachings or even lying about them, moreover offering this way of salvation to the jews - repromising them their Canaan. Ineptitude. But not just that, I personaly see in this being the hidden luciferianism - to paraphrase it - a hidden snake bringing the apple of eternal sin in form of the light of the prometheus. Ineptitude - a man can't steal the divine light - especially not if he pretends a christian belief - whose system principially denies it. I think this christian zionism is even more dangerous than the jewish zionism - which could be at least on the surface justified by a self-determination.

sorry for the rant, this fanatics fool so many people, especially in US... rolleyes.gif

Posted by: dMole Jan 9 2009, 02:58 PM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jan 8 2009, 08:42 PM) *
If you believe, like me, that while people live and die, the architecture of power, like culture, continues unabated across the generations, and that there is a separate culture of the world's elite complete with a history kept from the rest of us, then the roots of our elite lie in part with the Templars (and others like them), and they in turn manifested a blending of the Gogi and the Egyptian, the Christian and the Jewish (more specifically, Khabbala). These all had some common roots, thoroughly clouded by the manipulative edicts and disinformation attached to the two religions proper. I'll bet you an accomplished 33rd degree mason could tell you alot more about it that I can ... and that's the point.

And the proof is, those Masonic symbols which grace the Israeli Supreme Court building Quest posted.

I'll bet you he couldn't, wouldn't, AND won't. ohmy.gif There are several "rites" above that business, but the "Scottish" 30th is where TheyTM start to get really "serious," in the US at least.

What's up with all those Cheney/Shriners rumors BTW?

Posted by: Sanders Jan 9 2009, 08:14 PM

QUOTE (dMole @ Jan 13 2009, 01:47 AM) *
My sources have the very early portion of that slightly differently with your pagan "seafarers" splitting off pre-Babylon (and subsequently Egypt) when the Phoenicians left Sumeria. Sources that far back into "history" tend to be legends, Zecharia Stichin (and a couple of other controversial authors), and occultism, though.

Of course the same "grain of salt" applies, but it might be "sea salt" in this case. wink.gif



Very good pun laugh.gif . I don't often giggle and smile just over a pun like that.

In describing generally the two main branches, I didn't really address Phoenicia - you're right to catch that, Phoenicia is sort of a special case. It's pretty obvious when one looks at a map - if you travel upward from Sumer toward the Caucasus and hang a left, you are in Phoenicia - it would have been logical that culture spread from Sumer to there directly, and also there are some similarities between the deities the Phoenicians and the Sumerians worshipped, particularly if you also compare that of the Akkadians - Akkad lie in between. I think I'm right in noting that the Akkadians worshipped Bel, which was Baal in Phoenicia. Very very interesting by the way, (I mention this in my Dragon thread), I stumbled on to a Sumerian language web-site, and the guy who runs it posted in a FAQ that "Bel" in Akkadian is synonymous with "Dan" in Sumerian. He noted that "Dan" meant a unit of measure, however "Bel" (or Baal in Phoenician) meant "Lord" - quite interesting when thought of in light of the Tribe of Dan and the Tuatha de Danaan.

Then there is Mt. Hermon (from where Hermes allegedly derives) which was described as the gate through which angels fell (and mated with the daughters of men), the place is in Phoenicia, while the myth is originally Sumerian I believe (this is all from memory, someone correct me if I'm off a bit). However, Greek myth describes Cadmus and Phoenix migrating to Phoenicia from Egypt. I think both interpretations are probably true, it seems clear to me that Phoenicia gained its status from being a trading partner between Sumer and Egypt, and was influenced by both (to the extent that the three didn't simply evolve together?).

tumetuestumefaisdubien, great post IMO. Deep stuff. I'll only add that the infiltration of the Catholic Church likely began at the time of the Templars - with Innocent II, who was promoted to the position of Pope by a big supporter of the Templar order, Bernard Clairvaux. For a long time I envisioned the Templar knights and the Church as being ideologically at odds and couldn't understand how they came to be the pope's militia - then I discovered that Pope Innocent II was the Templar knights' own man on the inside.

Posted by: Timothy Osman Jan 10 2009, 08:05 AM

IMO Zionism had nothing to do with religion apart from the fact that Judaism has been has been used as the basis and foundation of a nation by a movement/cult of Europeans. The corruption of the faith followed with its glazed eyed zealots ready willing and believing any BS they were fed, just like any other religiously manipulated people.
The fact is that the British made a total cluster f*ck of the middle East in every single line they drew on a map, their Empire's end has given the world some great hangovers precisely because they never let go, because they couldn't they knew as the US did that the whole region would have gone over to the Russian pole in a flash after Centuries of British manipulation and deceit.
Therefore I reckon the Zionists were originally used by the Western powers as a foil against a united anti western region similarly to the way the Apartheid policy's of South Africa were used by the West to cling on to the cape of good hope. Unlike South Africa where only a bastardized version of a minority religion was used the Zionist cult has sprouted wings and I believe that it has become so powerful and so important that Zionism belief is mandatory for any Western leader to be elected.
It could be that this cult has become the religion of the Elite and that they now really do believe the bullshit they started.

Posted by: Quest Jan 10 2009, 03:44 PM

QUOTE (Timothy Osman @ Jan 10 2009, 01:05 PM) *
IMO Zionism had nothing to do with religion apart from the fact that Judaism has been has been used as the basis and foundation of a nation by a movement/cult of Europeans. The corruption of the faith followed with its glazed eyed zealots ready willing and believing any BS they were fed, just like any other religiously manipulated people.
The fact is that the British made a total cluster f*ck of the middle East in every single line they drew on a map, their Empire's end has given the world some great hangovers precisely because they never let go, because they couldn't they knew as the US did that the whole region would have gone over to the Russian pole in a flash after Centuries of British manipulation and deceit.
Therefore I reckon the Zionists were originally used by the Western powers as a foil against a united anti western region similarly to the way the Apartheid policy's of South Africa were used by the West to cling on to the cape of good hope. Unlike South Africa where only a bastardized version of a minority religion was used the Zionist cult has sprouted wings and I believe that it has become so powerful and so important that Zionism belief is mandatory for any Western leader to be elected.
It could be that this cult has become the religion of the Elite and that they now really do believe the bullshit they started.


A good take on it, T.O.

For those interested, the below site cotains a wealth of information on Freemasonry.

Freemason Watch
http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/

Posted by: Quest Jan 10 2009, 09:33 PM

One question that has not yet been raised is how exactly Freemasonry hurts the public and helps the NWO.

As I undestand it, Freemasons do "favors" for one another and award work, jobs and positions over non-Freemasons. This is especially bad when it comes to filling government positions where objectivity and honesty are requirements. Laws and bills furthering Masonic goals are thus made easier. Additionally, you know where your bread is buttered and are not as likely to step out of line. Further still, being surrounded by like minded people can foster an "us against them" attitude.

Any others?

Posted by: albertchampion Jan 10 2009, 11:23 PM

i don't know as much about freemasonry as i would like to know.

i recognize that george washington was a freemason. as was benjamin franklin[i think].

and i have read arguments propounded that the failures of the imperial forces of george 3 to successfully prosecute the war against the colonial insurrection was the result of fellow freemasons in the general staffs of the imperial forces. often cited is the battle of saratoga, where burgoyne[not a freemason] was denied his victory over the colonials by general william howe[a freemason].

the implication is that the extrication of the colonies from the hanoverian monarchy was a freemasonic conspiracy.

in my experience, i have found that there is a freemason greasing of the rails to success. in the state of ohio, if you had political/legal ambitions, you were well-advised to become a freemason.

in my younger days, trying to sell in certain oilfield territories[west texas, oklahoma, northern louisiana, california] i encountered a lot of discouraging responses to my efforts. i couldn't figure it out. and then one afternoon, i was calling on a superintendent of a gas plant in crane, texas. who had taken a liking to me. he asked me how i was doing. not very well i replied. i told him that i seemed to be unable to convert the success of my products at his plant to other entities of his company. and this was his response....

you know, i am not a member of the lodge. but almost every other superintendent is. you would change your luck by becoming a mason.

this left me speechless. though i had belonged to exclusive clubs[a status i eventually repudiated], i had never been a member of a semi-secret society. and philosophically, i had no desire to do that to make a buck.

but, i recalled that my grandfather, very connected in ohio politics, had been a grand pajandrum in that lodge. and had bequeathed me his grand pajandrum ring.

so, i decided to see if that evidence of freemasonry made any difference in my selling capabilities. i took to wearing that ring. ka-ching. it was too crazy. it also was the worst thing that could have happened to me as it confirmed the everyday operation of conspiracies.

i eventually stopped wearing the ring. i had learned what i did not really want to learn.

but, my observations of secret societies was not suspended.

for the sake of brevity, i observed that 20th century freemasonry appeared to have adopted totalitarian/gangster objectives.

the most startling illustration of that was[is] the italian freemasonic lodge known as propaganda due[P2]. whose grandmaster was licio gelli.

this lodge was the tear in the fabric of operation gladio. the nato program of false flag ops throughout europe [perhaps elsewhere]. nato's creation/nurturing of "terrorists".

it was also the tear in the fabric of the vatican's investment in global narcotics trafficking/international gangsterism.

is that the NWO involvement you were interested in?

but, let's go deeper into freemasonry. i think that there are virtually undiscussed TEMPLAR lodges. and personally, i think that the skull & bones at yale is such a lodge.

this is a crusaders lodge. in an odd sense, its relationship to zionism revolves upon its creation of a central banking system. which was eventually adopted by the preeminent advocates of perpetual warfare, zionism, the rothschild family.

i think that the revealing portrait of the usg[congress and executive branch] is who are the jews. who are the freemasons.

Posted by: cheapchippy Jan 11 2009, 04:27 AM

If Zionists have infiltrated the US Govt. then I suppose I cant expect Obama to denounce Israel.

But he had better!

Posted by: dMole Jan 11 2009, 05:12 AM

2 words:

Rahm Emanuel.

Posted by: dMole Jan 11 2009, 05:15 AM

2 more:

Gaza genocide.

Posted by: Skepticon Jan 11 2009, 09:57 AM

Thanks for censoring me again.

Posted by: Quest Jan 11 2009, 12:52 PM

Albert wrote...

QUOTE
for the sake of brevity, i observed that 20th century freemasonry appeared to have adopted totalitarian/gangster objectives.

the most startling illustration of that was[is] the italian freemasonic lodge known as propaganda due[P2]. whose grandmaster was licio gelli.

this lodge was the tear in the fabric of operation gladio. the nato program of false flag ops throughout europe [perhaps elsewhere]. nato's creation/nurturing of "terrorists".

it was also the tear in the fabric of the vatican's investment in global narcotics trafficking/international gangsterism.


Albert, have a look at 1:50 in the following video.
Sears Tower Terrorism Arrests Miami Freemason Temple
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsljIska4K8

Posted by: Quest Jan 11 2009, 01:00 PM

Now have a look at the following...

MTV Wishes You A Masonic Christmas
http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?swf=http%3A//s.ytimg.com/yt/swf/cps-vfl70586.swf&video_id=tmXV0eO-_tc&rel=1&showsearch=1&eurl=http%3A//imo5.we.bs/index.html&iurl=http%3A//i1.ytimg.com/vi/tmXV0eO-_tc/hqdefault.jpg&sk=6qY_90jAOlpq3k8mTowPklC-63_3svfjC&use_get_video_info=1&load_modules=1

Dan Dicks: PressForTruth.ca Explains MTV's Masonic Temple
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7K98KRpN0Ss&feature=related

Then there is this one I just came across. Watch the entire video. Incredible.

Freemasons promotes child murder in mtv commercial
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fxHiqx0vw8&feature=related

Posted by: tumetuestumefaisdubien Jan 12 2009, 03:08 PM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jan 7 2009, 11:14 PM) *
tumetuestumefaisdubien, great post IMO. Deep stuff. I'll only add that the infiltration of the Catholic Church likely began at the time of the Templars - with Innocent II, who was promoted to the position of Pope by a big supporter of the Templar order, Bernard Clairvaux. For a long time I envisioned the Templar knights and the Church as being ideologically at odds and couldn't understand how they came to be the pope's militia - then I discovered that Pope Innocent II was the Templar knights' own man on the inside.

In fact the true christian zionism - like a biblical occultism of the 2nd comming and the Christ reign in Jerusalem - started even before the Templars were even found - and already the 1st crusade was ideologicaly based on such a stuff - and nobody can now surely tell if the ideology was just a justification or cover-up or simply a "fundraiser" idea for the funding of the 1st crusade (which I suspect had more secular, trade-military purposes - to get the control over the trade with middle and far east - against the raising islam - and the ideology was just something which was suitable to persuade the papacy to bless such a risky bussiness in a time of ultimate pover of the "too naive to face the threats" scholastic christianity - yes I'm a cynical sceptic rolleyes.gif ), but it seems to me be a logical conclusion. The Templars then in my opinion just became "guardians" of this way of paranoid thinking and encouraged by the tolerance of the blatant heresy of the original "theological" reasons of the 1st crusade they with the rising power and wealth were falling deeper and deeper into occultism and fanatism - which one would expect if they were allowed to look through the cabbala, talmud and all the other occult stuff (as also the islamic literature and islamic "mahdi occultism"), which usually were then considered "libri prohibiti", or simply largely unavailable at that time.

It's possible that the pope (except the Innocent II in the early years of Templars) wasn't directly a Templar's "insider" - but the faillure of the further crusades then showed how powerful the islam could be, so he always was just pragmaticaly protecting Templars to the very end - even they were apparent heretics - because they resp. the crusaders largely governed by them were then only real practically loyal power to face the threat of islam - which then led to the papacy schizm - whose main reason "in the behind the scenes" I suspect was actually that ambiquity of the attitudes towards this very issue.

The "end of the story" was then king Philip decision to destroy the Templars, because they were destroying the european finances with methods intimately reminding the much later "BankofEngland after 1712 banking" (at the time of medieval blatantly illegal - but serving good for the pragmatic purposes of the crusades - and of course also other stuff - financing). In fact there is even the possibility that even at that time (at the end of 13th and beginning of the 14th century) all already well knew how dangerous the islam is to their power or to the whole christian culture.

So I would not see Templars black'n'white. But the fact remains that it were them who elaborated the christian zionism ideology and I think there couldn't be much controversy about this simple fact even there are very few sources which would confirm this. I think their real "infiltration" of the catholic church could begin after their dispersion, before it was a heretic but largely tolerated entity.

I even think, to get back to our times, that the jews can in certain sense be considered a "hijacked nation", which just serves to continue this crazy ideology founded in connection with the 1st crusade, which is just justified by the say "exotic" interpretations of scriptures puting it to the religiuos scope - to sell it to the people, when in fact in the behinds there are purely political reasons - to wedge a base for the destabilization of islam - mainly then for economical reasons - to have (in this "crusades of modern age") open way to steal their natural resources (and possibly keep them from becoming a superpower which can challenge the moral base of the christianity as an "alternative new covenant" ) - which was going on whole the 2nd half of the 20th century. To say it in lapidary manner: the Israel is just a proxy war of the west against islam. (founded in times when Stalin was asking: "who is pope, how much of divisions he has?" - by British, then by Americans)

This is how it can be seen when we consciously avoid all leaning to some "conspiracy explanations". - it could be basiaclly just a pragmatic imperialism of the west, covered up or justified by a purported blatant fanatism - which becomes of course real in case of the "mid-pyramid" promoters of the almost the same politics towards islam as in the medieval - just updated for the present situation. Of course there are many interbreeded aristocrats serving this purposes of the west dominance, not knowing the whole masterplan - which just could be in foundations a simple proteus strategy how to preserve the western civilization, or more expresly "its unique social structure and way of life" (from the scope of the western elites read: parasitism carried on whole the world) - and the occult stuff can be just a way how to explain and at the same time time blurr the complexity of the "problem of the world" - which was always the immanent scope of the elites - which always wanted to have at least a fiction that they can fully find a sense of, steer it and solve the problem thereof - one would call it a "disease of power" - which would and is inherently leading to unintended ends - "side effects" of atrocities of unprecedented epic extensions.

I think the ideologies usually serve just as a justification of pragmatical goals - something which enwreathe it with an aura of the fatalism, creating an integrity of a common identity, when in fact the goals are just a sum of a compromise of many different goals or tendencies working in a commont paradigm of basic morals. Such a basic moral in case of the christian society is the moral of grace I mentioned above - that's the main centerpoint which makes the real difference between the christian and all other faiths - but this moral is actually just "reserved" for the western masses and, its elites in their deeply rooted hypocrisy and with at least subliminal paranoid tendencies have in fact the morals of the occultism to maintain the power hierarchy and any grace is just a pretended charity covering the greed of a predator.

I also think the power elites we needn't take black'n'white - as eg Alex Jones - calling their interbreeding - old as the humankind itself - "the eugenics". In fact if the society have to be a sane one eg being able to defend itself - then it needs a good and well established elites as well as a well informed and organized "plebs". In fact the roman model was so succesful in all its later forms (the democracy of the west is usually based on clasical roman institutions - during the republic as well as in the time of the empire) for ballancing this two sides. With all the honesty we must say, we never had anything better to maintain the social contract, and the excesses usually stem from the disturbances of this equilibrium - either as the corporativist fascism (later globalized) or the internationalist socialism (later globalized as paradoxicly the leading leftist ideology behind the neo-corporativism of NWO) - to name the commonly known extremes in the recent history. The interbreeding of the elites I would consider being a logical behaviour of elites and the bloodlines as a natural result of such an elitist strategy. I don't find anything "dark" in it itself. Everybody wants to have sustainable and influential offspring. This argument against elites is in my opinion entrenching.

What I find being dark are the occult ideologies used to maintain the cohesion of the elitist identity. One of the most dangerous of them in the present is for me the christian zionism - as the leading ideology behind the contemporary wars in the middle east, behind the false flag terrorism, behind the destabilization of the classical church influence as a guarantee of the morality and moral integrity in the western society (especially infiltrating the very cores of the majority of the protestant churches and attempting to marginalize the catholic and orthodox churches), behind the destruction of the western social contract (giving the elie a justification for not to be responsible to the masses for the "higher goals") and behind the depletion of the moral integrity of democratical institutions (one can see it quite well observing the absolute destruction of the US democracy moral integrity by the christian and jewish zionist lobbyist groups.)

Posted by: dMole Jan 12 2009, 07:50 PM

QUOTE (Skepticon @ Jan 11 2009, 06:57 AM) *
Thanks for censoring me again.

Not sure if "Skepticon" was addressing me personally with this, but he's welcome and I didn't BTW.

Here's a little information on a rather secretive branch of IDF.

http://www.specwarnet.net/world/matkal.htm

http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/516-173.aspx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayeret_Matkal

"The 2003 dissidents

On December 21, 2003 thirteen Sayeret Matkal reservists葉he most senior being an officer at the rank of Rav Seren (Major)用resented to the Prime Minister's office in Jerusalem a letter declaring their refusal to perform military service in the Occupied Territories:[6]

"We have come to tell you, Mr. Prime Minister, that we will no longer be accomplices to the reign of oppression in the Territories and the denial of the most elementary human rights of millions of Palestinians, nor shall we be the shield of settlements erected on confiscated land".

The letter aroused a strong controversy, due to Sayeret Matkal having a high prestige in the Israeli society. It was especially strongly denounced by mainstream political figures who had their origin in the ranks of the unit, such as former Prime Ministers Ehud Barak and Binyamin Netanyahu."

Posted by: Sanders Jan 12 2009, 07:59 PM

QUOTE (dMole @ Jan 16 2009, 05:50 PM) *
On December 21, 2003 thirteen Sayeret Matkal reservists葉he most senior being an officer at the rank of Rav Seren (Major)用resented to the Prime Minister's office in Jerusalem a letter declaring their refusal to perform military service in the Occupied Territories:[6]

"We have come to tell you, Mr. Prime Minister, that we will no longer be accomplices to the reign of oppression in the Territories and the denial of the most elementary human rights of millions of Palestinians, nor shall we be the shield of settlements erected on confiscated land".

The letter aroused a strong controversy, due to Sayeret Matkal having a high prestige in the Israeli society. It was especially strongly denounced by mainstream political figures who had their origin in the ranks of the unit, such as former Prime Ministers Ehud Barak and Binyamin Netanyahu."



Wow. Good for them.

Posted by: dMole Jan 12 2009, 08:21 PM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jan 12 2009, 04:59 PM) *
Wow. Good for them.

Yes unfortunately "ethics" is not rewarded and often is a "liability" for military officers in these PNACian, neocon times. What was that about falling on one's sword again?

Admiral Fallon steps down as CENTCOM commander

http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=53237

Posted by: dMole Jan 12 2009, 08:39 PM

QUOTE (albertchampion @ Jan 10 2009, 08:23 PM) *
in my experience, i have found that there is a freemason greasing of the rails to success. in the state of ohio, if you had political/legal ambitions, you were well-advised to become a freemason.
...
you know, i am not a member of the lodge. but almost every other superintendent is. you would change your luck by becoming a mason.

this left me speechless. though i had belonged to exclusive clubs[a status i eventually repudiated], i had never been a member of a semi-secret society. and philosophically, i had no desire to do that to make a buck.

but, i recalled that my grandfather, very connected in ohio politics, had been a grand pajandrum in that lodge. and had bequeathed me his grand pajandrum ring.

so, i decided to see if that evidence of freemasonry made any difference in my selling capabilities. i took to wearing that ring. ka-ching. it was too crazy. it also was the worst thing that could have happened to me as it confirmed the everyday operation of conspiracies.

i eventually stopped wearing the ring. i had learned what i did not really want to learn.

but, my observations of secret societies was not suspended.

I was to find out somewhat late in life that "brassy" military work is much the same way. There are several "military lodges" scattered about. NASA is much more so from what I've been able to determine...

EDIT:
http://www.mitre.org/

Is MITRE Corp. The Trojan Horse of 9/11?
http://911review.org/companies/MITRE/MITRE_Bollyn.html

Strangely I've had a "locked door" (nearly classified governmental) discussion follow me from Phoenix to Detroit and beyond. Even more strangely, this "curious" little elderly fellow wasn't even in the room or state of AZ for that "locked door" discussion.

Most curious of all, I never broke OPSEC either.

EDIT: Does anyone else find albert's tale somewhat gollumic and Tolkeinesque?

Posted by: dMole Jan 12 2009, 09:03 PM

QUOTE (dMole @ Jan 12 2009, 05:39 PM) *
NASA is much more so from what I've been able to determine...

Here is one of the more interesting books you are likely to ever find (in the NASA, JPL, or any other context you like- think Rocket Science meets "Rolling Stone"). John "Jack" Whiteside Parsons was self-educated IIRC.

http://feralhouse.com/titles/occult/sex_and_rockets.php

Scientology guru L. Ron Hubbard also had strong Navy Intelligence ties IIRC.

See also Dark Mission.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?s=&showtopic=12155&view=findpost&p=10740263

Posted by: Timothy Osman Jan 13 2009, 06:38 AM

QUOTE
On December 21, 2003 thirteen Sayeret Matkal reservists葉he most senior being an officer at the rank of Rav Seren (Major)用resented to the Prime Minister's office in Jerusalem a letter declaring their refusal to perform military service in the Occupied Territories:[6]

"We have come to tell you, Mr. Prime Minister, that we will no longer be accomplices to the reign of oppression in the Territories and the denial of the most elementary human rights of millions of Palestinians, nor shall we be the shield of settlements erected on confiscated land".

The letter aroused a strong controversy, due to Sayeret Matkal having a high prestige in the Israeli society. It was especially strongly denounced by mainstream political figures who had their origin in the ranks of the unit, such as former Prime Ministers Ehud Barak and Binyamin Netanyahu."


This bugs me, probably because I'm an old conspiracy theorist but the Zionist plan, plan d was well established and had been running for years. The best piece of propaganda Israel could use against the existence of plan d would be military dissent. A theory could be that this particular unit was chosen for greater impact and the fact that the units true loyalty would be beyond question to anyone in the know.

Posted by: dMole Jan 13 2009, 11:26 AM

Well it was the Wiki after all TO, although I have read a book written by a Sayeret Matkal commando.

Here are some more non-Wiki sources on this and releated events:

http://www.mideastweb.org/timeline.htm

http://www.seruv.org.il/english/article.asp?msgid=211

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1230-06.htm

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1220526712951&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter

Posted by: Omega892R09 Jan 13 2009, 11:28 AM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jan 7 2009, 02:42 AM) *
I absorbed a lot of info calls this the "Gogi" branch, "Gogi" derives from the word "Gog" as does the name of the Caucasus country of Georgia). The Gogi branch spread north from the Caucasus, Balkans and Scythia (Scythia would later become Khazaria) and gave rise to the barbarian tribes including the Franks who were very important of course, probably the Huns too, and, the Vikings.

I wonder how many British primary school children are made aware of these two as we were in my day. You may find this line of research interesting Sanders:

http://www.lordmayorsshow.org/visitors/history/gogmagog

#2 attempt to post due to connection drop.

#3 attempt to post due to connection drop.

Looking bad again

#4 attempt to post due to connection drop.

Nope bombed again

#5

Nope bombed again

#6

Edit. Nearly lost it gain. Now it has dropped again.

Posted by: dMole Jan 13 2009, 11:35 AM

I recall there being an S&B 322 Bushite "Gog/Magog" connection from some of my reading. A quick search turns up this:

http://www.texemarrs.com/042008/gog_magog_scroll_of_bush.htm

http://yearsofawe.blogspot.com/2005/02/land-of-magog-part-one.html

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/9/21/52726/1703

EDIT: I deleted 2 of the Gog/Magog triplicate posts for you O892- I know you've been having trouble with the connection for a long time. Have all the electrons "spoiled" on that side of the pond? wink.gif

EDIT2: I just noticed that I couldn't see O892's post in the "Outline" display mode when I just tried it now. I generally use the Standard Display mode, but one of the three might work better than others. I would expect a lot of "latency" on the video and graphic intensive threads en route to the UK. I did see his post in the "Linear +" Display Option (upper right menu in the thread title block). I've been getting a lot of unsolicited "email scanner" messages from one of my virus scanners since the last Windoze update- hmmm...

Posted by: albertchampion Jan 14 2009, 04:17 AM

tolkein, in one aspect of his novels, was relating a reality that was better disguised as fiction.

surely you are not so naive as to think that undiscussed relationships do not have unrevealed consequences.

at one time, perhaps still, freemasonic relationships controlled the state of ohio.

i may be gettting it inaccurately, but i think that jimmy rhodes was a mason.

william saxbe definitely was. and when his son decided to go for the brass ring, he became a mason.

freemasonry in politics is a subject for contemplation.

many masons will wear their rings. in my experience, these rings are recognized by other masons.

the grand pajandrum ring is very special. it is almost papist in its power. oddly enough in that freemasonry was opposed to the papacy and was proscribed by the vatican. odder still, many members of p2 were cardinals.

that grand pajandrum ring could take me many places. it was a ring of some power. i keep it in a safety deposit vault.

there is always the possibility that before i go south there will be a need to wear it again. summoning its influence.

Posted by: Timothy Osman Jan 14 2009, 09:27 PM

Not that it probably matters but how many more sleeps until Gog the scroll wielder pisses off to South America. He scares the hell out of me as does his wife who looks like the Joker out of the Adam West version of Batman.

Posted by: Quest Jan 14 2009, 10:29 PM

WHAT'S BEHIND FREEMASONRY?

http://bloodonthealtar.tripod.com/CABAQUOT.HTM

"The Kabalah is indeed of the essence of Freemasonry." -- co-Mason Helena P. Blavatsky, co-founder of the Theosophical Society, as quoted from secondary source "Secret Teachings of the Masonic Lodge" by Ankerberg and Weldon, page 236

"Freemasonry is kabbalism in another garb." -- Freemason F. De P. Castelle, "The Genuine Secrets of Freemasony Prior to A.D. 1717, according to secondary source "Hidden Secrets of the Eastern Star" by Dr. Cathy Burns, page 263

"Kabalah is the key of the occult sciences." -- Albert Pike, 33rd Degree Mason, as quoted from secondary source "Secret Teachings of the Masonic Lodge" by Ankerberg and Weldon, page 219

"The Jewish mysteries are the source of our present tradition of which was carried to Rome, and thence passed down through the Collegia into the mediaveal guilds, finally emerging in the eighteenth century in the speculative rituals fo the Craft degrees, in the Holy Royal Arch and the degree of Mark Master Mason, and in those of other emblems and ceremonies..." -- Freemason C.W. Leadbeater, "Freemasonry and its Ancient Mystic Rites, page 77

"The whole basis of our theory is the Qabalah...." -- Aleister Crowley, Freemason and father of modern satanism as quoted in Craig Heimbichner's "Blood On The Altar", page 116; primary source is "Magic In Theory and Practice" by the self-professed "Beast-666" himself, Crowley.

"....the theories of Qabbalism are inextricably interwoven with the tenets of alchemy, Hermeticism, Rosicrucianism, and Freemasonry." -- 33rd Degree Freemason Manly Palmer Hall, as quoted from secondary source "Secret Teachings of the Masonic Lodge," by Ankerberg and Weldon, page 220

"...in the Kabbala we find fragments of the symbolic knowledge which was once the exclusive property of the initiates. So close are the analogiews between certain of the doctrines of the Kabbala and those of the earlier degrees of Masonry, that it has been supposed that Kabbalistic students were responsible for the introduction of speculative Masonry into our modern Craft. The student of occultism does not hold this veiw, for he knows that our speculative rituals belong in substance to a far older past than the eighteenth century, and that they perpetuate the tradition of the Jews, who derived it from the Mysteries of Egypt. He sees in the Kabbala a written and exoteric portiion of certain teachings belonging to the Jews, though handed down...." - Freemasonry and Its Ancient Mystic Rites, Freemason C.W. Leadbeater, page 73

"The Cabala may be defined to be a system of philosophy which embraces certain mystical interpretations of Scripture, and metaphysical and spiritual beings... Much use is made of it in the advanced degrees, and entire Rites have been constructed on its principles." -- Freemason Albert Mackey, "Mackey's Revised Encyclopedia of Freemasonry," as quoted from secondary source "Secret Teachings of the Masonic Lodge," page 220

"Masonry cannot be fully appreciated or understood without knowledge of the Qabalist Tree of Life..." -- Paul Foster case, Freemason and Golden Dawn member, considered to be the outstanding authority of Tarot, Qbalah, Alchemy, and other occult topics, as quoted by Dr. Cathy Burns, "Hidden Secrets of the Eastern Star, page 263

"...all Masonic associations owe to it [Kabala] their secrets and their symbols." --Eliphas Levi, Transcendental Magic, as quoted from secondary source, "Fallen Angel" by Thomas Friend on page 241 [brackets mine; Levi was a 19th century Freemason and black majician, whose works were plaigarized by infamous Freemason, Albert Pike, according to Freemason Manly Hall.]

"For the good of Masonry, generally, but for the Jewish nation in particular. Royal Arch Degree of Freemasonry" -- quoted from Craig Heimbichner's book Blood On The Altar, page 83. Pictured here is the Masonic Jewel, Royal Arch, 7th Degree rite in which York Rite Freemasons pledge allegiance to the Jewish nation. The Masonic jewell of this rite is Solomon's Seal with a sun blazing inside a triange in the center.


"The true philosophy, known and practised by Soloman, is the basis on which Masonry is founded." -- Albert Pike, Freemason of the 33rd and last Degree, "Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Rite of Freemasonry", 1871, L.H. Jenkins Inc., p. 785. "According to Talmudic legends, Solomon understood the mysteries of the Qabbalah. He was also a necromancer, being able to summon demons." -- Manly P. Hall, 33rd Degree Freemason, "The Secret Teachings of All Ages", p. 566.

"Freemasonry is founded upon the activities of this secret society of Central European adepts, whom the studious Mason will find to be the definite 'link' between the modern Craft and the Ancient Wisdom. The outer body of Masonic philosophy was merely the veil of this qabbalistic order whose members were the custodians of the true Arcanum." -- 33rd Degree Freemason Manly Palmer Hall, "Rosicrucian and Masonic Origins

"The basis of the Western occultism of medieval is the Kabbalah of the medieval Hebrew Rabbis." William Wynn Westcott, a Freemason, "The Rosicrucians: Past and Present, At Home and Abroad, an Address to the Soc. Rosic. In Anglia

"That great Kabbilistical association known in Europe under the name of Masonry appeared suddenly in the world when the revolt against the Church had just succeeded in dismembering Christian unity." -- Eliphas Levi, Freemason, black magician and Cabalist, author of "Trancendental Magic", "Mysteries of the Qabalah", and "The History of Magic", from whence this quote was derived, page 283, here notes that Freemasonry is a Cabalist institution and suggests that it became public in consequence of the wreckage of Christian unity that followed in the wake of the Reformation, which it likely had no small part in effecting in this author's opinion.

"Masonry is a search after Light. That search leads us dire- ctly back, as you see, to the Kaballah." -- Freemason Albert Pike, 33rd Degree, as quoted in Ankerberg and Weldon's excellent book, "Secret Teachings of the Masonic Lodge," page 217

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judaism is one of the oldest living estoteric traditions in the world. Virtually every form of Western mysticism and spiritualism known today draws upon Jewish mythic and occult teachings--magic, angelology, alchemy, numerology, astral projection, dream interpretation, astrology, amulets, divination, altered states of consciousness, alternate healing and rituals of power--all have roots in the Jewish occult." -- Rabbi Geoffrey W. Dennis, Jewish Myth, Magic, and Mysticism, xi, 2007, Llewellyn Publications,

Posted by: Quest Jan 14 2009, 10:48 PM

http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/sixpointedstar.html

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

REVELATION 13:18


666 - The Masonic Square and Compass/Hexagram

The Six Pointed Star
By, Dr. O.J. Graham

The Six-Pointed Star is going into its fourth edition. There have been thousands of letters over the years and comments are available upon request. The questions which are asked of this author are:

What made you even remotely curious that the six-pointed star might not be "Jewish"? After all, it is called the "Star of David" and has it not become the international insignia of Jewishness and the State of Israel?
The controversy and the challenge are answered in the book. The quest began at York University, Ontario, Canada, when an Orthodox Jewish friend of mine was investigating Messianic Judaism. Our intellectual conversation covered many topics which included the so-called Star of David, which he said he did not use as the symbol G-d really gave the children of Israel was the seven-branched Menorah. Being a journalist, he challenged me to explore the six-pointed star. And I accepted the challenge, with the plan that I would prove its Jewishness. After all, I wore one and felt I had to defend it, even to him.

That was the summer of 1979 and the research took me four years to complete. I found a few Jews who knew it was not Jewish, and these are mentioned in the book. Others did not think about it, and most did not care whether it was orignially occult or not - they did not think it mattered. I checked Jewish sources and all their encyclopaedias attested that it was not originally Jewish and was not used as the symbol for any of the twelve tribes of Israel. Jewish sources said it wasn't originally Jewish. So, what was it? That took four years of research. From archive to archive, library to library...history book to history book.

The first mention of the star was in Amos 5:26 regarding the trek from Egypt to Canaan. Then in 922 B.C., when Solomon married the daughter of Pharoah and went into magic and witchcraft and built an altar to Ashtoroth and Moloch. The book traces the six pointed star from Egypt to Solomon, to Arab Magic and Witchcraft, to Druid use(references are documented). The book traces the star through Freemasonry usage to Mayer Amschel Bauer, who, in the 17th century, changed his name to depict the red six-pointed star (or shield) which he had hung on his door in Germany, and thus began the family of "Red Shield" or Rothschild. The research carried on through this family, to their court of arms, to Cabala, to Astrology, to Hitler and his putting a yellow six-pointed star on all Jews during the holocaust, to the Zionist symbol, and finally to the flag of the State of Israel and beyond.

Because this symbol is comprised of a six within a six within a six (6 points, 6 triangles, 6 sides of the hexagon in the middle) the research also included a look at the 666 prophecies in the Book of Daniel etc., regarding the "wilful King" (anti-Christ) and the "mark of the beast". The Scriptural significance of the number seven and a Biblical description of the real Messiah and the seven-branched Candlestick (Menorah) which God gave to the children of Israel as an everlasting covenant (which is also mentioned in the New Testament) is covered. All the sources are written at the bottom of each page making it easy for readers to see and check for themselves.

I started out to defend this symbol, but ended up shocked and quite devasted with the evidence gleaned from the academic research. It is the only book on the origin and history of the six-pointed star or hexagram. Have a good read, check the references yourself, and I would be happy to hear your comments.

Posted by: dMole Jan 14 2009, 11:54 PM

QUOTE (Timothy Osman @ Jan 14 2009, 06:27 PM) *
Not that it probably matters but how many more sleeps until Gog the scroll wielder pisses off to South America. He scares the hell out of me as does his wife who looks like the Joker out of the Adam West version of Batman.

The scariest thing TO is how much the sluttiest daughter/"Texas skank" author (IMHO) Jenna? looks like a bottle blonde "re-mix" of "the Joker out of the Adam West version of Batman." laughing1.gif

Well here directly from the 2 MOST REPUTABLE sources for the "generation of change" (yes, of course... Wikipedia and MTV):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_2009_presidential_inauguration

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1598633/20081105/puff_daddy.jhtml

January 20, 2009.

EDIT: Just for T.O.- this is a recent "married, respectable author" photo sans-Joker makeup of Jenna:

http://www.usatoday.com/life/books/news/2007-03-05-jenna-bush_N.htm

Posted by: Timothy Osman Jan 15 2009, 06:41 AM

Thanks Dmole. She looks like a future Secretary of State to me.

I found this video on another forum, It's about the terrible time the chosen ones had trying to smote the Amalekites.

Check out the shiny thing, all the Agagites wanted one.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=ceNGJo6oIKk&eurl=http://www.911oz.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3594

Maybe Mr Sanders could share some information on these Amalekites and Agagites they look like those bloody Gazans to me. Sarcasm.

Posted by: Sanders Jan 15 2009, 10:32 AM

QUOTE (Timothy Osman @ Jan 19 2009, 05:41 AM) *
Maybe Mr Sanders could share some information on these Amalekites and Agagites they look like those bloody Gazans to me. Sarcasm.


Mr.??? laugh.gif

Don't know much about the Amalekites, I think they were Arabs that spread into the Levant from Arabia.

I find it ironic that the Amalekites are demonized at the beginning of that little clip as practicing child-sacrifice. Most everyone in the Levant practiced child-sacrifice back then (though the killing of a child was rare and sacrificing of animals much more common). This was particularly true of the Canaanites, but the Israelites, at least to some degree, practiced such rites too. The word "Tophet" is used in the bible in reference to a place a mile from Jerusalem (in the valley of Hinnom) ... Tophet is routinely used to describe sites in Phoenician cities like Carthage where sacrifices were performed. The northern tribes, who's having been carted off into northern Mesopotamia provides the plausible link between the Khazarian ancestors of the Zionists in control of Israel at the moment and Israel, were more pagan - it was their refusal to throw off their pagan ways that was put down as the reason for their punishment, if I remember correctly from Bible school (?) ... the word Judaism derives of course from Judah, which was in the south. Which is why I used the word "ironic". Not sure if people will be able to figure out from that what I'm getting at, but I don't want to put too fine a point on it - this is all very "grey".

I've been working on a post - elaborating on some of the recent postings in this thread, all of which I've been reading btw and which I appreciate, and which have inspired me to try and get my thoughts in type in a coherent way. Unfortunately I keep reworking it and not posting it. It's getting quite long and unwieldy rolleyes.gif Currently I'm struggling with genealogy - and trying to figure out a deep mystery regarding Byzantium which I suspect has some significance with regard to Zionism and which has eluded me for a year.

Hopefully I'll get it together and post some of what I've been working on soon.

Posted by: Sanders Jan 15 2009, 12:56 PM

Lots of things have been mentioned in this thread, all of which fit quite snuggly together into a larger puzzle, IMO.

Gog and Magog... Frankly, I'm a bit shocked that they are the mascots of the City of London blink.gif - didn't know that ... and even more shocked that they would make them out of wicker. Why would they they do that!?? There's only one reasonable explanation. (Assumedly you've all seen or read or heard about the wicker man and I don't have to draw you a map.) It just baffles me that a wicker Gog (or Magog) mascot would be in the Mayor's Show. Frikken creepy!!!

And regarding Quest's post - the MTV clip. I remarked in another thread that that clip was aired in Italy, and that the Roberto Calvi (god's banker) scandal which was uncovered there would suggest that Italians are far more aware of the meanings behind these symbols, and hence this clip may have been a dark attempt at humor. Still, the symbology is stunning for something aired on TV anywhere, IMO. I was quite shocked. The elk's head or whatever that is is an obvious attempt to convey the head of Baphomet, something in-between a cow and a goat - both of which have significance, which I will dutifully attend to in this post. (I hope.)

Gog & Magog are best known in association with prophesies about the anti-christ, end of the world and all that. MY overall theme in this thread, are the intertwined and tangled roots of the "Jewish and non-Jewish" elite of the modern western world. Not only do I believe that the roots of the two are connected in more ways than people imagine, I'm convinced that any distinction between the two in a religious sense disappear (to great extent at least) as you enter the inner circles of the ruling class. Look at the Freemasons - who do they try to keep out of their lodges? Jews? Muslims?? NO! Catholics! (Knights of Columbus is a mason-like order which was established by Catholics to counter Freemasonry, which excluded them.) These Kabbalah-oriented (I used that phrase for lack of a better one) institutions like the Freemasons and Rosicrucians engaged in a power struggle with the Catholic Church for centuries - it can be argued that the conflict can be traced all the way back to Akhenaton (Egypt) and continues to this day (MorganChase/Citibank against Bank of America???).

It's not much of a stretch to identify these groups with Skull and Bones, and the use of the Skull and Crossbones suggests an affinity with not only pirates (and by extension the Templar Knights), but Freemasonry as well. Conveniently (for me), the Skull and Bones of myth originated with the "Lord of Sidon", and Sidon was a short walk west from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Hermon , who's namesake was Hermes - who's mythical son was Pan. In fact, the area around Mt. Hermon (also known as Mt. Sion - not to be confused with Mt. Zion near Jerusalem) was known as Pania - and is now called Banius. Pan was the (Greek) son of Hermes, so, to cut to the chase, Hermes and Pan and Mt. Hermon and half-goats and bulls-horns and Baphomet heads are all connected and refer to the same thing - what, I'm not sure (the female part of the duality equation?), but Mt. Hermon was very very important in the Pagan days of the Holy Land, referred to as the gate through which Angels descended to Earth and mated with the daughters of man to create a (superior) race of giants ... the area around the mountain is dotted with "shrines" - where rituals took place. It is assumed but not concretely proven that child-sacrifice was among those.

This connects to where I want to go because Sidon, in Phoenician territory and near the City of Dan, was a pirate nest ... and, the "Lord of Sidon" is central to the myth of the "Jolly Roger", the Skull and Crossbones as was flown on pirate ships and was adopted by a fraternity of elites at Yale University.

The 'Lord of Sidon' is almost certainly Baldwin I who was a prominent crusader and king of Jerusalem, who's wife's son by a different marriage (which figures into the myth as well) was Roger II of Sicily, who (allegedly) flew the Skull and Crossbones on his ships (that's why it's called the "Jolly Roger").

Freemasons use the skull and crossbones in a ritual called the http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/gmd1999/pondering.html.

It was also embroidered on aprons worn by masons (a couple hundred years ago). This article about the Skull and Bones symbol touches on both the roots of the symbol and its use by the Templars and in Freemasonry, but goes much deeper than that - I recommend it.

http://www.esolibris.com/articles/alternative_history/skull_crossbones.php

If you read that whole thing, he touches on many things, one being the Chi-Rho, a P and X letter combination found on texts thousands of years old. The way they were written together may well be the original precursor of the skull and bones symbol. He also mentions Maraclea and its possible meaning ("dark-clear"), as well as the Egyptian deity Osiris - but doesn't however touch on the connection between the skull and bones and the constellation Orion, or the significance of the Christ and John the Baptist figures with relation to all this. John and Jesus' birthdays were each set 3 days after the winter and summer solstices respectively, at opposite points in the year and at the moment the sun perceptively begins its reversal, which indicates how the Christ and St. John figures were appropriated to express pagan attributes.

Orion (the constellation) was very significant in Egyptian religious terms, it is in Orion that Osiris was said to dwell and the two are often equated, furthermore Orion stands next to and is in the house of Taurus the bull, which he hunts. Egypt at the time was IN the "age" of Taurus (as we are now in the age of Pieces). The interesting thing about Orion, is that he has no head or legs. This is ostensibly, at least partly, the root source of the head and leg bones of the skull & bones symbol (in addition to the Chi-Rho and its possible role which I just mentioned). This is expressed again in terms of John the Baptist and the Templar obsession with him, the head of St. John (which king Herod had decapitated and presented as a gift to Salome), and the "legs" of the saltire cross which St. John's disciple Andrew was crucified on. The Templars BTW claimed to possess the head of St. John which they brought back from Constantinople (?) and kept in their church of Notre Dame d'Amiens (there are other heads alleged to be St. John's however). This can all be taken even one step further, by couching it all in the context of male-female, good-evil dichotomy central to Masonry, the mystery religions, Kabbalah etc. Orion (the hunter) expresses the male attribute, Taurus represents the female, the U shape of the horns expressing both the womb and the moon, the moon always being a female counterpart to the sun ... you can find the crescent moon at the foot of many Christian images of the Virgin Mary, and the ends of the crescent moon were routinely described as its "horns". This is (at least partly) why the head of a bull sat atop the brass idols to which children were sacrificed a few thousand years ago in the Levant and around the Mediterranean.

I tend to think of Freemasonry as an institution not unlike a school or college - for potential leaders of a certain ideology - a tool of a class of elitists who's traditions trace back to the Templars. Yale's Skull and Bones fraternity and Freemasonry are totally separate societies, but share similarities both in their use of the skull and crossbones symbol and and in the purpose they both ultimately serve in elite society - IMO. (It's interesting to note that the square black hat graduates wear when they get their "degree" is fashioned after a mason's mortar board.) But there have been other related groups too - the Rosicrucians for example...

Isaac Newton was a rosicrucian - who spent more time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton%27s_occult_studies#Newton.27s_studies_of_the_Temple_of_Solomon than science btw, how surprising that the Newton family crest is a saltire cross of bones!



There are other examples, such as the Andreae family crest which sports several saltire crosses (Johan Andreae was also a leading Rosicrucian), but maybe the most significant and unnoticed of such examples is the flag of Scotland, which features the saltire cross of St. Andrew. This is only fully appreciated when you remember that the Sinclairs were influential in Scotland then, who took their name from St. Clair sur Epte where their ancestor Rollo the Viking signed a treaty granting him and his followers Normandy in 911. (This date is of supreme importance to the elite, I would go so far as to propose that it's the reason the attacks were conducted on Sept. 11th.)

The connections between the Yale Skull and Bones society and Freemasonry don't end there. S&B's co-founder William H. Russell (the legal name of Skull & Bones is actually the Russell Trust) was from a long line of Masons. W. H. Russell, like so many in that influencial family, appears to have been obsessed with the occult (just google 'Russell' and 'occult' and you'll be swamped). In addition, there's a sort of "pirate" aspect to the Russells - they were heavily involved in the Chinese Opium trade. Even the New York Times couldn't keep that much from being printed in their http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990DE5DB1031F93BA15755C0A961958260&scp=9&sq=%22Karl+E.+Meyer%22&st=nyt. That article mentions who ran the Russell's Canton operation, Warren Delano, grandfather of FDR. There's another family that intermarried with the Delanos, the Astors, who, like the Roosevelts, held large tracts of land in Manhattan, and, like the Russells, dominated in the Chinese Opium trade.

It surprises me that the Dutch Roosevelts, like these other New York families they intermarried with, weren't into Opium as well, for that whole market was opened up originally by the Dutch East India Trading Company. While the Templars proper and the people who ran the D.E.I.T.C. are separated by centuries, both continued a tradition of seafaring and commerce, both legitimate and illicit - that is, provided you consider dealing in drugs and slaves illicit (sensibilities have changed somewhat over the years). Holland's competitor, the British East India Company, flew a flag that was practically the Templar banner (cross of St. George) slapped on over Viking/Phoenician red & white stripes. Admittedly such connections are weak, but not nonexistent and so I prefer to point them out. There is some controversy over whether the first publically traded corporation was the Dutch East India Trading Company, or whether the Templars should be awarded that title. I was also (not) surprised to discover that the D.E.I.T.C. and Freemasonry in Holland were closely connected. I don't think I need a better source than the Grand Lodge of South Africa:
http://www.grandlodge.co.za/news2-3.html

QUOTE
Freemasonry first took root in Southern Africa in 1772. The Southern point of Africa, the Cape of Good Hope, was opened up by the Dutch East India Company as a trading station to supply ships en route to the East Indies with fresh produce.

Freemasonry in the Netherlands, founded in 1756, was expanding rapidly and with many master of ships being Freemasons it was natural for a Lodge to be founded at this halfway station under the banner of the Grand East of the Netherlands. (G.E.N.)
doh1.gif

Still, since the whole jist of this and other of my posts pertains to my curiousity about the historical ties between Judaism and the Gnostic traditions of the Templars, Cathars, Paulicians etc. and the observation that the elite of these two communities - emphasis on "ELITE" - are often found operating together or allied, I think it's relevant.

There are people out there in cyberspace who claim the Dutch East India Trading Company was a Jewish operation. It wasn't, a more accurate estimate would probably be that Jewish investors in Holland (many of them diamond merchants) accounted for about http://www.goletapublishing.com/jstamps/0302deep.htm.

It needs to be said that usury was forbidden in the Christian world and banking and the gem trade (including gem-polishing) were about the only professions open to the Jewish population in Europe. The Templars (prior to their expungement) got around these usury rules by virtue of their great power and special papal approval. I would speculate that this put them in a unique position to become natural allies (or competitors) with Jewish money-lenders.

The Dutch & British West India Companies were heavily involved in the slave trade, and here we have another example of collaboration with wealthy Jewish investors. According to this guy (Rabbi of Bet Aviv and Chairman of the Department of Religious Studies at The College of William and Mary), auctioning activities were suspended on Jewish holidays. http://www.geocities.com/earlofdonegal/HEBREWS.htm If you look at the owners listed of various slave-ships at the bottom of that you'll see John and Jacob Roosevelt listed. (If the Roosevelts were Jewish, that's news to me ... but it doesn't detract from where I'm trying to go with all this either way.) There were two Jacobs, one of the Oyster Bay Roosevelts (ancestors of Teddy Roosevelt) and one of the Hyde Park Roosevelts (anscestor of FDR) and I don't know which one that would be, but John is obviously Johannes, Teddy Roosevelt's great-great-great grandfather. I point again to the intimacy of the Roosevelt family with the Opium-trading Delanos and Astors.

There were a couple of other significant companies which had a history of slave trading, Alexander Brown & Sons - the anscestor of Brown Brothers Harriman, along with two companies which would evolve into the Morgan empire - Beebe, Morgan & Company and Peabody, Riggs & Company. All three of these companies which formed the sphere of Rothschild influence in America and became the backbone of the modern banking industry were originally dry-goods/slave-trade houses. Eustace Mullins:
http://truedemocracy.net/td13/19.html

QUOTE
Tourists today gape at the magnificent mansions of the very rich in Newport, Rhode Island, without realizing that not only do these "cottages" stand as a memorial to the baronial desires of our Victorian millionaires, but that their erection in Newport represented a nostalgic memorialization of the great American fortunes, which had their beginnings in Newport when it was the capital of the slave trade. ... The pre-eminence of J.P. Morgan and the Brown firm in American finance can be dated to the development of Baltimore as the nineteenth century capital of the slave trade.


I could just state that both Jews and Templar descendents (now identified as Freemasons) migrated in large numbers from Portugal/Spain to Holland in response to the Spanish Inquisition and so precipitated the formation of the Dutch East India Trading Company and loss of Portugese dominance in the spice-trade to the Dutch and be done with it, but there's more to it, namely, why the Templars were there in the first place. This leads us to an ancient connection between Scotland, Spain/Portugal, and the Caucasus/Scythia.

Again, my whole premise revolves around what I perceive to be a linking of two ancient branches of a (percieved) royal blood line which eminated from Sumer (roll your eyes if you like), one which pooled around the Black Sea, another which led to Egypt and back to the Levant and Greece, where they met again. One of the results of this collision was the battle of Troy, the losers (proto-Vikings, proto-Goths etc.) leaving the area for points north. I point out that London may have been started as 'http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/3754849.stm', and that some of the first Templars hailed from Champagne, which had previously been called Troyes. I think I mentioned earlier how many Greek myths, once decoded, detail this mixing. There's a huge body of work on the web called Ladon-Gog which tries to do just that. There are some other important intances where these two branches met, one of which being the emmigration to Languedoc (southern France) by Rabbi Makhir at the request of Charlemagne which I mentioned earlier. That in fact was preceded by the Merovingians' claim of a blood relation to Mary Magdalene. Forget whether you buy the heresy that Mary and Jesus were married or not, or even if there was such a person who fled Israel for southern France ... the biblical Mary of Magdala herself was of royal blood and so a descendent of the Davidic line, which is really why the Merovingians were interested in advertising this claim, whether true or not. This (alleged) blood connection was all but severed when the Carolingians took over, and so Charlemagne imported a fresh injection of Davidic blood in the form of Rabbi Makhir.

Prior to all this, there was a strong Scythia-Levant connection, which is evidenced by three things I know of ... Phoenician trade with Scythia (north of the Black Sea - would later become Khazaria), the fact that there is a city in Israel formerly called Scythopolis, and the confusing business of Tamar Tephi. Tephi was the daughter of King Zedekiah and hence of the royal Davidic line, and allegedly travelled from Egypt to Ireland by way of Spain. One source I read has her married to one Eire-Ambion of Scythia. This makes me wonder if this story didn't get mixed up somehow with that of Scota, the Egytian princess who married a Scythian king and also made it to Ireland with her sons, also by way of Spain. This migration of Scota describes (in myth) the historical movement from the Black Sea area to Ireland via Spain of the Melesians. The Picts were the next big movement from the same general area to Britain, this time to Scotland - they may have followed the same route as the Milesians passing though Spain as well. The Picts can be identified with the Caldonians of Greece, who's Black Sea connections are described in myth (the Caledonian Boar Hunt) and their religious rites which originated in Phrygia and the Caucasus, specifically Colchis. (This is the Cult of Cybele, which arguably shared common origins with Kabbalah.) It is due to the Picts that Scotland was called Caldonia by the Romans. All of this is better expored and explained in my dragon thread, albeit torturously.

There is one other instance of place names providing a record of this link, the land of Portugal and Spain is correctly called the Iberian peninsula - and in the Caucasus next to Colchis (now comprising the country of Georgia) was the Kingdom of Iberia (!!!).

When the Templars were attacked by Philip IV they fled mainly to two places, Spain/Portugal, and Scotland (I think many also wound up in Switzerland). I can only guess that their choice of Iberia (Spain/Portugal) maybe had something to do with the area's historical connection with the Black Sea region (as their own roots traced back there too) and more to do with it being marginally outside the sphere of Catholic influence (that of course changed with the Spanish Inquisition).

As for Scotland, the Templars had allies there in the Sinclairs (with whom they would build Roslin Chapel). Some theorise that a few of the original Templars were blood related to the Sinclairs, which is probably true, Champagne (Troyes) was in Norman territory.

That's about as far as I can go tonight.

Posted by: dMole Jan 15 2009, 04:00 PM

QUOTE
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?act=findpost&pid=10762794Gog and Magog... Frankly, I'm a bit shocked that they are the mascots of the City of London blink.gif - didn't know that ... and even more shocked that they would make them out of wicker. Why would they they do that!?? There's only one reasonable explanation. (Assumedly you've all seen or read or heard about the wicker man and I don't have to draw you a map.) It just baffles me that a wicker Gog (or Magog) mascot would be in the Mayor's Show. Frikken creepy!!!

And regarding Quest's post - the MTV clip. I remarked in another thread that that clip was aired in Italy, and that the Roberto Calvi (god's banker) scandal which was uncovered there would suggest that Italians are far more aware of the meanings behind these symbols, and hence this clip may have been a dark attempt at humor. Still, the symbology is stunning for something aired on TV anywhere, IMO. I was quite shocked. The elk's head or whatever that is is an obvious attempt to convey the head of Baphomet, something in-between a cow and a goat - both of which have significance, which I will dutifully attend to in this post. (I hope.)

Gog & Magog are best known in association with prophesies about the anti-christ, end of the world and all that.

It is ironic that you posted this content today Sanders. I was semi-watching "Pan's Labyrinth" somewhere early-morning time in Spanish with English subtitles on one of the Hispanic movie channels (but I was about 3/4 asleep, and it kept sounding like Italian or Latin in spots). That's got considerable Baphomet going on BTW [although theyTM call it a "Faun" in this "fantasy" "child's tale" of the Spanish Fascist war]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan%27s_Labyrinth

That got waaay too frikken creepy though, so I flipped over to CNN. I woke up to the US Senate, Obama, and Hillary... blink.gif

EDIT:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_the_United_States_Senate

"...and a red liberty cap (above the shield) and crossed fasces (below) represent freedom and authority..."

[Ed- REALLY, dood?]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Senate_Seal.svg

Posted by: dMole Jan 15 2009, 06:47 PM

Some "random" links (or are they? whistle.gif )

Remember Huxley's "Charing T Tower"

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0403/is_4_48/ai_108194336/pg_4
------------
http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/04/0447.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_Tau

http://www.masonicdictionary.com/tau.html

Posted by: Sanders Jan 15 2009, 07:08 PM

Let me state that I'm not trying to demonize anyone, in fact it is from the Masons and pirate ships that we get the democratic sensibilities that led to the founding of the United States. The system whereby every hand got a share in the booty and a captain could be voted in or out drew many sailors into piracy from the much more authoritative world of the navies of Europe.

Posted by: dMole Jan 15 2009, 08:34 PM

I look more toward this for the "Founding Father philosophy," (and it predates much of the other stuff) but that's just me:

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/featured_documents/magna_carta/

Posted by: Quest Jan 15 2009, 09:33 PM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jan 16 2009, 12:08 AM) *
Let me state that I'm not trying to demonize anyone, in fact it is from the Masons and pirate ships that we get the democratic sensibilities that led to the founding of the United States. The system whereby every hand got a share in the booty and a captain could be voted in or out drew many sailors into piracy from the much more authoritative world of the navies of Europe.


No need to state that Sanders, you are good stuff and anyone reading your your posts in these forums can see the integrety in your words.

We are not trying to vilify any group but we are forced to research topics such as this because the powers that be won't do their job(s). That would include members of Freemasonry who hear no evil, speak no evil and see no evil. I say this because I have (had) a freind who is Mason but is in deep denial over certain members of his brotherhood, in particular, Gerald Ford, Arlene Specter, Earl Warren, most of the Apollo astroNOTS and on and on. We are merely asking questions that need to be asked in order to better understand the rotten world around us and if Masonry was more disciminating regarding their membership, people would not be asking the questions they do. Masonry has no one to blame but themselves.

Carry on. salute.gif

Posted by: Sanders Jan 16 2009, 01:23 AM

QUOTE (dMole @ Jan 19 2009, 06:34 PM) *
I look more toward this for the "Founding Father philosophy," (and it predates much of the other stuff) but that's just me:

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/featured_documents/magna_carta/


You're right, I overstated. Still, "Libert, 馮alit, fraternit" and all that.

Posted by: Quest Jan 18 2009, 02:12 PM

The 9/11 Occult New World Order - Shift from Ridiculization to Realization

http://www.youtube.com/watch?fmt=34&v=7Q7502e7euw

Posted by: Sanders Jan 18 2009, 04:42 PM

With what limited experience I have with putting together any kind of video, it makes me aware of what sort of time and software resources are necessary, and makes me wonder who the heck makes these kinds of videos?

Do "they" (whoever made this) not understand that the subtle "spooky" quality combined with the rave soundtrack turns 90-x% of viewers off in the first 10 seconds? Or is that the point. ?

Posted by: Quest Jan 18 2009, 06:19 PM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jan 18 2009, 08:42 PM) *
With what limited experience I have with putting together any kind of video, it makes me aware of what sort of time and software resources are necessary, and makes me wonder who the heck makes these kinds of videos?

Do "they" (whoever made this) not understand that the subtle "spooky" quality combined with the rave soundtrack turns 90-x% of viewers off in the first 10 seconds? Or is that the point. ?


That's a fair point. It hadn't occured to me but it is that type of thing the perps do. But it's also the type of thing the artsy type does or a young person does. I wouldn't mind if you deleted it Sanders aand in fact go ahead. Better to keep this thread's mood on a different plane given the seriousness of the topic. handsdown.gif

Posted by: Sanders Jan 19 2009, 10:08 PM

No reason to delete it, Quest, I see no problem leaving it in here. It's part of the story, really - why has this whole genre sprung up - naturally and spontaneously, or by design? wink.gif

Posted by: dMole Jan 19 2009, 11:51 PM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jan 15 2009, 10:23 PM) *
You're right, I overstated. Still, "Libert, 馮alit, fraternit" and all that.

Good point Sanders. We haven't even mentioned the Jacobins, French (and Russian) Revolutions, or Fabian Socialism/Round Tables yet. Or am I jumping too far ahead?

Posted by: Sanders Jan 20 2009, 03:05 AM

QUOTE (dMole @ Jan 23 2009, 10:51 PM) *
Good point Sanders. We haven't even mentioned the Jacobins, French (and Russian) Revolutions, or Fabian Socialism/Round Tables yet. Or am I jumping too far ahead?


Be my guest - lots I for one could learn about all that. thumbsup.gif

Posted by: dMole Jan 20 2009, 03:56 AM

Well, first here is the "official" version of the French Revolution and the Jacobins' role(s) in it:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1E1-Jacobins.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution

Now a more "CT" version:

Dr Monteith's and David Rivera's stuff is pretty good from what I have read and watched so far.
http://www.modernhistoryproject.org/mhp/EntityDisplay.php?Entity=FrenchRev

Quotes Jim Marrs' Rule by Secrecy, an excellent book in its own right.
http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/frenchrevolution.html

There are alleged to be connections between the French and American Revolutions via Adam Weishaupt and his Order of the Illuminati, but let's skip those and the Bolshevik Revolution for now.

EDIT: On those Fabians:
http://www.modernhistoryproject.org/mhp/EntityDisplay.php?Entity=FabianSoc

Posted by: Sanders Jan 20 2009, 09:38 AM

From dMole's links ... this is a good page I thought -
http://www.modernhistoryproject.org/mhp/ArticleDisplay.php?Article=BrotherDark02&Entity=FabianSoc#Foundations

I liked this quote, it explains it well ... "Everywhere [Inspector Poirot] looked he found conflicting evidence, and he suddenly realized that the murder scene had been staged to confuse him. At that point he paused, surveyed the crime scene, and commented: "There are too many clues."

Posted by: Sanders Jan 20 2009, 03:22 PM

Last year when Georgia invaded Ossetia, I noticed that the Georgian flag and the old flag of Jerusalem (Templar cross of St. George with four little crosses in each quadrant), which had been dug up and recommissioned after disuse during the Soviet era, were the same flag. At the time I happened to be looking at other flags and family crests, and reading an online book titled "http://www.tribwatch.com/ladon.htm". The "Rose" in this case is the Roseline, cleverly alluded to in the name Roslin (as in Roslin Castle) which the Templars apparently built in Scotland along with their pals the Sinclair family. Sinclair is an alteration of St. Clair as in the "Treaty of St. Clair sur Epte" of 911 (911 - !!!???), which granted Normandy to Rollo and his invading Vikings, and Rollo's descendents took the name St. Clair. One of them, William the Conqueror, took over England in 1066 (if you aren't familiar with this era in history), a very important event to say the least. Anyway, the Ladon-Gog book is, while difficult reading, fascinating, and among other things delves into the origins of various family crests and flags, and connections related to this elusive "rose-line".

One symbol that crops up alot when you are looking at families connected with the Templars is the cross of St. George (red and white theme), as well as a whole plethora of red and white crests featuring checks, chevrons, crosses, bars, etc. But there is another compimentary class of crests in a blue and white theme, some of them near duplicates of red-white themed crests. A good example would be the Hohen and Cohen crests, the former featuring red and white checks, the later blue and white checks - otherwise identical. The author of Ladon-Gog traces this blue and white configuration back through a Byzantine princess named Melissena and ultimately to her grandfather, Michael I Rangabe, who was the Holy Emperor of Byzantium for a short time in the 9th century.

Here is something I put together that shows some of these (and others - I'll comment on their significance and how they are all connected.)



In the bottom row you'll find Melusine. Melissena (a real person) is immortalised in a legend about a half-woman half-sea-serpent named Melusine, who wins the heart of a French noble and marries him. This is generally a Count of Lusignan, or Raymond de Vere, and first enters the literary history in the Roman de Melusine written in 1393 by Jean d'Arras. From a site about the Vere family (very wealthy, very influencial in Britain with roots in France):

"The story is a mix of fiction and fact, commissioned by the Duke de Berry, a French noble who was brother to King Charles V, and uncle of King Charles VI. It was meant to be a family history and to uphold the proprietary claims to Lusignan and Anjou. In this story Melusine's mother was a Presine fairy who charmed Elinas, the king of Scotland. The result was their daughter Melusine. Half fairy and half princess, Melusine wandered over to the Continent and eventually met up with Rainfroi/Raymond in the forests Anjou. They met while he was out boar hunting. Overcome with her beauty, he took her hand in marriage, and many adventures ensued..."

I note that her tail is described as being grey, blue and white. She is the mermaid on the Starbucks logo, and I laugh when I observe the logo changing over time - in its present form the resemblence to the mythical Melusine is almost impossible to catch (if you didn't know). In earlier versions it is quite obvious. Starbucks chairman Howard Shultz is a Zionist. There was an incriminating letter alleged to have been written by him that made the rounds on the web recently, that was a hoax (more disinfo-mind-f&*k stuff?), but, he did win the "Israel 50th Anniversary Tribute Award". Anyway, the Starbucks logo is Melusine.

To follow what I'm gonna be talking about now, here's another thing I put together - I recommend opening up windows for the blue and white crest image and this family-tree image, while reading. Otherwise, its just too hard to follow.



BTW red denotes Eastern blood, blue represents Viking/Goth blood, purple - a mix. (Roughly speaking.)

There is very little written that I could find about Melissena's grandfather Michael Rangabe, but Ladon-Gog author John claims he has found evidence linking him to the Kagans of Khazaria (Kagan meant King - it also happens to be the name of the family which founded of the neoconservative movement). His wife Procopia might also have had some Khazar blood in her, and definitely some from the Mamikonids, longtime rulers of Armenia. Poking around the genealogies of some of these families of Byzantine Emperors of that period, which ushered in a golden age in the east, I found many Armenian and Khazar pedigrees. This is a good site for anyone who enjoys tracing families btw. http://fabpedigree.com/

Maybe you are guessing where this is going, so I'll spell out what you may have guessed, and try to explain that that's not really where I'm headed. (Does that make any sense!??) All through this thread I keep alluding to two ancient branches - I'm not sure if they should actually be considered blood-lines of royalty, or just cultural branches (the "culture" in question being a "conquering" culture) - probably a mix of the two is a good way to think of it, even royal blood-lines are not linear, and when they are broken a family of the identical ruling culture usually takes its place.

I described these branches as "Egyptian" and "Gogi" - the Gogi branch pooling around the Black Sea, and the Egyptian branch leading from Egypt to both Greece and the Levant (Israel/Phoenicia). The bible talks about a migration of Isralites from Egypt to the Levant, and Greek myth describes another migration - represented by the brothers Cadmus and Phoenix. Both landed in Phoenica from Egypt, Cadmus continuing on to Greece where he founded Thebes (note that there was a city in Egypt called Thebes as well). For the record, the Phoenicians almost certainly didn't derive simply from Egypt since there is a direct continuum between Sumer-Akkad-Phoenicia - a combination of Egyptian and Mesopotamian influences probably produced the Phoenicians. Also for the record, the Greek myths almost certainly didn't describe actual people, but the migrations/battles/alliances of groups. Both of these "branches" would have origins in Sumer, although it should be obvious that the "Gogi" peoples who occupied the Black Sea region in ancient times didn't just walk there from Sumer, but represented a mix of peoples from Asia north of there and Mesopotamia to the south. Ancient burial sites confirm this somewhat. The question is, who were those peoples, associated with Apollo and Artemis in the Greek myths, who lost to the Greeks at the battle of Troy, who populated Scythia just north of the Black and Caspian seas, a land which would later become Khazaria, and who provided the stock of the Vikings and the Goths who would conquer Rome and Europe?

I contend that they were, to some large degree, Hebrew, though I might have a slightly squewed impression of what "Hebrew" means. In biblical terms Hebrews were people descended from Eber, a great-great (X-n) grandson of Shem, one of the three sons of Noah. We know that the vast majority of Jews in Israel and Europe are descended from Khazars, who are thought (in biblical terms) to be descendents of Japheth, another of Noah's sons. Try and tell a Jew who's anscestors lived in Poland, or Germany, or anywhere else in Eastern Europe ... that they aren't Hebrew (!). My point is they are as Hebrew as many of the peoples which populated ancient Armenia, or the Caucasus, or Scythia, forget about who came from Shem and who came from Japheth. Among the sons of the Egyptian princess Scota by a Scythian king (the Melisians) who invaded Ireland over two thousand years ago, one was named Heber - usually only three of these sons are mentioned. Of the three tribes listed as the Black Sea ancestors of the Vikings, one is Erul. The "Hebrew" connection might not be evident at first, but the name evokes Heracles, a Greek version of Samson - also, another VIking ancestral tribe was the Vanir, from Lake Van in Armenia. Then there's Tacitus. who describes 3 tribes as the descendents of the Germanic "Manus" (the anscestor of man), one of which is Herminones. Why always three? Three Viking ancestor tribes, three sons of Scota, three sons of Noah, three descendents of Mani ... but put that aside and ... wait a minute, we can all see the connection in the name "Eber", but Herminones doesn't begin to resemble "Hebrew". No, it doesn't, it resembles Hermes.

From John, author of Ladon-Gog:

"Update June 2006 -- I'm much "smarter" now to the illustrations set forth by the myth wizards. Knowing now that "Aphrodite" was code for "Abiru," and that Hermes was code for Armenia, I think the secret meaning of the two snakes (of the caduceus) is a Hebrew-Aryan mix. Only one of the two snakes was depicted as male, logically (I don't know which yet), and the idea of a man being able to turn into a woman (or vice versa) had to do with the utter fusing of the Hebrews with Aryans..."

There's alot in that, folks. I already went into the significance of Mt. Hermon a little bit earlier in the thread
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?s=&showtopic=15953&view=findpost&p=10762794

I'll just add that "John" and I differ a bit in that I percieve Herme's staff of Caduceus as representing the Egyptian and Gogi branches mixing in the Greek theatre and in Armenia, while he perceives it as representing a mix of Arian and Hebrew. In a way, the two perspectives are kinda the same. The salient point here which brings me back to the line of questioning I started all this with, is that Hermes evokes the name Armenia, which John (Ladon-Gog author) also poinsts out ... in fact, Cadmus' wife was named Harmonia - an even closer match - and that in light of the mixing of the two branches, Armenia, which lied between the Black Sea region and the Levant, was a melting pot, a buffer zone - which is why I think Armenia/Harmonia became the basis of our word for peaceful co-existence ... Harmony (!!!). Since figuring this out I've never been able to walk into a doctors office without looking with amazement at the staff of Caduceus, entwined by two snakes, on the door.



(The dragon represented both royalty and life-giving powers way back then, which is why you find dragons and snakes all over the place in Greek and medieval myths, and why the medical profession adopted the staff of Caduceus.)

Don't forget folks, that the coat of arms of the City of London is the cross of St. George (the Templar flag) flanked by two dragons.



So, hopefully I've rambled on enough that you can GET that the "royalty" of our world, and I mean that in a corporate sense as well as a political sense, has its roots in a merging of Hebrew and Aryan (Ladon-God "John's way of describing it), Egyptian and Gogi (the rulers of Europe a thousand years ago were mostly Gogi-descended, hence the high-importance placed on the Egyptian side and hence the pyramid found in places like the dollar bill and the Israeli Supreme Court, or the placement of Egyptian Obelisk "penises" in Washington DC and the City of London), East and West, heck, call it whatever you like, any word you want to make up is probably better than the squewed vernacular which has been played with intentionally to prevent people from talking intelligently about any of this.

Recently Joe Biden said, unapologetically, "I'm a Zionist - you don't have to be Jewish to be a Zionist". Why!?? Joe Biden doesn't appear to me to be one of those "have to rebuild the Temple of Solomon so that the Messiah can come back and save the righteous while destroying the world" rapture-believing nut-jobs. (!!!???) Think about it. It makes no sense, he's not saying "I have to support Israel because AIPAC is breathing down my neck 24-7". He's saying, I'm not a nut, I'm not Jewish, and I'm a Zionist.

The "why" is, people like Biden are members of the elite culture - they don't think like you and I. Support of Israel is implicit. I am trying to explain why - maybe I can, maybe I can't. Anyway, this mixing area between "Aryan and Hebrew", "Egyptian and Gogi", "East and West" is critical, and is why Melissena was immortalized in myth - she was the first (excepting the possible but improbable mixing between Mary of Magdalene and the Merovingians, and the less improbable mixing of the Makhir family with Frank nobility) marriage linking East and West. Not much is known about her husband Inger, but he was a Viking - Varangian Rus to be exact, like the people who ruled Russia from Kiev from about the same period.

That brings me to Margaret Queen of Scotland, but before I dive into that I need to note that there is another real-life candidate for the mythical Melusine. Melisende, the daughter of the Crusader and king of Jerusalem Baldwin II, might not be as likely a candidate as the Rangabe Melissena, but she also represents a merging of East and West, in fact, her mother was Moraphia of ARMENIA. I about fell off my chair when I figured out that among her ancestors was the house of Bagratun. Here's a quote from Saakashvili, the current president of Georgia:

溺y grandmother was also a Bagrationi. I say it for people, who want to restore the monarchy. It would be even better because we would avoid the need for elections and would decide everything based on family traditions, - To Georgian reporters in Finland, October 12, 2007.

That family has been running Georgia for a millenium - excepting the Soviet period. Armenia I don't know much about, but I know it was as volitile as it was large - Jewish, Christian and Gnostic (Manichaean & Paulician) forces collided there like in no other place. Furthermore, the "lost" tribes of Israel most likely passed through Armenia in their eventual migration into the Caucasus and Scythia. Here's an article about Jews in Armenia I thought was good - gives some detailed information about the transportation of Jews from Israel into that area...
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=1787&letter=A

And even Wikipedia admits that the Jewish community in Georgia is one of the oldest in the world:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Georgia_(country)

So when you read on sites like WhatReallyHappened (vehemently anti-Zionist) that Ashkenazi Jews (descended from Khazars) have no blood connection to Israel, he is only revealing half of the story. In fact, Scythia (later Khazaria) is where the Israelites went. Just to muck up your head some more, I'll point out that the Israelites and the Jews weren't exactly the same people - the Israelites lived in the north - they were pagan (particularly the northernmost tribes like Dan and Naphtali), and, according to the Bible, were punished for their pagan ways by being carried off. People think of the Israelites being relocated to Babylon, but many apparently found their way into Armenia, the Caucasus, and Scythia. The word Judaism of course derives from Judah, which was separate and in the south. People identify "Hebrew" with Judaism, but in fact they should be thought of as distinct from one another IMO (Jews being a religious sect within the Hebrew lineage as were the Kabbalist ancestors of the Templars)! Yes, it's messy and confusing, and that's my point. I read that the oldest Jewish communities in Georgia and the Ashkenazi communities there are quite different in their traditions, suggesting different waves of migration.

... Later, in around the 9th century (I think), Khazaria converted en-masse to Judaism, and within a century or two after that the kingdom collapsed. I won't go into how or why it collapsed, because I honestly don't know and can't get a straight answer from sources on the web .... but coinciding with its collapse, there was a migration from Khazaria by Kabar (a sect of Khazars) and Magyar tribes led by princes known as the Arpads (who claimed decendency from Attila the Hun) into Hungary. The "Hun" in Hungary comes from these "Huns" of course. They ruled the roost for a time, then there was a short period when Italians ran Hungary, then the "Arpads" took back the throne - and this is (exactly) when the English hier Edward, who had been hiding in in Kiev, moves to Hungary, and has a daughter Margaret. When she is about 12 the Danes who took over England under Canute and ruled for a time finally leave, and Edward, Margaret, her mother Agatha, George the son of the Hungarian king Andrew, George's son Maurice (if he was born by then?) and Bartholemew - also of uncertain royal Hungarian blood , all moved from Budhapest to Britain ... Margaret then married Malcom III of Scotland, and her son became the next king of Scotland while her daughter Matilda married king Henry I. I find it incredibly interesting that the Hungarian royals central to this story are Andrew and George, and that the flags of England and Scotland, configured around this period, are based on the crosses of St. Andrew and St. George - and that Margaret's Hungarian (Khazar/Hun) lineage is never talked about. And, I literally fell off my chair when I saw Michael Rangabe's white cross on blue hovering over St. Margaret's head on a stained glass window in the church in Edinburgh bearing her name.

And call it a coincidence ....... but the original leader of the Zionist movement, Theodor Hertzl, was born in Budhapest. blink.gif

Another important figure is Andrew's niece, Sophia. Another big East-West marriage event ... in fact, she married twice. One marriage produced the Wittelsbachs, who ran Bavaria for a period, and if you look at the family crest and the flag of Bavaria you can see that they are essentially the same - blue and white diamonds. There were two Wittelsbach Holy Roman Emperors. Albert "the Bear", also descended from Sophia, was another big figure. I think (I'm struggling to remember and too lazy to look it up) he unified the Germanic lands in the area around Brandenburg.

I listed a line of Arpad (Hungarian) rulers starting with Sophia's brother Geza I which lead to a Johanna von Bayern-Staubing. I don't know who this Johanna is, and I don't think it's so important. I included this lineage because it resembles so many others, which show how the Arpad (Hun) rulers of Hungary spread from there first into Bohemia and then Bavaria. Bavaria BTW is written in German as Bayern. Looks like Bayer (aspirin, Nazi gas makers). Or Bauer - the original family name of the Rothschilds. I included the Bayer family crest in my jpeg - again, blue and white theme.

Bauer, Bayer, Bayern, all these names derive from the same meaning and suggest common roots ... the Scottish branch of the Bauer family is Bower - as in, Bow and Arrow. That's why the Rothshild bank logo sports 5 arrows in a bundle. It's a Hun fable - the mother tells her 5 warring sons that one arrow can easily be snapped, but 5 in a bundle can never be broken. The original 5 famous Rothschild (Bauer) sons (Nathan, Karl, Salomon, James, Amshel) are referred to to this day as the "5 arrows". Simply put (actually it's not so simple, it's actually a Mongol legend, but before there were Mongol's - and the Huns and Mongols most likely shared roots ...it's too complicated, you get my drift, so never mind) it's a "Hun" legend. Or call them Kazars if you like. Whatever, this was a definite migration from Khazaria through Hungary to Bavaria, resulting in a flurry of "Gnostic" activity in that area in the later middle ages - for one, the Rosicrucians officially eminated from the area - the (real) "Illuminati" were busted there too.

So how do these other blue and white crested families fit into this? The Leslie clan are very wealthy and influential in Scotland - they descend from Bartholomew, of uncertain pedigree [see post below re: uncertain connection to Pollak clan] who accompanied Margaret to Scotland. The Drummonds are descended from king Andrew of Hungary, they are incredibly wealthy and their bank was absorbed into the Royal Bank of Scotland. They are related to the British royal family. I already mentioned that Cohen derives from Kagan. The Bruces are legendary, Robert the Bruce is one of the main characters in Mel Gibson's flawed but fun "Braveheart" ... they came from France, and the first Bruce (actually Brusse) of note descends from Rognvald, who married the sister of Yaroslav, who sheltered Margaret's father Edward in Kiev before he moved to Hungary, AND is descended from Melissena to boot. Don't miss on that genealogy jpeg that the Brusses married in with the St Clair/Sinclair family a mere two generations after Rognvald Brusse's marraige to Yaroslav's sister (!). I included the Bouillon crest amoung the blue & white-themed crests because it's the same as the cross used by Michael Rangabe, only with red instead of blue. Geoffrey de Bouillon was the leader of the 1st crusade, along with his brothers Baldwin and Eustace (shown on genealogy tree). The three-tipped "fleur-de-lis" looking thing at the ends of the arms of the cross on both the Rangabe and Bouillon crests represent the 12 houses of the zodiac, grouped into 4 houses of 3 which apparently represent the elements or the seasons. The crest of Languedoc/Toulouse (Cathar country) used a cross which also shows this pagan grouping of 12 into 4 groups of three.

I'm getting tired - I can't tell if I've successfully made my case or not. Feedback??? Hopefully I can add some tidbits that strenthen the connections later as I remember them.

Posted by: Sanders Jan 21 2009, 05:40 AM

I didn't include Bartholomew in my little family tree above, mainly because I could find nothing about his ancestry. I've heard him referred to as Bartholomew Ladislav, or Bartholomew de Leslie. He accompanied princess Margaret and her entourage from Hungary to Scotland, and his anscestors in Scotland are known as the Leslie clan. I did include the Leslie crest, as it follows the Blue and White theme, (even though I haven't seen how this family relates to Melissena).

I just stumbled on to this - a genealogy site I use which shows the Pollak family as being possible anscestors of Bartholomew. http://fabpedigree.com/s068/f801159.htm

This alleged Pollak connection isn't concrete, but I still about fell off my chair.

I looked in to this Pollak family once, and they are interesting for the fact that their family crest features a boar.
http://www.houseofnames.com/fc.asp?sId=&s=pollak

The Pollak boar is doubly interesting, bacause it has an arrow in it's neck - a possible reference to the "Calydonian Boar Hunt" of Greek legend. The Vere family, mentioned in some versions of the Melusine myth, also features a boar - a blue one as I showed. Here's the Vere crest:
http://www.houseofnames.com/fc.asp?sId=&s=vere

The boar indicates Black Sea region (Gogi) roots, these peoples are usually represented in Greek myths by association with either Apollo or Artemis, and the story of the Calydonian Boar Hunt is one such example. Ladon-Gog author connects the Pollak line to the Lugii, a peoples that populated a part of Germania, Pollak apparently derives from Po-Lug, or head of Lug. Interestingly there was also a Lugii peoples who settled in northern Scotland. There is even an early woodcut of Andrew, patron saint of Scotland, with a big boar that I found.
http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/7318/standrew013vb4.jpg

(The Bush family crest also features the boar - three of them in fact.)

This is all in my "dragon" thread, here's a post about the Pollak/Vere/Lugii connection
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index.php?s=&showtopic=13644&view=findpost&p=10749240

What I didn't know at the time was that Bartholomew de Leslie was possibly descended from the Pollak line.

(Not a spectacular find, but it adds one piece.)

Posted by: Sanders Jan 21 2009, 11:04 PM

The Drummond and Leslie clans might be unfamiliar to many.

Leslie, from Wikipedia:

QUOTE
The family name comes from the Leslie lands of Aberdeenshire and was to become famous in Germany, Poland, France and Russia. A Hungarian (or more likely by onomastics and typical of the times as well as later Leslie history, a Kievan of Varangian origins) nobleman, named Bartholomew arrived in the retinue of Agatha, wife of Edward the Exile. Bartholomew became Chamberlain to Saint Margaret of Scotland. Bartholomew later married Malcolm III sister, Princess Beatrix of Scotland. His brother inlaw Malcolm III made him Governor of Edinburgh Castle.No trace can be found in the Ragman Rolls of any members of the Leslie family-despite their strong connection to a number of claimants to the Scots crown. ...The family sided with Robert the Bruce against firstly The Comyn in the Buchan and secondly Edward I and as a result were awarded large tracts of Aberdeenshire.


Paul McCartney married Heather Mills at one of the many Leslie estates, this one in Ireland:



Another in Scotland:



The grandeur of the Leslie castles pale by comparison to those of the Drummonds, direct decendents of the royal Hungarian Arpad family -



The Drummonds owned Drummond bank, which was absorbed into the Royal Bank of Scotland. Wikipedia:

QUOTE
Drummonds (motto: Prius Mori Quam Fidem Fallere) is an English private banking house founded in 1717 by goldsmith Andrew Drummond (16881769). The bank was owned by the Drummond family until January 1924, when it was taken over by The Royal Bank of Scotland...

The bank held accounts for King George III, and other members of the royal family including the Queen Mother. Other famous clients included Alexander Pope, Robert Adam and James Adam, Lancelot 鼎apability Brown, Josiah Wedgwood and Thomas Gainsborough.


Two Drummonds, John and Henry, were in charge of doling out English money for the hire of German mercinaries during the Revolutionary War in America - much of which wound up under the control of Mayer Amschell Rothschild (Bauer), who used it to finance his family's banking empire.

Henry Drummond Jr. was a co-founder of the Catholic Apostle Church, which, along with its other co-founder Edward Irving, were at the center of the formulation of the doctrine of the Rapture. Drummond was one of the church's 12 apostles:
http://www.answers.com/topic/catholic-apostolic-church

QUOTE
This millennialist denomination derived from meetings held from 1826 at Albury Park, the Surrey home of the London banker and Tory politician Henry Drummond (1786-1860). Among those attending was Edward Irving, minister of Regent Square Scottish Church, London, then at the peak of his wayward genius. Excluded from Regent Square in 1832, Irving established a congregation in Newman Street. This became the first Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. Liberally supported by Drummond, the new body developed a hierarchy of apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastors... (British History @ Answers.com)

...[a] religious community originating in England c.1831 and extending later to Germany and the United States (1848). It was founded under the influence of Edward Irving; its members are sometimes called Irvingites. Because of their prophetic gifts, 12 apostles (including Henry Drummond) were in 1835 set aside as officers. They were expected to survive until the Second Coming of Jesus, but the last of them died in 1901. (Columbia Encyclopedia)


Another person who figured prominently in the formulation of the rapture doctrine was Charles Taze Russell, founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses. The original Russells followed William the Conqueror from Normandy (Roussel) to England, where the family was granted lands in Dorset (by William) for distinguished service at the battle of Hastings.
http://www.houseofnames.com/fc.asp?sId=&s=russell

As I mentioned earlier, another prominant Russell, (William H. Russell) co-founded Skull and Bones at Yale.

I'm not sure what it all means ... but the connections are mind-boggling.

Posted by: albertchampion Jan 22 2009, 12:37 AM

i am dumbstruck by your interest in genealogy. the long arms of the past continue to be involved in the present and the future. you have discovered a chord of "controller" genealogy that has relevance. that was the reason for debrett's and all the other "stud" books. in a very funny sense, we seem to have forgotten the notion of morganatic marriages and how human beings' genetic strains have been/are as recorded as thoroughbred horses, dogs.

david ickes might say that what you are relating are the "lizard" chronicles. i wouldn't argue with him.

carroll quickley discussed some of these relationships in his book THE ANGLO AMERICAN ESTABLISHMENT. a recounting of the conspiratorial nature of life on this planet that goes so ignored that i think one must be compelled to conclude that there is what i consider a contra-historical movement governing the society's perceptions of the past.

think of "opium" as an aspect of the amerikan invasion of vietnam for instance. stanley karnow, regarded as one of the most important recorders of that invasion, never mentions opium. recently, two other books were published concerning that invasion. one is a third party record entitled LESSONS IN DISASTER: MCGEORGE BUNDY AND THE PATH TO WAR IN VIETNAM. opium goes unmentioned. and the NGO FAMILY goes unexamined.

similarly in rufus phillip's first hand memoir WHY VIETNAM MATTERS.

some years ago, in lyndon larouche's EXECUTIVE INTELLIGENCE REVIEW there was a history of the house of saxe-coburg-gotha[aka windsor] and the house of orange. and how deeply these royal family's were allied to germany's national socialist movement/government. many don't think highly of larouche. but over the years, i have noticed that he gets it more accurately than his detractors.

Posted by: Sanders Jan 22 2009, 02:42 AM

QUOTE (albertchampion @ Jan 25 2009, 11:37 PM) *
david ickes might say that what you are relating are the "lizard" chronicles. i wouldn't argue with him.


Well, even though I think he is off his rocker with his "lizard" stuff, there is a sort of basis for it, in the sense that the symbol of the dragon has been associated with royalty for millenia.

The opium angle of Vietnam had escaped me - very interesting indeed. You know, the Russells made a lot of money in China selling the stuff ... (FDR's grandfather Warren Delano worked for them).

I'll have to read what Larouche has published on the Windsors, I've never looked in to that.

Posted by: lunk Jan 22 2009, 02:08 PM


same structure


Notice any similarity?

How long before DNA was discovered,
was this symbol for medicine, designed?

Two spiraled snakes ~ double helix

I don't think this can be a coincidence.

imo, lunk

Posted by: dMole Jan 22 2009, 07:20 PM

Sweet DNA image lunk! I've seen that poster before, I think at university.

More links on DNA and chemical modeling:

http://personal.cscs.ch/~mvalle/ChemViz/representations/index.html

http://personal.cscs.ch/~mvalle/ChemViz/representations/color.html

http://www.freebase.com/view/en/dna

DNA Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/index.html?curid=7955

EDIT: I've been going to suggest that Sanders do an outline for all this "Dragon Thread" business for some time now, but much like "folded," intertwined strands of DNA, how would one organize it? Where to start, or end? I concluded that these shadowy "strands" don't lend themselves to linear or modular outlines FWIW... What is this Sanders, going on 2 years of research into this now?

Posted by: lunk Jan 22 2009, 09:00 PM

In-line breeding, maintains the traits,
but weakens the lines,
this seemed to have happened with
the commercial chicken stocks.

There are fewer "strains" of layers and meat birds
available for the farmer today then just a few years ago.

It looks like selective breeding has been
going on with humans, by humans, for along time.

We know that the ancient Greeks were talking about atoms,
Was there knowledge of DNA back then too?

After all, a scion is a graft (or clone) from a tree.
(sounds like sion, a variant of Zion)

ion, lunk

Posted by: Sanders Jan 23 2009, 12:18 AM

QUOTE (lunk @ Jan 26 2009, 07:00 PM) *
<DNA images> Notice any similarity? ... I don't think this can be a coincidence...

After all, a scion is a graft (or clone) from a tree.
(sounds like sion, a variant of Zion)

Wow. It's freakier than that, because I think it's really the other way around, Zion is a variant of Sion (!). Mt. Sion is another name for Mt. Hermon - same derivative as Hermes - and the Caduceus is of course the Staff of Hermes. I don't know - to imagine that the ancient rulers of Greece understood the structure the DNA is ... hard to fathom.

QUOTE (dMole @ Jan 26 2009, 06:20 PM) *
Where to start, or end? I concluded that these shadowy "strands" don't lend themselves to linear or modular outlines FWIW... What is this Sanders, going on 2 years of research into this now?


Off and on. Where to start is easy - you start with the myth of Cadmus, and his wife Harmonia, and the dragon he slew in Greece, and the Spartans which grew from the teeth he planted in the ground, and then link Harmonia's name to Hermes and Armenia, and why, and go from there, backwards and forwards. I'll bet if someone really understood all this and understood all of the Greek Myths, the story has already been told. Unfotunately it's been locked up in that "coded" form from general humanity.

There's a whole can of worms regarding the Hohens of Flanders and Germany, Margraves of Brandenburg, the Wettins & Wittelsbachs, Dukes of Babenberg (who, according to Wikipedia were descended from Byzantine emperors and all took Greek wives!!!), basically the way various houses fought and married in and around Bavaria (roughly during the crusading era), which, apparently someone in "the know" thought would be fun to base a children's cartoon on. 'The Flinstones' was born - Fred Flinstone represents http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_I,_Holy_Roman_Emperor it seems, Fred and Wilma the Hohens of Flanders (hence Flinstone?), Betty and Barney the houses of Witten and Brunswick, Bambam the Dukes of Babenberg (of Bamberg)???.... I think I got all that right. dunno.gif The family crests and the colors of the costumes in the cartoon all seem to match. This is another 'Ladon-Gog' discovery, not mine. (He talks about it in little bits in various chapters of his book, some of it is discussed at the end of part I here - http://www.tribwatch.com/SingleFile.htm .)

The problem is, I don't feel like I really understand all this stuff. It's too complicated, and I'm too weak on the fine points of Greek and medieval history - not to mention that the important parts seem to have been intentionally concealed. BUT, the discovery I mentioned above, that members of two very well connected elite families - the Russells and the Drummonds - were both involved in the formulation of the Rapture doctrine, tells me what I've long suspected, that the real reason for the founding of Israel was never the creation of a homeland for the Jews. Heaven knows, if the Crusading Knights felt common cause with the Jews of Palestine, they wouldn't have slaughtered them all when they took Jerusalem. The unfortunate Jews there didn't just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, survivors retreated to their synagogues where they were burned alive. Yet I can see how a Gnostic/pagan-oriented elite, evolved from ancient roots which struggled for power with the Church of Rome, is connected at the hip to (vaguely defined) Hebrew peoples who's influence from Egypt to Scythia in ancient times cannot be denied (I forgot to mention earlier that Iberia - both the Caucasus kingdom and the Spanish peninsula, Habiru - of Egypt, some other "Eber" derived names, and 'Hebrew' are likely all of shared origin) ... and, I can see all the connections between the people who run the United States (and especially the architects of the SYSTEM by which it is ruled) and pirates, drug-runners, Freemasons and Templar bankers ... but I really don't know the real reason why dominance of the Holy Land is so important to these people. Is it so obvious that I can't see it??

If someone out there knows, blurt it out! I'd love to know!

Posted by: lunk Jan 23 2009, 01:25 AM

Sanders, have you checked out Alan Watt?

http://209.85.122.85/10705/189/0/p1001814/MEHCANO_mix_Alan_Watt.mp3

Your research is validating much of his story, for me.

He says that there needed to be an opposition in the Middle East,
and this was planned long before, anything that happened in the last millennium, and perhaps, before that.

I got a whole lot of these over at http://s13.zetaboards.com/artistsfor911truth/topic/6534184/2/#new.

There's a link to his site in my sig there.

imo, lunk

Posted by: albertchampion Jan 23 2009, 03:06 AM

or how about this from lundberg on relationships. lizard relationships?

http://www.soilandhealth.org/03sov/0303critic/030304lberg/030304ch8.html

Posted by: albertchampion Jan 23 2009, 03:23 AM

more evidence of a lizard race infesting this planet.

some days ago, i referred you to this pic of george walker bush leaving a lectern before his departure from eating mice. nyt, page a14 national edition, tuesday 13/01/09.

look at that pic very closely. observe the shoulders. the arms. the hands.

now, go to 18/01/09 nyt magazine. cover OBAMA'S PEOPLE. PHOTGRAPHS BY NADAV KANDER.

here are the most striking photos of LIZARDS.....

ROBERT M GATES, PAGE 95

JIM MESSINA, PAGE 98

KEN SALAZAR, PAGE 94

GREG CRAIG, PAGE 89

GEN JAMES JONES, PAGE 82

LARRY SUMMERS, PAGE 56

and last but not least, RAHM EMANUEL, PAGE 54

Posted by: Sanders Jan 23 2009, 04:14 AM

QUOTE (lunk @ Jan 26 2009, 11:25 PM) *
Sanders, have you checked out Alan Watt?


Yeah, even though http://www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com/ makes me go a little cross-eyed, it looks like a porthole to lots of good information. I also appreciate that he focuses on the extent to which we are manipulated, enchouraging people to wise up.

@A.C., wow, that Lundberg piece was a great read!!! Incredible stuff toward the end, the inside scoop on A.P.Giannini (B of A) going up against Morgan in the early part of the century - I want to read his whole book. handsdown.gif

As for the reptilian thing in a non-allegorical sense, down that path I cannot follow.

Posted by: dMole Jan 23 2009, 04:35 AM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jan 20 2009, 12:22 PM) *
Since figuring this out I've never been able to walk into a doctors office without looking with amazement at the staff of Caduceus, entwined by two snakes, on the door.



(The dragon represented both royalty and life-giving powers way back then, which is why you find dragons and snakes all over the place in Greek and medieval myths, and why the medical profession adopted the staff of Caduceus.)

The "classical" Hippocratic Oath sworn by doctors is quite interesting in this context.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/doctors/oath_classical.html

Hippocratic Oath佑lassical Version

I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfil according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:

To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of mine, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art - if they desire to learn it - without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken an oath according to the medical law, but no one else.

I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.

I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.

I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.

Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice, of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons, be they free or slaves.

What I may see or hear in the course of the treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep to myself, holding such things shameful to be spoken about.

If I fulfil this oath and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honored with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot.

Translation from the Greek by Ludwig Edelstein. From The Hippocratic Oath: Text, Translation, and Interpretation, by Ludwig Edelstein. Baltimore: Johns Hopkins Press, 1943.

----------------------------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath

Posted by: Sanders Jan 23 2009, 04:58 AM

An oath to not give out deadly drugs or take up the knife!??? laughing1.gif



(Very interesting.)

Posted by: lunk Jan 23 2009, 07:57 AM

What if one discovers that their sworn oath
is opposed to their own values?
They either have to break their oath,
or go against their own values.

I had to take an oath once,
before I was old enough to understand,
what they were all about.
Now, I'm stuck guarding some queen,
I know nothing about.
Boy Scout (retired)

imo, lunk

Posted by: Timothy Osman Jan 24 2009, 08:38 PM

QUOTE
I had to take an oath once,
before I was old enough to understand,
what they were all about.
Now, I'm stuck guarding some queen,
I know nothing about.
Boy Scout (retired)


I remember being punished at school for refusing to sing either the lords prayer or God save the Queen. It pays to be a prick of a kid. I used to sing a Scott Bonner lawn mower jingle instead. Scott Bonner who art in heaven hallowed be thy name, until I got a bit loud. rolleyes.gif

Oh and never a Boy Scout, Tim.

Posted by: Timothy Osman Jan 25 2009, 09:15 PM

Back on topic and back onto these Amalekites. It seems to me that the cult of Zionism can call anyone they want Amalek and this is what they do. It explains to me the total lack of compassion shown by Zionist soldiers because they have been indoctrinated in the ways of the cult which uses the Torah for it's own ends contrary to the best interests of the average Jewish person.

They used the term Amalek to describe Saddam and now Achmydinnerjacket of Iran and anyone else who is seen against the cult.

QUOTE
The command to wipe out Amalek is explained in the Torah (Deut. 25:17-19) as their punishment for launching an unfair attack on the helpless Israelites:

Remember what Amalek did to you on your journey, after you left Egypt揺ow, undeterred by fear of G-d, he surprised you on the march, when you were famished and weary, and cut down all the stragglers in your rear. Therefore, when the Lord your G-d grants you safety from all your enemies around you, in the land that the Lord your G-d is giving you as a hereditary portion, you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven. Do not forget!


The general command to 澱lot out the memory of Amalek was presented in greater detail by the prophet Samuel in his demand of Saul: 適ill alike men and women, infants and sucklings, oxen and sheep, camels and asses (I Sam. 15:3). The call for such severe punishment is indeed given a reason in the Torah, yet even the most egregious sin itself cannot invalidate the moral principle according to which 殿 person shall be put to death only for his own crime (Deut. 24:16). Indeed, the Gemara (Yoma 22b) puts into Saul痴 mouth an argument about the justice in what he was told to do: 典he people may have sinned, but how have the animals sinned? And if the older have sinned, how have the younger sinned? Little wonder that commentators and thinkers throughout the generations have felt a need to understand why the punishment of Amalek should be exacted from those who were not yet born when the sin for which the punishment was decreed was committed.


According to the same document Jews are taught not to be vengeful but to get on the grog to the point where everyone looks the same and they forget about the Torah.

QUOTE
Indeed, Solomon taught us a fine virtue (的f your enemy is hungry give him bread to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink ( Prov. 25:21): not to be vengeful towards our enemies, rather to treat them well when they are at hand. Therefore the Torah had to warn us about Amalek in numerous places, for without the Torah痴 words of caution, even though Amalek did Israel wrong, it would be a virtue not to remember their ancient hostility but only to treat them well. Therefore the Torah admonishes us: Do not treat Amalek thus; these people do not show mercy, for the Throne of the Blessed One is not complete. Therefore the Sages refused to write a scroll [ordering the Jews to kill their enemies in Persia], saying, 的t will lead to resentment towards us on the part of other nations, for they will consider us to have bad qualities, being vengeful and harboring hatred( Megillah 7a). For it is not a good quality to take vengeance on one痴 enemies; quite the contrary, virtue and intelligence would dictate that they be treated with mercy, tolerance and compassion, showing the difference between Mordechai and the wicked Haman. Only the Divine Spirit instructed that they be avenged, for there is no compassion in the seed of Amalek... Therefore, my brothers, learn what is good without harboring hatred, but on the contrary, be good to one痴 enemy. Such behavior well suits human virtue and the bounds of the Torah. This is the glory of Israel, not to harbor hatred; thus our ways will be straight, by nature not being vengeful. Therefore it is said (Megilla 7b), 的t is one痴 duty to drink on Purim until one cannot distinguish between ... so that from much drinking one forgets what the Torah commands and follows the natural virtue; then one will not distinguish between 田ursed Haman and ..., for by nature a person is in no way to take vengeance or curse those who seek one痴 harm.


http://www.biu.ac.il/JH/Parasha/eng/kiteze/kas.html

Aint religion great.

Posted by: lunk Jan 26 2009, 07:44 AM

QUOTE
for there is no compassion in the seed of Amalek...


They sound psychopathic.

Posted by: dMole Jan 27 2009, 01:51 PM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jan 22 2009, 09:18 PM) *
The problem is, I don't feel like I really understand all this stuff. It's too complicated, and I'm too weak on the fine points of Greek and medieval history - not to mention that the important parts seem

... and, I can see all the connections between the people who run the United States (and especially the architects of the SYSTEM by which it is ruled) and pirates, drug-runners, Freemasons and Templar bankers ... but I really don't know the real reason why dominance of the Holy Land is so important to these people. Is it so obvious that I can't see it??

If someone out there knows, blurt it out! I'd love to know!

I think that much of the confusion comes from the Roman habit of "assimilating" the local religions and customs as conquered regions fell to the Roman Empire. Of course much of the pagan belief systems was eventually co-mingled in with the "Holy Roman" church, leading to the inconsistent, confusing "occulted" mess we have today. Very little "history" remains about the Essenes (and opinions vary considerably on who or what "Jesus" was), but I think this would be an important piece of the puzzle that has been missing for centuries/millenia. We have already mentioned that fire at Alexandria somewhere (and that library could have held much missing "history" IMHO).

http://www.bede.org.uk/library.htm

There has clearly been much "romanticized" history regarding the Crusaders, various Knights, etc. (I have since learned that many of the "Knights" were actually strongarm thugs used by the various nobles to keep the serfs in line and to extort taxes/fealty, and the Samurai were essentially the same thing in Japan, leading up to Yakuza today). I expect that the Chinese Dynasties were "enforced" in a similar manner, leading to the Tongs, Triads, and other gangs that we see today.

I don't think we have been told much or very accurate information of the true nature of the Crusades (and I think we may have another one occuring today in the Middle East). Then of course, the Middle East was controlled by Salahudin/the Caliphate and then the Ottoman Turk and Byzantine Empires for centuries. It would appear that the Inquisition wiped out a considerable chunk of "history" (in Europe at least, at about this time frame).

On the "Holy Land" thing, I have read that certain groups believe that the Dome of the Rock Mosque must be destroyed in order to rebuild "the temple" for whatever motivations they have for all that business, and the old Babylon (Iraq) seems to hold unknown significance to the neo-Anglo-American empire... I wonder exactly what was recently looted from Saddam's palaces and museums... This certainly seems consistent with the Bushite behavior of the last 18 years or so. Those oil pipelines and contracts are a "convenient" Hallibortion bonus, too.

Again, Jim Marrs' Rule by Secrecy is an excellent book on this intertwined "early" religion business. I recall Picknett & Prince's The Stargate Conspiracy having some relevant chapters (I believe that O892 has read it since I have, but it was an interesting "pre-millenium" book on how Egypt relates to all this).

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/stargate/stargate07.htm

One of the most interesting things to me is how many sizable portions of human history are just "missing" now from various times and various cultures, going back through all of "known" history.

Posted by: Sanders Jan 27 2009, 02:23 PM

QUOTE (dMole @ Jan 31 2009, 12:51 PM) *
...One of the most interesting things to me is how many sizable portions of human history are just "missing" now from various times and various cultures, going back through all of "known" history.


TELL ME ABOUT IT !!!!


EVERY frikken critical focal-point on which any concrete conclusions about our true identity ultimately hinge, I have found, are missing from the record. There's no controversy about who Charlemagne's children were, there's no controversy about almost any important marriage between the Nobles of that era - EXCEPT - that I get a sense about things and start to form a conclusion and finally hone in on where two blood-lines may or may not meet and - EVERY FRIKKEN TIME - the data is missing or there are 4 or 5 conflicting theories. Every time. Only when it really matters. Who was Redburga??? Genealogically speaking, maybe one of the most important women in history - and we know nothing about her - all we have are a handful of theories, assumptions.

And let me take this opportunity, dMole, to say, it amazes me when we talk about this stuff that you are the same dMole talking aircraft jargon in other forums. Dude, you freak me out sometimes biggrin.gif handsdown.gif

Posted by: dMole Jan 29 2009, 05:42 AM

Back to Iraq/ME, (and it's from the Wiki, but it is consistent with some other sources I've seen elsewhere before):

On Saladin (or perhaps Aladdin of Disney fame- hmmm....):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saladin

"Early life

Saladin or Yūsuf Ṣalāḥ ad-Dīn ibn Ayyūb was born in Tikrit, Iraq. His family was of Kurdish background and ancestry,[3][4] and had originated from the city of Dvin, in Medieval Armenia.[5][6] His father, Najm ad-Dīn Ayyūb, was banished from Tikrit and moved with his family to Mosul, where he met Imād ad-Din Zengi, the Turkish atabeg of Mosul and the founder of the Zengid dynasty, who was leading Muslim forces against the Crusaders in Edessa.[citation needed] In 1139 Imād ad-Din Zengi appointed Najm ad-Din as the commander of his fortress in Baalbek.[7] After the death of Imād ad-Din Zengi in 1146, his son, Nūr ad-Dīn, became the regent of Mosul.[7] Saladin received his name from Nūr ad-Dīn and was sent to Damascus to complete his education.[8][9] Several sources claim that during his studies he was more interested in religion than joining the military.[7] Another factor which may have affected his interest in religion was that during the First Crusade, Jerusalem was taken in a surprise attack by the Christians.[7]

Sultan

[edit] Egypt
Saladin, King of Egypt from a 15th century illuminated manuscript; the globus in his left hand is a European symbol of kingly power.

His career in the military began when his uncle Asad al-Dīn Shīrkūh, or simply named Shirkuh, started training him. Shirkuh was an important military commander under the emir Nūr al-Dīn, who was the son and successor of Zangī. During three military expeditions led by Shīrkūh into Egypt to prevent its falling to the Latin Christian Crusaders who already ruled Jerusalem. Amalric I, the king of Jerusalem; Shāwar, the powerful vizier of the Egyptian Fatimid caliph; and Shīrkūh formed a struggle. After Shīrkūh's death and after ordering Shāwar's assassination, Saladin, in 1169 was appointed both commander of the Syrian troops in Egypt and vizier of the Fatimid caliph there. Saladin was only 31 when he received the position in the military and tried to finish much of his uncle's work. His relatively quick rise to power was due to the fact he had come from Kurdish cultural background and is cited as having many talents including being an effective and efficient military leader. He became from then onwards a Sultan of Egypt and his clear demonstration of being an efficient leader quickly built up his reputation as a great leader. Although he received the title of king, many referred to him as the Sultan of Egypt. The founding of the Ayyubid dynasty and the restoration of Sunni Islam in Egypt are credited to Saladin.[2] He expanded his territory westward in the Maghreb and when his uncle was sent up the Nile to pacify some resistance of the former Fatimid supporters, he continued on down the Red Sea to conquer Yemen.[2]
..."

-------------------
Now as a strange, synchronistic link from all the Salahudin/"Aladdin" business:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/SaladinRexAegypti.jpg/200px-SaladinRexAegypti.jpg



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminated_manuscript
--------------------
EDIT: This might be interesting to Sanders (about the Multinational Force in Iraq [MNF-I]):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multinational_force_in_Iraq

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b0/Multi-National_Force-Iraq_ShoulderSIeeveInsignia.jpg/180px-Multi-National_Force-Iraq_ShoulderSIeeveInsignia.jpg


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/MultinationalForce-IraqDUI.svg/150px-MultinationalForce-IraqDUI.svg.png

Posted by: albertchampion Jan 29 2009, 08:48 PM

i recommended these two sites some time ago on a post on the internet censorship of individuals criticizing israel.

might have been missed.

these are worth tuning into on a fairly regular basis.

http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/

http://xymphora.blogspot.com/

Posted by: Sanders Feb 7 2009, 01:59 PM

CORRECTION

In an earlier post I stated that the "Lord of Sidon" in the Jolly Roger myth was most likely Baldwin II. I was confused, that should have read Baldwin I, who was one of the original crusading brothers (along with Eustace III and Geoffrey Bouillon). The two Baldwins were not father and son but lived around the same time and both married Armenian women, and I get confused. Baldwin I, the one in question, married "Arda" of Armenia, who died. He (according to the myth) humped her corpse and returned 9 months later to find the skull and bones. He had no offspring with his next wife, Adelaide del Vasto, and by agreement Jerusalem reverted to her (Adelaide's) son by an earlier marriage to Roger I of Sicily, Roger II, who flew the Jolly Roger. You can see how easy it is to get confused. Anyway, I corrected the original post - it should have read Baldwin I.

Posted by: albertchampion Feb 10 2009, 02:20 AM

and i never thought that i would read this individual saying this, proving a point one more time...

http://www.antiwar.com/scheuer/

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