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On Zionism

Sanders
post Jan 20 2009, 03:05 AM
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QUOTE (dMole @ Jan 23 2009, 10:51 PM) *
Good point Sanders. We haven't even mentioned the Jacobins, French (and Russian) Revolutions, or Fabian Socialism/Round Tables yet. Or am I jumping too far ahead?


Be my guest - lots I for one could learn about all that. thumbsup.gif
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dMz
post Jan 20 2009, 03:56 AM
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Well, first here is the "official" version of the French Revolution and the Jacobins' role(s) in it:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1E1-Jacobins.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution

Now a more "CT" version:

Dr Monteith's and David Rivera's stuff is pretty good from what I have read and watched so far.
http://www.modernhistoryproject.org/mhp/En...ntity=FrenchRev

Quotes Jim Marrs' Rule by Secrecy, an excellent book in its own right.
http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/frenchrevolution.html

There are alleged to be connections between the French and American Revolutions via Adam Weishaupt and his Order of the Illuminati, but let's skip those and the Bolshevik Revolution for now.

EDIT: On those Fabians:
http://www.modernhistoryproject.org/mhp/En...ntity=FabianSoc
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Sanders
post Jan 20 2009, 09:38 AM
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From dMole's links ... this is a good page I thought -
http://www.modernhistoryproject.org/mhp/Ar...Soc#Foundations

I liked this quote, it explains it well ... "Everywhere [Inspector Poirot] looked he found conflicting evidence, and he suddenly realized that the murder scene had been staged to confuse him. At that point he paused, surveyed the crime scene, and commented: "There are too many clues."
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Sanders
post Jan 20 2009, 03:22 PM
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Last year when Georgia invaded Ossetia, I noticed that the Georgian flag and the old flag of Jerusalem (Templar cross of St. George with four little crosses in each quadrant), which had been dug up and recommissioned after disuse during the Soviet era, were the same flag. At the time I happened to be looking at other flags and family crests, and reading an online book titled "Tracking Ladon-Gog and the Hebrew Rose". The "Rose" in this case is the Roseline, cleverly alluded to in the name Roslin (as in Roslin Castle) which the Templars apparently built in Scotland along with their pals the Sinclair family. Sinclair is an alteration of St. Clair as in the "Treaty of St. Clair sur Epte" of 911 (911 - !!!???), which granted Normandy to Rollo and his invading Vikings, and Rollo's descendents took the name St. Clair. One of them, William the Conqueror, took over England in 1066 (if you aren't familiar with this era in history), a very important event to say the least. Anyway, the Ladon-Gog book is, while difficult reading, fascinating, and among other things delves into the origins of various family crests and flags, and connections related to this elusive "rose-line".

One symbol that crops up alot when you are looking at families connected with the Templars is the cross of St. George (red and white theme), as well as a whole plethora of red and white crests featuring checks, chevrons, crosses, bars, etc. But there is another compimentary class of crests in a blue and white theme, some of them near duplicates of red-white themed crests. A good example would be the Hohen and Cohen crests, the former featuring red and white checks, the later blue and white checks - otherwise identical. The author of Ladon-Gog traces this blue and white configuration back through a Byzantine princess named Melissena and ultimately to her grandfather, Michael I Rangabe, who was the Holy Emperor of Byzantium for a short time in the 9th century.

Here is something I put together that shows some of these (and others - I'll comment on their significance and how they are all connected.)



In the bottom row you'll find Melusine. Melissena (a real person) is immortalised in a legend about a half-woman half-sea-serpent named Melusine, who wins the heart of a French noble and marries him. This is generally a Count of Lusignan, or Raymond de Vere, and first enters the literary history in the Roman de Melusine written in 1393 by Jean d'Arras. From a site about the Vere family (very wealthy, very influencial in Britain with roots in France):

"The story is a mix of fiction and fact, commissioned by the Duke de Berry, a French noble who was brother to King Charles V, and uncle of King Charles VI. It was meant to be a family history and to uphold the proprietary claims to Lusignan and Anjou. In this story Melusine's mother was a Presine fairy who charmed Elinas, the king of Scotland. The result was their daughter Melusine. Half fairy and half princess, Melusine wandered over to the Continent and eventually met up with Rainfroi/Raymond in the forests Anjou. They met while he was out boar hunting. Overcome with her beauty, he took her hand in marriage, and many adventures ensued..."

I note that her tail is described as being grey, blue and white. She is the mermaid on the Starbucks logo, and I laugh when I observe the logo changing over time - in its present form the resemblence to the mythical Melusine is almost impossible to catch (if you didn't know). In earlier versions it is quite obvious. Starbucks chairman Howard Shultz is a Zionist. There was an incriminating letter alleged to have been written by him that made the rounds on the web recently, that was a hoax (more disinfo-mind-f&*k stuff?), but, he did win the "Israel 50th Anniversary Tribute Award". Anyway, the Starbucks logo is Melusine.

To follow what I'm gonna be talking about now, here's another thing I put together - I recommend opening up windows for the blue and white crest image and this family-tree image, while reading. Otherwise, its just too hard to follow.



BTW red denotes Eastern blood, blue represents Viking/Goth blood, purple - a mix. (Roughly speaking.)

There is very little written that I could find about Melissena's grandfather Michael Rangabe, but Ladon-Gog author John claims he has found evidence linking him to the Kagans of Khazaria (Kagan meant King - it also happens to be the name of the family which founded of the neoconservative movement). His wife Procopia might also have had some Khazar blood in her, and definitely some from the Mamikonids, longtime rulers of Armenia. Poking around the genealogies of some of these families of Byzantine Emperors of that period, which ushered in a golden age in the east, I found many Armenian and Khazar pedigrees. This is a good site for anyone who enjoys tracing families btw. http://fabpedigree.com/

Maybe you are guessing where this is going, so I'll spell out what you may have guessed, and try to explain that that's not really where I'm headed. (Does that make any sense!??) All through this thread I keep alluding to two ancient branches - I'm not sure if they should actually be considered blood-lines of royalty, or just cultural branches (the "culture" in question being a "conquering" culture) - probably a mix of the two is a good way to think of it, even royal blood-lines are not linear, and when they are broken a family of the identical ruling culture usually takes its place.

I described these branches as "Egyptian" and "Gogi" - the Gogi branch pooling around the Black Sea, and the Egyptian branch leading from Egypt to both Greece and the Levant (Israel/Phoenicia). The bible talks about a migration of Isralites from Egypt to the Levant, and Greek myth describes another migration - represented by the brothers Cadmus and Phoenix. Both landed in Phoenica from Egypt, Cadmus continuing on to Greece where he founded Thebes (note that there was a city in Egypt called Thebes as well). For the record, the Phoenicians almost certainly didn't derive simply from Egypt since there is a direct continuum between Sumer-Akkad-Phoenicia - a combination of Egyptian and Mesopotamian influences probably produced the Phoenicians. Also for the record, the Greek myths almost certainly didn't describe actual people, but the migrations/battles/alliances of groups. Both of these "branches" would have origins in Sumer, although it should be obvious that the "Gogi" peoples who occupied the Black Sea region in ancient times didn't just walk there from Sumer, but represented a mix of peoples from Asia north of there and Mesopotamia to the south. Ancient burial sites confirm this somewhat. The question is, who were those peoples, associated with Apollo and Artemis in the Greek myths, who lost to the Greeks at the battle of Troy, who populated Scythia just north of the Black and Caspian seas, a land which would later become Khazaria, and who provided the stock of the Vikings and the Goths who would conquer Rome and Europe?

I contend that they were, to some large degree, Hebrew, though I might have a slightly squewed impression of what "Hebrew" means. In biblical terms Hebrews were people descended from Eber, a great-great (X-n) grandson of Shem, one of the three sons of Noah. We know that the vast majority of Jews in Israel and Europe are descended from Khazars, who are thought (in biblical terms) to be descendents of Japheth, another of Noah's sons. Try and tell a Jew who's anscestors lived in Poland, or Germany, or anywhere else in Eastern Europe ... that they aren't Hebrew (!). My point is they are as Hebrew as many of the peoples which populated ancient Armenia, or the Caucasus, or Scythia, forget about who came from Shem and who came from Japheth. Among the sons of the Egyptian princess Scota by a Scythian king (the Melisians) who invaded Ireland over two thousand years ago, one was named Heber - usually only three of these sons are mentioned. Of the three tribes listed as the Black Sea ancestors of the Vikings, one is Erul. The "Hebrew" connection might not be evident at first, but the name evokes Heracles, a Greek version of Samson - also, another VIking ancestral tribe was the Vanir, from Lake Van in Armenia. Then there's Tacitus. who describes 3 tribes as the descendents of the Germanic "Manus" (the anscestor of man), one of which is Herminones. Why always three? Three Viking ancestor tribes, three sons of Scota, three sons of Noah, three descendents of Mani ... but put that aside and ... wait a minute, we can all see the connection in the name "Eber", but Herminones doesn't begin to resemble "Hebrew". No, it doesn't, it resembles Hermes.

From John, author of Ladon-Gog:

"Update June 2006 -- I'm much "smarter" now to the illustrations set forth by the myth wizards. Knowing now that "Aphrodite" was code for "Abiru," and that Hermes was code for Armenia, I think the secret meaning of the two snakes (of the caduceus) is a Hebrew-Aryan mix. Only one of the two snakes was depicted as male, logically (I don't know which yet), and the idea of a man being able to turn into a woman (or vice versa) had to do with the utter fusing of the Hebrews with Aryans..."

There's alot in that, folks. I already went into the significance of Mt. Hermon a little bit earlier in the thread
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....&p=10762794

I'll just add that "John" and I differ a bit in that I percieve Herme's staff of Caduceus as representing the Egyptian and Gogi branches mixing in the Greek theatre and in Armenia, while he perceives it as representing a mix of Arian and Hebrew. In a way, the two perspectives are kinda the same. The salient point here which brings me back to the line of questioning I started all this with, is that Hermes evokes the name Armenia, which John (Ladon-Gog author) also poinsts out ... in fact, Cadmus' wife was named Harmonia - an even closer match - and that in light of the mixing of the two branches, Armenia, which lied between the Black Sea region and the Levant, was a melting pot, a buffer zone - which is why I think Armenia/Harmonia became the basis of our word for peaceful co-existence ... Harmony (!!!). Since figuring this out I've never been able to walk into a doctors office without looking with amazement at the staff of Caduceus, entwined by two snakes, on the door.



(The dragon represented both royalty and life-giving powers way back then, which is why you find dragons and snakes all over the place in Greek and medieval myths, and why the medical profession adopted the staff of Caduceus.)

Don't forget folks, that the coat of arms of the City of London is the cross of St. George (the Templar flag) flanked by two dragons.



So, hopefully I've rambled on enough that you can GET that the "royalty" of our world, and I mean that in a corporate sense as well as a political sense, has its roots in a merging of Hebrew and Aryan (Ladon-God "John's way of describing it), Egyptian and Gogi (the rulers of Europe a thousand years ago were mostly Gogi-descended, hence the high-importance placed on the Egyptian side and hence the pyramid found in places like the dollar bill and the Israeli Supreme Court, or the placement of Egyptian Obelisk "penises" in Washington DC and the City of London), East and West, heck, call it whatever you like, any word you want to make up is probably better than the squewed vernacular which has been played with intentionally to prevent people from talking intelligently about any of this.

Recently Joe Biden said, unapologetically, "I'm a Zionist - you don't have to be Jewish to be a Zionist". Why!?? Joe Biden doesn't appear to me to be one of those "have to rebuild the Temple of Solomon so that the Messiah can come back and save the righteous while destroying the world" rapture-believing nut-jobs. (!!!???) Think about it. It makes no sense, he's not saying "I have to support Israel because AIPAC is breathing down my neck 24-7". He's saying, I'm not a nut, I'm not Jewish, and I'm a Zionist.

The "why" is, people like Biden are members of the elite culture - they don't think like you and I. Support of Israel is implicit. I am trying to explain why - maybe I can, maybe I can't. Anyway, this mixing area between "Aryan and Hebrew", "Egyptian and Gogi", "East and West" is critical, and is why Melissena was immortalized in myth - she was the first (excepting the possible but improbable mixing between Mary of Magdalene and the Merovingians, and the less improbable mixing of the Makhir family with Frank nobility) marriage linking East and West. Not much is known about her husband Inger, but he was a Viking - Varangian Rus to be exact, like the people who ruled Russia from Kiev from about the same period.

That brings me to Margaret Queen of Scotland, but before I dive into that I need to note that there is another real-life candidate for the mythical Melusine. Melisende, the daughter of the Crusader and king of Jerusalem Baldwin II, might not be as likely a candidate as the Rangabe Melissena, but she also represents a merging of East and West, in fact, her mother was Moraphia of ARMENIA. I about fell off my chair when I figured out that among her ancestors was the house of Bagratun. Here's a quote from Saakashvili, the current president of Georgia:

“My grandmother was also a Bagrationi. I say it for people, who want to restore the monarchy. It would be even better because we would avoid the need for elections and would decide everything based on family traditions,” - To Georgian reporters in Finland, October 12, 2007.

That family has been running Georgia for a millenium - excepting the Soviet period. Armenia I don't know much about, but I know it was as volitile as it was large - Jewish, Christian and Gnostic (Manichaean & Paulician) forces collided there like in no other place. Furthermore, the "lost" tribes of Israel most likely passed through Armenia in their eventual migration into the Caucasus and Scythia. Here's an article about Jews in Armenia I thought was good - gives some detailed information about the transportation of Jews from Israel into that area...
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp...87&letter=A

And even Wikipedia admits that the Jewish community in Georgia is one of the oldest in the world:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_th...orgia_(country)

So when you read on sites like WhatReallyHappened (vehemently anti-Zionist) that Ashkenazi Jews (descended from Khazars) have no blood connection to Israel, he is only revealing half of the story. In fact, Scythia (later Khazaria) is where the Israelites went. Just to muck up your head some more, I'll point out that the Israelites and the Jews weren't exactly the same people - the Israelites lived in the north - they were pagan (particularly the northernmost tribes like Dan and Naphtali), and, according to the Bible, were punished for their pagan ways by being carried off. People think of the Israelites being relocated to Babylon, but many apparently found their way into Armenia, the Caucasus, and Scythia. The word Judaism of course derives from Judah, which was separate and in the south. People identify "Hebrew" with Judaism, but in fact they should be thought of as distinct from one another IMO (Jews being a religious sect within the Hebrew lineage as were the Kabbalist ancestors of the Templars)! Yes, it's messy and confusing, and that's my point. I read that the oldest Jewish communities in Georgia and the Ashkenazi communities there are quite different in their traditions, suggesting different waves of migration.

... Later, in around the 9th century (I think), Khazaria converted en-masse to Judaism, and within a century or two after that the kingdom collapsed. I won't go into how or why it collapsed, because I honestly don't know and can't get a straight answer from sources on the web .... but coinciding with its collapse, there was a migration from Khazaria by Kabar (a sect of Khazars) and Magyar tribes led by princes known as the Arpads (who claimed decendency from Attila the Hun) into Hungary. The "Hun" in Hungary comes from these "Huns" of course. They ruled the roost for a time, then there was a short period when Italians ran Hungary, then the "Arpads" took back the throne - and this is (exactly) when the English hier Edward, who had been hiding in in Kiev, moves to Hungary, and has a daughter Margaret. When she is about 12 the Danes who took over England under Canute and ruled for a time finally leave, and Edward, Margaret, her mother Agatha, George the son of the Hungarian king Andrew, George's son Maurice (if he was born by then?) and Bartholemew - also of uncertain royal Hungarian blood , all moved from Budhapest to Britain ... Margaret then married Malcom III of Scotland, and her son became the next king of Scotland while her daughter Matilda married king Henry I. I find it incredibly interesting that the Hungarian royals central to this story are Andrew and George, and that the flags of England and Scotland, configured around this period, are based on the crosses of St. Andrew and St. George - and that Margaret's Hungarian (Khazar/Hun) lineage is never talked about. And, I literally fell off my chair when I saw Michael Rangabe's white cross on blue hovering over St. Margaret's head on a stained glass window in the church in Edinburgh bearing her name.

And call it a coincidence ....... but the original leader of the Zionist movement, Theodor Hertzl, was born in Budhapest. blink.gif

Another important figure is Andrew's niece, Sophia. Another big East-West marriage event ... in fact, she married twice. One marriage produced the Wittelsbachs, who ran Bavaria for a period, and if you look at the family crest and the flag of Bavaria you can see that they are essentially the same - blue and white diamonds. There were two Wittelsbach Holy Roman Emperors. Albert "the Bear", also descended from Sophia, was another big figure. I think (I'm struggling to remember and too lazy to look it up) he unified the Germanic lands in the area around Brandenburg.

I listed a line of Arpad (Hungarian) rulers starting with Sophia's brother Geza I which lead to a Johanna von Bayern-Staubing. I don't know who this Johanna is, and I don't think it's so important. I included this lineage because it resembles so many others, which show how the Arpad (Hun) rulers of Hungary spread from there first into Bohemia and then Bavaria. Bavaria BTW is written in German as Bayern. Looks like Bayer (aspirin, Nazi gas makers). Or Bauer - the original family name of the Rothschilds. I included the Bayer family crest in my jpeg - again, blue and white theme.

Bauer, Bayer, Bayern, all these names derive from the same meaning and suggest common roots ... the Scottish branch of the Bauer family is Bower - as in, Bow and Arrow. That's why the Rothshild bank logo sports 5 arrows in a bundle. It's a Hun fable - the mother tells her 5 warring sons that one arrow can easily be snapped, but 5 in a bundle can never be broken. The original 5 famous Rothschild (Bauer) sons (Nathan, Karl, Salomon, James, Amshel) are referred to to this day as the "5 arrows". Simply put (actually it's not so simple, it's actually a Mongol legend, but before there were Mongol's - and the Huns and Mongols most likely shared roots ...it's too complicated, you get my drift, so never mind) it's a "Hun" legend. Or call them Kazars if you like. Whatever, this was a definite migration from Khazaria through Hungary to Bavaria, resulting in a flurry of "Gnostic" activity in that area in the later middle ages - for one, the Rosicrucians officially eminated from the area - the (real) "Illuminati" were busted there too.

So how do these other blue and white crested families fit into this? The Leslie clan are very wealthy and influential in Scotland - they descend from Bartholomew, of uncertain pedigree [see post below re: uncertain connection to Pollak clan] who accompanied Margaret to Scotland. The Drummonds are descended from king Andrew of Hungary, they are incredibly wealthy and their bank was absorbed into the Royal Bank of Scotland. They are related to the British royal family. I already mentioned that Cohen derives from Kagan. The Bruces are legendary, Robert the Bruce is one of the main characters in Mel Gibson's flawed but fun "Braveheart" ... they came from France, and the first Bruce (actually Brusse) of note descends from Rognvald, who married the sister of Yaroslav, who sheltered Margaret's father Edward in Kiev before he moved to Hungary, AND is descended from Melissena to boot. Don't miss on that genealogy jpeg that the Brusses married in with the St Clair/Sinclair family a mere two generations after Rognvald Brusse's marraige to Yaroslav's sister (!). I included the Bouillon crest amoung the blue & white-themed crests because it's the same as the cross used by Michael Rangabe, only with red instead of blue. Geoffrey de Bouillon was the leader of the 1st crusade, along with his brothers Baldwin and Eustace (shown on genealogy tree). The three-tipped "fleur-de-lis" looking thing at the ends of the arms of the cross on both the Rangabe and Bouillon crests represent the 12 houses of the zodiac, grouped into 4 houses of 3 which apparently represent the elements or the seasons. The crest of Languedoc/Toulouse (Cathar country) used a cross which also shows this pagan grouping of 12 into 4 groups of three.

I'm getting tired - I can't tell if I've successfully made my case or not. Feedback??? Hopefully I can add some tidbits that strenthen the connections later as I remember them.
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Sanders
post Jan 21 2009, 05:40 AM
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I didn't include Bartholomew in my little family tree above, mainly because I could find nothing about his ancestry. I've heard him referred to as Bartholomew Ladislav, or Bartholomew de Leslie. He accompanied princess Margaret and her entourage from Hungary to Scotland, and his anscestors in Scotland are known as the Leslie clan. I did include the Leslie crest, as it follows the Blue and White theme, (even though I haven't seen how this family relates to Melissena).

I just stumbled on to this - a genealogy site I use which shows the Pollak family as being possible anscestors of Bartholomew. http://fabpedigree.com/s068/f801159.htm

This alleged Pollak connection isn't concrete, but I still about fell off my chair.

I looked in to this Pollak family once, and they are interesting for the fact that their family crest features a boar.
http://www.houseofnames.com/fc.asp?sId=&s=pollak

The Pollak boar is doubly interesting, bacause it has an arrow in it's neck - a possible reference to the "Calydonian Boar Hunt" of Greek legend. The Vere family, mentioned in some versions of the Melusine myth, also features a boar - a blue one as I showed. Here's the Vere crest:
http://www.houseofnames.com/fc.asp?sId=&s=vere

The boar indicates Black Sea region (Gogi) roots, these peoples are usually represented in Greek myths by association with either Apollo or Artemis, and the story of the Calydonian Boar Hunt is one such example. Ladon-Gog author connects the Pollak line to the Lugii, a peoples that populated a part of Germania, Pollak apparently derives from Po-Lug, or head of Lug. Interestingly there was also a Lugii peoples who settled in northern Scotland. There is even an early woodcut of Andrew, patron saint of Scotland, with a big boar that I found.
http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/7318/standrew013vb4.jpg

(The Bush family crest also features the boar - three of them in fact.)

This is all in my "dragon" thread, here's a post about the Pollak/Vere/Lugii connection
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....&p=10749240

What I didn't know at the time was that Bartholomew de Leslie was possibly descended from the Pollak line.

(Not a spectacular find, but it adds one piece.)
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Sanders
post Jan 21 2009, 11:04 PM
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The Drummond and Leslie clans might be unfamiliar to many.

Leslie, from Wikipedia:

QUOTE
The family name comes from the Leslie lands of Aberdeenshire and was to become famous in Germany, Poland, France and Russia. A Hungarian (or more likely by onomastics and typical of the times as well as later Leslie history, a Kievan of Varangian origins) nobleman, named Bartholomew arrived in the retinue of Agatha, wife of Edward the Exile. Bartholomew became Chamberlain to Saint Margaret of Scotland. Bartholomew later married Malcolm III sister, Princess Beatrix of Scotland. His brother inlaw Malcolm III made him Governor of Edinburgh Castle.No trace can be found in the Ragman Rolls of any members of the Leslie family-despite their strong connection to a number of claimants to the Scots crown. ...The family sided with Robert the Bruce against firstly The Comyn in the Buchan and secondly Edward I and as a result were awarded large tracts of Aberdeenshire.


Paul McCartney married Heather Mills at one of the many Leslie estates, this one in Ireland:



Another in Scotland:



The grandeur of the Leslie castles pale by comparison to those of the Drummonds, direct decendents of the royal Hungarian Arpad family -



The Drummonds owned Drummond bank, which was absorbed into the Royal Bank of Scotland. Wikipedia:

QUOTE
Drummonds (motto: Prius Mori Quam Fidem Fallere) is an English private banking house founded in 1717 by goldsmith Andrew Drummond (1688–1769). The bank was owned by the Drummond family until January 1924, when it was taken over by The Royal Bank of Scotland...

The bank held accounts for King George III, and other members of the royal family including the Queen Mother. Other famous clients included Alexander Pope, Robert Adam and James Adam, Lancelot “Capability” Brown, Josiah Wedgwood and Thomas Gainsborough.


Two Drummonds, John and Henry, were in charge of doling out English money for the hire of German mercinaries during the Revolutionary War in America - much of which wound up under the control of Mayer Amschell Rothschild (Bauer), who used it to finance his family's banking empire.

Henry Drummond Jr. was a co-founder of the Catholic Apostle Church, which, along with its other co-founder Edward Irving, were at the center of the formulation of the doctrine of the Rapture. Drummond was one of the church's 12 apostles:
http://www.answers.com/topic/catholic-apostolic-church

QUOTE
This millennialist denomination derived from meetings held from 1826 at Albury Park, the Surrey home of the London banker and Tory politician Henry Drummond (1786-1860). Among those attending was Edward Irving, minister of Regent Square Scottish Church, London, then at the peak of his wayward genius. Excluded from Regent Square in 1832, Irving established a congregation in Newman Street. This became the first Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. Liberally supported by Drummond, the new body developed a hierarchy of apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastors... (British History @ Answers.com)

...[a] religious community originating in England c.1831 and extending later to Germany and the United States (1848). It was founded under the influence of Edward Irving; its members are sometimes called Irvingites. Because of their prophetic gifts, 12 apostles (including Henry Drummond) were in 1835 set aside as officers. They were expected to survive until the Second Coming of Jesus, but the last of them died in 1901. (Columbia Encyclopedia)


Another person who figured prominently in the formulation of the rapture doctrine was Charles Taze Russell, founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses. The original Russells followed William the Conqueror from Normandy (Roussel) to England, where the family was granted lands in Dorset (by William) for distinguished service at the battle of Hastings.
http://www.houseofnames.com/fc.asp?sId=&s=russell

As I mentioned earlier, another prominant Russell, (William H. Russell) co-founded Skull and Bones at Yale.

I'm not sure what it all means ... but the connections are mind-boggling.
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albertchampion
post Jan 22 2009, 12:37 AM
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i am dumbstruck by your interest in genealogy. the long arms of the past continue to be involved in the present and the future. you have discovered a chord of "controller" genealogy that has relevance. that was the reason for debrett's and all the other "stud" books. in a very funny sense, we seem to have forgotten the notion of morganatic marriages and how human beings' genetic strains have been/are as recorded as thoroughbred horses, dogs.

david ickes might say that what you are relating are the "lizard" chronicles. i wouldn't argue with him.

carroll quickley discussed some of these relationships in his book THE ANGLO AMERICAN ESTABLISHMENT. a recounting of the conspiratorial nature of life on this planet that goes so ignored that i think one must be compelled to conclude that there is what i consider a contra-historical movement governing the society's perceptions of the past.

think of "opium" as an aspect of the amerikan invasion of vietnam for instance. stanley karnow, regarded as one of the most important recorders of that invasion, never mentions opium. recently, two other books were published concerning that invasion. one is a third party record entitled LESSONS IN DISASTER: MCGEORGE BUNDY AND THE PATH TO WAR IN VIETNAM. opium goes unmentioned. and the NGO FAMILY goes unexamined.

similarly in rufus phillip's first hand memoir WHY VIETNAM MATTERS.

some years ago, in lyndon larouche's EXECUTIVE INTELLIGENCE REVIEW there was a history of the house of saxe-coburg-gotha[aka windsor] and the house of orange. and how deeply these royal family's were allied to germany's national socialist movement/government. many don't think highly of larouche. but over the years, i have noticed that he gets it more accurately than his detractors.
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Sanders
post Jan 22 2009, 02:42 AM
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QUOTE (albertchampion @ Jan 25 2009, 11:37 PM) *
david ickes might say that what you are relating are the "lizard" chronicles. i wouldn't argue with him.


Well, even though I think he is off his rocker with his "lizard" stuff, there is a sort of basis for it, in the sense that the symbol of the dragon has been associated with royalty for millenia.

The opium angle of Vietnam had escaped me - very interesting indeed. You know, the Russells made a lot of money in China selling the stuff ... (FDR's grandfather Warren Delano worked for them).

I'll have to read what Larouche has published on the Windsors, I've never looked in to that.
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lunk
post Jan 22 2009, 02:08 PM
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same structure


Notice any similarity?

How long before DNA was discovered,
was this symbol for medicine, designed?

Two spiraled snakes ~ double helix

I don't think this can be a coincidence.

imo, lunk
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dMz
post Jan 22 2009, 07:20 PM
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Sweet DNA image lunk! I've seen that poster before, I think at university.

More links on DNA and chemical modeling:

http://personal.cscs.ch/~mvalle/ChemViz/re...ions/index.html

http://personal.cscs.ch/~mvalle/ChemViz/re...ions/color.html

http://www.freebase.com/view/en/dna

DNA Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/index.html?curid=7955

EDIT: I've been going to suggest that Sanders do an outline for all this "Dragon Thread" business for some time now, but much like "folded," intertwined strands of DNA, how would one organize it? Where to start, or end? I concluded that these shadowy "strands" don't lend themselves to linear or modular outlines FWIW... What is this Sanders, going on 2 years of research into this now?
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lunk
post Jan 22 2009, 09:00 PM
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In-line breeding, maintains the traits,
but weakens the lines,
this seemed to have happened with
the commercial chicken stocks.

There are fewer "strains" of layers and meat birds
available for the farmer today then just a few years ago.

It looks like selective breeding has been
going on with humans, by humans, for along time.

We know that the ancient Greeks were talking about atoms,
Was there knowledge of DNA back then too?

After all, a scion is a graft (or clone) from a tree.
(sounds like sion, a variant of Zion)

ion, lunk
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Sanders
post Jan 23 2009, 12:18 AM
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QUOTE (lunk @ Jan 26 2009, 07:00 PM) *
<DNA images> Notice any similarity? ... I don't think this can be a coincidence...

After all, a scion is a graft (or clone) from a tree.
(sounds like sion, a variant of Zion)

Wow. It's freakier than that, because I think it's really the other way around, Zion is a variant of Sion (!). Mt. Sion is another name for Mt. Hermon - same derivative as Hermes - and the Caduceus is of course the Staff of Hermes. I don't know - to imagine that the ancient rulers of Greece understood the structure the DNA is ... hard to fathom.

QUOTE (dMole @ Jan 26 2009, 06:20 PM) *
Where to start, or end? I concluded that these shadowy "strands" don't lend themselves to linear or modular outlines FWIW... What is this Sanders, going on 2 years of research into this now?


Off and on. Where to start is easy - you start with the myth of Cadmus, and his wife Harmonia, and the dragon he slew in Greece, and the Spartans which grew from the teeth he planted in the ground, and then link Harmonia's name to Hermes and Armenia, and why, and go from there, backwards and forwards. I'll bet if someone really understood all this and understood all of the Greek Myths, the story has already been told. Unfotunately it's been locked up in that "coded" form from general humanity.

There's a whole can of worms regarding the Hohens of Flanders and Germany, Margraves of Brandenburg, the Wettins & Wittelsbachs, Dukes of Babenberg (who, according to Wikipedia were descended from Byzantine emperors and all took Greek wives!!!), basically the way various houses fought and married in and around Bavaria (roughly during the crusading era), which, apparently someone in "the know" thought would be fun to base a children's cartoon on. 'The Flinstones' was born - Fred Flinstone represents Frederick it seems, Fred and Wilma the Hohens of Flanders (hence Flinstone?), Betty and Barney the houses of Witten and Brunswick, Bambam the Dukes of Babenberg (of Bamberg)???.... I think I got all that right. dunno.gif The family crests and the colors of the costumes in the cartoon all seem to match. This is another 'Ladon-Gog' discovery, not mine. (He talks about it in little bits in various chapters of his book, some of it is discussed at the end of part I here - http://www.tribwatch.com/SingleFile.htm .)

The problem is, I don't feel like I really understand all this stuff. It's too complicated, and I'm too weak on the fine points of Greek and medieval history - not to mention that the important parts seem to have been intentionally concealed. BUT, the discovery I mentioned above, that members of two very well connected elite families - the Russells and the Drummonds - were both involved in the formulation of the Rapture doctrine, tells me what I've long suspected, that the real reason for the founding of Israel was never the creation of a homeland for the Jews. Heaven knows, if the Crusading Knights felt common cause with the Jews of Palestine, they wouldn't have slaughtered them all when they took Jerusalem. The unfortunate Jews there didn't just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, survivors retreated to their synagogues where they were burned alive. Yet I can see how a Gnostic/pagan-oriented elite, evolved from ancient roots which struggled for power with the Church of Rome, is connected at the hip to (vaguely defined) Hebrew peoples who's influence from Egypt to Scythia in ancient times cannot be denied (I forgot to mention earlier that Iberia - both the Caucasus kingdom and the Spanish peninsula, Habiru - of Egypt, some other "Eber" derived names, and 'Hebrew' are likely all of shared origin) ... and, I can see all the connections between the people who run the United States (and especially the architects of the SYSTEM by which it is ruled) and pirates, drug-runners, Freemasons and Templar bankers ... but I really don't know the real reason why dominance of the Holy Land is so important to these people. Is it so obvious that I can't see it??

If someone out there knows, blurt it out! I'd love to know!
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lunk
post Jan 23 2009, 01:25 AM
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Sanders, have you checked out Alan Watt?

http://209.85.122.85/10705/189/0/p1001814/...x_Alan_Watt.mp3

Your research is validating much of his story, for me.

He says that there needed to be an opposition in the Middle East,
and this was planned long before, anything that happened in the last millennium, and perhaps, before that.

I got a whole lot of these over at Artists for 9/11 truth.

There's a link to his site in my sig there.

imo, lunk
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albertchampion
post Jan 23 2009, 03:06 AM
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or how about this from lundberg on relationships. lizard relationships?

http://www.soilandhealth.org/03sov/0303cri.../030304ch8.html
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albertchampion
post Jan 23 2009, 03:23 AM
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more evidence of a lizard race infesting this planet.

some days ago, i referred you to this pic of george walker bush leaving a lectern before his departure from eating mice. nyt, page a14 national edition, tuesday 13/01/09.

look at that pic very closely. observe the shoulders. the arms. the hands.

now, go to 18/01/09 nyt magazine. cover OBAMA'S PEOPLE. PHOTGRAPHS BY NADAV KANDER.

here are the most striking photos of LIZARDS.....

ROBERT M GATES, PAGE 95

JIM MESSINA, PAGE 98

KEN SALAZAR, PAGE 94

GREG CRAIG, PAGE 89

GEN JAMES JONES, PAGE 82

LARRY SUMMERS, PAGE 56

and last but not least, RAHM EMANUEL, PAGE 54
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Sanders
post Jan 23 2009, 04:14 AM
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QUOTE (lunk @ Jan 26 2009, 11:25 PM) *
Sanders, have you checked out Alan Watt?


Yeah, even though his colorful site makes me go a little cross-eyed, it looks like a porthole to lots of good information. I also appreciate that he focuses on the extent to which we are manipulated, enchouraging people to wise up.

@A.C., wow, that Lundberg piece was a great read!!! Incredible stuff toward the end, the inside scoop on A.P.Giannini (B of A) going up against Morgan in the early part of the century - I want to read his whole book. handsdown.gif

As for the reptilian thing in a non-allegorical sense, down that path I cannot follow.
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dMz
post Jan 23 2009, 04:35 AM
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QUOTE (Sanders @ Jan 20 2009, 12:22 PM) *
Since figuring this out I've never been able to walk into a doctors office without looking with amazement at the staff of Caduceus, entwined by two snakes, on the door.



(The dragon represented both royalty and life-giving powers way back then, which is why you find dragons and snakes all over the place in Greek and medieval myths, and why the medical profession adopted the staff of Caduceus.)

The "classical" Hippocratic Oath sworn by doctors is quite interesting in this context.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/doctors/oath_classical.html

Hippocratic Oath—Classical Version

I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfil according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:

To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of mine, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art - if they desire to learn it - without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken an oath according to the medical law, but no one else.

I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.

I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.

I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.

Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice, of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons, be they free or slaves.

What I may see or hear in the course of the treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep to myself, holding such things shameful to be spoken about.

If I fulfil this oath and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honored with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot.

Translation from the Greek by Ludwig Edelstein. From The Hippocratic Oath: Text, Translation, and Interpretation, by Ludwig Edelstein. Baltimore: Johns Hopkins Press, 1943.

----------------------------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath
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Sanders
post Jan 23 2009, 04:58 AM
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An oath to not give out deadly drugs or take up the knife!??? laughing1.gif



(Very interesting.)
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lunk
post Jan 23 2009, 07:57 AM
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What if one discovers that their sworn oath
is opposed to their own values?
They either have to break their oath,
or go against their own values.

I had to take an oath once,
before I was old enough to understand,
what they were all about.
Now, I'm stuck guarding some queen,
I know nothing about.
Boy Scout (retired)

imo, lunk
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Timothy Osman
post Jan 24 2009, 08:38 PM
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QUOTE
I had to take an oath once,
before I was old enough to understand,
what they were all about.
Now, I'm stuck guarding some queen,
I know nothing about.
Boy Scout (retired)


I remember being punished at school for refusing to sing either the lords prayer or God save the Queen. It pays to be a prick of a kid. I used to sing a Scott Bonner lawn mower jingle instead. Scott Bonner who art in heaven hallowed be thy name, until I got a bit loud. rolleyes.gif

Oh and never a Boy Scout, Tim.

This post has been edited by Timothy Osman: Jan 24 2009, 08:51 PM
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