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9/11 Mind Swell, What's wrong with the truth movement?

statusquobuster
post Aug 11 2009, 02:21 PM
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9/11 Mind Swell

Joel S. Hirschhorn

As we approach the eighth anniversary of 9/11 consider this paradox. In the post 9-11 years the scientific evidence for disbelieving the official government story has mounted incredibly. And the number of highly respected and credentialed professionals challenging the official story has similarly expanded. Yet, to the considerable disappointment of the international 9/11 truth movement, the objective fact is that there are no widespread, loud demands for a new government-backed 9/11 investigation. The 9/11 truth movement is the epitome of a marginalized movement, one that never goes away despite not achieving truly meaningful results, which in this case means replacing official lies with official truth. What has gone wrong?

Akin to the definition of insanity, the hallmark of entrenched but marginalized movements is that they continue to pursue exactly the same strategy and tactics that have failed to produce solid results. They indulge themselves with self-delusion, defensive thinking and acting as if the world at large must surely and finally wake up, see the light and embrace the Truth. Years and, potentially, decades go by, but this quixotic status quo remains embedded, as if set in intellectual concrete. There is no brain tumor to blame. Nor any mass hypnosis of true believers to prove. There is just monumental disinterest among the dominant culture, political establishment and the broad public that is far more engaged with other issues, problems and movements.

The 9/11 truth movement, at best, gets meager public attention when it is derided and insulted, used as an example of persistent conspiratorial insanity.

Make no mistake; I concluded a few years back, after using my professional engineering and materials science background to study the evidence, that the official government story is a lie. As a former full professor of engineering, I firmly believe that elements of the US government were involved with contributing to (not just allowing) the 9/11 tragedy, but that does not necessarily eliminate the role of those terrorists publicly blamed for the events. Science, logic, evidence and critical thinking told me this.

Who should we blame for the failure of the 9/11 truth movement to fix the historical record and, better yet, identify those in the government who turned 9/11 into an excuse for going to war, getting them indicted, prosecuted, and punished for their murderous acts?

It is too easy to blame the mainstream media and political establishment for refusing to demand and pursue a truly comprehensive and credible independent scientific and engineering investigation. President Obama with his tenacious belief in looking forward, not backward, exemplifies a national mindset to avoid the painful search for truth and justice that could produce still more public disillusionment with government and feed the belief that American democracy is weak at best, and delusional at worst.

Marginalized movements always face competition for public attention. There are always countless national issues and problems that feed new movements and distract the public. There have been many since 9/11, not the least of which was the last presidential campaign and then the painful economic recession, and now the right wing attacks on health care reform. The 9/11 truth movement illustrates a total failure to compete successfully with other events and movements.

This can be explained in several ways. The 9/11 movement has not been able to articulate enough benefits to the public from disbelieving the official government story and pursuing a new investigation. What might ordinary Americans gain? Would proof-positive of government involvement make them feel better, more secure, and more patriotic? Apparently not. In fact, just the opposite. By its very nature, the 9/11 issue threatens many things by discovering the truth: still less confidence in the US political system, government and public officials. Still more reason to ponder the incredible loss of life and national wealth in pursuing the Iraq war. In other words, revealing 9/11 truth offers the specter of a huge national bummer. Conversely, it would show the world that American democracy has integrity.

The second explanation for failure is that the truth movement itself is greatly to blame. It has been filled with nerdish, ego-centric and self-serving activists (often most interested in pushing their pet theory) unable to pursue strategies designed to face and overcome ugly, challenging realities. The truth movement became a cottage industry providing income and meaning for many individuals and groups feeding the committed with endless websites, public talks, videos, books and paraphernalia. They habitually preach to the choir. Applause substitutes for solid results. In particular, it embraces the simplistic (and obviously ineffective) belief that by revealing technical, scientific and engineering facts and evidence the public and political establishment would be compelled to see the light. Darkness has prevailed.

Proof of this are the views expressed days ago on the truth movement by Ben Cohen on the Huffington Post: “I have done some research on the topic, but stopped fairly quickly into when it dawned on me that: 1. Any alternative to the official account of what happened is so absurd it simply cannot be true. 2. No reputable scientific journal has ever taken any of the 'science' of the conspiracy seriously. 3. The evidence supporting the official story is overwhelming, whereas the 9/11 Truthers have yet to produce a shred of concrete evidence that members of the U.S. government planned the attacks in New York and Washington.” Similarly, in the London Times James Bone recently said a “gruesome assortment of conspiracy theorists insists that the attacks on the US of September 11, 2001 were an inside job. It is easy to mock this deluded gang of ageing hippies, anarchists and anti-Semites.” Truthers continue to face a very steep uphill battle.

A common lie about the truth movement is that there have been no credible scientific articles in peer reviewed journals supporting it. But those opposing the truth movement will and do find ways to attack whatever scientific evidence is produced and published. It takes more than good science and facts for the movement to succeed.

Besides the movement having too many genuine crackpots (possibly trying to subvert it), a larger problem is what has been missing from it: effective political strategies. Besides pushing scientific results and more credible supporters, it did nothing successful to make a new 9/11 investigation a visible issue in the last presidential campaign. It did nothing effective to put pressure on a new, Democrat controlled congress to consider legislation providing the authorization and funding for a new, credible investigation. It seems that people who want to blame the government are often unable to also see the political path forward that requires the government to fund a new investigation.

To its credit, Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth does have a petition aimed at Congress, demanding a new investigation, but has fewer than 5,000 signers. The petition effort in New York City to get a new investigation is commendable, with just under 75,000 signers, but national action is needed. Pragmatically, both efforts are unimpressive compared to other campaigns seeking political action. To get both media attention and political support the movement needs a hundred times more documented supporters, willing to do a lot more than sign a petition.

The tenth anniversary of 9/11 will come fast. The opportunity is making 9/11 an issue in the 2012 presidential campaign. The least delusional and defensive in the truth movement should think deeply and seriously on what needs to change to accomplish the prime goal: having an official investigation that compels most people and history to accept the truth, no matter how painful it is, including the possibility that it finds no compelling evidence for government involvement.

[Contact Joel S. Hirschhorn through delusionaldemocracy.com]
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painter
post Aug 11 2009, 02:46 PM
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statusquobuster, would you please provide a link to the above so we don't have to go searching for it?

Thank you.
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amazed!
post Aug 11 2009, 03:00 PM
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Joel

A very good post. The phenomenon you describe probably stems from "crisis fatigue", or some other similar term, on the part of the american people. With crisis after crisis and high unemployment, people "upside down" in their home and car financing, with 2 wars raging that voters have "rejected" several times through "the ballot box", people don't really give a damn about what happened back then.

I think most people understand that the OCT is a damn lie, like virtually everything else the government says and does. Not many like to talk about it, but most folks understand that it's a lie, and are in touch with reality enough to know that another government investigation will be just like the first one--a coverup.

Perhaps mosst folks think that JFK was killed by men other than Oswald, but they have enough things to worry about in their daily lives than to really care how history books describe the events.
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JFK
post Aug 11 2009, 05:29 PM
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QUOTE (painter @ Aug 11 2009, 02:46 PM) *
statusquobuster, would you please provide a link to the above so we don't have to go searching for it?

Thank you.


Appears to have originated here - http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/1604...hirschhorn.html
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CyberZoo
post Aug 11 2009, 05:56 PM
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Very good article, you make an excellent point about the next step in bringing this issue out into the open. We need PEOPLE and exposure. The media will not cover it, so the masses will have to step up. Word of mouth, local and online discussion groups help, but it remains to be seen whether or not the movement can expand before those in power clamp down on free speech, the Internet, cell phone and other means of communication.

I am ready to travel to DC or NYC to attend any marches. I have looked, but I have not heard of any such activities being organized. If anyone knows of any, please share!

This post has been edited by CyberZoo: Aug 11 2009, 05:57 PM
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KP50
post Aug 11 2009, 07:17 PM
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QUOTE
To get both media attention and political support the movement needs a hundred times more documented supporters, willing to do a lot more than sign a petition.

There lies the Catch-22 of the whole situation. Media attention will never come other than in a "point and laugh at the loonies" or "lock up up the loonies" way. Worldwide mainstream backing for the truth movement would mobilise people instantly - and destroy the hold that the mainstream media has over perceptions in this world. The MSM doesn't control what "the masses" think - but it controls what they think about.
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Sanders
post Aug 12 2009, 09:52 AM
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That's a good piece by Hirschhorn. 9/11 is such an enigma, because the truth of what happened, if you look at it and think about it logically for any length of time, is so clear ... yet the critical mass of the entire world is under some kind of spell and can't wrap their collective mind around it. Behold the power of the beast. It all conjures up to me the retelling by Aaron Russo, of future events foretold then by Nicholas Rockefeller, where he laughs while explaining how US troops will search caves in Afghanistan for the perpetrators of the "event", and how the world will buy into the whole War on Terror as sold to it by the mass media.

If people understood that the current economic crisis and what follows is all part of the same 'push' toward total control by the world's elite, they might not be so selfishly disinterested.

Sometimes I think the failure of the truth movement is the lack of real leaders, and in the place of said, pseudo-leaders either manipulated by the status-quo, or supported and/or allowed to rant-and-rave virtue of their self-destructive techniques. Then you have to add to that of course all of the mis/dis-info that has polluted the waters, attacks by truther against truther fomented by the same status-quo (DoD psy-operations etc.?), turning the truth movement into a "herd of cats", (.e. impossible to organize).

It is ironic that Ron Paul, who rejects the notion that 9/11 was an inside job, has done more substantively to further the ends of the righteous, that is, getting rid of the elites' cash-cow in America, the FED, than any truther.

Not sure where that leaves us, but that's the landscape from my small perch.
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JimMac
post Aug 12 2009, 11:26 AM
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QUOTE (Sanders @ Aug 12 2009, 09:52 AM) *
That's a good piece by Hirschhorn. 9/11 is such an enigma, because the truth of what happened, if you look at it and think about it logically for any length of time, is so clear ... yet the critical mass of the entire world is under some kind of spell and can't wrap their collective mind around it. Behold the power of the beast. It all conjures up to me the retelling by Aaron Russo, of future events foretold then by Nicholas Rockefeller, where he laughs while explaining how US troops will search caves in Afghanistan for the perpetrators of the "event", and how the world will buy into the whole War on Terror as sold to it by the mass media.

If people understood that the current economic crisis and what follows is all part of the same 'push' toward total control by the world's elite, they might not be so selfishly disinterested.

Sometimes I think the failure of the truth movement is the lack of real leaders, and in the place of said, pseudo-leaders either manipulated by the status-quo, or supported and/or allowed to rant-and-rave virtue of their self-destructive techniques. Then you have to add to that of course all of the mis/dis-info that has polluted the waters, attacks by truther against truther fomented by the same status-quo (DoD psy-operations etc.?), turning the truth movement into a "herd of cats", (.e. impossible to organize).

It is ironic that Ron Paul, who rejects the notion that 9/11 was an inside job, has done more substantially to further the ends of the righteous, that is, getting rid of the elites' cash-cow in America, the FED, than any truther.

Not sure where that leaves us, but that's the landscape from my small perch.



Great post Sanders, an artful summation of the complex concisely wrapped into the simple, and expressed neatly in a sentence or two, without losing or warping anything out of shape. How do you do that so well? smile.gif

Take this for example: " 9/11 is such an enigma, because the truth of what happened, if you look at it and think about it logically for any length of time, is so clear ... yet the critical mass of the entire world is under some kind of spell and can't wrap their collective mind around it. Behold the power of the beast."

How spot on is that? Terribly...

And the movement described as "a herd of cats". That's what it is, precisely.

You used the word logical. I have done this over and over again, tried to reason out the existence of the NWO, the actors, the steps, and where this going. Am I wrong? Or is it correct to say we spend the greater part of our energy doing just this? It's so counter productive when the truth is hidden in such plain view.

Has anyone written the book, 9/11 for Dummies... maybe someone here should. You get my vote for that. There would be a chapter on Mr. Norman Dodd.

I have to keep reminding myself that 9/11 was eight years ago, and its just one point on the curve. We who seek the truth are ahead of the curve in our awareness. Yet there are more events to come. 9/11 may pale by comparison one day. And where will we enlightened folks be then? And where will everyone else be? Playing catch-up? Or will they still be stumbling around in the dark, like the proverbial blind man with a flashlight. I guess we know the answer already.

I think the answer to your question, if there was a leader who emerged, who was able to galvanize the masses they would take him/her out before anything crystallized.
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Sanders
post Aug 12 2009, 12:44 PM
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QUOTE (JimMac @ Aug 16 2009, 09:26 AM) *
...Take this for example: " 9/11 is such an enigma, because the truth of what happened, if you look at it and think about it logically for any length of time, is so clear ... yet the critical mass of the entire world is under some kind of spell and can't wrap their collective mind around it. Behold the power of the beast."

How spot on is that? Terribly...

And the movement described as "a herd of cats". That's what it is, precisely.

You used the word logical. I have done this over and over again, tried to reason out the existence of the NWO, the actors, the steps, and where this going. Am I wrong? Or is it correct to say we spend the greater part of our energy doing just this? It's so counter productive when the truth is hidden in such plain view.

Has anyone written the book, 9/11 for Dummies... maybe someone here should. You get my vote for that...


We ARE a herd of cats. If that's what we want to be, then everyone is happy ... the truthers, the banking elite. If not, then someone with the qualifications and requisite knowledge, who is not deceived and has earned the respect of truthers en-mass, must put out the required effort to organize a more unified front with specific goals to effect enough results to turn back the banksters' agenda ... before we all get chipped.

As for 9/11 for dummies, I fear that the rabbit hole is a little too deep. But for what it's worth, I've finished a rough cut of part 7 of my flick ... dealing mostly with Japan and the rise of Communism ... Google doesn't allow uploads anymore, so it may take me a while to find an alternate medium to upload it ... will post when I do.
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painter
post Aug 12 2009, 02:07 PM
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QUOTE (JimMac @ Aug 12 2009, 08:26 AM) *
And the movement described as "a herd of cats". That's what it is, precisely.


Yes but I think it is more blessing than curse. I've always thought so. I'll never forget -- although I find it impossible to describe -- what was going on on the first Loose Change forum after May of '06. LC2E was reaching its target audience -- many people (many of them quite young) -- who had not given much thought to 9/11 at all. It provided a quick historical context for the events of that day and went on to show quite a few anomalies, many of which (unlike those of us who were down the rabbit hole from the beginning) the majority of LC2E's audience had never seen before. Never mind that it contained both misinformation and disinformation: It had a stunning effect of alerting a greater number of people to the 'emergency' of the situation than anything else had done before.

I went to the forum knowing that there would be a flood of people, mostly young, showing up basically saying "WTF, is this for real?" and "you people are all nuts!" and etc. Most of them would still have sleep not yet rubbed from their eyes and would quickly go back to sleep again if they didn't find something there that would guide them to further inquiry. Others, of course, came for the sole purpose of casting seeds of doubt into the mix. Quite a few of us 'old timers' on this forum were there so I needn't recount the insanity that ensued for them. At the time one of the things I was saying is, "at least we know this is not a completely 'handled' operation -- it is too out of control and insane for that." That it was disrupted and disruptive intentionally by some I have no doubt.

I've said on this forum repeatedly that the best way to thwart a revolution is to lead it. I believe history has born this out. There are, of course, trustworthy and honorable men. But what we are dealing with here -- intelligence and counter-intelligence operations -- can compromise even the most honorable among us. All that is necessary, as I've said, is to get one to believe something that isn't true and, from that, attitudes and actions are based. The problem is that so much of what we believe, even about ourselves, isn't true that all of us are far more compromised than we care to know.

SO... what to do about all this? One essay I like to link to is this one: http://www.onlinejournal.com/artman/publis...ticle_203.shtml It is five years old now but still a good introduction to our political predicament.

The thing to be kept in mind is that the struggle for liberation isn't anything new. We are, essentially, ruled by gangs of thugs -- and have been for a very long time. Occasionally they (or some powerful group of them) find it necessary to shock us into accepting significant changes to our pre-established programming. Whether it is burning Rome and blaming it on the Christians or blowing up the WTC and the Pentagon and blaming it on AQ, false-flag operations have a long and affective history as social drivers. But the fundamental question in my mind is why is it we're so susceptible to these operations -- how is it that we are so suggestible that a figure clad in the appropriate symbols of authority (uniform, suit, tie and American flag lapel pin, etc.) can persuade us to accept the absurd? Indeed, not merely "absurd" but INSANE. At their base, the elite of this world believe it is not only their divine right, but their divine obligation to "shepherd" the masses -- and if that means sacrificing some or even a large portion of them on the alter of some 'greater good' only they have eyes to see and ears to hear, so be it. The simple problem is that most of us go along with this either out of intimidation or simply that we're unable to see through the veil of lies and mystique they spin around us. We give up our power, individually and collectively, to "leaders" who are often themselves only pawns in an on-going cynical struggle for power, wealth creation and market control. So far as they are concerned, our willingness to go along with all this is only proof positive that they have the 'divine right' to do what they do. Ultimately, as it is said, we get the 'government' (control) we deserve.

What I've been witness to over the last sixty + years of life on this planet is that we -- by which I mean all humanity -- are now on the cusp of something very, very big. Like fish in the sea, it is very difficult for those of us who are in it to 'see' it for what it is. Yes, we are all prisoners on this planet and the only thing we can hope for now is 'escape'. If you really employ that metaphor and take it seriously (for example, accept the fact that most of one's fellow prisoners are unaware that they are imprisoned and are quite fine with their 'quarters' -- you know, Plato's allegory of the cave; the allegory of 'the Matrix' and all that) then it all begins to make a bit more sense. As the author of the linked article above states, all this means, "being wise as serpents, and gentle as doves." That is, never losing track of the fact that we are prisoners, that our jailers are everywhere -- including our fellow inmates and including our own internalized sense of identity. Never losing track of the primary aim, which is to escape. Nothing else, no further modification of the prison environment, is going to make it any less a prison for us. So called "revolutions" within the prison have come and gone repeatedly and every time those prisoners who managed to elevate themselves became the new guards, subservient to an invisible administration. Perhaps they improved living conditions for the prisoners (or not) but the prison still stands.

I think this is the cusp, the rim of a true revelation, we're now standing on. Humanity is now either going to liberate itself from the shackles placed upon its genuine birth right and possibilities OR it is going to further devolve into a Borg-hive where noble principals such as love, truth, beauty, freedom -- those sorts of human qualities that are the mainstay of our birthright -- are removed from us completely. In a cosmic play of the proverbial "use it or loose it," we're either going to begin to manifest these qualities -- bring them into existence and use them to bust out of this hell-hole we've allowed to form around us and within us -- or we're going to transform ourselves into ruthless biotechnological slugs. I really don't see much "middle ground" here. << This latter option, I can assure you, will not be met with kindly by the interstellar community that has kept us isolated from it for so long. You can read that as lunacy, fantasy, metaphor or possible fact. Whatever. It doesn't change our situation. Either we become that which is the most noble within ourselves or we devolve.

.
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Sanders
post Aug 12 2009, 02:54 PM
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Good to read from you, painter. Always a pleasure. (Well, the topic isn't pleasurable, but the way you put your thoughts into words is satisfying.)

I was thinking today, all this, ALL "THIS" (the shopping centers, the paved roads, the escalators, the high-rises, the ATM's, the convenience stores ... etc.) is "theirs". They conjured it. They created it. They know it. They undoubtedly feel privileged in that knowledge, that they can do what they see fit with "civilization", to accommodate (their image of) the future.

Are we OK with that? If so, are we OK with what they have in mind? (People chipped to track their transactions and their whereabouts.) If not, are we OK with starting fresh without their infrastructure? Because the infrastructure is THEIRS. If we want freedom from that, we better be prepared to start fresh, independent of the banks, the shopping malls, the convenient stores, indeed the whole system which imperviates every crevice of our lives.

That's ignoring the obvious question, even if "we", collectively (which doesn't exist), wanted to, could we??? If half of the population really understood 9/11 and understood who and what was behind it and how they themselves contributed to the guilty system with every dollar they borrowed or spent, and turned it off like a spicket, the infastructure would collapse and we ... well, we'd be f$*ked. But we'd be kind-of free, and would have a sliver of a chance of starting fresh ... that is, if liberty minded privateers could step into the void faster than the already rich and positioned and savy could get there before them ... and on top of that, the laws regulating business have been totally squewed to disadvantage the small guy .... see what I'm getting at? We are so f&*cked at every level. Big business has totally rigged the game. Welcome to the game ... it's a sufferable game, they try not to overtax so much that people quit trying to survive and just chuck it, and there's plenty of convenient shopping at your fingertips ... but beware, they might kill some of you from time to time to provide impetus for war - (but, remember, war to help provide cheap oil and convenient shopping for you!!!! (and profits for them ... heart). )

Obviously what I'm getting at is both hypothetical and whimsical, but it might shed some light on what we're up against. If one wants to make minor adjustments to the system, or hold certain people accountable for certain things, even 9/11, they might, at great expense, be successful, but it won't even put a dent in what really ails us. If we abolished the FED and other central banks and thoroughly educated the entire world as to the activities of these nefarious forces and their techniques, then we'd have really gotten somewhere. That would be a good goal, IMO.
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painter
post Aug 12 2009, 03:34 PM
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QUOTE (Sanders @ Aug 12 2009, 11:54 AM) *
Obviously what I'm getting at it both hypothetical and whimsical, but it might shed some light on what we're up against. If one wants to make minor adjustments to the system, or hold certain people accountable for certain things, even 9/11, they might, at great expense, be successful, but it won't even put a dent in what really ails us. If we abolished the FED and other central banks and thoroughly educated the entire world as to the activities of these nefarious forces and their techniques, then we'd have really gotten somewhere. That would be a good goal, IMO.

Well, of course, you have it exactly right. Yours is a good description of our outer circumstances. But, of course, you're not going to get rid of the FED unless you somehow neutralize the power held by those who own it. You want to start another world war? Go ahead, get rid of the FED. I assure you, the Rothchild Bank of England will use that as reason for a proxy war between the US and, oh, say China. Whoever. The point is, the main thrust of it would be over in about two hours. The "mopping up" might take a few generations -- but you and I both know they've been at this for a very long time already.

So, where I turn my attention is toward the underpinnings which keep this corrupt outer system in place. What I see is that most people are quite 'fine' with things the way they are -- with the world that has been created for them. You know I've been monitoring and thinking about all this for decades now. It is the "self/world matrix" I sometimes refer to. It isn't ONLY the external social reality construct that IS the problem. It is ALSO the internalized self identification WITH that corrupt system. Our very sense of "self" is enmeshed in it.

The significance of that last point can not be overstated, Sanders. How do you know that you are a citizen of the United States? What does that mean to you? (I'm using this as an example, I could chose from an innumerable pool of them.) If you strip away all the symbolic identification from yourself, what's left? It's all right there in John Lennon's song:

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

Imagine yourself without a name -- especially one prescribed for you by someone else. Imagine no nations, no allegiances, 'nothing to fight and die for', etc. You see the weird thing is our sense of personal identity is so enmeshed with these symbolic representations that we never 'get it' that we are NOT these symbolic representations. I am not "Michael" -- that is just a word shared by a lot of other people. I'm NOT a "citizen" of any nation. What I AM is a complex biological system of energy exchanges that has the potential to become CONSCIOUS in a way that never looses track of the fact that the world I "see" is not the world, but a realm of perception that includes my own self image ("self/world matrix") that has largely been structured by forces external to my own, intrinsic self.

I know, what I write makes people's eyes glaze over in utter consternation but it is really very simple. We have within us the ability to transform ourselves and thereby the world around us. But we never 'get' this. We think we have to transform the 'world' first (never understanding that 'the world' is an extension of our own internalized constructs). No one wants to go here because it means setting aside all the 'conflict' and 'strategies' that play directly into the controller's games. It means 'giving up' all that for a strategy that seems 'impossible' -- or, at the very best, 'untried'.

I maintain there is absolutely NO REASON why we can't attend to our own inner growth of consciousness and the development of being that entails while, simultaneously, working for truth and social justice. In fact, what I'm saying is, we can never succeed at the later UNLESS there is attention paid to this other, inner component.

We may already be beyond the possibility of reconciling the contradictions between the inner-world truth of who and what we actually are (or could become if we'd just pay attention) and the global, outer world theme park prison you so eloquently describe. That's why I've indicated we're at a decisive turning point in the history of human life on this planet. We either grow or we 'die' (either literally or, perhaps worse, from the point of view of the possibility of actualizing our conscious potential).


.
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Sanders
post Aug 12 2009, 03:52 PM
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Point well taken, Michael. I, living in a foreign country (VERY foreign I might add), reflect on such things regularly.

But i was imprinted with a sense of self as an American, and what the country stood for (as taught to me and as I learned from books) at an early age ... I don't consider that nostalgic silliness, because even without it I think anyone would yearn to be left alone and be free from tyranny, which is the ideal that America was ostensibly founded on, however imperfectly.
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painter
post Aug 12 2009, 04:09 PM
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QUOTE (Sanders @ Aug 12 2009, 12:52 PM) *
Point well taken, Michael. I, living in a foreign country (VERY foreign I might add), reflect on such things regularly.

But i was imprinted with a sense of self as an American, and what the country stood for (as taught to me and as I learned from books) at an early age ... I don't consider that nostalgic silliness, because even without it I think anyone would yearn to be left alone and be free from tyranny, which is the ideal that America was ostensibly founded on, however imperfectly.


And of course, so was I.

But that is just it, Sandy! The thirst and hunger for freedom is precisely what I'm talking about. It is an INNATE human quality. True enough it has been circumscribed by certain symbolic references -- but that does NOT negate this inner need for liberation that exists within mankind.

Can you grasp this? I was actually hoping you or someone would bring this up because it speaks to the central core of what I'm trying to convey.

Freedom is a goal, not an actuality (unless you are willing to accept the controller's definition of 'freedom' being brand competition in the market place). The wish to be free is something that comes from within ourselves intrinsically. It is a very strong motivator which then becomes attached to certain manipulated symbols. << It is this last part that is less clear to us.

And what is true of "freedom" is true of so many other human values such as truth, integrity, beauty, love, honor, dignity -- we can go down the list. These values are intrinsic in a certain sense but their manifestations get reigned in by a symbol system. Doesn't matter whether it is a national identity, a cultural identity, a religious identity -- all these are symbol sets.

Now AS symbol sets they aren't a problem. The problem arrises when we mistake the symbol set for that which it represents. Wrap your head around that one. I know you can.
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JimMac
post Aug 12 2009, 04:30 PM
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I just want to interject with one little point, to document it, 'cause I am reading Painter's 'one essay to read' link for the second time today.

from Paranoid shift By Michael Hasty

" .. Especially after he died so mysteriously, why shouldn’t we believe the late CIA Director William Colby, who bragged about how the CIA “owns everyone of any major significance in the major media?..”

And;

Arron Brown's first day broadcasting for CNN was September 11, 2001.

This post has been edited by JimMac: Aug 12 2009, 04:41 PM
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painter
post Aug 12 2009, 05:09 PM
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Since you opened this up, Sanders, I'm going to take it a bit further (although you may reply before I complete this).

There isn't anything intrinsically "wrong" with symbol sets. The problem is we don't see them for what they are and this leads us into all sorts of problems. We're constantly mistaking the "map" for the "territory," the "symbol" for that which it represents. [As an artist, this is fundamental. The artist employs symbols to represent certain concepts. A "good" artist (that is, one who expands the range of artistic expression) is able to separate this out consciously. In fact, to "see with the artist's eye," (speaking in visual art terms), one has to attempt to "see" what is actually there NOT filtered through the previously established symbols sets used to describe the concept. (Doesn't matter whether the "concept" is a representation of some object or something more abstract, such as an idea or emotion or experience, or some combination thereof.)]

Yes, we've all been imprinted with these symbol sets. The work to be done consciously is to re-establish a direct connection with the underlying, intrinsic value that has been circumscribed (and thus limited and controlled by) that set. When I touch this in myself, when I see that the hunger for freedom (for example) is something intrinsic within myself, when I experience it directly as an energetic force that has depths and dimensions that go beyond the confines of the symbols used to represent, limit and control it, then, in point of fact, I become a bit more "free." I become a bit more "myself" as opposed to an identity that is entangled in a set of symbols. I say "I'm not an American" -- not because I haven't been programmed to be one (apple pie, hamburgers and all); but because I understand that this identification is just that "an identification". It is NOT who and what I actually am. Who and what I actually am is independent of ALL that. My BEING is not dependent upon it.

Now, my "being" IS dependent because I am not an autonomous system of energies. Life is energy transformation so "I" exist in relation to all the energies that come into and are transformed by my the total field of energy represented by my body, mind and emotions. Thus what "I" am is a complex set of energetic relationships that INCLUDES direct and symbolic (indirect) interactions with others like myself. If I really let this begin to become my foundational experience of being in the world, everything necessarily changes -- my sense of 'self' (who and what I am) and my sense of 'world' (what is and is not 'myself'). Thus these 'boundaries' shift considerably. Gregory Bateson, a cybernetic theorist I studied fairly closely 30 years ago (and met a couple times) had quite a lot to say about this. The way he put it is, "news of a difference traveling in a circuit is the fundamental element of mind." Unpacking that would take volumes but suffice it to say "news of a difference" is a flux of energy and the "circuit" within which it is traveling is the transformational process. Every moment of very day our bodies are being bombarded by energetic stimuli. This is the energy that drives us. Our biggest sense organ is the skin (tactile) and then within that are more specialized sensate receptors. Energy received in these areas is transformed through our biological system into our physical perceptions and these, taken together and structured within the system, are transformed into our perception of the world (and ourselves within it). (I'm leaving aside air, water and physical food for the moment as these are obvious energy sources, where we seldom consider the senses as receptors for energy, although that is precisely what they are.)

Now if it all stops there, that's the end of it. But there is another component -- and that is our ability to be aware of what is taking place within ourselves as it happens. This is an ability we have, but not one that is generally identified or developed. For the most part it lies latent because the growth energy it needs most, attention, is mostly diverted to the incessant maintenance of the sensor referencing system. That is, our model of the world around us with our sense of self embedded.

But something extraordinary begins to happen when conscious attention, an energy in its own right, is applied to itself. This becomes a new 'feedback loop' or 'circuit' of information to be transformed. << THIS, it is my contention, is where our true power lies. It is basic, fundamental, innate. And it is THIS that we are perpetually robbed of by the proverbial "powers that be." This is the ONE thing they hope we never discover because if we do, their reign of tyranny will end. We will no longer be susceptible to their symbolic entrancements.

Ever notice the relationship between "spelling" and "spell" -- or "art" and "artifact" and "artificial"? -- Whoever controls your perception of reality -- especially your 'self/world matrix' -- controls you. It is real magic; black magic. We of the Truth movement are always talking about "sheeple" and "waking up," but have YET to realize the depth of the hypnosis that keeps us bound. Even AJ doesn't get it although he rants about it all the time. He needs to STFU for a few hours a day and just pay attention. There IS a way out of this mess -- but it isn't going to come with some hypothetical mass revelation about 9/11 alone. That's just a glimpse down the rabbit hole. The real work of liberation and transformation is an inner process -- an inner alchemy -- the knowledge of which has been deliberately kept from you for at least the past four millenniums.

From this point on there is no "esoteric" in that absurd sense of "that which is deliberately hidden from you". Nothing is hidden anywhere anymore. The only thing preventing us from taking hold of it is our own consternation, ignorance and lethargy. You want to be free? Fine! Follow that wish, find and liberate yourself from every shackle that binds you to your secondhand sense of identity. While you're at it turn the power of your attention to the world that has formed around us and recognize that it is an extension of our own SLEEP: A nightmare come true. WE created it -- with our own physical and psychic energy -- and, when we're ready, we can transform it into whatever new vision we're evolved enough to entertain. That, or we can all go marching in lock-step further down the spiraling staircase of hell.

,
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truthmatters
post Aug 12 2009, 10:17 PM
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This thread is very interesting to me. It speaks to my current thought processes.

My eyes did not glaze over - not even once - while reading it. thumbsup.gif
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Sanders
post Aug 13 2009, 06:23 AM
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Great post(s), painter, all well read and considered ... fascinating.

You talked about symbols (including words) to represent things to us, and the tendency for the symbol to become the thing in our minds, the map becoming the terrain as it were. When I was first learning Japanese I had a friend who was fluent in both his native Japanese and English, and I used to ask him constantly, "Hey, how do you say 'blah-blah-blah' in Japanese?" ... and his answer would often be, "hmmm, hmmmm, we don't really say that in Japanese ... no, you can't really translate that.". It used the frustrate the h@ll out of me, and I started to think, Japanese must be a pretty shallow language, not to be able to express these various thoughts which are easy to express in English.

Fast forward 10 years, Japanese friends would ask me all the time, "Hey, how do you say 'blah-blah-blah' in English?" ... and lo and behold my answer would often be, "hmmm, hmmmm, we don't really say that in English ... no, you can't really translate that.".
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painter
post Aug 13 2009, 12:52 PM
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QUOTE (Sanders @ Aug 13 2009, 03:23 AM) *
Fast forward 10 years, Japanese friends would ask me all the time, "Hey, how do you say 'blah-blah-blah' in English?" ... and lo and behold my answer would often be, "hmmm, hmmmm, we don't really say that in English ... no, you can't really translate that."


Yes, and the reason is that different cultures with different languages (not only verbal but all the symbol sets that make up the culture as a whole) literally perceive reality differently. We all assume that we "see" the same reality. It's true we're all looking at and living in the same general field of energy but our experience and interpretation of that field is far more diverse than we ordinarily assume. Of course there are vast areas of overlap between human experience and cultures, otherwise translation would be nearly impossible, but as you point out there are areas without correspondence. As someone who blithely says he's 'from another planet' part of what I mean is that there are very few points of correspondence between what I 'know' to be true on a very deep level and the particularly 'mid-Twentieth Century American hamburger munching farm boy' self/world perspective that has been imprinted upon me since birth.

What I'm finding interesting here, and this isn't directed specifically at Sanders but all who are reading this thread, is that, so far, no one has commented on my suggestion that there could be and I believe needs to be, a relationship between our outer-directed investigations and a more inner, self-directed investigation into the nature of our own consciousness. What do people think about this? I appreciate the interest in my words written here but I'm far more interested in this experiential question.

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Sanders
post Aug 13 2009, 01:16 PM
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Amendum: I had hoped to elaborate more in that last post, but I wasn't in the right mind-frame. My experience in Japan has been quite amazing, and trying. That last post will give you an idea of the brain-aerobics that I went through to finally assimilate into this culture.

Japan is in some ways one of the freest places on earth, and in other ways not "free" at all. Japan has a history of sharp class division, and in feudal Japan the country's inhabitants were taxed to the hilt - they still are. Rights to privacy aren't even recognized, people give out their phone number, which is connected to all of their data, on a regular basis, without even thinking about it. People don't write checks, there are no checkbooks, the gas and phone companies pull people's money out of their account automatically, that's the norm and no one gives it a second thought. I sometimes think that the reason Japan is in other ways so free (if you have the money, you can do almost anything you want here - the police do not carry guns and do not bother people .... the "war on terror" campaign never reached Japan) - is that the Japanese are the MODEL for the international citizen.

So when they come to me asking for 10% of my earnings for a "living tax" (this is apart and separate from income tax - just a tax to live in the area you happen to be...) I rebel. What am I paying for? The roads and traffic lights? It doesn't take 10% of everyone in Japan's income in perpetuity to pay for roads and police and firemen and traffic lights ... it's the welfare state out of control, jobs for the jobless, social security etc., any of which as a foreigner I will not be a recipient of. 10% might not sound like too much, but everything else is taxed to the extent that this is one of the most expensive places to live. But it's the price to live in Japan, and that was my choice. I get that, and I pay the man.

This all relates simply to the concept of freedom as it pertains to one's desire to be left alone and to be able to keep the fruits of one's labor. Of course, the idea of taxing everyone to the hilt to keep anyone from amassing any wealth is as old as the hills, and is not just about sucking money out of the populace - it's also about maintaining the status quo, and preventing the uninvited from rising to the level of kings. What I am talking about is not hard to understand at all, and pertains simply to the physical and to our interaction with the physical world. What painter is addressing is much deeper, and speaks to a different, and possibly more important, freedom. Freedom from the chains that bind our minds.

I'm interested in both - and most fascinated by the latter, of which I have been unwittingly battling for many years, but until I had read your posts painter, was not entirely conscious of.

...................
EDIT: Painter, we cross posted.
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