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Questions From Reopen911 France On Dca-tyson Video

tnemelckram
post Jan 9 2009, 04:31 AM
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Hi Paranoia!

QUOTE
can you please describe more details about the track of 5175?


I've been looking at the radar videos, controller audio and .csv radar data. Here's my description of what the video purports to show.

At 13:32:10, a radar return with Beacon (Transponder Code) "5175" appears at a spot on the line defining the west side of the river. The "AA 77" return crosses that same spot from WSW to ENE and then briefly shows 2 or 3 dots continuing over the river. That same spot is fairly regularly illuminated with a red dot or dots of varying intensity. "5175" quickly starts to move northwest along the DCA take off path used until until 13:30. It starts at 100 feet and never exceeds 1000 feet, always flies at slow speed. It continues northwest until shortly after AA 77 disappears, and then abruptly turns around and returns to and flies past the Pentagon heading south. I cannot recall where it lands, if at all.

From all this, I gather that if the depiction of "5175" is genuine, it is a military helicopter that took off from the Pentagon for some unknown reason. Recall that one of the netword journalists commented that a helicopter had taken off shortly before the incident.
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dMz
post Jan 9 2009, 04:38 PM
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QUOTE (tnemelckram @ Jan 9 2009, 01:31 AM) *
At 13:32:10, a radar return with Beacon (Transponder Code) "5175" appears at a spot on the line defining the west side of the river. The "AA 77" return crosses that same spot from WSW to ENE and then briefly shows 2 or 3 dots continuing over the river. That same spot is fairly regularly illuminated with a red dot or dots of varying intensity. "5175" quickly starts to move northwest along the DCA take off path used until until 13:30. It starts at 100 feet and never exceeds 1000 feet, always flies at slow speed. It continues northwest until shortly after AA 77 disappears, and then abruptly turns around and returns to and flies past the Pentagon heading south. I cannot recall where it lands, if at all.

From all this, I gather that if the depiction of "5175" is genuine, it is a military helicopter that took off from the Pentagon for some unknown reason. Recall that one of the netword journalists commented that a helicopter had taken off shortly before the incident.

That might be informative TN and DbleTrble. First, a little bit on a "typical, current" DoD "utility" helicopter: Sikorsky UH-60

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/uh-60.htm

"Performance Max Cruise Speed
4,000 ft; 95F 152 knots
2,000 ft; 70F 159 knots
SLS 155 knots
VNE 193 knots
Vertical rate of Climb 95% MRP
4,000 ft; 95F 1,550 ft per minute
2,000 ft; 70F 2,750 ft per minute
SLS > 3,000 ft per minute
Service Ceiling (ISA day) 19,1510 ft ???? <<< dunno.gif IMHO- WTF- Chuck!?!?
Hover Ceiling MRP-OGE
95F 7,650 ft
70F 9,375 ft
Standard Day 11,125 ft "

The "5175" code certainly sounds like "normal" helicopter behavior to me (unfortunately my new computer won't run the RADES RS3 software anymore- perhaps JFK can help here on "5175" radar [Mode 3/A and/or C for "civilian" FAA I believe, but military aircraft have other transponder modes too] ).

Now the very interesting part- how many minutes before the Pentagon "events" did this aircraft take off again? And do we know where it eventually landed (and on what)? I wonder if this shows up in any of the audio files.
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tnemelckram
post Jan 11 2009, 07:48 PM
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HI dMole!

As you can probably understand, I'm glad you asked!

QUOTE
Now the very interesting part- how many minutes before the Pentagon "events" did this aircraft take off again? And do we know where it eventually landed (and on what)? I wonder if this shows up in any of the audio files.


I checked out the FOIA materials and was shocked (shocked! I tell you) to find that they all indicate that it landed on that large apron on the west side of Andrews at 9:51:07. It took off from the Pentagon at 9:32, apparently from the helicopter pad ( I plotted its "5175-3" returns in the DCA Radar .csv files, including its first and last, on Google Earth). The ADW Flight Strips record that this was a UH-1. The pilot makes several communications with various controllers on the audios. The DCA Radar Video shows its entire flight. Here's the details:

The pilot first talks to DCA Local Control at 9:33:52. The call sign is "Muscle 6". The ADW Flight Strips record a number of Muscles, numbered up to 12, that were active that day. Apparently it's part of some group. The pilot is hard to understand so most of what I gathered was in the context of wehat the controllers say.

At 9:38:15 the pilot apparently asks to change his flight because the controller says the change is approved. Shortly after this, the helo, which was heading NW up the Patomac and is just north of Cabin John, turns and heads straight south to the Pentagon. You hear the controllers discussing the explosion at the Penntagon shortly before this exchange.

The helo passes the Pentagon and goes a bit further. At 9:46:15 the pilot says he wants to go to Andrews and requests to cross the DCA airfield. That is approved as long as he crosses south of the tower.

At 9:47:25 the helo is told to contact ADW ground control and the frequency is changed at 9:47:45. The pilot is warned about "PG1" (apparently another helo) flying to the north of ADW.

At 9:49:15 the ADW controller misidentifies it as Muscles 2 while clearing it to land. The pilot asks for an "early berth on 42" which is approved. During the landing, you can hear chatter about the VENUS 22 landing, which is occurring at the same time.

The pilot never says anything about the purpose of the excursion. I wonder whether he had passengers and if so, who they were. At least the guy flying GOPHER6 continued with his stated purpose and went on home to Minnesota. Maybe these guys were doing the business, like VENUS22, which took the further precaution flying a big circle with smaller circles in between and no apparent purpose. You can wonder what VENUS was doing,* but you can't wonder why they changed their minds.

* I think ECM. DO they still drop tin foil or is there some other reason why this thing is on my head?

This post has been edited by tnemelckram: Jan 11 2009, 07:55 PM
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Boonedoggled
post Jan 11 2009, 10:08 PM
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tn pretty much cleared it up. 5175's (MUSCLE 6) Andrews-Pentagon-Andrews flight path with timestamps:




MUSCLE 6 disappeared from DCA radar for a short time while near the Pentagon:




Dble Trble- "At 13:32:37.7, 5175 appears suddenly around Reagan's Area. Note that a tag "1471" seems to take off from Andrew's area at 13:32:19.2 and then dissapear around Reagan. Then 5175 appears around the same area."

I didn't notice the 1471 tag that you mentioned. Did you mean 5174? That's the only code I saw approach from Andrews to Reagan, 1471 is the transponder code for USAir 6511. 5174 is the transponder code for N10CE, a helicopter that flew over Andrews from the east and landed at Reagan National at 9:36:32.
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tnemelckram
post Jan 11 2009, 11:13 PM
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Hi Boone!

Thanks. The FOIA Release stuff is fascinating.

1. I don't attach much significance to MUSCLE 6 disappearing from radar for a short time, standing alone. As I understand it, that is pretty common for low flying aircraft such as helicopters. In fact it's a big plus for the flyover theory. Keeping it from being detected in the first place or scrubbing the data afterward is the easy part. The hard part that I am still grappling with is why people didn't report it (not near the Pentagon but later on during its "flight")(pun intended). I guess the best way is to keep it close to places where people are used to seeing aircraft do weird things like airports and air and other military bases.

2. As you might have guessed, I think VENUS22 is the key to this. You've watched its antics. What's up with that????

3. Did you notice the return labeled "2230-3" that shows up suddenly out of nowhere on the southern part of the DCA Radar Video at about 13:51? Watch it in conjunction with VENUS. Oddly enough, returns for "2230-3" also appear from about 13:27 to 13:28 in one of the raw data files:

http://www.aal77.com/faa/faa09122008/fadar...20711%20CKS.TXT

They didn't translate the x and y coordinates into latitude and longitude so I can't figure out where the aircraft was from 13:27 through 8.
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Boonedoggled
post Jan 12 2009, 12:12 AM
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tn-

1. It looks like it went out of the radar's line of sight:



2. VENUS 22? I have a feeling that we will never know what was going on with him. Maybe...

3. I will give it a closer look.
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paranoia
post Jan 12 2009, 01:10 AM
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just wanted to say thank u to dmole, dbletrble, and tnemelckram for your dissection/analysis of 5174.
much appreciated and much obliged.


regarding the chopper, i could have sworn i saw one on the Double Tree video somewhere (a long time ago), but in the copies i found tonight on youtube, i couldnt spot it. in case anyone's curious, i did a quick search and found a couple of sites (dis/misinfo) with mentions of a helicopter:


http://home.att.net/~south.tower/KCDoubletree1.htm
http://home.att.net/~carlson.jon/Pentagonhelicopter.htm

http://unauthorized link.com/8e6vlo


search for more:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%...o%22+helicopter

but still nothing conclusive.
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DbleTrble
post Jan 12 2009, 03:50 AM
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QUOTE (Boonedoggled @ Jan 12 2009, 03:08 AM) *
Dble Trble- "At 13:32:37.7, 5175 appears suddenly around Reagan's Area. Note that a tag "1471" seems to take off from Andrew's area at 13:32:19.2 and then dissapear around Reagan. Then 5175 appears around the same area."

I didn't notice the 1471 tag that you mentioned. Did you mean 5174? That's the only code I saw approach from Andrews to Reagan, 1471 is the transponder code for USAir 6511. 5174 is the transponder code for N10CE, a helicopter that flew over Andrews from the east and landed at Reagan National at 9:36:32.


My mistake Boonedoggled, UA6511 seems to change to 1471 few seconds before landing.
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DbleTrble
post Jan 12 2009, 05:30 AM
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One of our member, Counter911, has dived into the DCA Tyson vid to map it onto google map. The result is quite frightening !!!!

First of all the red point showing the so-called AAL77, stops around 115 m (370 ft) south of the Pentagon (on the south parking lot area !!)

Here are the last 6 radar returns of LOOK :

RR(1)
Latitude : 3852'7.65"N
Longitude : 77 3'33.98"O

RR(2)
Latitude : 3852'5.60"N
Longitude : 77 3'39.29"O

RR(3)
Latitude : 3851'46.83"N
Longitude : 77 4'28.55"O

RR(4)
Latitude : 3851'30.39"N
Longitude : 77 5'11.39"O

RR(5)
Latitude : 3851'13.87"N
Longitude : 77 5'54.18"O

RR(6)
Latitude : 3850'59.60"N
Longitude : 77 6'30.72"O


Just place marks in Google Map with these coordinates and you will have an idea of the plane trajectory.

Note that the S and LOOK tag still move forward for 19 seconds after the red points stops near the Pentagon.


Now, few words of caution here as the mapping on Google Map is not much accurate. That was Counter911's thinking when he released his results on our forum. But this morning he took the RADES84 vid to compare the last radar return of RADES with the DCA's one.

And here is the result :

Last RADES84 Radar Return :
Latitude : 38 52 05.584 N
Longitude : 077 03 39.502 W

Now take the RR2 (DCA) here above. That gives :
Latitude : 3852'5.60"N
Longitude : 77 3'39.29"O


These 2 points are only 5 m (16 ft) away !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Now taking these 2 points, it is clearly impossible for an aircraft to pass on RR(2) and hit the Pentagon where it has been hit !! See what I mean ...


Counter911 is presently working on a video showing the mapping of DCA LOOK' trajectory on Google Map. I will post it to you as soon as it is available.


Now can we trust, DCA, RADES84 data ? that's the main issue, isn't it ? If so, that would raise some questions, no ?
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Boonedoggled
post Jan 12 2009, 01:07 PM
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QUOTE (tnemelckram @ Jan 11 2009, 09:13 PM) *
3. Did you notice the return labeled "2230-3" that shows up suddenly out of nowhere on the southern part of the DCA Radar Video at about 13:51? Watch it in conjunction with VENUS. Oddly enough, returns for "2230-3" also appear from about 13:27 to 13:28 in one of the raw data files:

http://www.aal77.com/faa/faa09122008/fadar...20711%20CKS.TXT

They didn't translate the x and y coordinates into latitude and longitude so I can't figure out where the aircraft was from 13:27 through 8.


tn, I'm having trouble getting the video to upload properly so I can't see what you are referring to. Transponder code 2230 is assigned to Air Canada Flight 942 (ACA942). Does that help?
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tnemelckram
post Jan 12 2009, 01:32 PM
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Transponder code 2230 is assigned to Air Canada Flight 942 (ACA942). Does that help?

I that was the case on 911 it would help a lot because it is likely not to be worth much more worry. Is there some information (FOIA, Internet or elsewhere) that confirms this code assignment, so I can look at it and see if I can satisfy my own curiosity?
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Boonedoggled
post Jan 12 2009, 02:18 PM
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QUOTE (tnemelckram @ Jan 12 2009, 11:32 AM) *
I that was the case on 911 it would help a lot because it is likely not to be worth much more worry. Is there some information (FOIA, Internet or elsewhere) that confirms this code assignment, so I can look at it and see if I can satisfy my own curiosity?


Here's the link, look for the 130413.0 timestamp on the left.
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tnemelckram
post Jan 12 2009, 04:43 PM
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QUOTE
Here's the link, look for the 130413.0 timestamp on the left.


Thanks Boone.

I did a "find" search through the document and the ACA942 Code assignment 2230 appears at regular time intervals. It does not appear to be untoward. Although I am going to take another look to confirm the source of the document, I'm assuming that it was a record from some type of regional flight control for a through flight, which might explain why it doesn't show up on the DCA records or radar - it wasn't DCA's concern.

This caught my interest because of how the reappearance juxtaposed with VENUS22's antics. I've called back the Marines.
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dMz
post Jan 12 2009, 05:22 PM
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An old Huey eh? amazed! would be the guy to talk to there- I think he drove one to "work" in an Asian country.

A bit about the venerable old UH-1:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/sys...rcraft/uh-1.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/sys.../uh-1-specs.htm

Photos:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/sys...t/uh-1-pics.htm

EDIT: The way I heard it, those old "whirlybirds" simply didn't know when to fall out of the sky (I've seen some pretty amazing photos of some awfully "shot up" Hueys).
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tumetuestumefais...
post Jan 14 2009, 10:53 AM
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QUOTE (dMole @ Jan 6 2009, 05:04 PM) *
FWIW, there was a John Farmer, Jr. serving as Senior Counsel on the 9/11 Commission. The "John Farmer" hosting that website is believed to be an SPC Engineer, not an attorney (or very briefly Governor of New Jersey).
http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?e...y=john_farmer_1

Hmmm... Christine Todd Whitman again:

John Farmer Jr. Wiki..
CODE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Farmer_Jr.
[the link has punctuation and won't work]

Thanks dMole for the clarifying the John Farmer. So its completely somebody else. Good to know it. So I appologize for my inaccuracy. wall.gif sweat.gif
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dMz
post Jan 14 2009, 11:05 AM
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Well Tume, at this point I've heard a phone recording of a voice alleged to be the "Blue Collar Republican," and that's about all I know about this character anymore (except his math didn't check again recently, and he appears to like LaTeX over substance).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaTeX

He appears to be taking some "lumps" here and on a couple of other websites though, from the little bit I've seen. Funny thing- blanket denial/dismissal can only get one so far, even in Amerika. Even Rumsfeld had to "pay the piper" lately.
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