Pentagon Damage Analysis, split from Leo Titus thread.

post Mar 17 2007, 09:56 PM
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thanks for the info about the sprinklers merc. i did some looking around, and here is what i found:

repeatedly and at many sites, the info about sprinklers at the pentagon is quoted specifically from an LA Times article. This site has a direct link to that article:

"The fire that swept through the building caused the greatest damage in an unrenovated section with no sprinkler system, heavy windows or steel reinforcements. But many of the offices there were empty in anticipation of the renovation.

While perhaps 4,500 people normally would have been working in the hardest-hit areas, because of the renovation work only about 800 were there Tuesday, officials said. [LATimes]"

but when you go to the la times link, its no longer active:

so no luck there. but here it is from the horse's mouth (evey lee walker):

DoD News Briefing on Pentagon Renovation - Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 11:00 a.m. EDT
"Fire sprinklers. Interestingly, you know, there was a fire that raged through wedge two, the unrenovated area. If you look at wedge one, except in those areas where it was clearly fueled by jet fuel, the fire, when it tried to spread into other wedge one areas, was knocked down immediately by the fire sprinklers. There was virtually no spread whatsoever, so we saw a tremendous beneficial effect from that."

This is what it would read like, MINUS the stipulations between the commas: "If you look at wedge one, the fire, was knocked down immediately by the fire sprinklers." Ok, simple, right? but what about the stipulations: "except in those areas where it was clearly fueled by jet fuel, the fire, when it tried to spread into other wedge one areas, was knocked down immediately by the fire sprinklers."

well "those areas" where the fire was "clearly fueled by jet fire" are supposedly everywhere, but i think walker is referring to the outtermost edge of wedge 1, closest to the entry hole, right? so the rest of wedge 1, the deeper sections are where the sprinklers worked, and the pics of the L columns (below) corroborate this. so where is the rest of the plane? people from the tail section of the plane were found piled up near this area, so how did they get there? assuming a giant mass of bent and mangled machinery and metal, coupled with inertia and momentum brought those bodies to this location, shouldnt some major pieces have survived, since in fact the sprinklers WERE WORKING at this location?

you can see that the sprinklers (at least in the area near these 2 N-level columns) DID in fact work:

location of these poles:

notice the poles (7L 9L) show soot/smoke residue, but you can also see where the water was running down these columns from the top, hence the non-burned and non-smoked (white colored) areas at the top and sides of these columns. so the sprinklers were in fact working in this section at least, of wedge two. since the majority of bodies (and presumably the plane) ended up very near to this area (second wedge, adjacent to 7L & 9L), and the sprinklers worked to squelch the fire, then how come more wreckage didnt survive? especially the biggest, strongest pieceS of the plane, such as the landing gearS and wheel hubS, where are they? is it possible they did survive, but werent photographed and/or presented into the public record? i doubt it, but here are some possibly relevant details:

post-attack project to rebuild, the Phoenix Project:

the above page has a set of links on the right which direct you to news stories about the events of 911. now remember this is an official site (homepage: http://www.whs.mil/ ), but they link the visitors to their to news articles (not DOD releases) as their set of "facts":

September 12, 2001 Posted: 1:11 PM EDT (1711 GMT)
"Around the area of impact along the building's perimeter, where a section of the building collapsed, FBI evidence teams found parts of the fuselage from the Boeing 757, Tamillow said. No large pieces apparently survived...

...Agents also were looking for the plane's black box and flight data recorder...

...But many corridors ended in blacked-out hallways. Yellow tape and Defense Department policemen warned people away..."

so no large pieces survived according to what the WHS themselves point to as "fact". also take note of the areas that were OFF-LIMITS to everyone. they say "Defense Department policemen", but im not sure who they are referring to: is that the pentagon police? but it is stated that people were indeed kept from parts of the site, even if it was under the guise of protecting them from structural danger. anyhow, a closer look here:

(scroll to bottom- each and every column is identfied)

if you scroll to the bottom of the above page, you will see each and every individual column identified and its damage specified. a closer look reveals an omission that suggests that (at least) the deepest part of the pentagon was indeed closed off to even insiders (like the asce). as you get to the deepest areas inside (near the N columns), close to where the majority of passenger's DNA was found, you will see that even the ASCE had to take the pentagon's word for the alleged damage.

on the ASCE's itemized column list you will see that there are NO PICS of these deepest poles (1N, 3N, 5N). instead there is this quote " Damaged (Per FBI)":

the lack of pics and the asce's referrence to the feds suggests (to me) that these areas were kept CLOSED to everyone, including rescuers and engineers. so if its a question of access to the scene, then it was limited. not only did this prevent/preclude relevant parties from witnessing and confirming the damage, but this also would have allowed those with ill-intent to perpetrate whatever fraud or subterfuge they deemed necessary to support their lies (imo).

i have to point out however, that while searching, i actually found a pic of column 3N, on rense.com:

Sarah Roberts (the author of the above rense article) states:
"Unfortunately, such images are very hard to come by since: (1) Much of the debris was burned and torn beyond recognition, (2) Most FEMA photos in the public domain were taken on 9/14/01, after much of the debris was cleared out of the building, (3) Most other photos remain in the private hands of investigators, rescue workers, and others who were inside the building. Many images are officially classified. The following article attempts to bring together all known images sent to me or in the public domain that show aircraft debris inside the Pentagon. The images were either found online or sent to me by recovery workers to be used with permission."

so no specific sources are mentioned for the 3N column photo, but we can see that in the public domain, an actual picture of this column exists. i can only speculate one of 2 things regarding how this relates to my earlier assertions: either the asce was telling the truth and did not have access to column 3N, or they did have access, but for some unknown reason (no known practical motive thus far) the asce lied or omitted direct mention and/or pics of the three N columns (3N in particular).

the other possibility is that only "special" persons were allowed access to that area, and one of them managed to photograph it. whoever this (possibly) highly privileged person who took the picture was, they forwarded the pic to sarah roberts, but NOT the ASCE. so either the asce is/was not aware of this pic, or for some currently unknown reason, they were aware of it, BUT could not (as in were not allowed to) post the photographs and descriptions of the three N columns.

its worth noting what the ASCE claims was found in that particular area, the FDR:

but a public release from a pentagon official and an arlington county police official (reported friday afternoon: September 14, 2001 1:00pm EDT), is a DIRECT CONTRADICTION of the ASCE's alleged FDR discovery location:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/septem.../wash_9-14.html (only names bridges)
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/1047680.html (also names col.rhynedance)

The two "black boxes," crucial to uncovering details about the doomed flight's last moments, were recovered at about 4 a.m., said Army Lt. Col. George Rhynedance, a Pentagon spokesman.

Rhynedance said the recorders were in the possession of the FBI, and that officials from the National Transportation Safety Board were providing technical assistance in reading any data they contain.

Dick Bridges, deputy manager for Arlington County, Va., said the voice recorder was damaged on the outside and the flight data recorder was charred. But he said the FBI still was confident the data can be recovered from both.

Bridges said the recorders were found "right where the plane came into the building."

"We have the FBI with us and nobody is touching anything they're not supposed to touch," Crawford (Jerry Crawford, leader of a Memphis, Tenn., search team) said. He said that when rescue workers "see something marked secret or sensitive, we leave it alone."

question: who deemed what was "secret or sensitive"? based on what criteria? and who did the marking of these pieces?

more on the fdr recovery:
America Under Attack: Pentagon Holds Conference Concering Black Box Aired September 14, 2001 - 06:33 ET (must read) :
( note - arl. police official bridges is misidentified as a "pentagon spokesman" )

MR. BRIDGES, PENTAGON SPOKESMAN: I don't think it was any surprise where they were found. They were found right where the plane came into the building, right where the data recorder and the voice recorder should have been. They were right at the crash scene.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) deep into the building, or shallow? I mean give us a sense of exactly where.

BRIDGES: I don't know where they were on the airplane, but they probably were very, very close to that particular part if you look at what an airplane image might be inside the building. They were found -- they were pretty much knew where they were by a virtue of where the aircraft came in.

QUESTION: Were they found it in the same location where you were getting a signal from since yesterday?

BRIDGES: We were not ever getting a signal from the black box since yesterday. That was an erroneous report.

quik note, the above statement is referring to this:

"September 13, 2001 Posted: 11:29 p.m. EDT
In Washington, signals are being picked up from a flight data recorder from American Airlines Flight 77, which crashed into the Pentagon, according to one of the search and rescue leaders

back to the rest of the q & a with bridges:
QUESTION: And how difficult was it to actually get the black boxes out what with the surrounding debris around it?

BRIDGES: Well all I can tell you about that is that particular part of the building is extremely fragile. It's unstable. We've been spending quite a bit of time trying to shore up that area. The columns down in the bottom floors are basically gone. And they've been trying to shore it up with wooden beams.

It is dangerous working in there but we are trying to maximize the safety of those personnel in the building when they are working on this stuff.
QUESTION: Did the person who told you that boxes could be damaged but could still yield information give you any kind of idea about when we might find some information or find out how much they might yield.

BRIDGES: Well I think that's probably going to come from the FBI or the NTSB. I mean we've -- the boxes are now in federal hands and part of the federal investigation. Arlington Country, it does no longer have a role in that.

QUESTION: Were the black boxes, though, were they removed immediately with -- from the FBI taken from this location to the NTSB right across the river? I mean is it possible that the sophisticated equipment they have over there is already being used to try to analyze.

BRIDGES: I'm not going to speculate. I frankly don't know.

QUESTION: And we don't know what sort of boxes they were, whether they're analog or digital. So we know..

BRIDGES: There are a voice recorder and there was a data recorder.

QUESTION: They were removed from the scene already?

BRIDGES: Well they've been removed from the crash scene. I do not know where precisely they are other than the fact that they are in the federal authorities hands and they are now apart of a federal investigation.

QUESTION: Is this the first of the four crash sites where they have managed to recover both the flight data recorder and the cockpit voice recorder?

BRIDGES: I believe that is the case. But I'm here for this particular site.

QUESTION: Thank you.

QUESTION: What time were the boxes found again?

BRIDGES: Three forty a.m. OK. Thank you ladies and gentlemen. And we'll be back at 10 a.m, somewhere between 10 a.m. and 11 a.m. for our regular update.

okay i included all of bridges' statements regarding the fdr for posterity and clarity, but what he explicitly states about the fdr's location is that it was found near the entry hole. but for those that wanna argue that his one statement isnt enough and that birdges could be in error, i point to the fact that he describes that it was found near the area which had the most column damage and fire, and that re-confirms that he is definitely referring to the fdr being found near the entry point, NOT the punch out hole (per asce's claim).

so, dont these guys exchange notes? how come they so blatantly contradict each other? and frankly, im not sure i believe bridges' answers. he seems to be unsure of what he is talking about, making vague generalizations and unclear referrences. its almost as if he is regurgitating some b.s. he was told, but didnt fully absorb:

"BRIDGES: I don't know where they were on the airplane, but they probably were very, very close to that particular part if you look at what an airplane image might be inside the building. They were found -- they were pretty much knew where they were by a virtue of where the aircraft came in."

he is talking to reporters and to laymen (the broadcasting audience) as if we know where the fuk an FDR should be located on the plane, even though he himself doesnt seem to. plus he avoids giving an exact location by positioning the fdr as congruent to some unknown/unobvious referrence point. he refers to an exact location: "right where the plane came into the building," and this directly contradicts the asce.

keep in mind the asce uses this supposed fact of the fdr's location to help support their story that the plane caused the very specific damage that it did. the asce establishes the plane breached that far into the building because they knew where on the plane the FDR should have been located - at the back of the plane (unlike bridges). so wtf is bridges talking about? how could such a very conclusive reality of locations be so misrepresented? is it possible the fdr was never found at the pentagon at all? or at least not at the time that bridges released his statements?

what im thinking is this: early in the story, someone's (whatever or whoever was bridges' source of original info) logic was that the fdr is in the back of the plane, but they imagined that the tail section would stop somewhere near the entry hole. thus the report came out that thats where the fdr was found. BUT later, after the official story got its sh*t (somewhat) together, they realized that would have to claim the tail kept going, so the asce "adjusted" their FDR location to fit the "scientific" reality they were/are trying to portray.

but bridges is giving us the "official" word, not some hearsay. presumably he was informed (by who?) that the fdr was found near the impact, so somebody misled or outright lied to him, and he passed that lie on to the rest of the world.

questions to ponder: where was it (fdr) really found? at the entry hole or at the punch out hole? and why the huge inconsistency in the 2 versions of the fdr'z recovery?

some complications arise in my theory, namely that 2 firefighters claim to have found the fdr in the early morning hours. i am looking into that more deeply, to see how the timing of that news relates to the timing of bridges release, as well as where these firemen claim to have found it (fdr). an update will follow...

***more inconsistencies are continued on the next post... (below)
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Aldo Marquis CIT
post Mar 18 2007, 12:01 AM
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This deserves it's own thread.

Very interesting work dood.

Very interesting indeed.
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Posts in this topic
- paranoia   Pentagon Damage Analysis   Mar 17 2007, 09:56 PM
- - paranoia   more contradictions. different versions of damag...   Mar 17 2007, 09:57 PM
- - Merc   P, This deserves it's own thread. Very inter...   Mar 18 2007, 12:01 AM
- - paranoia   thanks merc. i leave it up to a mod/admin to make ...   Mar 18 2007, 01:22 AM
|- - Lanneya-austin   QUOTE (paranoia @ Mar 18 2007, 01:22 AM) ...   May 11 2008, 11:10 PM
|- - FrankyGER   QUOTE (paranoia @ Mar 18 2007, 07:22 AM) ...   May 12 2008, 07:53 AM
- - johndoeX   excellent job paranioa... always love reading your...   Mar 18 2007, 01:36 AM
- - paranoia   thanks much rob for making a seperate thread of th...   Mar 18 2007, 02:06 AM
- - behind   Very interesting. A real research. But I can nev...   Mar 19 2007, 12:36 PM
- - SPreston   Here in this SSG JOHN VALCEANU photo, the fireman ...   Sep 4 2007, 10:49 PM
- - Leslie Landry   Video recorded by a Pentagon security camera, show...   May 25 2008, 04:20 PM
- - paranoia   her name slips my mind often, and a search of the ...   Aug 17 2009, 03:57 PM
- - dMole   NOTE: This thread may need to be split later (inc...   Aug 30 2009, 04:40 AM
|- - dMole   QUOTE (dMole @ Aug 30 2009, 02:40 AM) NOT...   Aug 30 2009, 05:45 AM
||- - dMole   QUOTE (dMole @ Aug 30 2009, 03:45 AM) EDI...   Aug 31 2009, 08:33 AM
||- - brokensticks   QUOTE (dMole @ Aug 30 2009, 09:45 AM) In ...   Sep 17 2009, 02:07 PM
|- - dMole   QUOTE (dMole @ Aug 30 2009, 02:40 AM) ...   Aug 30 2009, 03:10 PM
- - DoYouEverWonder   May I add one more to the collection. I didn...   Aug 31 2009, 09:23 AM
- - dMole   OK, let's go back to the [FEMA/] "ASCE Pe...   Sep 17 2009, 05:54 AM
- - Orson   SOS! I've tried to post comments to 911 ...   Sep 19 2009, 01:09 AM
- - paranoia   QUOTE (orson)SOS! I've tried to post comme...   Sep 19 2009, 03:06 AM
- - dMole   The entire Corporal Jason Ingersoll collection of ...   Sep 22 2009, 01:37 PM

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