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Plane Crash In New York State, 9/11 victim's wife aboard.

Omega892R09
post Feb 13 2009, 08:43 AM
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I am not about to hypothesise but others here may be able to fill in any blanks:

Plane crash in NY state kills 49 - BBC
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paranoia
post Feb 16 2009, 03:37 AM
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im far from anything even remotely close to being a pilot or air craft mechanic, but i have some thoughts/questions.

"ice caused the crash"

it is february and in buffalo at that, so ice isnt exactly unusual, imho. plus the very day/night of the crash, even down here in virginia we were having wind gusts of up to 50 mph. so those two factors (ice/wind), if calculated into the events, might not make a crash out of the norm. frankly, im always shocked that there arent more major crashes in the winter skies, when u consider how many planes are flying around in extreme weather conditions.

but lets assume for a minute, ice was indeed the main factor leading to the crash. in other words, lets assume (hypothetically of course) that ice had indeed managed to freeze on enough of a surface on the craft's wings to render its airfoil inefficient.

the question would then become why? as in - why did the apparatus in place to melt or get rid of that ice, fail? ice itself may have indeed caused the crash, but im not saying the crash isnt suspicious, but that i personally wouldnt look at reports of "ice as the cause of the crash" as being suspicious part of this whole incident.

i think that if someone did sabotage the plane and wanted to make it look like a "natural" occurrence (due to mechanical failure), they would render the anti-ice machinery inoperable, and expect (to a very specifically calculated degree of certainty) that they could/would succeed in crashing the plane, given that it is winter and snowy and wet in where the plane was flying or going to fly. as a an added measure, this saboteur might have also have had in place some way of cutting off the (final) communications of the plane in order to make sure no hints/clues (via cockpit communications) were left behind.

maybe my scenario is a bit too technically demanding or complex and therefore too sensational to execute - i dont know... like i said, im no expert and have very little relevant knowledge about what would be involved on a physical parameters level. but i dont think ice being the culprit is in and of itself something to be suspicious of. ice happens in the winter. but (close to) 99 percent of the planes fly and land safely in the winter cuz corrective/preventative measures are taken and the planes' are equipped to get rid of the ice. so where this plane failed and why (if ice is indeed the cause), is where i think the answer (to what really happened) lies. perhaps someone (here) with relevant knowledge can comment or share some insights into the plausibility (or lack-thereof) of my hypothesis.


the future:

chances are likely some bs explanation for the mechanical failure of the anti-ice devices will be found and given by the ntsb down the road. then it will be up to the plane companies (the carrier and the plane manufacturer) as well as anti-ice device manufacturers to duke it out against the ntsb and to try to avoid taking the blame or fall (given the financial costs involved with such liability/responsibility). the flip side - and the defense possibly, might be blaming it on pilot error or miscalculation, hence the floating of the "auto-pilot" story...


Plane That Crashed Near Buffalo Was on Autopilot,
possible violation of safety recommendations:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=6882782


i guess we'll see.




***



some musings on a seperate but related note:

i also wonder about the miracle on the hudson plane and its AVERTED crash. what if those engines had been sabotaged (not by birds) and some of the passengers on that plane had been targeted for neutralization (death)? but that thanks to the heroic/expert flying of the plane (and its consequent safe water landing) the plot failed? what if some of the people onboard this flight were actually also on the hudson-miracle plane? was there ever a list of all passengers released for the miracle plane? yes, im speculating...

but regardless and seperate of any possible (passenger) connection between the 2 crashes, i personally find the hudson-miracle crash to be much more suspicious than this current one - not because of the amazing landing - but because of the allegation that birds managed to take out both engines of that plane... unlike ice in the winter, managing to hit both engines with birds is very UNUSUAL, to me at least...

meh... just thinking outloud, please dont mind me...

whistle.gif



***

edited to add video:

http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=6881966

(first half blames ice, second half auto pilot)

This post has been edited by paranoia: Feb 16 2009, 03:46 AM
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Posts in this topic
- Omega892R09   Plane Crash In New York State   Feb 13 2009, 08:43 AM
- - DoYouEverWonder   The wish of a 9/11 widow Posted 12/5/04 A member ...   Feb 13 2009, 09:11 AM
- - Ricochet   The lawsuit was not about money, it was for accoun...   Feb 13 2009, 11:54 AM
- - JFK   ATC Audio - http://event.liveatc.net/kbuf/KBUF-Feb...   Feb 13 2009, 12:49 PM
- - jo56   One of Buffalo crash victims met with Obama earlie...   Feb 13 2009, 02:13 PM
- - grizz   A little more information: Beverly Eckert, Bereav...   Feb 13 2009, 02:31 PM
- - grizz   Voices of September 11 My Silence Cannot Be Bo...   Feb 13 2009, 03:20 PM
- - painter   I must say, this is all bloody suspicious coming o...   Feb 13 2009, 04:32 PM
|- - datars   QUOTE (painter @ Feb 10 2009, 12:32 PM) I...   Feb 15 2009, 11:52 PM
- - Ricochet   Final communications. Source. http://network.natio...   Feb 13 2009, 04:54 PM
|- - Graeme   QUOTE (Ricochet @ Feb 13 2009, 08:54 PM) ...   Feb 18 2009, 06:34 PM
- - rob balsamo   The above transcript has alot of errors. For those...   Feb 13 2009, 05:46 PM
- - rob balsamo   ILS 23 KBUF (pdf)   Feb 13 2009, 05:55 PM
- - paranoia   http://www.colganair.com/ http://www.colganair.com...   Feb 13 2009, 06:39 PM
- - paranoia   a list of some of the others onboard the plane: ...   Feb 13 2009, 06:47 PM
- - paranoia   just saw this posted by SmokingGunz over at LCF: ...   Feb 13 2009, 08:08 PM
- - Trismagistus   I'm neither a pilot or an activist, but a rese...   Feb 13 2009, 09:34 PM
- - JFK   http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/578574.html ...   Feb 13 2009, 10:01 PM
|- - kgray1   QUOTE (JFK @ Feb 13 2009, 09:01 PM) http:...   Mar 20 2009, 02:57 AM
- - amazed!   Another one bites the dust...Too Bad. I guess it ...   Feb 13 2009, 10:58 PM
- - Trismagistus   I watched the news tonight. They are missing the o...   Feb 13 2009, 11:26 PM
- - rob balsamo   Colgan 3407 Air Traffic Control Audio and Transcri...   Feb 13 2009, 11:56 PM
|- - Graeme   ATC Audio provided by www.liveatc.net. Transcript ...   Aug 1 2010, 12:40 PM
|- - starviego   Here is more evidence that engine failure, not pil...   Oct 6 2010, 12:09 AM
|- - Graeme   QUOTE (starviego @ Oct 6 2010, 04:09 AM) ...   Nov 11 2010, 12:59 PM
|- - starviego   You can access the documents here: http://www.nts...   Nov 17 2010, 12:39 PM
|- - Graeme   QUOTE (starviego @ Nov 17 2010, 04:39 PM)...   Nov 24 2010, 11:57 AM
|- - Graeme   QUOTE (starviego @ Nov 17 2010, 04:39 PM)...   Nov 24 2010, 12:32 PM
- - rob balsamo   44 guests logged onto this thread currently. Welco...   Feb 14 2009, 12:57 AM
- - painter   Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7890455....   Feb 14 2009, 06:38 PM
- - Trismagistus   At 2300 feet heading 2-6-0 3407 was instructed to ...   Feb 14 2009, 07:02 PM
- - captsly   NOTE WHAT IS SAID AT 31 MINUTES AND ZERO SECONDS.....   Feb 14 2009, 07:37 PM
|- - JFK   QUOTE (captsly @ Feb 14 2009, 06:37 PM) N...   Feb 14 2009, 07:47 PM
- - rob balsamo   Welcome to the forum captsly. Please try to post...   Feb 14 2009, 07:46 PM
|- - captsly   QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Feb 14 2009, 06:46 P...   Feb 14 2009, 11:29 PM
|- - captsly   QUOTE (captsly @ Feb 14 2009, 10:29 PM) s...   Feb 14 2009, 11:46 PM
- - DoYouEverWonder   NYT - In Plane Crash, Loss of Momentum Still a Mys...   Feb 14 2009, 09:55 PM
- - albertchampion   when i was flying my baron, icing was the scariest...   Feb 15 2009, 01:57 AM
- - amazed!   Having never flown the Dash 8, it's a safe bet...   Feb 15 2009, 11:47 AM
- - Trismagistus   In reading the last few posts Im in agreement and ...   Feb 15 2009, 02:15 PM
|- - KP50   QUOTE (Trismagistus @ Feb 16 2009, 07:15 ...   Feb 15 2009, 04:21 PM
|- - Omega892R09   QUOTE (KP50 @ Feb 13 2009, 07:21 PM) I wa...   Feb 15 2009, 06:17 PM
- - DoYouEverWonder   QUOTE Fatal US plane 'was on autopilot' ...   Feb 15 2009, 06:34 PM
|- - nitatutt   The local weather was odd on the 12th. We are al...   Feb 15 2009, 07:35 PM
- - albertchampion   there are many incorrect aspects of this flight re...   Feb 15 2009, 08:48 PM
- - richard cranium   The ABC affiliate here in southern California keep...   Feb 15 2009, 09:26 PM
- - albertchampion   the "on" autopilot aspect of this story ...   Feb 15 2009, 10:07 PM
- - JFK   A cockpit view of the Q-400 from bombardier - http...   Feb 16 2009, 12:41 AM
- - rob balsamo   Steve Nieman is one of our core members and is a C...   Feb 16 2009, 01:28 AM
|- - JFK   QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Feb 16 2009, 12:28 A...   Feb 16 2009, 10:12 AM
|- - rob balsamo   QUOTE (JFK @ Feb 16 2009, 09:12 AM) You a...   Feb 16 2009, 11:38 AM
|- - JFK   QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Feb 16 2009, 10:38 A...   Feb 16 2009, 12:00 PM
- - paranoia   im far from anything even remotely close to being ...   Feb 16 2009, 03:37 AM
- - rob balsamo   Although i hate to do this prior to seeing a repor...   Feb 16 2009, 04:18 AM
|- - paranoia   QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Feb 16 2009, 03:18 A...   Feb 17 2009, 01:05 AM
- - rob balsamo   Found these on another board.... QUOTE METARS for...   Feb 16 2009, 04:44 AM
- - datars   Good Post!!! Nice input from everyone....   Feb 16 2009, 11:19 AM
- - amazed!   This is a classic stall/spin accident, with severa...   Feb 16 2009, 04:06 PM
- - paranoia   ETA: some wreckage that survived: (one of the ...   Feb 17 2009, 01:22 AM
- - rob balsamo   Saw the vid.... interesting... thanks.   Feb 17 2009, 01:40 AM
- - Omega892R09   For those interested in Buffalo/Niagara airport de...   Feb 17 2009, 12:49 PM
- - grizz   Welcome to Pilots!   Feb 18 2009, 06:44 PM
|- - Graeme   QUOTE (grizz @ Feb 18 2009, 10:44 PM) We...   Feb 18 2009, 07:01 PM
- - painter   Wow. Yes, welcome to the forum Graeme   Feb 18 2009, 07:02 PM
- - rob balsamo   ILS Approach plate for KBUF Runway 23. QUOTE (rob ...   Feb 18 2009, 07:18 PM
- - Leslie Landry   FSB reports are stating today that American fascis...   Mar 1 2009, 11:02 PM
|- - Leslie Landry   for some reason..it wont let me post the rest of t...   Mar 1 2009, 11:13 PM
- - Cheri   It is said that flying is safer than driving...wit...   Mar 1 2009, 11:16 PM
- - amazed!   Quite a web you weave LL. Fascinating stuff. If ...   Mar 1 2009, 11:19 PM
- - grizz   Well, if we're going to invoke Sorcha Faal, I...   Mar 1 2009, 11:45 PM
- - Cheri   I find it interesting that out of a group of 911 t...   Mar 1 2009, 11:51 PM
- - rob balsamo   Preliminary is out from NTSB. Not much as expected...   Mar 2 2009, 12:33 AM
|- - Graeme   QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Mar 2 2009, 05:33 AM...   Apr 3 2009, 03:52 PM
- - dMole   A belated hello and welcome Graeme.   Mar 2 2009, 12:53 AM
- - albertchampion   yes, i suppose a sudden flat spin of only downward...   Mar 2 2009, 02:19 AM
- - amazed!   Grizz I am skeptical of the blog you offered. It...   Mar 2 2009, 10:51 AM
|- - grizz   QUOTE (amazed! @ Mar 2 2009, 06:51 AM...   Mar 2 2009, 10:58 AM
- - amazed!   Thanks Grizz.   Mar 2 2009, 11:12 AM
- - rob balsamo   Welcome kgray! By the way folks.. be nice to ...   Mar 20 2009, 03:01 AM
|- - kgray1   QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Mar 20 2009, 02:01 A...   Mar 20 2009, 03:04 AM
|- - rob balsamo   QUOTE (kgray1 @ Mar 20 2009, 03:04 AM) Th...   Mar 20 2009, 03:14 AM
- - dMole   Hello and welcome kgray1. I'm sorry to hear o...   Mar 20 2009, 03:04 AM
- - rob balsamo   QUOTE NTSB Advisory National Transportation Safet...   Apr 28 2009, 12:17 AM
- - Ricochet   Flight 3407 and swine flu connection. FWIW. http:/...   Apr 28 2009, 02:03 PM
- - paranoia   "Buffalo crash: Pilots acted 'just opposi...   May 12 2009, 11:45 PM
- - albertchampion   it is an odd transcript of the cvr. and the propo...   May 14 2009, 12:33 AM
- - Graeme   I see that NTSB are publishing on 3407 already, I ...   May 14 2009, 08:23 PM
- - Graeme   Please analyse and reply with your informed knowle...   May 14 2009, 09:30 PM
- - albertchampion   you are correct about one aspect of this: the alac...   May 14 2009, 09:30 PM
|- - DoYouEverWonder   QUOTE (albertchampion @ May 14 2009, 09:3...   May 14 2009, 09:44 PM
- - rob balsamo   Unfortunately i missed this when it was published ...   Jul 29 2009, 01:48 AM
- - rob balsamo   Colgan Landing Stall Profile http://www.ntsb.gov/...   Jul 29 2009, 02:13 AM
- - paranoia   just wanted to add this overlooked coincedence/iro...   Feb 8 2010, 12:34 AM
- - starviego   If you read the reports of the witnesses on the gr...   Apr 8 2010, 01:11 AM
|- - Graeme   QUOTE (starviego @ Apr 8 2010, 06:11 AM) ...   Jul 28 2010, 05:36 PM
- - truthmatters   I watched the video of the animation. At first I w...   Jul 29 2010, 10:18 PM
- - amazed!   I'm guessing you're not a pilot, and thus ...   Nov 25 2010, 12:09 PM
|- - Graeme   QUOTE (amazed! @ Nov 25 2010, 04:09 P...   Nov 29 2010, 12:55 PM
- - Graeme   I just figured out another reason why I felt a str...   Nov 30 2010, 02:10 PM
- - starviego   The names of 48 of the 50 dead victims were releas...   Dec 1 2010, 10:01 AM
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