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The Vancouver Hearings: Fetzer/cimino/hartwell

woody
post Apr 17 2012, 10:28 AM
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"Jim Fetzer, Dennis Cimino and Dean Hartwell, all of whom will speak at the upcoming Vancouver Hearings in June, have written three articles on Veterans Today that demolish the official 9/11 theory."

http://deanhartwell.weebly.com/1/post/2012...911-theory.html

Ahem...a few words on the three "blitz" articles of our experts:

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/03/13/91...k-is-a-fantasy/ (Cimino)

Basically okay, the best of the three pieces and been discussed here; only the screenshot of the BTS database, a NPT icon illustrating the Holmgrenian "Flight 11 did not exist" nonsense, is a serious blunder.
I objected to this matter at once and learned that the picture was inserted by Fetzer, not Cimino. Yet Cimino, after declaring that he was not responsible for the pictures, was apparently happy with it because it adorns the article until today.


http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/02/20/91...d-video-fakery/ (Fetzer)

A toxic mixture of right and wrong, important and redundant information. I want to concentrate on the "Flight 11 did not exist" or "Flight 11 did not take off from Logan" claims, which are absolutely ridiculous. The path of Flight 11 is the best documented one of 9/11, from the gate departure until about 8:40 (sic!). Claiming that Flight 11 did not exist means to ignore:

ATC radio between Boston Tower/Flight 11
ATC radio between Boston Center/Flight 11
ATC radio between New York Center/Flight 11
Boston Center-NEADS radio
New York Center-NEADS radio
FAA Command Center radio
Dozens of official statements of controllers of Boston Center and New York Center
Dozens of official statements of people working at Boston Airport
etc.etc.

Fetzer overtakes the simple, not to say primitive Holmgren view that all of these documents are faked. Just as an example, the way of Flight 11 taxiing from the gate to the runway is well known since 2001:

Gate 32 - Taxiway A - Taxiway N - Taxiway K - Taxiway S - Taxiway A - Taxiway K1 - Taxiway B - Bravo hold point - Taxiway B - Runway 4R

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/16/national...T-FLIGHT11.html

"Flight 11 never took off?" C'm on.


http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/03/15/th...d-to-flight-93/ (Hartwell)

Dean Hartwell has written a book, "Planes without passengers". I didn't buy it because I don't want to pay for research results which I myself obtained. To be fair, Hartwell seems to have made references to me (Woody Box). Unfortunately, like Fetzer, he puts the research into a NOPLANE environment, which makes no sense at all. And I have to issue a warning to take him serious when he deviates from the Woody Box research. The results are disastrous. Here's an example, concerning the departure of Flight 93:

QUOTE
Hypothesis: After the passengers boarded the plane at the terminal (gate 17), the plane moved forward a short distance and then stopped at the tarmac. The passengers who would make calls deplaned at the tarmac. The pilot then released the brake at 8:28 AM (setting the departure time under ACARS) and moved to taxi, taking off (aka “wheels off”) at 8:42 AM, setting the BTS departure time then. The people remaining on the plane continued in flight after the “crash” in Shanksville.

The callers used cell phones from a ground location, which had a much greater chance of working than calls from the airplane. Some of these calls were recorded and provide proof that calls were made. Alternatively, the calls could have been recorded prior to the flight and played to relatives.

This hypothesis explains the long gap in time between the scheduled departure time of 8:01 AM and the BTS departure time of 8:42 AM. It also explains the other departure time frequently given for this departure (8:28 AM). The passengers likely boarded in anticipation of an 8:01 take-off. The callers then likely got up to leave.


Hartwell doesn't seem to know the difference between gate departure and take-off. According to the BTS database, United 93 departed from the gate at 8:01 and took off (wheels-off) at 8:28. The take-off time is not triggered by releasing the brakes. I've never heard of a plane releasing the brakes when it takes off from the runway. According to my informations, the take-off time is triggered when the landing gear is retracted - makes more sense, doesn't it? Frankly, Mr. Hartwell doesn't seem to know what he's talking about. Everybody is entitled to create a wild hypothesis, but if the hypothesis is refuted at the first strike, it is pretty embarassing.

So this is what we have to expect to hear in Vancouver.

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rob balsamo
post Apr 17 2012, 05:50 PM
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QUOTE (woody @ Apr 17 2012, 11:28 AM) *
According to my informations, the take-off time is triggered when the landing gear is retracted - makes more sense, doesn't it?


Actually, the "take-off time" is triggered when the airplane lifts off the runway. It is triggered by a "Weight-On-Wheels" (WOW) switch.

As the airplane lifts off, the landing gear struts extend and the WOW switch is released triggering a "Wheels-Off" time. When an airplane lands, the landing gear struts compress and trigger the WOW switch for a "Wheels-On" time.

On most planes, the "Out time" from the gate is triggered by the release of the parking brake with Cabin doors closed. The "In time" is triggered when the airplane comes to a complete stop, parking brake set, and cabin door open.

These times are called - Out, Off, On, In... or as pilots refer to it as... OOOI

Hope this helps.
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DeanHartwell
post Apr 18 2012, 10:58 PM
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Woody Box,

It is a pleasure to hear from you. As you pointed out about my book, I reference your work often.

Allow me to display the entire quote from the "9/11 Passengers Paradox" article from Veterans Today:

"...This becomes a realistic possibility because there were two departure times for the flight – 8:28 AM (ACARS) and 8:42 AM (BTS). Phil Jayhan of the Internet forum, Let’s Roll Forums, explains why the BTS, the official record, only shows one:

Why not two different times in the BTS database? We have two separate groups of passengers. One group of people that boarded flight 93 at the terminal boarding ramp. And another group of people which boarded on the tarmac. The way that the **ACARS system works in an airplane is that when the brake is released, whether there is movement to the aircraft or not, it records an away time. The morning of 9/11, there were two of these recorded for flight 93, which might simply be another confirmation that flight 93 picked up two groups of people on 9/11 at two separate locations at Newark International Airport.

Hypothesis: After the passengers boarded the plane at the terminal (gate 17), the plane moved forward a short distance and then stopped at the tarmac. The passengers who would make calls deplaned at the tarmac. The pilot then released the brake at 8:28 AM (setting the departure time under ACARS) and moved to taxi, taking off (aka “wheels off”) at 8:42 AM, setting the BTS departure time then. The people remaining on the plane continued in flight after the “crash” in Shanksville.

The callers used cell phones from a ground location, which had a much greater chance of working than calls from the airplane. Some of these calls were recorded and provide proof that calls were made. Alternatively, the calls could have been recorded prior to the flight and played to relatives.

This hypothesis explains the long gap in time between the scheduled departure time of 8:01 AM and the BTS departure time of 8:42 AM. It also explains the other departure time frequently given for this departure (8:28 AM). The passengers likely boarded in anticipation of an 8:01 take-off. The callers then likely got up to leave.

The usual boarding issues and their explanation for leaving (perhaps illness) and the resulting shuffle to get them out the door on the tarmac stalled some of the time. According to media reports, a witness (NY Giant football player Clayton White who took flight to New Jersey after Monday Night Football in Denver the prior night), saw passengers on the tarmac during this time..."


So, the I used the information from Phil Jayhan about a time triggered by brake release (ACARS records) AND the Clayton White statement to the media about seeing passengers on the tarmac to buttress the hypothesis that people either got on or off the plane at about 8:28 AM. I used the fact that some media reports have the take-off time listed as 8:42. Here BTS shows that the "wheels off" time was 8:28 but does not list the take off time.

Even if you do not agree about the ACARS time, with White's statement, my point about two groups of people loading on United 93, not a particularly important point compared to others I made, remains a solid hypothesis. Same if we disagree about the BTS take off time as White did not denote an exact time.

Dean

http://deanhartwell.weebly.com

QUOTE (woody @ Apr 17 2012, 08:28 AM) *
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/03/15/th...d-to-flight-93/ (Hartwell)

Dean Hartwell has written a book, "Planes without passengers". I didn't buy it because I don't want to pay for research results which I myself obtained. To be fair, Hartwell seems to have made references to me (Woody Box). Unfortunately, like Fetzer, he puts the research into a NOPLANE environment, which makes no sense at all. And I have to issue a warning to take him serious when he deviates from the Woody Box research. The results are disastrous. Here's an example, concerning the departure of Flight 93:



Hartwell doesn't seem to know the difference between gate departure and take-off. According to the BTS database, United 93 departed from the gate at 8:01 and took off (wheels-off) at 8:28. The take-off time is not triggered by releasing the brakes. I've never heard of a plane releasing the brakes when it takes off from the runway. According to my informations, the take-off time is triggered when the landing gear is retracted - makes more sense, doesn't it? Frankly, Mr. Hartwell doesn't seem to know what he's talking about. Everybody is entitled to create a wild hypothesis, but if the hypothesis is refuted at the first strike, it is pretty embarassing.

So this is what we have to expect to hear in Vancouver.



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woody
post Apr 19 2012, 06:59 AM
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Dean,

thanks for your answer.

Big surprise: The BTS page you have linked to doesn't have United 93 listed all.

The whole line has been removed - as if United 93 never had existed.

Fortunately, the gate departure and wheels-off time for United 93 have been spread over the Internet for eight years by now. It has been detected by a certain "Woody" in 2003 when Gerard Holmgren published his notorious "Flight 11 did not exist" piece, based on Flight 11 missing in the BTS database. I took a look at the other flights, especially Flight 93 and Flight 175, detected the wheels-off discrepancy for both of them and posted a note in the comments section of Holmgren's article. This information has now been copied and spread widely. There's a screenshot of the unredacted BTS version including United 93 in a book of German authors Mathias Bröckers and Christian C. Walther from 2011, a bestseller in Germany.

So here are the correct BTS data for United 93:

Scheduled departure time: 8:00
Actual departure time: 8:01
Wheels-off time: 8:28

The actual departure time is the gate departure; the wheels-off time or take-off time is triggered by the WOW switch at the landing gear (thanks Rob). Wheels-off and take-off time are the same. So Phil Jayhan's theory with the plane resting at the tarmac for a while is certainly not correct.

What exactly happened at Newark is still unclear. White's statement is interesting, but I'd like to have independent confirmation for passengers on the tarmac. I personally think there have been two planes adopting the Flight 93 identity, based on the statement of Anthony Mazza who fueled the plane:

http://911woodybox.blogspot.de/2009/09/who...s-co-pilot.html

Dean, you are entitled to speculate what happened, but I prefer to find evidence first and keep the speculation level at a necessary minimum.

The erasing of United 93 in the BTS database is a small bombshell. Looks like a case for Aidan Monaghan.


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woody
post Apr 19 2012, 10:09 AM
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I have to correct myself. I checked the wrong airport (Boston), but Flight 93 departed from Newark, of course, and is still there, with the original data:

Scheduled departure time: 8:00
Actual departure time: 8:01
Wheels-off time: 8:28

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DeanHartwell
post Apr 19 2012, 11:40 AM
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Woody,

Thank you for your helpful information.

As far as speculation goes, perhaps I take analysis from a different angle. I take a situation and write out hypotheses. I present the most plausible on the Internet and get feedback as to flaws the hypothesis may have.

When I have enough confidence in my good hypotheses, I put it into book form laughing1.gif or I write it out in long essay form without calling it a hypothesis.

Take this matter of United 93 and the Newark, airport:

Fact: (original) BTS shows United 93 scheduled and that it took off 8:28 AM from Newark on 9/11
Fact: White quoted in newspapers (now offline) as stating a week after the fact that he saw passengers on TARMAC on 9/11 at approximately the same time and place passengers boarded United 93
Fact: passengers usually board from the airport rather than on the tarmac

Hypothesis: a double boarding took place in Newark for United 93

Issue: Assuming White was correct, what accounts for this irregularity? Yes, the newspaper that made this assertion is now offline but so is the original BTS smile.gif

New information: ACARS time allegedly records when plane hits brakes. This information could help corroborate statement by White as it would account for plane stop before the take off. Thanks to your clarity on take off time, I can now disregard 8:42 as I trust the original BTS.

Questions: IF there was a double boarding (from airport ramp and from tarmac), how would it be recorded or noted? Is there evidence to refute a double boarding?

Dean

QUOTE (woody @ Apr 19 2012, 04:59 AM) *
Dean,

thanks for your answer.


Dean, you are entitled to speculate what happened, but I prefer to find evidence first and keep the speculation level at a necessary minimum.

The erasing of United 93 in the BTS database is a small bombshell. Looks like a case for Aidan Monaghan.

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onesliceshort
post Apr 20 2012, 08:57 AM
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Sorry guys for sticking my fat nose in here....

http://911woodybox.blogspot.de/2009/09/who...s-co-pilot.html

QUOTE
Mazza stated that prior to the passengers boarding flight 93, he had completed fueling the plane and proceeded to the cockpit to inform the co-pilot of the completed task. This has been the standard operating procedure for United flights out of Newark for many years. Mazza entered the cockpit where he handed the fueling sheet to a young Caucasian male, well groomed, brown hair and a white shirt, who was sitting in the co-pilot's seat. The male responded to Mazza by saying thank you and taking the paper from him. Mazza then departed flight 93 prior to the passengers boarding. Mazza stated that this was approximately 30 minutes prior to the scheduled departure time.


The alleged pilots

http://cbswashington.files.wordpress.com/2...pilot.jpg?w=300

http://cbsdenver.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/jason-dahl.jpg

Woody, are there any other witness transcripts regarding airport staff that would have encountered the pilots en route to the aircraft?

Point me in the right direction and I'll have a nosey?

Cheers
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