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Wtc 7 And Sandero, NIST v speculation

onesliceshort
post Mar 5 2012, 12:25 PM
Post #1



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I've seen a lot of threads on the towers being discussed by SanderO on this forum. Lately WTC7 has been discussed. I'm not attacking this person, just his arguments.

First, what exactly did the NIST Report claim regarding WTC7? This is crucial as the NIST Report is the official report on what did and didn't happen to this building. End of story.

Any theorizing or speculation which isn't addressed in what the NIST Report contains is irrelevant.
Any speculation which may exaggerated claims made in the NIST Report is actually a defense of this arrogant rag.

Any other approach to this report is no different to the Stutt/Legge approach to the Pentagon. None of what they claim (apart from being proven erroneous on many levels) has ever benn verified nor is it part of the official narrative. It is irrelevant.

Let's see what the NIST FAQ page claims in light of many questions raised by the report and compare what SanderO claims.

http://www.nist.gov/manuscript-publication...m?pub_id=861610

SanderO claims that fire was a factor. NIST says

QUOTE
The heat from the uncontrolled fires caused steel floor beams and girders to thermally expand, leading to a chain of events that caused a key structural column to fail. The failure of this structural column then initiated a fire-induced progressive collapse of the entire building.
According to the report's probable collapse sequence, heat from the uncontrolled fires caused thermal expansion of the steel beams on the lower floors of the east side of WTC 7, damaging the floor framing on multiple floors.
Eventually, a girder on Floor 13 lost its connection to a critical column, Column 79, that provided support for the long floor spans on the east side of the building (see Diagram 1). The displaced girder and other local fire-induced damage caused Floor 13 to collapse, beginning a cascade of floor failures down to the 5th floor. Many of these floors had already been at least partially weakened by the fires in the vicinity of Column 79. This collapse of floors left Column 79 insufficiently supported in the east-west direction over nine stories.
The unsupported Column 79 then buckled and triggered an upward progression of floor system failures that reached the building's east penthouse. What followed in rapid succession was a series of structural failures. Failure first occurred all the way to the roof line-involving all three interior columns on the easternmost side of the building (79, 80, 81). Then, progressing from east to west across WTC 7, all of the columns failed in the core of the building (58 through 78). Finally, the entire fašade collapsed.


QUOTE
Due to the effectiveness of the spray-applied fire-resistive material (SFRM) or fireproofing, the highest steel column temperatures in WTC 7 only reached an estimated 300 degrees C (570 degrees F), and only on the east side of the building did the steel floor beams exceed 600 degrees C (1,100 degrees F). However, fire-induced buckling of floor beams and damage to connections-that caused buckling of a critical column initiating collapse-occurred at temperatures below approximately 400 degrees C where thermal expansion dominates. Above 600 degrees C (1,100 degrees F), there is significant loss of steel strength and stiffness. In the WTC 7 collapse, the loss of steel strength or stiffness was not as important as the thermal expansion of steel structures caused by heat.


These two videos address NIST's exaggeration and dishonesty regarding these claims (among others)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4dU_p9UTTs...be_gdata_player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFpbZ-aLDLY...be_gdata_player

From NIST again, differentiating between the collapses of the towers and WTC7 (again emphasizing that fire was the cause of collapse.

QUOTE
WTC 7 was unlike the WTC towers in many respects. WTC 7 was a more typical tall building in the design of its structural system. It was not struck by an aircraft. The collapse of WTC 7 was caused by a single initiating event-the failure of a northeast building column brought on by fire-induced damage to the adjacent flooring system and connections-which stands in contrast to the WTC 1 and WTC 2 failures, which were brought on by multiple factors, including structural damage caused by the aircraft impact, extensive dislodgement of the sprayed fire-resistive materials or fireproofing in the impacted region, and a weakening of the steel structures created by the fires.
The fires in WTC 7 were quite different from the fires in the WTC towers. Since WTC 7 was not doused with thousands of gallons of jet fuel, large areas of any floor were not ignited simultaneously as they were in the WTC towers. Instead, separate fires in WTC 7 broke out on different floors, most notably on Floors 7 to 9 and 11 to 13. The WTC 7 fires were similar to building contents fires that have occurred in several tall buildings where the automatic sprinklers did not function or were not present.


QUOTE
Why did WTC 7 collapse, while no other known building in history has collapsed due to fires alone?

Factors contributing to WTC 7's collapse included: the thermal expansion of building elements such as floor beams and girders, which occurred at temperatures hundreds of degrees below those typically considered in current practice for fire-resistance ratings; significant magnification of thermal expansion effects due to the long-span floors in the building; connections between structural elements that were designed to resist the vertical forces of gravity, not the thermally induced horizontal or lateral loads; and an overall structural system not designed to prevent fire-induced progressive collapse.


Getting the hint yet?

NIST WTC 7 Investigation Finds Building Fires Caused Collapse, 08 21 08

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWTDTZJ_gto...be_gdata_player

SanderO claims that "fuel oil systems" contributed (exaggeratedly) to the heat and fires in the building...

NIST says..

QUOTE
Did fuel oil systems in WTC 7 contribute to its collapse?

No. The building had three separate emergency power systems, all of which ran on diesel fuel. The worst-case scenarios associated with fires being fed by ruptured fuel lines-or from fuel stored in day tanks on the lower floors-could not have been sustained long enough, could not have generated sufficient heat to weaken critical interior columns, and/or would have produced large amounts of visible smoke from the lower floors, which were not observed.

As background information, the three systems contained two 12,000 gallon fuel tanks, and two 6,000 gallon tanks beneath the building's loading docks, and a single 6,000 gallon tank on the 1st floor. In addition one system used a 275 gallon tank on the 5th floor, a 275 gallon tank on the 8th floor, and a 50 gallon tank on the 9th floor. Another system used a 275 gallon day tank on the 7th floor.
Several months after the WTC 7 collapse, a contractor recovered an estimated 23,000 gallons of fuel from these tanks. NIST estimated that the unaccounted fuel totaled 1,000 ▒1,000 gallons of fuel (in other words, somewhere between 0 and 2,000 gallons, with 1,000 gallons the most likely figure). The fate of the fuel in the day tanks was unknown, so NIST assumed the worst-case scenario, namely that they were full on Sept. 11, 2001. The fate of the fuel of two 6,000 gallon tanks was also unknown. Therefore, NIST also assumed the worst-case scenario for these tanks, namely that all of the fuel would have been available to feed fires either at ground level or on the 5th floor.


SanderO claims that "structural damage" was a factor along with the fires...

NIST says...

QUOTE
Did debris from the collapse of WTC 1 cause damage to WTC 7's structure in a way that contributed to the building's collapse?

The debris caused structural damage to the southwest region of the building-severing seven exterior columns-but this structural damage did not initiate the collapse. The fires initiated by the debris, rather than the structural damage that resulted from the impacts, initiated the building's collapse after the fires grew and spread to the northeast region after several hours. The debris impact caused no damage to the spray-applied fire resistive material that was applied to the steel columns, girders, and beams except in the immediate vicinity of the severed columns. The debris impact damage did play a secondary role in the last stages of the collapse sequence, where the exterior fašade buckled at the lower floors where the impact damage was located. A separate analysis showed that even without the structural damage due to debris impact, WTC 7 would have collapsed in fires similar to those that occurred on Sept. 11, 2001. None of the large pieces of debris from WTC 2 (the south tower) hit WTC 7 because of the large distance between the two buildings.


QUOTE
Would WTC 7 have collapsed even if there had been no structural damage induced by the collapse of the WTC towers?

Yes. Even without the structural damage, WTC 7 would have collapsed from the fires that the debris initiated. The growth and spread of the lower-floor fires due to the loss of water supply to the sprinklers from the city mains was enough to initiate the collapse of the entire building due to buckling of a critical column in the northeast region of the building.


SanderO claims that the WTC7 substations explained the explosions heard, explained the damage seen by Barry Jennings and Hess and may also have contributed (immensely) to the fires and also the explosion filmed in the lower floors just before collapse.

NIST says...

QUOTE
Did the electrical substation next to WTC 7 play a role in the fires or collapse?

No. There is no evidence that the electric substation contributed to the fires in WTC 7. The electrical substation continued working until 4:33 p.m. on Sept. 11, 2001. Alarms at the substation were monitored, and there were no signals except for one event early in the day. No smoke was observed emanating from the substation.
Special elements of the building's construction-namely trusses, girders, and cantilever overhangs, which were used to transfer loads from the building superstructure to the columns of the electric substation (over which WTC 7 was constructed) and foundation below-also did not play a significant role in the collapse.


Got it?

Relevant videos:

WTC7 on 9/11 - Strange Occurrence Within the Last 20 Minutes - 03:20 mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biIIqKybSZE...be_gdata_player

Explosion heard just before collapse

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-ftINnhT0Y...be_gdata_player


NIST explanation of Jennings/Hess accounts:

QUOTE
The sound levels reported by all witnesses do not match the sound level of an explosion that would have been required to cause the collapse of the building. If the two loud booms were due to explosions that were responsible for the collapse of WTC 7, the emergency responder-located somewhere between the 6th and 8th floors in WTC 7-would not have been able to survive the near immediate collapse and provide this witness account.


In other words, they're liars.

Barry Jennings' account of WTC 7 explosions

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbbZE7c3a8Q...be_gdata_player

Michael Hess, WTC7 explosion witness

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUfiLbXMa64...be_gdata_player

Explosion witnesses

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERhoNYj9_fg...be_gdata_player

Finally, there is no physical proof that heat caused the collapse nor were any steel samples checked for explosive/exotic explosive residue.

QUOTE
Why didn't the investigators look at actual steel samples from WTC 7?

Steel samples were removed from the site before the NIST investigation began. In the immediate aftermath of Sept. 11, debris was removed rapidly from the site to aid in recovery efforts and facilitate emergency responders' efforts to work around the site. Once it was removed from the scene, the steel from WTC 7 could not be clearly identified. Unlike the pieces of steel from WTC 1 and WTC 2, which were painted red and contained distinguishing markings, WTC 7 steel did not contain such identifying characteristics.


So the question is SanderO, if NIST has been reduced to claiming that office fires were responsible for bringing down WTC7, why would you be making exaggerated claims that actually reinforce the report in the same vein as the Legge/Stutt OCT Mark 2 approach to the Pentagon?

If your arguments and speculation are nowhere to be seen in this report they are irrelevant.

This post has been edited by onesliceshort: Mar 5 2012, 12:31 PM
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Posts in this topic
- onesliceshort   Wtc 7 And Sandero   Mar 5 2012, 12:25 PM
- - onesliceshort   Well worth the look. http://www.youtube.com/watc...   Mar 5 2012, 10:52 PM
- - SanderO   One, I agree with the critics of the NIST explana...   Mar 5 2012, 11:51 PM
- - onesliceshort   QUOTE (SanderO)The sub station might have had expl...   Mar 6 2012, 11:10 AM
- - onesliceshort   Where was Larry Silverstein on 9/11? http://www.y...   Mar 6 2012, 12:12 PM
|- - mrmitosis   "Shortly before the building collapsed, sever...   Mar 6 2012, 09:16 PM
- - SanderO   Larry could ask his insurance company for a readin...   Mar 6 2012, 10:23 PM
- - onesliceshort   QUOTE (mrmitosis)In my opinion - it's a hunch ...   Mar 6 2012, 10:54 PM
|- - mrmitosis   QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Mar 6 2012, 09:54 ...   Mar 7 2012, 07:44 AM
|- - mrmitosis   Double-up-agous.   Mar 7 2012, 07:44 AM
- - hdog   Well put oneslice. Only the NIST reports matter.   Mar 6 2012, 11:08 PM
|- - onesliceshort   QUOTE (hdog @ Mar 7 2012, 04:08 AM) Well ...   Mar 6 2012, 11:29 PM
- - onesliceshort   SanderO, I actually agree that NIST's acquiesc...   Mar 6 2012, 11:24 PM
- - onesliceshort   Shapiro also claims that the WTC7 collapse was ...   Mar 7 2012, 10:52 AM
- - SanderO   That would on the order of 200,000 tons falling to...   Mar 7 2012, 05:51 PM
- - KP50   Thanks to OSS for pinning down SanderO on his rele...   Mar 19 2012, 03:55 AM
|- - hdog   QUOTE (KP50 @ Mar 19 2012, 08:55 AM) Than...   Apr 15 2012, 02:46 PM
||- - onesliceshort   QUOTE (hdog @ Apr 15 2012, 07:46 PM) What...   Apr 24 2012, 11:34 AM
||- - elreb   QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Apr 24 2012, 05:34...   Apr 24 2012, 09:13 PM
||- - onesliceshort   QUOTE (elreb @ Apr 25 2012, 02:13 AM) I c...   Apr 26 2012, 10:44 PM
||- - elreb   QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Apr 26 2012, 04:44...   Apr 27 2012, 01:49 AM
||- - kawika   QUOTE (elreb @ Apr 25 2012, 03:49 AM) Mos...   Apr 27 2012, 11:15 AM
||- - elreb   QUOTE (kawika @ Apr 27 2012, 05:15 AM) At...   Apr 27 2012, 12:26 PM
||- - kawika   QUOTE (elreb @ Apr 25 2012, 02:26 PM) Thi...   Apr 27 2012, 01:33 PM
||- - elreb   QUOTE (kawika @ Apr 27 2012, 07:33 AM) Th...   Apr 27 2012, 03:16 PM
||- - kawika   QUOTE (elreb @ Apr 25 2012, 05:16 PM) htt...   Apr 27 2012, 04:35 PM
||- - elreb   QUOTE (kawika @ Apr 27 2012, 10:35 AM) Li...   Apr 27 2012, 05:01 PM
||- - kawika   QUOTE (elreb @ Apr 25 2012, 07:01 PM) I k...   Apr 27 2012, 05:59 PM
|- - elreb   QUOTE (KP50 @ Mar 18 2012, 09:55 PM) Than...   Apr 15 2012, 06:04 PM
- - SanderO   OSS, Are you supporting NIST's report and cla...   Apr 15 2012, 07:03 PM
|- - SanderO   RE: Wtc 7 And Sandero   Apr 17 2012, 11:00 AM
|- - SanderO   RE: Wtc 7 And Sandero   Apr 17 2012, 11:01 AM
- - Tamborine man   The 'non-fakery people' will of course claim this ...   Apr 16 2012, 01:53 AM
|- - kawika   QUOTE (Tamborine man @ Apr 14 2012, 03:53...   Apr 16 2012, 11:46 AM
- - SanderO   When a steel structure comes down, you have to des...   Apr 16 2012, 07:30 AM
- - paranoia   the original poster of the original version of tha...   Apr 16 2012, 03:08 PM
- - SanderO   OSS... You can read up on the analysis of the col...   Apr 16 2012, 03:59 PM
- - kawika   Here is the Con-Edison testimony about the feeders...   Apr 16 2012, 05:02 PM
|- - 23investigator   QUOTE (kawika @ Apr 17 2012, 06:32 AM) He...   Apr 16 2012, 08:16 PM
|- - 23investigator   QUOTE (kawika @ Apr 17 2012, 06:32 AM) He...   Apr 16 2012, 08:24 PM
|- - SanderO   Not exactly. Con Ed was not responsible for power...   Apr 16 2012, 09:10 PM
|- - kawika   QUOTE (SanderO @ Apr 14 2012, 11:10 PM) T...   Apr 16 2012, 09:42 PM
- - SanderO   There are absence of photos of the sub station mea...   Apr 17 2012, 04:54 AM
|- - kawika   QUOTE (SanderO @ Apr 15 2012, 06:54 AM) T...   Apr 17 2012, 10:50 AM
- - SanderO   RE: Wtc 7 And Sandero   Apr 17 2012, 11:01 AM
- - kawika   What happened? Post 32, 33, 34, vacant. Please s...   Apr 22 2012, 10:20 PM
|- - SanderO   QUOTE (kawika @ Apr 22 2012, 10:20 PM) Wh...   Apr 23 2012, 03:53 PM
- - SanderO   I have no idea... My theory... a theory is base...   Apr 23 2012, 03:21 PM
|- - kawika   QUOTE (SanderO @ Apr 21 2012, 05:21 PM) I...   Apr 23 2012, 08:24 PM
- - SanderO   Thank you for posting this video. If you study it...   Apr 23 2012, 11:04 PM
- - SanderO   Kawika... your research made my day... the video a...   Apr 23 2012, 11:28 PM
|- - kawika   QUOTE (SanderO @ Apr 22 2012, 01:28 AM) K...   Apr 24 2012, 05:03 PM
- - SanderO   Government loyalist? How'dya come up with tha...   Apr 24 2012, 02:18 PM
- - onesliceshort   QUOTE Government loyalist? How'dya come up wit...   Apr 24 2012, 03:51 PM
- - SanderO   You can't see but 10 feet into the building wh...   Apr 24 2012, 06:14 PM
- - onesliceshort   QUOTE The theory of collapse of B7 that I have pro...   Apr 24 2012, 07:01 PM
- - SanderO   OSS, There's an awful big difference between ...   Apr 24 2012, 07:39 PM
- - onesliceshort   QUOTE There's an awful big difference between ...   Apr 24 2012, 10:10 PM
- - SanderO   CD is pure speculation... as far as I am concerned...   Apr 25 2012, 06:32 AM
- - onesliceshort   Can somebody else have a go at explaining to Sande...   Apr 25 2012, 09:00 AM
- - SanderO   OSS, I presented my *theory*. It happens to align...   Apr 25 2012, 11:30 AM
- - SanderO   I would like to see the actual reports of the fuel...   Apr 25 2012, 11:32 AM
- - onesliceshort   QUOTE (onesliceshort)You're actually trying to...   Apr 25 2012, 10:02 PM
- - SanderO   OSS, I am not sure what you are reading in me. I...   Apr 26 2012, 07:40 AM
- - onesliceshort   QUOTE (SanderO)I don't know the technical back...   Apr 26 2012, 09:48 AM
- - kawika   SanderO, please stop trying to convince me you kno...   Apr 26 2012, 12:00 PM
- - onesliceshort   Thank you Kawika   Apr 26 2012, 12:14 PM
- - SanderO   Kawika, I wrote the transfer trusses were on 6...   Apr 26 2012, 02:06 PM
|- - kawika   QUOTE (SanderO @ Apr 24 2012, 04:06 PM) K...   Apr 26 2012, 03:29 PM
|- - elreb   QUOTE (kawika @ Apr 26 2012, 09:29 AM) Do...   Apr 26 2012, 05:36 PM
|- - kawika   QUOTE (elreb @ Apr 24 2012, 07:36 PM) I h...   Apr 26 2012, 05:56 PM
|- - elreb   QUOTE (kawika @ Apr 26 2012, 11:56 AM) Th...   Apr 26 2012, 10:33 PM
- - SanderO   Elreb is the ultimate expert on diesel generators....   Apr 26 2012, 08:42 PM
|- - KP50   QUOTE (SanderO @ Apr 27 2012, 12:42 PM) I...   Apr 27 2012, 04:37 AM
- - SanderO   KP50... Not quite yet... Elreb posts some informa...   Apr 27 2012, 08:39 AM
- - onesliceshort   QUOTE (SanderO)But perhaps the kool aid just taste...   Apr 27 2012, 09:21 AM
- - SanderO   So gas (or any type of) explosions say on floor 6 ...   Apr 27 2012, 11:52 AM
- - SanderO   Elreb... Sound reasoning... no one said the gener...   Apr 27 2012, 12:58 PM
- - SanderO   Who in the FDNY said there was no evidence of dies...   Apr 27 2012, 01:52 PM
|- - kawika   QUOTE (SanderO @ Apr 25 2012, 03:52 PM) W...   Apr 27 2012, 02:43 PM
- - onesliceshort   QUOTE (SanderO)1. Witnesses, both aural and visual...   Apr 27 2012, 07:05 PM
- - SanderO   I can so so because and explosion from a bomb and ...   Apr 27 2012, 07:52 PM
- - elreb   Ask CIT   Apr 27 2012, 09:12 PM
|- - kawika   QUOTE (elreb @ Apr 25 2012, 11:12 PM) Fro...   Apr 27 2012, 10:12 PM
|- - elreb   QUOTE (kawika @ Apr 27 2012, 04:12 PM) Wh...   Apr 27 2012, 10:26 PM
- - onesliceshort   QUOTE Witnesses are unfamiliar with live explosion...   Apr 27 2012, 09:46 PM
- - onesliceshort   QUOTE (SanderO)2. Steel structures cannot fall due...   Apr 27 2012, 11:37 PM
- - SanderO   OSS, I am interested in getting to the truth abou...   Apr 28 2012, 06:35 AM
|- - kawika   QUOTE (SanderO @ Apr 26 2012, 08:35 AM) A...   Apr 28 2012, 11:15 AM
||- - SanderO   QUOTE (kawika @ Apr 28 2012, 11:15 AM) So...   Apr 28 2012, 01:53 PM
|||- - kawika   QUOTE (SanderO @ Apr 26 2012, 03:53 PM) S...   Apr 28 2012, 02:22 PM
||- - onesliceshort   QUOTE (kawika @ Apr 28 2012, 04:15 PM) So...   Apr 28 2012, 04:08 PM
|- - elreb   QUOTE (SanderO @ Apr 28 2012, 12:35 AM) m...   Apr 28 2012, 01:30 PM
- - SanderO   Can we accept that transformer do explode and caus...   Apr 28 2012, 01:58 PM
|- - elreb   QUOTE (SanderO @ Apr 28 2012, 07:58 AM) C...   Apr 28 2012, 02:59 PM
- - SanderO   Elreb... I am not an electrical engineer... I fo...   Apr 28 2012, 06:54 PM
- - onesliceshort   You haven't time to look for the "evidenc...   Apr 28 2012, 07:35 PM
- - elreb   RE = SO I also am not an Electrical Engineer. I w...   Apr 28 2012, 07:39 PM
- - onesliceshort   Kawika, was there ever a project to document the W...   Apr 29 2012, 11:59 AM
- - kawika   QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Apr 27 2012, 01:59...   Apr 29 2012, 12:30 PM
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