Payne Stewart's Lear Crash Timeline, Things that make you go HHHhhmmmm Options

[bill]

http://dnotice.org/



From the Department for Transport, June 25, 2008

The Thirty-Four Minute Gap



"[If the Air Traffic Control Center sector] has no datablock or other information on it, the military will usually scramble an intercept flight. Essentially always they turn out to be private pilots… not talking to anybody, who stray too far outside the boundary, then get picked up on their way back in. But, procedures are procedures, and they will likely find two F-18s on their tail within 10 or so minutes." -- Air Traffic Control Center, ‘ATCC Controller’s Read Binder’, Xavier Software, August 1998.



On October 25, 1999 at 09:19 EDT a Learjet Model 35, registration N47BA, departed Orlando International Airport, Orlando, Florida bound for Dallas-Love Field, Dallas, Texas with four passengers on board, including U.S. Open golf champion Payne Stewart.1 After several radio exchanges with Jacksonville Air Route Traffic Control Center (JARTCC), JARTCC at 09:33 EDT instructed N47BA to change radio frequencies and contact another JARTCC controller. There was no reply. Approximately four hours later the Learjet, off course, nose-dived into the open marshy fields of Edmunds, South Dakota, killing all on board.

Before the crash of the Learjet there ensued a curious four-hour chase conducted by the United States Air Force and units of the Air National Guard (ANG). After several intercepts and pullbacks by military interceptors, the lead pilot of a pair of Oklahoma ANG F-16s maneuvered along side Stewart’s Learjet for a close-up inspection. The pilot reported, "It's looking like the cockpit window is iced over".2 Payne Stewart’s Learjet, it seems, had lost pressurization, killing all on board.

Just as curious was the NTSB Aircraft Accident Brief3 on the tragedy that was adopted three weeks after George W. Bush’s election in 2000, and thirteen months after the crash. The timeline the NTSB provided of the Air Force response to the off course Learjet not only contradicted the initial media reports’ of the Air Force’s own timeline of the crash, but conspicuously omitted one critical entry on the Air Force’s response.

The NTSB timeline on the Air Force’s response begins at 09:52 CDT, one-hour and eighteen minutes after JARTCC lost contact with the craft:

"About 0952 CDT, a USAF F-16 test pilot from the 40th Flight Test Squadron at Eglin Air Force Base (AFB), Florida, was vectored to within 8 nm of N47BA. About 0954 CDT, at a range of 2,000 feet from the accident airplane and an altitude of about 46,400 feet, the test pilot made two radio calls to N47BA but did not receive a response. About 1000 CDT, the test pilot began a visual inspection of N47BA."4

The published media accounts of the Air Force’s timeline paints an altogether different sequence of events for the Air Force’s response, and takes note of another aspect of the Air Force’s response that for some reason the NTSB was reluctant to report on.

ABC News.com on October 25th reported:

"According to an Air Force summary, after contact was initially lost, two F-15s from Tyndall Air Force Base, Fla., were sent to track the Learjet. The F-15s pulled back and two F-16s in the air from Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., moved in to track the aircraft."5

The Dallas Morning News on October 26th reported:

"Instead, according to an Air Force timeline, a series of military planes provided an emergency escort to the stricken Lear, beginning with a pair of F-16 Falcons from the Air National Guard at Tyndall Air Force Base, Fla., about 20 minutes after ground controllers lost contact. An F-16 and an A-10 Warthog attack plane from Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., took up the chase a few minutes later and were trailing the Lear when it climbed abruptly from 39,000 to 44,000 feet at 9:52 a.m. CDT.

Fifteen minutes later, the F-16 intercepted the Lear, the pilot reporting no movement in the cockpit."6

Note the dissimilarities between the Air Force’s timeline and the NTSB’s timeline. The NTSB timeline altogether avoids mentioning an earlier request for assistance to a pair of F-15s from Tyndall Air Force Base, who we learn were actually escorting the Learjet twenty minutes after JARTCC lost contact with it. Now if we say it took five minutes to alert the Eglin fighters once the Tyndall fighters had intercepted the Learjet, and add those five minutes to the twenty minutes it took the Tyndall fighters to initially make contact with the Learjet, then add the remaining fifteen minutes it took the Eglin fighters to actually intercept the Learjet, that gives us an arrival/escort time of 09:18 CDT for the Eglin fighters, not 09:52 CDT as chronicled in the NTSB timeline. That is a thirty-four minute gap!

Is there any official account that would substantiate this thirty-four minute gap; that the Eglin fighters were escorting the Learjet thirty-four minutes earlier than the NTSB timeline admits to? As it happens there is. CNN.com on October 26th reported:

"An Air Force spokesman says two U.S. Air Force F-15s from Eglin Air Force Base, Florida, intercepted the plane shortly after it lost contact with aircraft controllers, and followed it to Missouri."7

The Air Force spokesman said the Eglin fighters intercepted the Learjet shortly after contact was lost with the aircraft. Well, one-hour and eighteen minutes doesn’t register with me as meaning shortly after!

So according to the Air Force timeline we have two interceptions of Payne Stewart’s Learjet before the NTSB chronicled 09:52 CDT interception. The first interception was by a pair of F-15s from Tyndall Air Force Base at approximately 08:58 CDT, with a second interception by Eglin fighters no later than 09:18 CDT, not 09:52 CDT as claimed by the NTSB.

In order to facilitate the Bush administration’s 2001 false flag attacks,8 the bureaucracy within the NTSB purposefully doctored their timeline of the Air Force’s response to Payne Stewart’s Learjet. Longer intercept times were needed in the Payne Stewart incident if the tardy NORAD response times on 9/11 were to be accepted by the public as nothing unusual.

----------------------------------------------------

1. http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2000/AAB0001.htm

2. Ibid (earlier an F-16 from Eglin Air Force Base did a close-up visual of the Learjet and reported that the cockpit windows were opaque, as if condensation or ice covered the inside).

3. http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/A_Acc1.htm

4. http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2000/AAB0001.htm

5. http://emperors-clothes.com/9-11backups/abclearjet.htm

6. http://www.wanttoknow.info/991026dallasmorningnews

7. http://www.cnn.com/US/9910/25/wayward.jet.07/

8. See: Rebuilding America’s Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources For a New Century (A Report of The Project for the New American Century, September 2000), whose signatories included four soon to be senior officers in the Bush administration. The key sentence in the report providing motive for the 9/11 attacks reads, "Further, the process of transformation [control of space and cyberspace; global missile defenses; the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf whether or not Saddam Hussein remains in power; precluding the rise of a great power rival, and shaping the international security order in line with American principles and interests'; and for the US to 'fight and decisively win multiple, simultaneous major theatre wars' as a 'core mission'], even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor." http://www.scribd.com/doc/9651/Rebuilding-...s-Defenses-PNAC, p. 51.

[amazed!]

Does this mean the government lies? especially the military??that it tries to cover its ass? (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/laughing1.gif)

[TheAllSeeingI]

Found a very detailed breakdown/debunk at Political Grove...
being a 911-truth advocate it was hard to let go of this one,
but it looks like the data is sound.

Even with the intercept of this small plane taking over an hour,
still doesn't make excuse for 3 of the 4 airliners to reach their targets
in the most heavily defended air space in the world.

[dMz]

Found a very detailed breakdown/debunk at Political Grove...
being a 911-truth advocate it was hard to let go of this one,
but it looks like the data is sound.

Hi TASI,

Is this the level of "detailed breakdown/debunk" typical at that site?

What multitudes? You might want to up your dose of lithium!

It also seems to be 15 pages of metachatter from July 2008- or was the link broken? Can I get my 12 minutes back (or some relevant post numbers)?

Uh thanx...

[albertchampion]

ah, the payne stewart accident was one that focused on. principally because i occassionally charted a lear 35.

my records of the accident investigation/news reports are on a portable hard drive that was a victim of a flood. sometimes it works. sometimes it doesn't.

but, here is my best recollection. the pilot had been instructed by control to report upon reaching 33,000 ft.

when control failed to receive that report, control tried to communicate with the lear. no response. there were a pair of A10's on manuevers northeast of eglin. within 20 minutes of no communication from the lear, they were redirected from their tactical exercise to try and make an intercept. but, they didn't have the speed nor the fuel.

that is when two fighters were launched from tyndall[a norad base,i think] in the florida panhandle. and they accomplished the intercept. they observed the condition of the plane and concluded that all on board were at room temperature and that the lear was flying on its last autopilot setting. and that it would eventually augur in when it ran out of fuel.

the refueling fbo was contacted to determine how much fuel was on board. the radius of auguring was determined. virtually uninhabited farmland.

the tyndall aircraft, running low on fuel, were replaced by air guard aircraft. the air guard aircraft followed and observed the end of the trail. the going south.

to the best of my recollection, after 11/09/01, there occurred some manipulation of this record. most of it involved a play with time zones. a confusion of central and eastern.

and i think the virtually immediate re-direction of the eglin A10's became obscured.

but my mind could be playing tricks on me. it happens sometimes when one reaches a certain age.

the tyndall

[amazed!]

I think you're right Albert.

The initial intercept WAS made by the Eglin aircraft very quickly--around 20 minutes as I recall. A second intercept by the Tyndall aircraft who stayed with it for awhile until bingo fuel, at which time some ANG aircraft followed it to its demise.

And yes, post 9/11 the argument was made that it took over an hour, but that miscalculation happened because of the change from Eastern to Central time zones, the Georgia Alabama state line where the initial intercept took place.

I know the guy who was flying the first helicopter on scene. Just a hole in the ground with some parts scattered around.

[ULTIMA1]

I think you're right Albert.

The initial intercept WAS made by the Eglin aircraft very quickly--around 20 minutes as I recall. A second intercept by the Tyndall aircraft who stayed with it for awhile until bingo fuel, at which time some ANG aircraft followed it to its demise.

Here is the official NTSB timeline of the intercept.

http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2000/aab0001.htm
At 0933:38 EDT (6 minutes and 20 seconds after N47BA acknowledged the previous clearance), the controller instructed N47BA to change radio frequencies and contact another Jacksonville ARTCC controller. The controller received no response from N47BA. The controller called the flight five more times over the next 4 1/2 minutes but received no response.

About 0952 CDT,7 a USAF F-16 test pilot from the 40th Flight Test Squadron at Eglin Air Force Base (AFB), Florida, was vectored to within 8 nm of N47BA.8 About 0954 CDT, at a range of 2,000 feet from the accident airplane and an altitude of about 46,400 feet,9 the test pilot made two radio calls to N47BA but did not receive a response.

[amazed!]

Ultima

I think the times you cite reflect that time zone error.

9:33 Eastern would be 13:33 UCT

9:52 Central would be 14:52 UCT which means that it took the Lear something like 1:20 to get from a position SW of Jacksonville to the intercept point more or less midway up the Alabama Georgia line. That seems to long to me, but I never have calculated the actual mileage. Considering that one can do Melbourne FL to Atlanta in about an hour in a Lear, the mileage is less and the time is more.

Something seems out of whack.

[ULTIMA1]

Ultima

I think the times you cite reflect that time zone error.

Please notice the number 7 after the CDT time to reference the time zone.


* 7 About 1010 EDT, the accident airplane crossed from the EDT zone to the CDT zone in the vicinity of Eufaula, Alabama.

http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2000/aab0001.htm
About 0952 CDT,7 a USAF F-16 test pilot from the 40th Flight Test Squadron at Eglin Air Force Base (AFB), Florida, was vectored to within 8 nm of N47BA.8 About 0954 CDT, at a range of 2,000 feet from the accident airplane and an altitude of about 46,400 feet,9 the test pilot made two radio calls to N47BA but did not receive a response. About 1000 CDT, the test pilot began a visual inspection of N47BA. There was no visible damage to the airplane, and he did not see ice accumulation on the exterior of the airplane. Both engines were running, and the rotating beacon was on. He stated that he could not see inside the passenger section of the airplane because the windows seemed to be dark. Further, he stated that the entire right cockpit windshield was opaque, as if condensation or ice covered the inside. He also indicated that the left cockpit windshield was opaque, although several sections of the center of the windshield seemed to be only thinly covered by condensation or ice; a small rectangular section of the windshield was clear, with only a small section of the glare shield visible through this area. He did not see any flight control movement. About 1012 CDT, he concluded his inspection of N47BA and proceeded to Scott AFB, Illinois.

About 1113 CDT, two Oklahoma ANG F-16s with the identification "TULSA 13 flight" were vectored to intercept the accident airplane by the Minneapolis ARTCC. The TULSA 13 lead pilot reported to the Minneapolis ARTCC controller that he could not see any movement in the cockpit. About 1125 CDT, the TULSA 13 lead pilot reported that the windshield was dark and that he could not tell if the windshield was iced.

This post has been edited by ULTIMA1: Nov 2 2008, 12:27 PM

[amazed!]

I agree with Bill's #1 post on this thread--I think the numbers have been doctored to counter the truther observation about intercept times prior to 9/11.

I remember reading the report right aftere the accident, and it seems the later version of that has been doctored. The new numbers do not fit with Learjet performance, it seems to me.

[albertchampion]

i can only say that starting with the clinton regime, the ntsb became remorselessly worthless as an objective investigator of significant aircraft accidents.

there are probably more obfuscations than the ones i know about, but, for the record, here are the ones i care to cite:

twa800, as261, sr111, ea990.

jfk jr.

and then there are all the collisions with terrain that occurred on 11/09/01 - all of them accidents that the ntsb refused to invesigate.

and then there was aa587

why is it that "student" pilots always seem to be shills for the state?

[dMz]

You all probably know this, but I'll post here for everyone else's convenience, plus there is a lot of good reference info at those pages.

Lear 35-A shows M_mo = 0.83m

AIRCRAFT mtow mlw range ceiling Vr Vcruise Vcruise - Mmo Vmo Vref Vsi Vso
lbs. lbs. n.m. kias ktas econ. ktas mach kias kias kias kias
Learjet 35-A 18,300 15,300 2,430 FL450 130 486@FL450 418@FL450 .83m 359 96

http://www.vateud-td.org/handbooks/manual/7_aircraft.asp

http://webpages.charter.net/anw/ANW/performance.html

See also:
http://www.airsafe.com/stewart.htm

for links to the "official" NTSB fiction. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Accident No.: DCA00MA005
Operator or Flight Number: Sunjet Aviation
Aircraft and Registration: Learjet Model 35, N47BA
Location: Aberdeen, South Dakota
Date: October 25, 1999

http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2000/AAB0001.htm

EDIT: As of last month, FAA might have 2 of those 9/11 events as "B752 arrivals/collisions" with a Reagan DCA runway, including one UAL93...

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....showtopic=14981

I think Albert is correct that the NTSB might have actively been NOT investigating those 4 CWT...

[dMz]

Strangely enough tonight, the NTSB website appears to be down. "Housecleaning" perhaps?

"[Browser] can't establish a connection to the server at www.ntsb.gov."

http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2000/AAB0001.htm

[GroundPounder]

jax to ca. middle of alabama/georgia is ~280 statute miles

[amazed!]

Thanks for the number GP

The flight proceeded normally for what, about 20 minutes, and I think they were bound for Dallas.

So I'm assuming the departure vectors took them somewhere in the vicinity of Gainesville, whose airspace is controlled by Jax Center. At 3 to 4 miles per minute it would not take long to get to the Georgia/Alabama line.

The point is that the intercept actually took place fairly quickly, largely because the Eglin aircraft involved were already airborne, though low on fuel.

It seems they tried to doctor the times after the fact, to support the official story that NORAD simply COULD NOT HAVE intercepted the various flights of 11 September.