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Wtc7 Southwestern Area, Source of smoke?

elreb
post Jun 26 2012, 12:30 PM
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About the time of the Jennings/Hess explosions it was reported that the SSB generators were on fire.

Reports indicate that very little was combustible on the 5th floor.

The fire would automatically cause the fuel system to turn off.

The 5 generators in the SW corner could have been in some type of an enclosure, as it went up two stories. The northern 6 appear to be open with a one story roof.

I wonder if it were planned to kill the SSB generators.
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onesliceshort
post Jun 26 2012, 05:08 PM
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QUOTE (elreb)
The 5 generators in the SW corner could have been in some type of an enclosure, as it went up two stories. The northern 6 appear to be open with a one story roof.


Right on. I found that link:

http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_ch5.pdf

QUOTE
Power to WTC 7 entered at 13,800 volts (V), was stepped down to 480/277 V by silicone oil-filled transformers in individual masonry vaults on the 5th floor, and was distributed throughout the building.


Who reported the generators on fire? Mike Catalano? He described some things that I can't fathom. He mentioned the "cafeteria on Floor 4" which allegedly had two emergency exits, one of which was jammed ("broken handle") and the other exit which was blocked by fire. And that ConEd had "huge fires". I see no visual evidence for this.

Have you got floorplans for Floor 4 to pinpoint this guy?

If he was there, he had to be somewhere to the north of the building (?):

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/2362/imageygua.jpg

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elreb
post Jun 26 2012, 05:51 PM
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Both FEMA and NIST have written scenarios and farfetched guesses of potential collapse mechanisms.

Three sources claim smoke and fire on floors 5/6 that were rather short lived.

Con-Ed reports no fires.

We know the West stairwell was open and the East up to floor 5.

It seems odd that the battery powered stair lights were not working when the loading dock was well lite.

No one reports actual diesel fires

Almost all of this has been covered under “Pick on SanderO”.
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MajorTom
post Jun 26 2012, 07:02 PM
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Nice collection of images. Thanks.
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MajorTom
post Jun 26 2012, 07:31 PM
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Link to a thread with a nice collection of similar photos in The 9/11 Forum here.


Also a good collection of construction photos here.
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onesliceshort
post Jun 26 2012, 09:24 PM
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QUOTE (elreb @ Jun 26 2012, 10:51 PM) *
Both FEMA and NIST have written scenarios and farfetched guesses of potential collapse mechanisms.


100%

QUOTE
Three sources claim smoke and fire on floors 5/6 that were rather short lived.


Who are the other two? (Sorry, the SanderO thread is a blur - I'll read up on it again)

QUOTE
Con-Ed reports no fires.


Yep.

QUOTE
We know the West stairwell was open and the East up to floor 5.


Yep. And there was strange plain clothe activity around the East face an hour before the SEC fires.

QUOTE
It seems odd that the battery powered stair lights were not working when the loading dock was well lite.


Yep. And the FEMA report says "Emergency lighting units in the exit stairways, elevator lobbies, and elevator cabs were equipped with individual backup batteries."

QUOTE
No one reports actual diesel fires


Yep. Even the FDNY allegedly denies this early afternoon and prior to collapse.

I also found this image that shows what can only be smoke to the east of WTC7 before 10am

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/6310/imagehysw.jpg

I know that vehicles caught fire in this area, but before 10am? And the smoke (if it is) reaches the 22nd floor area.


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onesliceshort
post Jun 26 2012, 09:27 PM
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QUOTE (MajorTom @ Jun 27 2012, 12:31 AM) *
Link to a thread with a nice collection of similar photos in The 9/11 Forum here.


Also a good collection of construction photos here.


Thanks Tom.

It's a nightmare trying to tie down the timeframes post collapses.

The WTC7 south face thread was a great help (I actually raided some of the images there - hope you guys don't mind?).

And the construction photos are new to me. Nice one!
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DoYouEverWonder
post Jun 27 2012, 07:43 AM
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QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Jun 26 2012, 10:57 AM) *
Could you expand on that DYEW? Sounds interesting.


Thanks for the pic elreb:



Think sabotage.

@oss: Your mission if you wish to accept it: Destroy a hi-rise, using only the available resources that were already on site. Minimize the use of traceable explosives as much as possible.

You've got a power plant in the basement, electric, steam, a bunch of transformers and lot's of fuel storage tanks. At some point before the attack, you may have the option of switching out the fuel in the 'diesel' tanks with something more volatile. According to NYC fire codes, "1,000 liters per above-ground floor is an allowed maximum, providing that the fire protection is up to the requirements." The 5th Floor of WTC 7 had a lot more than that and not much for fire protection.

You also want to take advantage of the unusual design of the structure.

WTC 7 is a very odd building. It is the only hi-rise that I know that was ever built on top of an existing power plant. In order to accomplish this task, the builders had to place steel columns through the existing plant (what an expensive pain in the ass that must have been) and since the new building had a bigger footprint than the building under it, they used cantilevered trusses between the 5th and 6th floors to transfer most of the load.

-----------

Until I saw the floor plans that Elreb posted, I didn't know about the banks of transformers that ran along the north and south sides of the 5th Floor, right under those cantilevered trusses. Oh gee, how convenient.


QUOTE
How Transformers Can Explode

February 12, 2010

On February 12, an underground electrical transformer exploded in front of a Radio Shack on 6th Avenue, in New York City, emitting a fireball seven stories high and damaging nearby buildings. Here's how this could have happened.

A transformer from Consolidated Edison (Con Ed), New York City's sole electricity supplier, exploded from beneath the sidewalk in an underground vault yesterday, creating a fiery blast that shattered windows multiple stories high. Though no injuries were reported, offices and stores at the corner of 20th Street were left smoldering.

Investigators are still trying to answer the question: Just what lead this transformer to explode? Â Â

Electrical transformers transfer energy between circuits, switching energy from one voltage to another. But when flooded with too much electricity, the sudden surge can cause a transformer explosion. As transformers detect an energy spike, they're programmed to turn off, but it can take up to 60 milliseconds for the shutdown. However fast those milliseconds may seem, they still may be too slow to stop the electrical overload.


"But when flooded with too much electricity, the sudden surge can cause a transformer explosion." Maybe this is why they built WTC 7 on top of a power plant?





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SanderO
post Jun 27 2012, 10:41 AM
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DYEW,

I have been suggesting this for a few months and itn has not played well with this crew with the reason being... where there's no smoke, there's no fire... and so not having images of smoke and fire the theory is considered hair brained at best.

There are aspects of the structure which can be related directly to the observed collapse data. Whatever the cause .. initiating the collapse.. I think it almost certainly was a failure of the transfer truss chords and the cantilever girders which happened to be right where those transformers are located on the north side... or as you write... how convenient.

I'm not ready to proposed that the tower was built to be demo'd or that the tanks were filled with some other more volatile fuel. But I am not yet ruling out that there was something which weakened those T trusses and cantilever girders. My theory is call TTF - transfer truss failure.

The observations indicate that the east penthouse above on the the T trusses collapsed first and it descended right down through the tower. This has been confirmed by femr2 and tom and Achimspok by analysis the distortion of the facade glass. The collapse is telegraphed to the facade. Immediately after the East penthouse drops, the West penthouse goes.. it's over most of the rest of the core including the other T trusses. Now the building has been hollowed out... no core. Did the floors supported from the core on one side then drop down following the collapse of the core... sort of collapsing into a "sink hole"? Maybe.

If the t trusses etc failed at flrs 4,5,& 6 (where the Jennings/Hess explosion was witnessed) the facade structure which is a massive diaginally braced frame might have collapsed into the *sink hole* over the sub station and that left nothing to hold up the perimeter columns or the curtain will which could then descend 8 floors (100') with no resistance (FF). Maybe.

Structurally this makes sense... If you fracture the t trusses you have 41 stories of core dropping and that's heavy!

Note that the building engineer also believed that the t trusses are what failed... not the column 79 as NIST claims. he thought it was from diesel fires... and claimed the diesel system was a retro fit years after the tower was constructed.

Could this have been done by cutter charges and a few explosives? Who knows? What WAS the Jennings Hess explosion? Just a coincidence?

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onesliceshort
post Jun 27 2012, 12:03 PM
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Ignoring the illogical rant where "this crew" is "hairbrained" for pointing out that diesel fires exude black f#%$ing smoke no matter how you slice it..

@DYEW

That's rule number one DYEW. Keep it simple.

A few modifications to a (literal) timebomb waiting to happen at the most vulnerable sections of the building. I believe that if this were the intention, the unforeseen damage to the southwest corner may have put a spanner in the works (just my 2cents ).

Though I still don't see how this can be proven when there were no visible fires on the lower floors all day.

But there was definitely something dramatic happening in the last hour on the lower floors or to the northwest area of the building before WTC7 fell. 

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/9052/imageaua.jpg

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/2921/imagejqa.jpg

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/5738/imageilck.jpg

Edit: Correction for the source of black smoke pointed out at the north face in the three images above. It's apparently from a burning vehicle


Author: Roberto Rabanne

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/6386/imageosv.jpg

http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u422/c...tu/fb04e010.jpg


This post has been edited by onesliceshort: Jul 10 2012, 09:08 AM
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SanderO
post Jun 27 2012, 12:46 PM
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OSS,

Can you read English? The meaning of the sentence was that YOU... and Elreb, affectionately referred to as *this crew* considered ME hair brained for suggesting a theory where there was no evidence of some or fires.

Your hostility and dismissiveness and sarcasm is completely uncalled for.

The irony here is that DYEW is proposing a very similar scenario as I have... which again I speculated as to the cause being diesel and oil fires being caused by transformer explosions. I think the collapse mechanism IS correct and is supported by the observation of the building's movement.
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SanderO
post Jun 27 2012, 01:25 PM
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OSS,

I went to this site:

http://www.sunearthtools.com/dp/tools/pos_sun.php#help_Date

and entered the date, and location and viewed the shadow lines and compared them to the photo:

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/5738/imageilck.jpg

you referenced.

It's the intersection of Greenwich Ave and Harrison Streets .... from the shadows it looks much later.. could this be after 5pm?

Perhaps it does take that long for an intense fuel fire to weaken some steel... The twins lasted 1 hr and 1.5 hrs...

This post has been edited by SanderO: Jun 27 2012, 01:27 PM
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onesliceshort
post Jun 27 2012, 04:24 PM
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QUOTE (SanderO @ Jun 27 2012, 06:25 PM) *
OSS,

I went to this site:

http://www.sunearthtools.com/dp/tools/pos_sun.php#help_Date

and entered the date, and location and viewed the shadow lines and compared them to the photo:

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/5738/imageilck.jpg

you referenced.

It's the intersection of Greenwich Ave and Harrison Streets .... from the shadows it looks much later.. could this be after 5pm?

Perhaps it does take that long for an intense fuel fire to weaken some steel... The twins lasted 1 hr and 1.5 hrs...


The image is from around that time, yes.

If you want to discuss the North and South towers take it to the appropriate section.

And excuse my "dismissiveness". I'm still waiting for you to point out where my timeframes are "wrong" in your first response to the "Fire Progression" thread. Oh, that's right, you haven't time and the information compiled there is "unimportant" anyway. You're playing the victim card with the wrong person. I know your M.O. yes1.gif

This post has been edited by onesliceshort: Jun 27 2012, 04:24 PM
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elreb
post Jun 27 2012, 05:22 PM
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QUOTE (DoYouEverWonder @ Jun 27 2012, 01:43 AM) *
Until I saw the floor plans that Elreb posted, I didn't know about the banks of transformers that ran along the north and south sides of the 5th Floor

1. WTC7 had 10 transformers on ground floor

2. Con-Ed had 8 additional transformers, several air cooled and the rest oil cooled that supplied 13 kilovolt-ampere to 6th floor [most likely 3 phase]. There were 9 vaults.

3. 5th floor had 12 “Silicone” filled transformers. 6 in back and 6 in front [8 vaults]

4. 7th floor had 2 dry transformers for the Mayors 3 generators

Con-Ed was served by four 138,000 Volt feeds.WTC7 was served by four 13,800 Volt feeders that were designed such that full electrical service will not be interrupted in the building even with the loss of two 13,800 Volt electrical service conductors.

The feeders for Building 7 are tapped off of the Building 4 feeders; therefore, the substation relays protecting Building 4 also protect the feeders for Building 7.

These feeders are protected by 1200-ampere circuit breakers with protective relays to disconnect the power when a fault occurs.

At 4:33 p.m., the Con-Ed “utility control center” isolated the WTC 7 Con Edison substation by opening the 138,000 V circuit breakers feeding the WTC 7 substation.

Fire detector signals from the Con Edison substation were monitored off-site throughout the day.

One fire detector within the Con Edison substation gave an alarm when WTC 1 collapsed, and stayed in alarm mode until the substation was isolated from incoming feeders at 4:33 p.m.

There were no other indications (e.g., no high temperature alarms from the transformers, no visible smoke emanating from the Con Edison substation) that a fire occurred within the substation during that period of time.

Likely causes of the fire alarm were the smoke and dust dispersed in the area of the substation from the collapse of WTC 1.

NOTE: Notice that the crew provides information and pictures...
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SanderO
post Jun 27 2012, 06:37 PM
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QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Jun 27 2012, 04:24 PM) *
You're playing the victim card with the wrong person. I know your M.O. yes1.gif


The what? I am not playing any card or gotcha game. I viewed your pics on my laptop on my boat a few weeks ago... hundreds of them and frankly don't want to go back and study them again. It was a good collection. I thought a couple were mis labeled.. no big deal. I can't tell much from pics of smoke.

The thick black smoke on the NW corner looks like plastic, fiber glass or perhaps oil/fuel burning. Ask Jim Quintierre.

I mentioned the other buildings because the fires lasted in between 1 and 1.5 hrs and thought that was worthy of note. You didn't. Your choice.
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elreb
post Jun 27 2012, 06:37 PM
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QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Jun 26 2012, 03:24 PM) *
Who are the other two?

More or less you had:

Mike Catalano

Joe Gregori

Mike Hess

Barry Jennings

A fellow on the 3rd floor by the elevators

The 1000 people in the 4th floor cafeteria
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elreb
post Jun 27 2012, 07:45 PM
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We have an explosion, smoke and short lived fire at 9:20 am

The alarm only went off once at 10:00 am which matches Con-Ed.

The crew provides evidence…not cheap talk…

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onesliceshort
post Jun 27 2012, 09:46 PM
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QUOTE


thumbsup.gif

Does the Floor 4 floorplan show where the two emergency exits are? I'd like to find out where the alleged "smokey stairway" was. I'm thinking west of the building.

Edit added:

Did you see this image which apparently shows grey smoke rising on the west face of WTC7 prior tothe collapses?

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/6310/imagehysw.jpg

I ignored it because I originally thought it was the outline of another building (WTC5) but it's at @ the 22nd floor level. I could be wrong about it being smoke but it lookslike it to me.

This post has been edited by onesliceshort: Jun 27 2012, 10:25 PM
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elreb
post Jun 27 2012, 11:27 PM
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This will give some idea…

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DoYouEverWonder
post Jun 27 2012, 11:32 PM
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QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Jun 27 2012, 08:46 PM) *
thumbsup.gif

Does the Floor 4 floorplan show where the two emergency exits are? I'd like to find out where the alleged "smokey stairway" was. I'm thinking west of the building.

Edit added:

Did you see this image which apparently shows grey smoke rising on the west face of WTC7 prior tothe collapses?

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/6310/imagehysw.jpg

I ignored it because I originally thought it was the outline of another building (WTC5) but it's at @ the 22nd floor level. I could be wrong about it being smoke but it lookslike it to me.

Odd. But it looks like the cloud of smoke is from the Plaza between WTC 5 & 6?

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