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Think You're Alone?, Think again...

rob balsamo
post Jan 3 2007, 12:42 PM
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http://patriotsquestion911.com

list gets updated regularly. One of the best and most powerful sites on the net in my opinion.

Why do we not have a new investigation yet? The media... the corporate owned, mainstream whore media!


pisses me off... angry.gif
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painter
post Jan 3 2007, 12:54 PM
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QUOTE (johndoeX @ Jan 3 2007, 04:42 PM)
http://patriotsquestion911.com

list gets updated regularly. One of the best and most powerful sites on the net in my opinion.

Why do we not have a new investigation yet? The media... the corporate owned, mainstream whore media!


pisses me off... angry.gif

I've been pissed off for decades, JDX. I want to say "get used to it" -- but only because I'm in a bit of a surly mood this morning here in California.

I'm coming to the conclusion it (a new investigation) isn't going to happen. Ever.
Please, someone, PROVE ME WRONG!

heh heh heh <evil sneering chuckle>
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Cary
post Jan 3 2007, 01:50 PM
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Glad to see they finally added Cynthia McKinney.
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grizz
post Jan 3 2007, 02:11 PM
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QUOTE (painter @ Jan 3 2007, 04:54 PM)
QUOTE (johndoeX @ Jan 3 2007, 04:42 PM)
http://patriotsquestion911.com

list gets updated regularly. One of the best and most powerful sites on the net in my opinion.

Why do we not have a new investigation yet? The media... the corporate owned, mainstream whore media!


pisses me off... angry.gif

I've been pissed off for decades, JDX. I want to say "get used to it" -- but only because I'm in a bit of a surly mood this morning here in California.

I'm coming to the conclusion it (a new investigation) isn't going to happen. Ever.
Please, someone, PROVE ME WRONG!

heh heh heh <evil sneering chuckle>

Sadly, as you know Painter, I agree with you. The TM has many challenges right now. One is the danger of becoming an accepted thread in the fabric of our society. If we lose our edge we become ineffective. Somehow, we have to figure out how not to go the way of other movements, which have become part of the establishment.
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THE_DECIDER
post Jan 3 2007, 03:04 PM
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just imagine....200 years ago, dissent was honorable, picking up a rifle and damanding change was honorable, mulitia groups were patriotic, standing im mass numbers outside government offices damanding change got results, not rubber bullets and tear gas..
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Wingmaster05
post Jan 24 2007, 02:10 AM
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QUOTE (painter @ Jan 3 2007, 11:54 AM)
QUOTE (johndoeX @ Jan 3 2007, 04:42 PM)
http://patriotsquestion911.com

list gets updated regularly. One of the best and most powerful sites on the net in my opinion.

Why do we not have a new investigation yet? The media... the corporate owned, mainstream whore media!


pisses me off... angry.gif

I've been pissed off for decades, JDX. I want to say "get used to it" -- but only because I'm in a bit of a surly mood this morning here in California.

I'm coming to the conclusion it (a new investigation) isn't going to happen. Ever.
Please, someone, PROVE ME WRONG!

heh heh heh <evil sneering chuckle>

It's interesting, the people who been at this stuff the longest come to that conclusion more than the newb's. I noticed in Jack Blood's mini interview of presidental candidate Ron Paul he had the same view.

if you realize how far the tentacles of this creature extend, the only possible way to defeat it is a class revolution. Almost anything that has decent control, power, or dominion over large groups of people is corrupted to the top. Nobody likes to mention the R word often as it is a serious statement.

Thoughts on this? I was hoping Dr. Paul would present an alternative to a new investigation but he did not.

How do we tackle the money powers, selfless corporations, government institutions, heck, human greed? When i think class war, not only do i refer to us common folk and the elite, but the morally true and corrupt as well. We all need to fix up our own inner demons, our own crazy life, our own deceitfulness before we impose lasting strategies on this world. If we can't be true to ourselves and respectful of every individual, it wouldn't even matter that we took down the elite; a new morally devoid group of jackals would rise to the top. Humanity needs to step up its game if it wants to continue coexisting on this earth with the rest of this wonderful life. thus, I believe our next move is psychological and spiritual as much as it is a physical, tangible move forward in this "grand chessboard", so to speak.
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grizz
post Jan 24 2007, 02:19 AM
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Great post, Wingmaster. Many are talking about that very thing, the psychological/spiritual aspect of all this. It's something my local group is working on.

Welcome to the forum. welcome.gif
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painter
post Jan 24 2007, 04:21 AM
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QUOTE (Wingmaster05 @ Jan 23 2007, 10:10 PM)
QUOTE (painter @ Jan 3 2007, 11:54 AM)
QUOTE (johndoeX @ Jan 3 2007, 04:42 PM)
http://patriotsquestion911.com

list gets updated regularly. One of the best and most powerful sites on the net in my opinion.

Why do we not have a new investigation yet? The media... the corporate owned, mainstream whore media!


pisses me off... angry.gif

I've been pissed off for decades, JDX. I want to say "get used to it" -- but only because I'm in a bit of a surly mood this morning here in California.

I'm coming to the conclusion it (a new investigation) isn't going to happen. Ever.
Please, someone, PROVE ME WRONG!

heh heh heh <evil sneering chuckle>

It's interesting, the people who been at this stuff the longest come to that conclusion more than the newb's. I noticed in Jack Blood's mini interview of presidental candidate Ron Paul he had the same view.

if you realize how far the tentacles of this creature extend, the only possible way to defeat it is a class revolution. Almost anything that has decent control, power, or dominion over large groups of people is corrupted to the top. Nobody likes to mention the R word often as it is a serious statement.

Thoughts on this? I was hoping Dr. Paul would present an alternative to a new investigation but he did not.

How do we tackle the money powers, selfless corporations, government institutions, heck, human greed? When i think class war, not only do i refer to us common folk and the elite, but the morally true and corrupt as well. We all need to fix up our own inner demons, our own crazy life, our own deceitfulness before we impose lasting strategies on this world. If we can't be true to ourselves and respectful of every individual, it wouldn't even matter that we took down the elite; a new morally devoid group of jackals would rise to the top. Humanity needs to step up its game if it wants to continue coexisting on this earth with the rest of this wonderful life. thus, I believe our next move is psychological and spiritual as much as it is a physical, tangible move forward in this "grand chessboard", so to speak.

I agree, Wingmaster.

Revolutions do happen now and then and we're long overdue for one, IMO; a real one. As you point out, however, the tentacles go deep and are pervasive throughout our culture and ourselves.

It gets tricky, though. We do not have an accurate representation of ourselves. We've been taught to regard ourselves and our fellow human beings a certain way. We're told over and over again how violent we are, for example. This isn't my experience on a day to day basis, though. My experience is most people -- the vast majority of people -- want to live and let live and are quite fine with that. The real 'monsters' are actually very few but somehow we've allowed them to take control of the rest of us to the point that we no longer really know who we are, what we want, or how we might go about achieving what we want without turning ourselves into the very monsters we wish to overcome. It is an interesting puzzle I've contemplate off and on my whole life. Given that the world is as it is (however that is, in fact) how do we get from here to a 'there' that provides for the most freedom and security for the whole? This, I think, was what the original founders of this nation wanted -- but, of course, they were essentially elegant farmers themselves -- noblemen of a sort in a relatively more civilized age than our own. They could NEVER, even in their wildest dreams, have imagined the world that has come into being in the past 200+ years. For them, information couldn't travel faster than a horse and all the things we take for granted everyday would appear as magic (albeit, perhaps, black magic) to them.

Where do we go from here, chaos or community?

That depends on us, I think. One thing about 9/11, it was MEANT to be a powerful, social MYTH. The question is, who is going to control the MEANING of that myth? The powers that be through government and corporate media have told us what this myth -- the "attack" by "terrorists" -- is supposed to be and what it is supposed to mean. But we little mice out here have been working overtime in our spare time for years spreading the word that the truth is otherwise -- and it is working. A lot of people now suspect that the truth of 9/11 isn't the myth they've been told. THAT in itself creates a NEW myth, a new paradigm. Taken to its ultimate conclusion, it brings everything into question. Except for a very few individuals, NOT ONE INSTITUTION within our society has outspokenly questioned the veracity of the "official story". NOT ONE! This is very important because it scoops everything up into one bundle: Religion, academia, government, political parties, military, media, corporations -- you name it. They've all 'gone along' with the official story and refused to look at the evidence. This is a VERY SIGNIFICANT INDICTMENT of the entire edifice of society.

You say you want a revolution . . .

Well, you know, it is happening. We are part of it, right here, right now. It may not turn out the way we'd imagine; it may be that, after all, Rumsfeld was right, and there really are "unknown unknowns" -- unpredictable consequences that can turn the whole thing upside down and inside out. It still depends on us; every one of us. This is an UNPRECIDENTED historical situation sitting here on the cusp of WW III and potential ecological cataclysm. WOO HOO!!

cheers.gif
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George Hayduke
post Jan 24 2007, 10:56 AM
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Is the TM dead? Is it gaining momentum? All I know is that we probably only have two years left, more time if Giuliani gets elected.

I remember posting on the From the Wilderness blogs a post similar to Painter's first on this thread. It got a response which was, "forget trying to save anybody. Forget trying to save the world. The world doesn't want to be saved. Do what you can to prepare yourself for the crises of the future." In other words focus your studies not on shaping a politically relevant movement or on figuring out to the last detail what happened. Carve out some time in your studies for research into survivalism. Focus less on saving others and more on saving yourself.

Probably smart advice there. America isn't ready for a revolution, which is what 911 truth should bring about. America is only ready to eat a hamburger, pop a Xanax and drive a huge SUV through prefab suburbs made of particle board.

This post has been edited by George Hayduke: Jan 24 2007, 10:59 AM
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painter
post Jan 24 2007, 12:30 PM
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QUOTE (George Hayduke @ Jan 24 2007, 06:56 AM)
Is the TM dead? Is it gaining momentum? All I know is that we probably only have two years left, more time if Giuliani gets elected.

I remember posting on the From the Wilderness blogs a post similar to Painter's first on this thread. It got a response which was, "forget trying to save anybody. Forget trying to save the world. The world doesn't want to be saved. Do what you can to prepare yourself for the crises of the future." In other words focus your studies not on shaping a politically relevant movement or on figuring out to the last detail what happened. Carve out some time in your studies for research into survivalism. Focus less on saving others and more on saving yourself.

Probably smart advice there. America isn't ready for a revolution, which is what 911 truth should bring about. America is only ready to eat a hamburger, pop a Xanax and drive a huge SUV through prefab suburbs made of particle board.

Very cynical perspective you've got there, GH. Not saying your wrong, understand, just that it doesn't leave much room for any real hope. Survivalism isn't going to work unless you can either get yourself to a remote, mountainous island with lots of room to grow food in the higher elevations or to another habitable planet. This chapter of human history may be coming to a close but civilization has existed prior to technology -- and can continue to exist even should technology (as we know it) no longer be possible. Of course we're talking reduced numbers -- after all, it isn't too few resources that is the problem anyway, it is too many people. And, really, the bigger problem is the whole "survivalist" attitude of "it is a jungle out there and I'm going to get mine so f*ck everyone else."

Humanity has survived as long as it has because it has learned to cooperate and to share social (read survival) responsibility through families, tribes, vilages, cultures, city and nation states. Back in the Sixties we got it -- we're at a new social threshold that is planetary in scope. Unfortunately the frames of mind that were dominant in the pre-cybernetic era -- the pre-industrial and industrial "I'm for mine own and nothing nor nobody else" mentality has remained dominant. THAT is what could be humankind's down fall. And so because the real issue has to do with where we draw the lines of the 'self'. We are at the cusp of a new, and truly revolutionary understanding of ourselves as individuals, as groups, as humanity as a whole, in relationship with the greater mind of nature. We've fu*ked up bad -- and I'm not just talking about global warming. Not only have we fouled our own nest and are depleting its resources at an alarming rate, we've not understood that, on a very deep (for lack of a better word) 'spiritual' level, WE and the EARTH are one thing. Epistemology is key.
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Wingmaster05
post Jan 24 2007, 03:23 PM
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QUOTE (painter @ Jan 24 2007, 11:30 AM)
QUOTE (George Hayduke @ Jan 24 2007, 06:56 AM)
Is the TM dead? Is it gaining momentum? All I know is that we probably only have two years left, more time if Giuliani gets elected.

I remember posting on the From the Wilderness blogs a post similar to Painter's first on this thread. It got a response which was, "forget trying to save anybody. Forget trying to save the world. The world doesn't want to be saved. Do what you can to prepare yourself for the crises of the future." In other words focus your studies not on shaping a politically relevant movement or on figuring out to the last detail what happened. Carve out some time in your studies for research into survivalism. Focus less on saving others and more on saving yourself.

Probably smart advice there. America isn't ready for a revolution, which is what 911 truth should bring about. America is only ready to eat a hamburger, pop a Xanax and drive a huge SUV through prefab suburbs made of particle board.

Very cynical perspective you've got there, GH. Not saying your wrong, understand, just that it doesn't leave much room for any real hope. Survivalism isn't going to work unless you can either get yourself to a remote, mountainous island with lots of room to grow food in the higher elevations or to another habitable planet. This chapter of human history may be coming to a close but civilization has existed prior to technology -- and can continue to exist even should technology (as we know it) no longer be possible. Of course we're talking reduced numbers -- after all, it isn't too few resources that is the problem anyway, it is too many people. And, really, the bigger problem is the whole "survivalist" attitude of "it is a jungle out there and I'm going to get mine so f*ck everyone else."

Humanity has survived as long as it has because it has learned to cooperate and to share social (read survival) responsibility through families, tribes, vilages, cultures, city and nation states. Back in the Sixties we got it -- we're at a new social threshold that is planetary in scope. Unfortunately the frames of mind that were dominant in the pre-cybernetic era -- the pre-industrial and industrial "I'm for mine own and nothing nor nobody else" mentality has remained dominant. THAT is what could be humankind's down fall. And so because the real issue has to do with where we draw the lines of the 'self'. We are at the cusp of a new, and truly revolutionary understanding of ourselves as individuals, as groups, as humanity as a whole, in relationship with the greater mind of nature. We've fu*ked up bad -- and I'm not just talking about global warming. Not only have we fouled our own nest and are depleting its resources at an alarming rate, we've not understood that, on a very deep (for lack of a better word) 'spiritual' level, WE and the EARTH are one thing. Epistemology is key.

thumbsup.gif (to painter) We're on the same page

GH, i have been in that frame of thinking for the past 6 months or so (not saying you are, but rather you brought the subject to us). I never expected the public to run with this and so i was focusing mostly on what I could do to better survive the coming storm. But what's next?

We need the vast majority of people on this planet to ever take this aristocracy down. Otherwise, we would continue to exist as we do today, in our own little subculture and the rest of the world oblvious to the so called truth. Even that would end as technology gets closer and closer to complete societal control. I'm starting to believe that even if the pessimistic side is most likely more accurate, it's still good to err on the side of optimism as long as there is a chance. Not to get new age-y/law of attraction type stuff here, but seriously. If i don't give my mind a chance for the best possible outcome, how could i ever expect it to happen?
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George Hayduke
post Jan 24 2007, 04:47 PM
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Right.
Well, let's talk about the prospects of the TM bearing fruit.
First, who are prospective Truthers. From a demographic standpoint they are a minority. Without going into detail let's talk about who we can reach out to and what our chances of succeeding at converting that person.

First, understand that I define maturity by the extent to which you have developed your "envelope of concern."



So let's say this target represents your envelope of concern.

At the center is you. Moving outward ring by ring you have your immediate family, then your extended familly and friends clan, then your neighborhood, then your community, then your state, then the region, then the nation, then the world and the last ring is the earth ecosystem.

With me?

How far out from the center you are determines how mature you are in my eyes. So the crackhead who thinks only of himself and says, "f*ck everyone else," is at the bullseye and no further. So is a three-year-old child.

Meanwhile the earth ecosystems professor's envelope of concern spans the entire target.

Now who is going to be a truther?

Clearly you have to reaching those outer two rings. You have to have a world view. If you are only concerned about what is best for this country, being what it is, then the false-flag op that led us to be imperial conquerors of the oil reserves of Asia was a great thing.

So we're talking about a small number of folks who have, let's see, shall we say a mostly accurate world view that they rely on to make decisions. Most people don't have a world view.

Moving on:

Of those who have an expansive enough envelope of concern, then only the ones willing to risk becoming an enemy of the state will do anything more than passively support the TM. What I mean is the aforementioned biology professor must also not be a pussy, scared of his own government and whatnot.

So the number shrinks.

Apply this logic to the bulk of those in the peace movement and see what number you get. If the peace movement consists mostly of people with largely accurate world views and expansive envelopes of concern, then what number of these folks are going to have the guavas to ratchet it up to the next step?

Then take it a step further.

Of that indisputably small number, bigger than it would be without the internet but small no doubt, what number is going to be willing to become active on a local level, organize activist chapters that connect with a national movement, take it to the streets, organize or participate in strikes and protests?

Again the number shrinks.

So, hey, I'm not ruling out the success of the TM. I'm saying that it takes time. With enough time we can reach out to enough people and get that number high enough that we can make something happen. That's what I believe. Now my opinion, and I am sticking to it, is that we are almost out of time. We have maybe 18 months.

If Giuliani gets appointed president we get 4 more years. If not, then the TM dies indicating the ultimate defeat of the last of the progressive movements. Hope you know how to survive without fresh water, sewage, basic infrastructure and how to evade the lawdogs; b/c there is potential things could get hairy here over the course of the next half decade.

This post has been edited by George Hayduke: Jan 24 2007, 04:49 PM
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painter
post Jan 25 2007, 12:49 AM
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George, your choice of a concentric circle as a schematic for the way people socialize into what you're calling matuity is indicative of an "old school" way of thinking about what an individual actually is. I grant this is a model of how you see yourself, perhaps how we all see ourselves; but the fact is it is a flawed epistemology and THAT is part of the problem.

Take the human organism as an example. Where is the "central most cell" in that organism? You see, an organism -- and ecological systems ARE organisms -- has no "one place" that is a center. Or you could just as well say that "every place" is the center. It's true, we think of ourselves as independent individuals each at the center of our own reality bubble but that is just the problem: That VIEW contains within it the very seeds of our current predicament.

Lets take this from the most basic perspective. Lets talk, for a moment, about "an atom" -- which we like to think of as the "building blocks" of our physical world. Well, "atoms" are very peculiar things as I'm sure you know; they behave under certain conditions as particles and under other observed parameters they exhibit the qualities of waves. Some have put forward the notion "wavical" to try and accommodate this apparent contradiction within our mind-set or ordinary paradigm. (Note, there is no 'contradiction' but what there is is an error in our epistemology or way of understanding the world.) But, of course, as well as all this, the "atom" is composed of "sub atomic particles" which, when we try and observe them more closely, exhibit very quixotic (and "chaotic") properties, when we can "observe" them at all.

Here's what I'm getting at. We have this idea of ONE THING -- but there is no ONE THING anywhere in the universe. ONE THING is a concept, and that is all it is. It functions as a way of understanding things. For example, I have sitting next to me "A CUP." All well and good. I can point to "THE cup," I can pick it up, drink from it, put it down, wash it out or throw it away. This all makes perfect sense -- but it isn't reality. The fact is, there is no "THE cup" at all; what there is is a field of energy formed of matter which itself is formed of molecules which themselves are formed of atoms where are formed of sub-atomic 'particles' and so on. As long as I stay in relation to the cup at the level of my physical body, it is easy enough for me to relate to the cup as a 'thing'. But if I begin to get right down into what 'the thing' IS, what I discover is that it, well, NOT ONE THING at all -- but a very complex relationship of 'things' (including empty space and energy in constant flux).

As much as this is true for this cup, it is far more true for you and I and everyone and everything else on this planet manifesting in this particular time frame we call 'our life times'. When you get right down to it, where do "I" end and where do "I" begin? Am I not, more than anything else, a figment of my own imagination? Where is the inner and outer boundary of "you"? You think it is you skin, perhaps, and you can get away with thinking that for a while, even though it isn't so. YOU are made up of fields of energy AND energy is information. (Gregory Bateson, one of the geniuses of the last century had a lot to say on this topic and you can find it in the form of a lecture he presented in 1970 in the Library section of my web site, HERE.) Your are in a constant state of energy exchange with your environment -- and this is true whether we're talking about exchanges of oxygen and nitrogen or exchanges of matter as food or waste as fertelizer or energy as intelligence and 'mind' on a global scale. Whether we like it or not we are all apart of one another and a part of 'the whole' that is life on Earth-- and this isn't a metaphor or a nice, "newagey" and poetic way of thinking. It is a far more acurate epistemology than the one that underlies your assumed concentric individualism.

So, where am I going with this? What I'm putting forward to you is the possibility that people's view of themselves and the world in which they exist, first of all, is not 'fixed' and 'unchangeable' but, quite the contrary, part of a process of unfolding through time. You realize that it was only 500 years ago that people began to get the idea that the earth wasn't flat and that the sun didn't go round and round in the heavens along with the stars. What we call the Renaissance was in fact the beginning of a revolution in human understanding that has brought us to this day. Prior to this time, if you'd told someone that the Earth was round, they would have thought you insane, or, perhaps worse, some sort of demon or witch, and would have dealt with you accordingly. That is no longer the case.

So, you see, things change -- albeit not necessarily as we would like. If you read the Bateson lecture I pointed to, you'll see that he said THEN that, given the THEN flow of history, we had maybe 30 years to begin to learn to "think in the new way" (as he called it) before our old epistemological habits destroyed us. His time frame has unfortunately turned out to be fairly accurate.

Now, here we are. The thing I see, though, is that the ideas that Bateson (and many others at that time) was putting forward into the intellectual ecology of our civilization haven't born fruit -- not so much because they are beyond people as they do something which was CONSCIOUSLLY NOT WANTED by a very select group of individuals. The PTB elite -- whatever you want to call them -- got it: The consequence of this "new way of thinking" invariably led to A DECENTRALIZATION OF THE MARKETS, especially the energy markets -- and thus they intentionally began to 'suppress' these ideas -- by academic negligence if nothing else. In any event, they were NOT 'popularized' and this has led to all sorts of dissonance within our society -- indeed led us to the very precipice we find ourselves on today.

The interesting thing, to me, is that IDEAS have a life of their own. Although I can imagine an 'apocalypse' of various sorts (and have been anticipating one my whole life), I can also imagine other alternatives. The world is transforming right in front of us, and you and I and everyone else reading these words are a part of that transformation. It may be that horrible things are yet going to come our way that will make 9/11 and New Orleans -- even Hiroshima and Nagasaki -- look tame by comparison. That really is possible. Perhaps the very scenarios we've seen on film -- such as "The Day After Tomorrow"-- will unfold. But one thing I've learned in my almost 60 years of existing on this planet: THE FUTURE IS NEVER EXACTLY THE WAY I THINK IT WILL BE. It always surprises me.

And given my propensity, that is a good thing.

In certain respects it may very well be that this whole enterprise that is unfolding around us is the DEATH THROWS of a particular HIERARCHICAL form of social organization which humanity is now ready to over-throw once and for all. Seriously. No, it won't happen overnight and it won't happen as a consequence of one 'issue' -- even one as big as 9/11 -- but don't ever think it can't happen. It can, and it just might.
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George Hayduke
post Jan 25 2007, 07:22 AM
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QUOTE (painter @ Jan 25 2007, 04:49 AM)
What I'm putting forward to you is the possibility that people's view of themselves and the world in which they exist, first of all, is not 'fixed' and 'unchangeable' but, quite the contrary, part of a process of unfolding through time. You realize that it was only 500 years ago that people began to get the idea that the earth wasn't flat and that the sun didn't go round and round in the heavens along with the stars.

Right. I agree and wasn't presenting thoughts that would indicate I thought otherwise, in my opinion. I guess I oversimplified my thoughts at the risk of failing to make a clear point.

What I was saying was when recruiting we Truthers are searching for folks concerned about more than their own flaming sh*t. Currently, that demographic is small. That's all I was saying, perhaps in a round about way.

But a good point is to be taken from this. Conservatives supposedly argue that man is brutish, petty, lazy, selfish, scared and in need of governing; concerned almost entirely with his own flaming sh*t. I say this is mostly true. Mankind has potential to become something else. But for the moment, most people can't even bring themselves to think about much more than their own selfish plots. That is why historical figures like Gandhi, ML King and Malik El-Shabazz are so important and are anomalies in a way. People, because they are so wrapped in themselves (and granted this isn't always the case and granted people have potential to rise above this condition but currently to me appear not to be) that they clearly need strong leaders, like Gandhi and King. They can bring themselves to rally around a person or to hate a person (such as the president). At the same time they struggle to grasp the ideas that person is trumpeting.

In other words ideas aren't enough for the average person. They need a face to go with those ideas. They need energy embodied in a person speaking of those ideas. Why, because people are petty like that, and scared.

So I think the TM needs time to develop its leaders or it needs an already established leader to embrace it, again requiring more than the 18 or so months I think we have.

Hope this clarifies things some.

This post has been edited by George Hayduke: Jan 25 2007, 07:25 AM
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painter
post Jan 25 2007, 12:26 PM
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QUOTE (George Hayduke @ Jan 25 2007, 03:22 AM)
<s>
What I was saying was when recruiting we Truthers are searching for folks concerned about more than their own flaming sh*t. Currently, that demographic is small. That's all I was saying, perhaps in a round about way.
<s>

No, I understood that. I can think of one truther everyone here knows going back to the beginnings of the LC forum who was hardly socially conscious prior to awakening to 9/11. He identified as "conservative" and "Republican" and bought into the whole war on terror bull sh*t hook line and sinker and if you asked him he'd tell you just that. His attitude toward "liberals" was negative verging on hostile and toward anything "socially conscious" at best just plane 'couldn't care less'. AND it took him time to "wake up." The first time he heard anything about it he thought the person telling him (more in the liberal camp) was just a fruit-cake nut case. However, at some point, something in him changed and once that happened he became obsessed with finding out what was really going on AND in alerting others. He's probably shown more movies to more people and handed out more DVDs than any one of us here (just a guess but it is not an exaggeration). The point being, he wasn't like this before. He didn't fall into the demographic you're describing. He changed and changed radically because of what, in the 60s, we used to call "a radicalizing moment." That is, a 'trigger moment' of awareness that radically alters one's sense of self/world.

9/11 was DESIGNED to be a "radicalizing moment" for everyone in the US (and, to a lesser extent, beyond). I'm sure I don't need to spell this out for you. It had an effect on all of us -- different, perhaps, for each of us depending upon our political 'couch' at that moment -- but it was shock and grief for every one of us, I don't doubt. It reflected back to us a perception of vulnerability -- that we could be the victims of terror anytime, anywhere -- and was thus used to set the domestic and foreign policy course we've been on for the past six years.

So, what is it going to take to turn the situation around? What alternate "radicalizing moment" can be created?

In the DRAMATIC sense of the word, I don't know the answer to that question. I mean if someone were able to hijack the emergency management broadcast system and get conclusive evidence that 9/11 was a fraud out to the whole country in the space of 1 to 5 minutes, I suppose that would be pretty dramatic and would cause a stir -- but I don't expect that's going to happen (and might even backfire, anyway).

However, in the less dramatic (but, perhaps, no less powerful) sense of the word we HAVE been doing that. I think they expected to be further along in their agenda than they are. I think they didn't anticipate the 'shock and awe' of 9/11 would be worn through so quickly (in large measure because people like us have been spreading the word, now, for years, and uncovering more and more evidence all the time). I suspect the kindling is now in place and that all that is needed is the right match or spark to ignite it.

I also think that all this is bigger than 9/11. 9/11 is a SYMPTOM of a much larger problem -- you and I know that. That's the other part of what we have to do -- peel back the scab that has been festering under the guise of the national security state for the past half century or so. And, behind that, we have the puss of it all: The international central banks. I'm sure you and I don't have any problem seeing this -- it is our fellows who have the problem but that, too, can change, given the right 'circumstances'.

Let me ask you this: If we COULD replace the current global economic system, WHAT would we replace it with?
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George Hayduke
post Jan 25 2007, 12:39 PM
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I'm not an economist but I think Keynes was dead on. Of course that is a heckuva question so I'll let it go at that and then turn the tables. Painter, if we COULD replace the current global economic system, what would we replace it with?
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post Jan 25 2007, 01:23 PM
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QUOTE (George Hayduke @ Jan 25 2007, 08:39 AM)
I'm not an economist but I think Keynes was dead on. Of course that is a heckuva question so I'll let it go at that and then turn the tables. Painter, if we COULD replace the current global economic system, what would we replace it with?

LoL laugh.gif

I'm not an economist, either, George; hell I don't even balance my check book and haven't for thirty years. I'm just a "dumb artist," you know. I'm sure you know more about economics than I do. I've never read anything in the subject area for fear it would just put me to sleep. I am slightly aware of the Solari model, which makes some sense to me.

In a very general and vague way I've thought that what is needed is a new economic 'ecology'. IOW, the one we have now seems to be controlled, or at the least heavily influenced, by a small group of highly influential investor/traders (global monetary markets) -- when what is needed is something that is more decentralized and dispersed. This is very vague, I know and how to get from here to there -- or even exactly what 'there' is -- who knows.

One thought I've had is that we might think about the current economic model as being a kind of technological infrastructure that is no longer useful to the vast majority of people. IF SOMETHING ELSE were to come along in the market place of ideas, the old one could be replaced as easily and quickly as personal computers replaced typewriters and the typing pools of yesteryear (and it wasn't that long ago). Again, I'm of the opinion that a lot of what is going on around us now isn't derived from lack of energy resources (as the 'peak oilers' would want us to believe). What is happening is a last-ditch attempt by the hegemons to maintain the top-down and centralized control of ALL the markets, especially the energy markets.

Anyway, I know this is no help, just yakking away. I have to get busy and make art which, for me, is taking raw materials that cost very little and turning them into 'products' that people want to pay me and my gallery to own. It is a very weird business -- but, you know, from my point of view, I have to ask why the 'medium of exchange' between you, my market, and I has to be DOLLARS whose value are determined outside of our exchange (in a global market). I really don't 'get' that at all but, then, as I said, I'm just a dumb artist. Why don't we just say 'f*ck you' to the FED and start exchanging in any currency we choose? Why don't you and I establish a bank that will accept any currency we want to exchange in? I mean, it isn't like the technology to do that doesn't exist.

Etc.
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post Feb 1 2007, 12:21 AM
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liberty-911
post Mar 10 2007, 05:22 PM
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QUOTE (johndoeX @ Jan 3 2007, 11:42 AM)
http://patriotsquestion911.com

list gets updated regularly. One of the best and most powerful sites on the net in my opinion.

Why do we not have a new investigation yet? The media... the corporate owned, mainstream whore media!


pisses me off... angry.gif

I believe I read some where on this site where you haven't seen television in two months. So yesterday I turned in my cable box and disconnected service. This accomplishes two things. First your not paying someone to tell you Lies. Second it hits the Corporate Media where it hurts the most, in the pocket. When all of the stock holders out there start losing money maybe some of the News Readers will start losing their jobs. So I purchased an outside antenna just to receive PBS. If people get organized and turn off pay televison it will not be long before something happens.
Next, I purchased 25 DVD's of September 11th Revisited version two from www.911revisited.com for 5.00 dollars each in bulk. You can also buy one and make copies. You can find the link on the home page, upper left section look for new version. Or maybe one of the many computer guru' s can embed it on this site. So my plan of attack is to hand them out at Military Recruiting Offices. If they don't know about the Lie's that started this War, they will now. Maybe instead of recruiting young men and women, they will run them off. All I can do is try.

The best way to win the War against Lies is to terminate service. If you hear something over and over again fom all direction, eventually you believe them.
Can you move this post to the Activism category, Oh thats right, it doesn't exist.

This post has been edited by liberty-911: Mar 10 2007, 05:38 PM
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chucksheen
post Apr 3 2007, 02:57 AM
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QUOTE (George Hayduke @ Jan 25 2007, 11:39 AM)
I'm not an economist but I think Keynes was dead on. Of course that is a heckuva question so I'll let it go at that and then turn the tables. Painter, if we COULD replace the current global economic system, what would we replace it with?

http://www.permatopia.com

Is this of interest to anyone?

This post has been edited by chucksheen: Apr 3 2007, 02:57 AM
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