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Lightpoles At Pentagon, wanting a pilot's perspective.

kriptonian7
post Oct 14 2011, 03:16 PM
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Hi guys,

im new, and I searched the threads and did not see anythign answering what I was inquiring. SO please excuse me if it has been beat to death. Please direct me to the link and ill read.

This is what i was wondering. Concerning flight 77 allegedly hitting the light poles on it's route to the Pentagon. I am imagining all the possibilites of what would happen. I do not know a whole lot about planes and their materials, but these are the things I imagined what would have happened based on what i have read, and my basic understanding of physics.

1: I would imagine the plane wings (depending on where they were hit would the poles) would not pull them completely from the ground especially if the were struck closer to the top. I imagine them being hit, bent over and be laying in a reasonable agle from its base. (if that makes sense) if even pulled from the ground. All the pics ive seen are just removed from the base and harldy a bend inthe poles.

2: would a plane wing be able to just pull those poles out of the ground? The way all the animations make it seem is that they wings are fragile and tear easily. Which this goes with a story of a plane on its way to Houston Bush airport hitting a pole and taking half the wing off upon landing. I thought this would have been more along what would have happened. Maybe finding parts of wings further back on the bridge from its contact.

3: Based on the plane speed would the wing be able to slash though the poles? I doubt this but its just something else I imagined. But light poles are not made from aluminum. I assume they are made of steel from the few things I read.

Also wouldnt the poles be hit in a sequencially lower spot the closer they are to the pentagon?

These are the things I have been trying to string together some answers, maybe you guys can help me put it together.
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lunk
post Oct 15 2011, 03:37 AM
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QUOTE (kriptonian7 @ Oct 14 2011, 11:16 AM) *
Hi guys,

im new, and I searched the threads and did not see anythign answering what I was inquiring. SO please excuse me if it has been beat to death. Please direct me to the link and ill read.

This is what i was wondering. Concerning flight 77 allegedly hitting the light poles on it's route to the Pentagon. I am imagining all the possibilites of what would happen. I do not know a whole lot about planes and their materials, but these are the things I imagined what would have happened based on what i have read, and my basic understanding of physics.

1: I would imagine the plane wings (depending on where they were hit would the poles) would not pull them completely from the ground especially if the were struck closer to the top. I imagine them being hit, bent over and be laying in a reasonable agle from its base. (if that makes sense) if even pulled from the ground. All the pics ive seen are just removed from the base and harldy a bend inthe poles.

2: would a plane wing be able to just pull those poles out of the ground? The way all the animations make it seem is that they wings are fragile and tear easily. Which this goes with a story of a plane on its way to Houston Bush airport hitting a pole and taking half the wing off upon landing. I thought this would have been more along what would have happened. Maybe finding parts of wings further back on the bridge from its contact.

3: Based on the plane speed would the wing be able to slash though the poles? I doubt this but its just something else I imagined. But light poles are not made from aluminum. I assume they are made of steel from the few things I read.

Also wouldnt the poles be hit in a sequencially lower spot the closer they are to the pentagon?

These are the things I have been trying to string together some answers, maybe you guys can help me put it together.


1-Planes that hit some solid "thing" usually crash.

2-Planes that hit a 30 foot light-pole, and knock it over, normally crash.

3-A plane, slashing through a light-pole will damage its wing, likely causing the plane to crash.

It appears that the light-poles were taken down in advance,
they were not even on the observed flight-path.

"The plane" likely flew over a demolition site, that was part of a building where people
that just happened to be looking into missing trillions of dollars of "unaccountable" money,
announced the day before.

The grounds around the pentagon are heavily patrolled, and controlled.
Any body actually watching the plane, flying toward the pentagon, would have been temporarily blinded by a "bright flash" allowing the plane to fly over, without being seen.
All the video evidence has been confiscated by officials and has not been released.
except for 5 fish-eyed frames, not showing much of anything.

these are my own conclusions, so far.

welcome to the forums.

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23investigator
post Oct 15 2011, 08:53 AM
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[quote name='kriptonian7' date='Oct 15 2011, 04:46 AM' post='10801976']
Hi guys,

im new, and I searched the threads and did not see anythign answering what I was inquiring. SO please excuse me if it has been beat to death. Please direct me to the link and ill read.

This is what i was wondering. Concerning flight 77 allegedly hitting the light poles on it's route to the Pentagon. I am imagining all the possibilites of what would happen. I do not know a whole lot about planes and their materials, but these are the things I imagined what would have happened based on what i have read, and my basic understanding of physics.

Dear 'kriptonian7'

Every body is entitled to their own take on these things, and with respect to 'lunks' opinion I do not wish to be in contest.

Your question deserves an answer, which could perhaps start with this consideration.

The poles in question are designed to function as street lights.
The manufacturer could be contacted, as they would be required by regulations to satisfy certain criteria.

As you probably realise light poles being hit by aircraft is not an everyday event.
Their design is most likely such as to deal with ground vehicle contact which would probably be centred at about 6 feet above ground level.
The design would take into account for its normal function, mainly to deal with bending moment at the base of the column to deal with wind load on the column itself and the light on top of it.

This allows the column to be tapered towards the top.
The bending moment being resisted by an increasing section towards the base.

With an aircraft hitting the top of the column, it could be considered as a point load creating a moment about the base of the column.
The column may well be able to bend a considerable amount before the structure at the bottom was caused to go into failure.
The photographs appear to show this as a fabricated box section bolted to a base plate set in the ground.

This fixing would have been the failing part of the structure, unless the actual column at the top where it was hit was sheared through.

As this should be a known capability of the light column design, this seems a sensible point to start considerations, as perhaps the impact force on a long moment arm may not have been as much as has been considered necessary.

Just some thoughts for you.
It seems to me to be an exercise well worth carrying through, with the manufacturer of the poles.
Who knows what we all might learn.

Robert

This post has been edited by 23investigator: Oct 15 2011, 09:06 AM
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kriptonian7
post Oct 17 2011, 04:19 PM
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So the poles being bent and pulled from the ground, or pulled out of the ground and seared in 2 pieces, doesnt make any sense to me. I do not believe that the poles would sever the wing completely off. Poles are designed to collapse from car impacts to lessen the damage to a driver from the base. But the damage seems inconsistent. Also one wing making contact 3 times and the other twice, i would imagine the plane becoming more unstable and and not level. Maybe tilting it or pulling it off its trajectery. Then again this may just be due to my igonrance to aviation, aeronautics, and light pole design. One pole maybe, but minimum two, then a third i would think would throw the plane off.

Which brings me to the 5 frames that Lunk mentioned...whatever that object shown in the vid is low and level and flying very close to the ground without any varience in its flight path it seems.

I have also been reading more about the Taxi cab and the driver. That pole went through his windshield? Hes walking around like its nothing after missing death by centimeters. And he said he pulled the pole out of the cab winsheild. I have read that those poles can weight minimum 200 pounds. Mr. Lloyd a little old to be toating 200 lbs & 18 ft light pole out of cab windows....and without damaging the hood of his cab.

For the reconrd. I do not beileve flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon. But i have spent the better part of 6 years trying to convince myself otherwise. I have slowly been finding more and more intelligent peopleto bounce ideas off of that do not go straight to the government conspiracy angle. I guess I want as much info as I can so I can debate issues with correct assumptions when it comes to this topic.

thanks for your input
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23investigator
post Oct 17 2011, 09:06 PM
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QUOTE (kriptonian7 @ Oct 18 2011, 05:49 AM) *
For the reconrd. I do not beileve flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon. But i have spent the better part of 6 years trying to convince myself otherwise. I have slowly been finding more and more intelligent peopleto bounce ideas off of that do not go straight to the government conspiracy angle. I guess I want as much info as I can so I can debate issues with correct assumptions when it comes to this topic.

thanks for your input


Dear 'kriptonian7'

You are welcome.
Whilst I don't believe a Boeing 757 hit the building either, although it would seem (from description given by numerous people), that one was around the place at the time of the explosion at the Pentagon west wall, I don't discount so lightly, that some form of 'flying object' could have hit and knocked down light poles on a different flight path to that of the Boeing 757.

The footage you refer to where the object 'aircraft' shown first appears, whilst a long distance from the camera, suggests that the 'flying object' is very close to the ground, if in fact not in contact with it.
Various people who could well have been talking about the 'flying object' and not the Boeing 757, refer to the fact that they observed the 'flying object' was far from flying in a stable manner.
Some suggesting it actually hit the ground before it hit the building and exploded as their vision of events appeared.
The description of the wobbling of the wings given by these people, suggests the flight of the object was far from stable.

It appears you may have missed the point I was making with the 'flexibility' of the light poles, with the bending force applied at the top end of the pole, which could possibly cause the pole to flex some considerable distance before it remained bent.
Although looking at the photographs shows some were broken off near the top, the region where this occured was crushed and sheared, the actual break away, could have been as a result to the pole hitting the ground and in the weakened state breaking apart.

The leading edge of some type of wing construction can be very strong, and certainly 'sharp', which concentrates any force through it, like an edge on a knife or an axe.
This could then engage the wing in a manner which would be 'keyed' to the pole, until the angle bent caused the wing to pass over the pole.
No doubt this would cause damage to at least, the leading edge of the wing and perhaps deeper into the wing section, where the next thing in the wing involved would be the longnitudinal spars which again can be quite strong, "needing to be for the wing to be able to function".

This consideration is no where near as 'simplistic' as it appears you seem to want it to be.

Robert

This post has been edited by 23investigator: Oct 18 2011, 03:21 AM
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onesliceshort
post Oct 18 2011, 11:48 AM
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The aircraft was not on the trajectory to cause the damage to the lightpoles.



I would work it from there.
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