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Sanders' Religion Thread, Begun @ LC Forum

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post Nov 11 2006, 08:08 AM
Post #21





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Posted by: Sanders Jul 29 2006, 07:04 AM

QUOTE
I feel, Sanders, that the fingers may be moving toward the triggers to fire the first shots of WWIII.


You mean in Lebanon or here? I thought all the posts were good reads - roger was a little reckless as he always is with his wording choices ("god is coming to eat you") but pretty funny too so I'll let it slide...

QUOTE
Perhaps future historians will be able to trace the influence of the Prophets on Egypt and Mesopotamia (or Ur or Sumeria).


Enlighten us !

Also, we need to put stuff in context time-wise. Abraham was, what, around 2000 BC ? And he came from Ur, right? Ur looks like it's in Southern Iraq on a modern map to me...

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/5354/sumereu4.gif

Also I read somwhere that Ur is the birthplace of law - just gooled Ur and got this.

"Ur-Nammu's Code, dates from this time. Although called Ur-Nammu's Code, it is generally agreed that it was written by his son Shugli. (The code allowed for the dismissal of corrupt men, protection of the poor, giving testomony under oath, and the ability of judges to order damages be paid to a victim by the guilty party)."

Ah, those were the days, eh?

OK, thanks eveyone for the great posts - anyone is free to move on to what happens to Abraham's kids BTW -
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:08 AM
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Posted by: water_bender Jul 29 2006, 07:40 AM

if we're really gonna get t the nitty gritty of it all 3 sects of the abrahamic religions can be traced back to babylon and zoroastor (who is also a prophet btw, also know as zarathustra). it was his brand of religion that setup the initial ideas of a heaven, hell, angels, judgement day, etc. and yaweh was a originally a god of wind. but yes the three sects are quite similar, with judeaism being the opressive controlling, wealth obsessed core. christianity being the 'light' version that centers power in the church, and then islam which is also split between shiite and sunni one thats as oppressive as judaism, minus the wealth, plus women hatred and the other has the same only adding in violence as a way of glorifying god.
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:09 AM
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Posted by: Chris Sarns Jul 29 2006, 07:51 AM

GreatMuslim: Don't take offence at sanders satire or rogers rhetoric. It was ment to be humorous while expressing a vpoint of view.

For what it's worth, here's my 'religion'

There is only God, everything else is bullshit

God is the life force that flows through all living things

We must therefore love and respect all living things

That which brings us togeather is good, that which separates us is bad

Take only that from your religion which is good and discard the rest
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:09 AM
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Posted by: pr0mythius Jul 29 2006, 08:04 AM

isnt it safe to say that any one ever called a prophet is really no more than just someone that said something that made sense to a lotta people so they deamed it as truth .. or the forecasting there of?
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:09 AM
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Posted by: Sanders Jul 29 2006, 11:58 AM

QUOTE (Chris Sarns @ Jul 29 2006 @ 04:51 PM)
GreatMuslim: Don't take offence at sanders satire or rogers retoric. It was ment to be humorous while expressing a vpoint of view.

For what it's worth, here's my 'religion'

There is only God, everything else is bullshit

God is the life force that flows through all living things

We must therefore love and respect all living things

That which brings us togeather is good, that which separates us is bad

Take only that from your religion which is good and discard the rest

Thanks Chris. I do tend to inject a little sarcasm once in a while - I mean no disrespect by it. For anyone who cares, I personally am not religious - it's funny, I think I was a happier human being before I found "darwin". But I support people believing in what they want - I wonder sometimes if the world would be a better, more peaceful place without monotheistic religion, or an even more chaotic one. Food for thought, eh? Either way, I agree with Jimmy Carter (Our Endangered Values: America's Moral Crisis) that 'fundamentalism' in any denomination is dangerous. "That which brings us togeather is good, that which separates us is bad" (ChrisSarns from above).

The posts from GreatMuslim were about the best posts from you I think I've ever read - thanks for straightening me out.

The business of which son Abraham was told to sacrifice is a point of contention, the Bible and the Quran differ on this, and the two versions support different versions of what was promised to which progeny - but really, the point is that this was the source, these stories are where the 3 religions sprang from. The details can't be seriously argued - I mean, according to the Bible Sarah was 90 when she had Isaac? 90 ?? Abraham lived to 175 ??

But what do we know about the minds of people several thousand years ago, or the liberties that were common in the telling of stories? I have heard that the Quran is like poetry - and the speed with which the Islamic faith converted peoples is partially attributed to the beauty of the book's prose - something that can't be appreciated when read in anything but Arabic.

I can only imagine this story told in Arabic:

"Abraham had left Mecca on God’s command, leaving Hagar and Ishmael with only some water and dates. Hagar nursed her son and they drank the remaining water. Soon thereafter, faced with great thirst, Ishmael started to cry and Hagar began to run between the hills of Safa and Marwa looking for water. She repeated the journey seven times until an angel appeared to her, striking the ground with his wing, with the result that the Zamzam spring, which Muslims consider as a tributary of the waters of Paradise, sprang forth. Henceforth Mecca was graced with a source of water which has continued flowing to this day."

Ironically, right after that passage is this, which is right where I wanted to go -

QUOTE
After the departure and return of Abraham to Mecca, and his discovery that Hagar had died, Abraham was then ordered by God to make Hagar’s house into a temple where people could pray. Therefore, he demolished the house and began construction of the Ka’ba. God gave Abraham precise instructions concerning how to rebuild the shrine and Gabriel showed him the location. It is said that by the grace of God the Divine Peace (al-sakinah) descended in the form of a wind which brought a cloud in the shape of a dragon that revealed to Abraham and Ishmael the site of the old temple. They were told to construct the shrine directly upon the shadow of the cloud, neither exceeding nor diminishing its dimensions. Legends say the shrine was built from the stones of five sacred mountains: Mt. Sinai, the Mount of Olives, Mt. Lebanon, Al-Judi, and nearby Mt. Hira. Upon the completion of the shrine, Gabriel brought a magic stone for the sanctuary. Different sources speculate that this stone was a meteorite or a great white sapphire from the Garden of Eden, that it had been concealed on the nearby sacred mountain of Abu Qubays during the period of the flood, and that it was later restored to Abraham for inclusion in his version of the Ka’ba. Whatever its ultimate origin, the stone was most probably a sacred object of the pre-Islamic Arabian nomads who had settled around the Zamzam spring that flows at the center of old Mecca. Upon completion of the Ka’ba, Abraham and Ishmael, accompanied by the archangel Gabriel, then performed all the elements which constitute the Hajj ritual of today

Now I am easily confused about all this, and I was searching around to find out where Isaac went, and I was surprised to read in this which isn't particularly worthy of reading really, but it said that "When Sarah and Abraham are in Egypt, on their way to the Promised Land, Hagar, an Egyptian girl, becomes a handmaiden for Sarah." ??? I thought Abraham was from Ur, which is in southern Iraq. Is Egypt on the way to the promised land? (Ahhhhh, the first historical proof that men don't like to ask directions tongue.gif )

I finally figured out that Isaac didn't go anywhere. They were already in the (present) West Bank.

From this, http://www.nisbett.com/people/bp-abraham.htm , Abraham settled in Hebron (30km south of Jeruselem) where all these events took place.

Seems Turturis was right on the money about the handmadens:

"Jacob was born of Isaac in Hebron, twin with Esau, he was married with Leah and Raquel, and had 12 children, the 12 tribes of Israel: 6 with Leah, 2 with Rachel, 2 with the the servant of Leah, and 2 with the servant of Rachel."

12 tribes of Israel anyone?

(PS. FL2, Specimen, waterbender, Facsinating about matriarchy in Egypt, Is Ra El, Zoroator etc... I'll have to read up)
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:09 AM
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Posted by: ICE420 Jul 29 2006, 01:55 PM


I´m Atheist, but am interested to see peoples reactions and beliefs, especially not being biased to any side makes for a very interesting subject matter for debate and to see how people are going to deal with certain arguments



I think that Sanders Idea for this thread is a good one and one that will fuel a lot of attention.

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post Nov 11 2006, 08:09 AM
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Posted by: usediscernment Jul 29 2006, 02:25 PM


Just want to make sure we are on the same page.
What is a Christian?
Please consider what God’s Word, the Bible has to say about the name "Christian". People in our society as well as those around the world have many ideas of what the term Christian means and where it came from. Many from other countries consider the United States of America to be a "Christian" nation. Years ago that term may have fit our nation but not any longer, at best we could be called a "Post Christian" country. As we will see from the Bible a Christian or a Christian nation should act like the name it bears.
Many who live and were born in America consider themselves to be Christians. Some simply because they were born here, others because they are not Muslim, Hindu, or some other religion. Most that would consider themselves to be Christian do so because they have gone to church and believe in certain creeds, teachings, and doctrines. Lets take these thoughts and ideas to the Bible and see how well they hold up.
First, lets see where the term Christian came from. In the book of Acts 11:26 "So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church and taught a great many people. And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch." This term Christian was not a complementary term. It was used in a derogatory way. But it identified those that were followers of Jesus Christ with Him. For you see the root word of Christian is Christ. The word Christian actually means "Christ like", a follower of Christ. Prior to this name which has become the most recognized name given to those that are followers of Jesus Christ, various other names were ascribed. Names such as "The Way", a "Sect", "Fools", and other unkind names.
Notice from the verse previously cited what Christians were known as prior to being called Christians, they were known as disciples. The word disciple comes from the Greek word "mathetes", which means: learner, follower, student, and disciple. Listen to the qualifications that Jesus gave for those that would be His disciples. In the Gospel of Mark 8:34-38 "When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, "Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels." Then in Matthew 10:37-39 Jesus tells us, "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it."
From these Scriptures, which is only a reflection of what Jesus has to say in many others verses, a Christian/disciple is one who: believes that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life; who chooses to surrender his or her life to Jesus and His will; who chooses to love Jesus more than anything and anyone else; who chooses to turn his or her back on all else that they may follow Jesus, learn of Him, and become like Him.
According to the Bible the word disciple and Christian should be synonymous. Unfortunately this is not the case in our society today. A Christian is someone that goes to church and believes (makes an intellectual accent) to some truths about Jesus, but doesn’t let it affect his or her life too much. They don’t become a "fanatic" about this Jesus stuff. A disciple on the other hand is considered to be quite a bit more serious. They take God at His Word, they seek to live their life by what the Bible says, they are considered to be a little radical even fanatical. God makes no such distinctions in His Word. It is a tragedy that the church has made two classes if Christianity. It should not be so.
How does a person become a Christian? It is not by certain rites, rituals, or baptisms. The Bible tells us that we are born into it. Listen to what Jesus said to a very religious man by the name of Nicodemus in John 3:3, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." In much the same way a person becomes a member of a human family (by physical birth), a person becomes a member of God’s family through spiritual birth. The Bible uses the term Born Again or Born of the Spirit.
This takes place when a person recognizes that they are a sinner (a breaker of God’s Law), acknowledges and confesses their sin to God, asks for forgiveness, repents of his sin, turns to Jesus Christ in faith for Salvation, accepting Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. It is all a matter of faith in the Wonderful Grace of God. As Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." God has done it all through His Son Jesus Christ. All you need do is turn to Him in faith. The moment a person does this he or she becomes a Christian.
For many this is far too simplistic. They say "There must be more, I must do something, I must do some kind of work, follow some rites or rituals. No! You can not do anything, only believe. I know this is a blow to man’s pride and ego. We like to think that we should have something to do with it. But we can’t, if we did we would for certain mess it up and it would cease to be grace. For you see grace is God’s unmerited favor toward mankind. If it could be earned, bought, or worked for it would no longer be grace. It would then be salvation based upon works and that is what "religion" is, man working his way to heaven. Heaven can never be obtained this way, because it says the sacrifice God gave in His Son is not enough. What a slap in the face of the Almighty God.
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:09 AM
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Posted by: BoneZ Jul 29 2006, 03:10 PM


tend to take a more scientific approach to religion. Here's a little sample of that research:

Clouds are the most common descriptions of the flying vehicles of the Elohiym. This is not surprising considering the probable size and density in daylight hours attributed to these objects. The word most often used in the Old Testament for cloud is `anan, pronounced aw-nawn'; a cloud (as covering the sky), i.e. the nimbus or thunder-cloud. The descriptions as a dark cloud, thick cloud, and dark water all allude to a solid object in the sky. Since there were no solid flying objects 2000 to 4000 years ago, and the only things close were thunder or storm clouds, this is a logical relation. For those that may cling to the belief that these are actually clouds, the flight characteristics, glowing at night, and other anomalous behavior, leaves such a narrow view very much in doubt. Perhaps the most important reference to clouds is that Jesus will return with an army in the clouds. If these clouds are not the fluffy kind, but very sophisticated flying craft, as the Bible records, then this would seem to have relevance to properly identifying that army. When Bible text says that Yhovah rides a swift cloud, are we to believe that he is literally sitting atop a cloud speeding through the sky? When the cloud turns to fire at night, are we to accept that it catches on fire, even though clouds can't burn? And when it stays in a stationary position for months, catching fire every night and burning out every morning, are we really talking about a cloud? No, this, or these, are not clouds. They are only named such because no one had ever heard about flying saucers, UFOs, spacecraft or star ships. They didn't even have balloons. The only big things in the sky during that time were clouds, so they called the objects clouds.

Exodus
34:5 And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord

Numbers
9:20 And so it was, when the cloud was a few days upon the tabernacle; according to the commandment of the Lord they abode in their tents, and according to the commandment of the Lord they journeyed. 21 And so it was, when the cloud abode from even unto the morning, and that the cloud was taken up in the morning, then they journeyed: whether it was by day or by night that the cloud was taken up, they journeyed.

10:11 And it came to pass on the twentieth day of the second month, in the second year, that the cloud was taken up from off the tabernacle of the testimony. 12 And the children of Israel took their journeys out of the wilderness of Sinai; and the cloud rested in the wilderness of Paran.

1 Kings
18:44 And it came to pass at the seventh time, that he said, Behold, there ariseth a little cloud out of the sea, like a man's hand. And he said, Go up, say unto Ahab, Prepare thy chariot, and get thee down that the rain stop thee not.

Psalms
104:3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

Isaiah
19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the Lord rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

60:8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows

Matthew
17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Revelation
11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Acts
1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.


mount

1. The act or manner of mounting.
2. A means of conveyance, such as a horse, on which to ride.
3. an opportunity to ride a horse in a race.
4. An object to which another is affixed or on which another is placed for accessibility, display, or use

Exodus
19:12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, {that ye} go {not} up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:

(13) There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether {it be} beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.

QUESTION.....
If this 'mount' is just a dirt and stone mountain, then how do you tell people not to touch a mountain? Where does a mountain start and stop?

Exodus
24:12 And the Lord said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tablets of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.
(13) And Moses rose up, and his minister Joshua: and Moses went up into the mount of God.
(18) And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into (not upon) the mount: and Moses was in (not on) the mount forty days and forty nights.

Exodus 32:19: And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tablets out of his hands, and break them beneath the mount.

The question is, "How do you 'break them beneath a mountain'? You might break something on a mountain. How about this as an explanation, "And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, (He returned to the Spaceship. The door was shut.) and he cast the tablets out of his hands, and break them beneath the mount. (he threw them under the Spaceship breaking them beneath 'the mount'.)

Exodus 33:9: And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood {at} the door of the tabernacle, and {the Lord} talked with Moses.

You have seen rockets take off. They look like cloudy pillars ascending don't they? So, is this a possible explanation. "And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, (A Shuttle Craft) and stood {at} the door of the tabernacle, and {the Lord} talked with Moses."

Here's a great link to look at some of this research:

http://www.bibleufo.com/

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post Nov 11 2006, 08:09 AM
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Posted by: chewysguitar Jul 29 2006, 03:23 PM


I seriously do not believe this thread will survive without intense clashes that are very anti-religion.

Is there any way you can make a rule about not making fun of religion? That will only help, but I still think there is no way this thread will survive without a bunch of criticizing back and forth.

This post has been edited by e-dog: Nov 11 2006, 10:24 AM
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:10 AM
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Posted by: Sanders Jul 29 2006, 04:37 PM

ICE420, thanks for the words of encouragement rolleyes.gif I worry if this thread was a bad idea or not. Ironically, I worry more about it going off in a million directions at once more than fights breaking out. As rude as it might be, I'm gonna keep trying to steer it in the direction of a chronological history...

Usediscernment, thanks for the well written post - I read it twice. I'll try to remember to copy and paste it if and when we ever get to A.D.

Not sure where UFO's fit into all this, but hey, I suppose I can believe that as soon as I'd believe that Isaac's mother was a novagenarian.

QUOTE
Is there any way you can make a rule about not making fun of religion?

Sure. Consider it a rule - No making fun of religion. (Does my reference to my shock at learning that Sarah bore Isaac at 90 constitute an infraction I wonder?)

Jacob and the 12 tribes of Israel, anyone?
Common, this is the start of the rich history of the Jews - in Egypt, of Moses, and in Canaan, of Soloman and David..
And what was going on in the Arab world all this time, or is that all irrelevant until Mohammed comes along much much later?
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:10 AM
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Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 29 2006, 04:58 PM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 29 2006 @ 04:37 PM)
Jacob and the 12 tribes of Israel, anyone?
Common, this is the start of the rich history of the Jews - in Egypt, of Moses, and in Canaan, of Soloman and David..
And what was going on in the Arab world all this time, or is that all irrelevant until Mohammed comes along much much later?

As for Jacob and the 12 tribes of Israel, Jacob had 12 sons, one who was a prophet named Joseph. According to the Qu'ran, Joseph (Arabic: Yusuf) was the son of Jacob (Arabic: Yaqub) and the great-grandson of Abraham (Arabic: Ibrahim). He was thus from a lineage of prophets, and had eleven brothers. At an early age, Joseph displayed signs of prophethood: he had a dream in which he saw eleven stars, the sun, and the moon, prostrating to him. His father, also a prophet, interpreted the dream to mean that his brothers, represented by the eleven stars, and the sun and moon, his mother and father, would bow down to his dignified position one day. Jacob also added that God would give him gifts such as dream interpretation, wisdom, grace, and honour, as well as make him a prophet.

Joseph's brothers were all jealous of his talents and the fact that their father favoured him over his other sons. They unanimously plotted to get rid of him by throwing him into a well to die. They asked their father's permission to take him out to play, who granted them their request, not wanting to isolate Joseph from his brothers. The brothers proceed with their plan and dropped him in a well and left him to die. They brought back Joseph’s shirt with them to tell their father that wolves have eaten Joseph. Jacob became very saddened at the disappearance of his son and eventually became blind.

Joseph was rescued by a passing caravan and sold into slavery in Egypt, to a rich man termed al-Aziz. The Quran names Joseph as a very attractive man (see 12:31). While working for al-Aziz, he was constantly approached by his al-Aziz's wife (Imra'at al-Aziz), she being intent on seducing him. Joseph continuously rebuffed her attempts, until one day, she became frustrated to the point where she chased him and tore the back of Joseph's shirt. Al-Aziz then walked in on the scene and became angered at what he was witnessing. Imra'at al-Aziz then proceeded to accuse Joseph of initiating the chase. A servant who witnessed the scene aided Joseph by pointing out the obvious: his shirt was torn from the back, meaning that she (Imra'at al-Aziz) was perusing Joseph, not the other way around. Being constantly put in incidents to test his faith and honour, Joseph prayed that he would rather be imprisoned that be placed through the constant ordeals he was put through.

After being imprisoned for a few years, God gave him the ability to interpret dreams, a power in which he became popular amongst the prisoners using. However, two cooks were envious of his ability, so they decided to try to fool him by making up dreams and asking him to interpret them. Joseph of course interpreted these dreams, saying that the King of Egypt would catch the cooks after they had done something illegal, one would be forgiven and the other killed. The two cooks later on secretly laughed thinking they had fooled Joseph.

A day later, under order of the King of Egypt soldiers came to take the two cooks away, the King said one would be forgiven, the other killed. The forgiven cook would work near the King, as his slave. One day the King awakening from sleep told the forgiven cook about his very interesting dream, and about what it could mean. The forgiven cook was quick to say that there was a man in prison that could interpret dreams. The King immediately called Joseph, and told him that if he were to interpret this dream correctly he would become his advisor, freed from prison, however if he interpreted it incorrectly he would be killed.

Joseph went on to tell the King that his dream mean that Egypt would suffer a few years drought, and that the King should get ready for it. However, later on there would be very bountiful harvests, the same amount of years as the drought lasted. His interpretation turned out correct.

Joseph eventually went on to become a prominent advisor to the King of Egypt. Later on, he would once again run into his brothers whom he would forgive. He would also find his father (Jacob) only to find out that he has become blind after crying so much over the disappearance him (Joseph). However, Joseph would then fix his fathers blindness. Joseph would end up dying in Egypt. Tradition holds that when Moses (Arabic: Musa) left Egypt, he took Joseph's coffin with him so that he would be buried alongside his ancestors in Canaan.
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:10 AM
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Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 29 2006, 05:03 PM

Do you not see that God became angered by the Children of Israel (who had become Jews)? According to the Qur'an, he sent many prophets and messengers to guide them to the straight path, but they killed so many of them. He sent them Prophet Jesus, and even they planned a plot to kill Prophet Jesus, but God saved Prophet Jesus and lifted him to Heaven. God's curse was upon the Jews as a result.
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:10 AM
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Posted by: Daniels Jul 29 2006, 05:07 PM

QUOTE (pr0mythius @ Jul 29 2006 @ 08:04 AM)
isnt it safe to say that any one ever called a prophet is really no more than just someone that said something that made sense to a lotta people so they deamed it as truth .. or the forecasting there of?

That is a very common supposition pr0mythius.

However, if we look a little closer at the concept we can see that it doesn't actually work.

For example, there have been many great philosopers who have had exceedingly wise insights into reality but few if any people have been inclined to lay their life on the line for the teachings of those philosophers.

With religion on the other hand, history demonstrates that wise, cleanly, calm, gentle people will willingly lay down their lives rather than give up their faith.

During the 1800s over 20,000 Baha'is were killed by the authorities in Persia who wanted to squash the religion. And history is replete with the early Muslims, Christians and Jews who valiantly laid down their lives for their faith.

Thus, holy Prophets of God inspire in Their followers a love and devotion that is supernatural.

---------------------------------------------------------------
An anecdote I heard about Abraham when He was a child is quite interesting.

His father was an idol maker in Ur. That was his profession. As a child, Abraham tried to get His father to stop making idols that others could worship, and suggested that His father should recognize that there was only one God.

His father refused to stop making the idols.

One day while the family were out, Abraham smashed all the idols except one.

When His father returned he was furious.

"Who did this?!" he demanded.

Abraham replied, "This idol rose up and smashed all the others".

"But that's impossible," exclaimed His father.

"Then why do you worship them?" asked Abraham.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry I don't have anything to add to the history bit Sanders. My knowledge of religious history is based mainly on what They stood for rather than an accurate chronological sequence.
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:11 AM
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Posted by: Sanders Jul 29 2006, 05:28 PM

GM10, thanks for the excellent 1st post thumbsup.gif thumbsup.gif thumbsup.gif
Pontormo did a whole series on Joseph
http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/cgi-bin/...rkNumber=NG6451
As for the second post, (God's curse was upon the Jews...), thumbdown.gif
Keep a lid on it, ok? I'll indulge you this - is that your own commentary on that, or is does that reflect what is written in the Qu'ran? Just tell me which, no need to elaborate. Thanks.
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:11 AM
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Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 29 2006, 05:28 PM

QUOTE (Daniels @ Jul 29 2006 @ 05:07 PM)
---------------------------------------------------------------
An anecdote I heard about Abraham when He was a child is quite interesting.

His father was an idol maker in Ur. That was his profession. As a child, Abraham tried to get His father to stop making idols that others could worship, and suggested that His father should recognize that there was only one God.

His father refused to stop making the idols.

One day while the family were out, Abraham smashed all the idols except one.

When His father returned he was furious.

"Who did this?!" he demanded.

Abraham replied, "This idol rose up and smashed all the others".

"But that's impossible," exclaimed His father.

"Then why do you worship them?" asked Abraham.
---------------------------------------------------------------

That story is identcal with the one in the Qur'an. His father, however, still refused to stop his idol worshipping and even carried out an act of killing of Abraham and threw him into a big fire, but God protected Abraham from being burned. After that, Abraham left the idol worshippers.
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:11 AM
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Posted by: Sinewy Jul 29 2006, 06:44 PM

Sanders, where should I start? Are we past the Abraham/Ishmael/Isaac/Sarah/Hagar stage?

Or we still on the Sumerian/Materialist stage? Did we skip the Creationist, Adam/Eve stage?
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:11 AM
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Posted by: Sanders Jul 29 2006, 07:08 PM

QUOTE (Sinewy @ Jul 30 2006 @ 03:44 AM)
Sanders, where should I start? Are we past the Abraham/Ishmael/Isaac/Sarah/Hagar stage?

Or we still on the Sumerian/Materialist stage? Did we skip the Creationist, Adam/Eve stage? 

Dunno, I was hoping to get through this old testament stuff as quick as possible - to me the most pertinent stuff is the Jewish claim to Palestine, the rise of Islam, and the Crusades. But I thought everything from Abraham on should be covered at least briefly. This thread might die long before we get to the Caliphs or any of that but I'm enjoying it so far...

Add anything you think is material - and yeah, I skipped the Adam and Eve part - I want to talk about how the 3 religions are connected and have interreacted with each other over the milleniums. I was hoping to do it sequentially to keep some order to it, that's all. Funny though, once you start getting into it I can see how it might take forever.

Add what you want -
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Posted by: usediscernment Jul 30 2006, 02:52 AM

Defying the God of the bible, and the God of the Kuran...

The biblical God is called Yahweh (or Jehovah) nearly 9,000 times. Yet Allah is not called by that name even once in the Koran. Why not, if Allah is the same God? God is also referred to as Elohim more than 2,500 times in the Bible, but again that word never appears for Allah in the Koran. Why? The God of the Bible is called "The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob/Israel" (Jacob's name was changed by God to Israel later in life, so he is referred to by either name). He is the father of the Jews. The God of the Bible revealed himself to Moses at the burning bush by this name ("God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob/Israel") and told Moses, "this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations" (Ex 3:1-16). If Allah is the God of the Bible, why is he never called by these names?

The God of the Bible tells us again and again that He is the God of the Jews. Many times He is called "the God of Israel." Yet there is such hatred for Israel among Muslims! The Koran talks about Abraham and Ishmael, even claims they built the Ka'aba, but gives Isaac no prominence. The Bible mentions Isaac favorably and prominently more than 150 times. God very clearly says that His covenant is with Isaac, not with Ishmael (Gn 17:19-21), from whom the Arabs claim they are descended.

The God of the Bible calls the Jews His chosen people. He loves them and gave the land of Israel to them as an heritage forever, as hundreds of verses in the Bible declare. Islam denies this basic biblical truth. The Jews are certainly not Allah's chosen people! How can Allah be the God of the Bible, yet not choose the Jews?

In the Koran, as you must know, Allah commands Muslims, "Take not the Jews and Christians as friends" (Surah 5:51, Al Hil-ali, v. 54, Jusuf ali), so Allah is not the God of the Christians either. In the hadith, Muhammad himself said, "The last hour will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Muslims kill them" (Mishkat al Masabih Sh. M. Ashraf, 1990, pp. 147, 721, 810-11, 1130, etc.). Islam's god hates the Jews; the God of the Bible loves them as His chosen people! Allah is very clearly not Jehovah, Elohim, the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the God of the Bible!

The God of the Bible chose Jerusalem as His holy city. Forty times He calls Jerusalem "the city of David" and repeatedly He promises that the Messiah will be descended from David and will rule on David's throne in Jerusalem over the whole world (2 Chr 6:6; 33:7; 2 Sm 7:16; Ps 89:3-29, etc.). Never does the Bible (or the God of the Bible) mention Mecca or Medina, but Jerusalem is mentioned more than 800 times. Yet Allah never mentions Jerusalem. How can this be if Allah is the God of the Bible? And how can the Muslims today claim Jerusalem as a holy city of Islam, when it isn't even mentioned in the Koran? That recent claim comes from those who want to take that city from the Jews.

That Allah has no son is further proof that He is not the God of the Bible, who definitely has a Son, as both the Old and New Testaments declare. Psalms 2 says, "Kiss the Son." Referring to the God of the Bible, Solomon says, "What is his son's name...?" (Prv 30:4). The angel Gabriel, whom Islam claims to honor, told the virgin Mary (Islam accepts the virgin birth of Jesus), "And, behold, thou shalt...bring forth a son, and shalt call his name jesus. He shall be...called the Son of the Highest ...the Son of God...and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David..." (Lk 1:31-35). That throne is in Jerusalem, not in Mecca.

Muslims insist that the name "Allah" must be used in every language; it cannot be translated Dios in Spanish, Dieu in French, or God in English. Muslims thus treat "Allah" not as a generic word for God, but as the name of a particular god. In fact, Allah was the god of the Kuraish tribe centuries before Muhammad was born. You deny that he was the chief god in the Ka'aba, but you admit there were for centuries 360 idols in the Ka'aba and one of these was called Allah. What is Allah doing in a temple among 360 idols if he is the God of the Bible, who forbids idolatry? Why does Islam keep this idol temple, and why must Muslims to this day make a pilgrimage there?

That Allah was the chief idol in the Ka'aba is documented history. Let me quote one of the greatest historians:

The desert Arab...feared and worshiped incalculable deities in stars and moons. ...Now and then he offered human sacrifice; and here and there he worshiped sacred stones. The center of this stone worship was Mecca [with] the Ka'aba and its sacred Black Stone...in its southeast corner, five feet from the ground, just right for kissing....

Within the Ka'aba, in pre-Moslem days, were several idols representing gods. One was called Allah...three others were Allah's daughtersal-Uzza, al-Lat, and Manah. We may judge the antiquity of this Arab pantheon from the mention of Al-il-Lat (Al-Lat) by Herodotus [fifth-century b.c. Greek historian] as a major Arabian deity. The Quraish [Muhammad's tribe controlling Mecca] paved the way for monotheism by worshiping Allah as chief god; He was presented to the Meccans as the Lord of their soil, to Whom they must pay a tithe of their crops and the first-born of their herds. The Quraish, as alleged descendants of Abraham and Ishmael, appointed the priests and guardians of the shrine and managed its revenues (Will Durant, "The Story of Civilization," IV: 160-61).


The Ka'aba still stands, without its idols, but with the Black Stone. The pilgrimage to the Ka'aba, to...kiss the sacred stone, to run between Safa and Marwa, and to climb Mount Arafa, was practiced by pious pagan Arabs for centuries before Muhammad. Why did your prophet keep, as part of Islam, these pagan rituals?

You say "Islam is the religion of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus...." Do you think Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, et al. journeyed to the idol temple, the Ka'aba, and kissed its Black Stone? Impossible! Not one follower of the God of the Bible would ever have gone near the Ka'aba, because the God of the Bible forbids any association with idols; and you admit (as history tells us) that the Ka'aba was filled with idols before Muhammad destroyed them all. In history and the Bible, you will find no mention of Islam or any religion like it. How could you have Islam without the Koran and Muhammad?

The only people who journeyed to the Ka'aba and kissed the Black Stone were pagan Arabs who worshiped one or more of the idols within and around it. Muhammad started a new religion called Islam to which Arabs, Persians, Egyptians, Turks and everyone else in the region had to convert at the point of the sword. They became Muslims, and there is no way you can say that Islam was the original religion of that or any other region.

I've been asked to explain, "The God of the Bible is love, an impossibility for Allah." If Allah is a single being, as Muslims insist, then he cannot be love in and of himself, because he had no one to love until he created others; but the God of the Bible is love in and of Himself because He is three Persons but One God. Father, Son and Holy Spirit loved and communed with one another before men or angels were created.

While the Jews know that Allah is not Jehovah, they try to say (as Muslims do for Allah) that Jehovah is a single being. If so, then why does the Bible refer to Him more than 2,500 times with the plural Elohim (gods)? Interestingly, however, always with the plural noun there is a singular verb. One cannot escape the plurality combined with singularity repeatedly used.

The famous shema (Dt 6:4), the most fundamental saying about God for a Jew, declares, "Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah." Far from declaring that the God of the Bible is a singular being, the Hebrew word translated "one" is echad, which means a unity of several becoming one, as when God said the man and woman became "one [echad] flesh" (Gn 2:24); when many soldiers became "one [echad] troop" (2 Sm 2:25) or when two sticks became "one [echad] stick" (Ezk 37:17) etc.

The Bible teaches that God's very essence is love and says, "God is love" (1 Jn 4:8). This is not true of Allah. The Bible repeatedly speaks of God's love for man and the love we must have for Him. But love is scarcely mentioned in the Koran. Not once is "love" listed in the index of the popular Marmaduke Pickthall translation of the Koran. Of Allah's 99 attributes, love is not one. The Koran does say that Allah loves "the beneficent" (Surah 2:195), "the stedfast [and] those whose deeds are good" (Surah 3:146-48), and "those who battle for his cause" (Surah 61:4). But never does it say he loves all mankind, much less sinners; but the God of the Bible loves sinners, even those who hate Him. Allah is said to be merciful, but he does not show mercy to those who need it. The God of the Bible, however, is merciful to all, ready to forgive confessed sin.

The first of the Ten Commandments is that we are to love the God of the Bible with our whole heart; but never does the Koran say a Muslim is to love Allah. You cannot love Allah, because he is unknowable. The God of the Bible can be known and repeatedly calls upon men to know Him; but the Koran says no one can know Allah because he is too great. In spite of being infinite, without beginning and end, and the Creator of the universe, the biblical God reveals himself so that men can know Him. Jesus himself said, "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" (Jn 17:3). Those who don't know the God of the Bible are lost eternally. No one knows Allah.

The Bible is filled with prophecies of the coming of Messiah Jesus, but there is not one such prophecy in the Koran for Jesus or Muhammad. In fact, the Koran was written after Muhammad came, so it could not prophesy his coming, but the Old Testament prophesied the coming of Jesus centuries and even thousands of years beforehand. The Jewish prophets in the Old Testament said the Messiah would be crucified and rise from the dead the third day. Jesus came at exactly the time prophesied and died for the sins of the world, as the Bible says over and over. But the Koran contradicts this and says He didn't die on the cross at all, much less for our sins. The Bible says that the penalty for sin must be paid and that God himself had to come as a man to die for our sins. Allah did not do that.

How does Allah save sinners? It would be unjust to forgive the guilty without the penalty being paid. Where does Allah explain the penalty? When and by whom was that penalty paid? If Allah forgives, how does he forgive? Allah simply refuses to forgive or forgives whom he will, but there is no consistent or just basis for either. No Muslim can be sure Allah will forgive him. As a Christian I know for certain that I have been forgiven all my sins and that I have eternal life as a free gift from God through the death and resurrection of Christ and that I will be in heaven, not by my good works, but by Christ paying the penalty for my sins. Allah is merciful to those who do good. The Bible says that none do good, all have sinned, and that God saves sinners if they believe in the Christ who died for them.

You ask where Allah says in the Koran, "Let us make man in our image." I don't read Arabic so can't find that exact place but I was told by an Arabic scholar that in the Arabic that is what it says. However, the God of the Bible said, "Let us make man in our image." If Allah is the same God, why didn't he say that?
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post Nov 11 2006, 08:12 AM
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Posted by: usediscernment Jul 30 2006, 03:02 AM

AAAHH... a question about "PALESTINE"

This small region was also referred to as Philistia (Ps 60:8; 87:4, 108:9). It was clearly not “synonymous with the land of Canaan” and did not indicate “the whole region, including both Judaea and Samaria.” On the contrary, it referred specifically to the land of the Pelishtee, or Philistines, in the same location but a bit larger than the Gaza Strip of today, named after the Philis-tine city of Gaza. Their other cities were Ashdod, Gath (home of Goliath), Gerar and Ekron. They were not Semitic people, but invaded Canaan by sea from across the Mediterranean and occupied that particular area before the Israelites arrived.

Thus even the Phil-istines were not the “original inhabitants of the land,” but displaced others just as they were eventually displaced by Israel. Nor can the Arabs living there today (who are Semites) claim any ethnic, linguistic or historical relationship to the Philistines or on any other basis justify calling themselves Palestinians.

Exodus 15:14,15 makes it clear that Palestina is not “synonymous with the land of Canaan.” On the contrary, “the inhabitants of Palestina” are distinguished from “all the inhabitants of Canaan.” It is also clear that Isaiah 14:29, 31 do not refer to the land of Israel from the fact that the passage promises blessing to Israel and pronounces destruction upon Palestina (along with Babylon, Assyria, Moab, et al.). To “kill thy root... [and] slay thy remnant” (v. 30) foretells the end of Palestina (i.e., the Philistines and their descendants). This is in clear contrast to “the Lord hath founded Zion [Israel]” (v. 32), and the many promises of Israel’s everlasting possession of that land.

The “whole region” of the promised land is called “the land of Israel” 31 times in Scripture. Scores of other times “Israel” means both the people and the land. It is an insult to God and to His people to whom He gave this land to call Israel after her chief enemies, the Philistines!

Sadly, most Bibles promote this fraud. Maps in the back of the Scofield reference Bible show “Palestine under the Maccabees” and “Palestine in the time of Christ.” In fact, the land God gave to His chosen people was known only as Israel until A.D. 135, when the Romans angrily renamed it Palestine after the Philistines to spite the Jews (see TBC reprints Sep ’00). Let us not honor Israel’s enemies by calling the promised land of Israel, which God says is His land (Lv 25:23), by the pagan name “Palestine”! And let us oppose the fraudulent claims of those today who illegally call themselves Palestinians.
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Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 30 2006, 03:40 AM

Okay, let me first say that it is false that Muslims claim that "Allah" cannot be translated into different languages. Some are hesistant to do such a thing like call "Allah" "God" because the name God can be pluralized or have a gender by adding an "s" or "dess", whereas the name "Allah" cannot. Because of this, they believe that the name "Allah" seems to be the proper name for God. However, most Muslims believe you can say "God." Just that "Allah" seems to be better to use. The God in the Bible calls Himself "Yahweh," "Jehovah," and "Elohim" in the Bible because it is revealed in Hebrew. To say that Muslims worship a different "God" because they say "Allah" is just as illogical as saying that French people worship another God because they use the word "Dieu", that Spanish-speaking people worship a different God because they say "Dios" or that the Hebrews worshipped a different God because they sometimes call Him "Yahweh". Certainly, reasoning like this is quite ridiculous! It should also be mentioned, that claiming that any one language uses the only the correct word for God is tantamount to denying the universality of God's message to mankind, which was to all nations, tribes and people through various prophets who spoke different languages. be aware of the fact that some Christian missionary organizations print English literature intended to teach Christians about Islam which say such things as: "Allah is the god of the Muslims" and that "Muhammad came to get people to believe in the god Allah" - implying that "Allah" is some sort of false "god". However, when these same organizations print literature in the Arabic language, hoping to lead Arabic-speaking Muslims "to Christ", they use the word "Allah" for God. It seems that if they were on the side of truth, they would not have to resort to such inconsistencies. And on an even more ridiculous note . . . there are also missionary organizations that exceed this in ignorance (or deceit) by writing books that call on Muslims to give up their belief in "Allah", and instead worship the "Lord" Jesus, "the Son of God". Besides making it abundantly clear that they are outside the community of Pure Monotheism, the people who write such material don't even realize that if they wrote such a pamphlet in Arabic, it would be self-contradictory. This is because in an Arabic Bible Jesus is the "Son of Allah"! If an Arabic-speaking person gave up the worship of "Allah", they would have no God to worship, since "Allah" is simply the Arabic word for God! The Hebrew speaking ones of course called Him "Yahweh" or "Jehovah", which means "The LORD" or "GOD". "Yahweh" is a Hebrew-language word. "Allah" is both Arabic and Aramaic. And yes, God mentions Himself as "Yahweh" in the Qur'an. "Yahweh" is mentioned in the Qur'an when God says He is the Lord. "Yahweh" means Lord. "Jehovah" means God. So when He says Al- Rabb, it means "Lord" in Arabic, which is "Yahweh" or "Jehovah" in Hebrew. When He says Allah, it means "God" in Arabic, which is "Elohim" in Hebrew. You are using false language theories. So yes He does use these names to describe Himself, but only in a different language. Another false thing you say about the Koran is that God favors Ishmael over Isaac and that no prominence is given to Isaac. God says in the Koran to not make any differentiate between any of His prophets and messengers. And besides, Isaac's life is mentioned more in the Koran than Ishmael. Ishmael was the father of the Arabs and Isaac is the father of the Israelis. God made prophets out of Isaac's children. Jacob was his son and was a prophet. Joseph was a prophet and was his grandson. God sent Moses and Jesus to the Children of Israel (who were Jews). He sent prophets and messengers to the Jews, but they slain so many. So God became angry with them and His curse was upon them. That is why before 1948, so many Jews were scattered around the world. His curse was upon them. He gave them too many chances, and once they plotted to kill Jesus, He saved Prophet Jesus and lifted him to Heaven. That was their last strike. So God sent a prophet to the Arabs. He sent Muhammad as His last messenger and prophet. Through this, the Arabs were saved and Muhammad sent a universal message. God says in the Koran that He did indeed make a covenant with Abraham, but that they broke it. The Jews became wrong doers. "The Ka'aba still stands, without its idols, but with the Black Stone. The pilgrimage to the Ka'aba, to...kiss the sacred stone, to run between Safa and Marwa, and to climb Mount Arafa, was practiced by pious pagan Arabs for centuries before Muhammad. Why did your prophet keep, as part of Islam, these pagan rituals?" The Black Stone is not to be kissed. Don't judge a car by its driver. Those rituals were not practiced by Pagan Arabs. Muhammad chased out all of the idol worshippers and destroyed all 360 idols. As for Allah, that is false that He was an idol. He was believed to be the Supreme God that no one can see, but they sinned through associating partners with Him. That is why God sent Muhammad to them and the world. No doubt that the Children of Israel were God's chosen people, but they have deceived Him, and for that, His curse was upon the Jews. That is why there will be a war between Muslims and Jews. As for the verses you throw at me from the Bible, we don't believe in many of them because we believe they have been perverted. They were right originally, but not anymore. Like how the Bible mentions that Jesus is the son of God, that is wrong. It never originally stated that, but the Jews and Christians changed it. That is why God sent the Qur'an, the protected revelation. It has never been perverted. It holds no inconsistencies, unlike the Bible. The Bible holds many self contradictions and yet further proves that it cannot be the Word of God today. http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim...radictions.html Also,
to refute that God wants us to hate Christians and Muslims, read this verse "5:5 This day are (all) good things made lawful for you. The food of those who have received the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them. And so are the virtuous women of the believers and the virtuous women of those who received the Scripture before you (lawful for you) when ye give them their marriage portions and live with them in honour, not in fornication, nor taking them as secret concubines. Whoso denieth the faith, his work is vain and he will be among the losers in the Hereafter." You need to know the timing of when a verse came. God also mentions many times in the Koran of how He is pleased by many pious Jews and Christians. He does not want us to fight you. Also explain how Arab Christians and Arab Jews use "Allah" to say "God."

"How does Allah save sinners? It would be unjust to forgive the guilty without the penalty being paid. Where does Allah explain the penalty? When and by whom was that penalty paid? If Allah forgives, how does he forgive? Allah simply refuses to forgive or forgives whom he will, but there is no consistent or just basis for either. No Muslim can be sure Allah will forgive him. As a Christian I know for certain that I have been forgiven all my sins and that I have eternal life as a free gift from God through the death and resurrection of Christ and that I will be in heaven, not by my good works, but by Christ paying the penalty for my sins. Allah is merciful to those who do good. The Bible says that none do good, all have sinned, and that God saves sinners if they believe in the Christ who died for them.

You ask where Allah says in the Koran, "Let us make man in our image." I don't read Arabic so can't find that exact place but I was told by an Arabic scholar that in the Arabic that is what it says. However, the God of the Bible said, "Let us make man in our image." If Allah is the same God, why didn't he say that?"

Okay, here goes, God does save sinners when they repent. It would not be unjust to forgive the guilty if they feel guilty and repent. God explains the penalty as Hell for sinners, except for those whom He forgives. It is true, no Muslim can be sure that God will forgive him because only God knows. God is loving in the Koran. He is "The Merciful" and sent many prophets and messengers as a mercy for mankind. No one can be sure that there sins can be forgiven, except God but you are only to repent once, never do the sin again, and forget you ever did it. If you don't believe you will ever be forgiven, then you have taken the attribute of "The Merciful" and the "The Oft Forgiving" out of God. You sin through doing that. God didn't say that "Let Us make man in Our image" because that is idolatry to believe that you look like God. No one knows what God truly looks like. It is idolatry to draw a picture of Him.

"The Bible teaches that God's very essence is love and says, "God is love" (1 Jn 4:8). This is not true of Allah. The Bible repeatedly speaks of God's love for man and the love we must have for Him. But love is scarcely mentioned in the Koran. Not once is "love" listed in the index of the popular Marmaduke Pickthall translation of the Koran. Of Allah's 99 attributes, love is not one. "

Another lie. Al-Wadud (ÇáæÏæÏ) The Loving, the Kind One.
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