Wtc7 Southwestern Area, Source of smoke? |
  |
Wtc7 Southwestern Area, Source of smoke? |
 Jun 22 2012, 10:20 AM
Post
#1
|
|
|
Group: Valued Member Posts: 2,064 Joined: 30-January 09 Member No.: 4,095  |
WTC7 Southwest Corner Pre-9/11 I've tried to piece together an overall view of the lower southwestern region of WTC7 pre 9/11. South face legend: (IMG:http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/2362/imageygua.jpg) South face promenade (left) and pedestrian bridge pre 9/11: (IMG:http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/9721/imagetur.jpg) Aeriel view of south face (including promenade) pre 9/11 from North Tower: (IMG:http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/408/imagepjx.jpg) As above: http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/9909/imagetix.jpg Cropped: (IMG:http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/6597/imagegerj.jpg) The red "sculpture" seen on the promenade with southwestern section of WTC7 in background: (IMG:http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/7613/imagepmiw.jpg) As above: (IMG:http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/8931/imagebck.jpg) As above: (IMG:http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/3748/imagerxam.jpg) As above: (IMG:http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/7483/imagesns.jpg) View from within the lobby towards the promenade: (IMG:http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/7430/imageunt.jpg) The loading dock, to the southwest of the building, was 2 floors high, and was underneath the promenade. Post South Tower Following stills taken from this video: Image taken allegedly at 10:15am on 9/11 underneath the promenade towards the southwest of WTC7: http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9620/imageous.jpg As above — loading docks on right: http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/9481/imagejfh.jpg As above — further southwest http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/7461/imagebrd.jpg As above to the immediate right looking into the loading dock: http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/3047/imageisu.jpg As above inside the loading dock: http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/4093/imagerupc.jpg As above but showing the far/south side of the promenade, opposite the loading dock: http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/9774/imageqli.jpg Inside the ground floor lobby just beyond the loading dock — pedestrian bridge can be seen — this section of the lobby is 4 storys tall: http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/3665/imageqwkj.jpg Reception area of third floor lobby: http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/7933/imagelsc.jpg As above — escalator to third floor (promenade entrance level) http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/8783/imageqzob.jpg Promenade seen from the west: http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/3239/imagerpqv.jpg as above: http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/4126/imageukt.jpg Post North Tower QUOTE "Southwest corner damage extended over floors 8 to 18 [NIST Apx. L pg 18]" Promenade seen from east underneath pedestrian bridge after the North Tower collapse: http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/7109/imagegyu.jpg Enlarged - note that where the promenade meets the facade appears to be structurally sound: http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911/images...ewithsouzz8.jpg QUOTE "12:10 to 12:15 p.m. - No fires, heavy dust or smoke were reported as they left floor 8 [NIST Apx. L pg 18]" Columns and floors on the southwest corner (@1pm): QUOTE NCSTAR 1A pg 52 "The absence of diesel fuel fires on Floor 5 was consistent with the information from interviews that sometime after 1:00 p.m., OEM and FDNY staff climbed the east stairway of WTC 7 and did not see much damage on Floors 4, 5, or 6 from their viewing location. They made no mention of fire, heat or smoke." East face of WTC7 door open - @1pm+ http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/2589/imageplb.jpg Following video stills of Southwest corner taken from these videos: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/wec...alysis_full.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/wec...alysis_crop.jpg Original (without markings) — note the clean cut (around window line 6 area) and the fact that the smoke is self-contained within that corner of the building with no fires or smoke spreading through the undamaged section. Particularly along floors 12 and 13 seeing as how fires would be seen on floor 12 of the east face an hour later: http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/3139/wtc7holexy2.jpg Southwest corner seen from Northwest: http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/5473/imageilz.jpg Smouldering debris pile at Southwest corner: http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/7857/imageukm.jpg White smoke apparently emanating from debris pile off of the southwest corner - where the promenade meets the south face: http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/2620/221number19.jpg http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/1470/221number22.jpg Above (enlarged): http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/8092/imageanx.jpg 1) There were positively no visible fires below Floor 7 throughout the day throughout the day and alleged FDNY reports until at least 1pm from within the building at floors 5 and 8 refute the existence of fires in the lower floors. 2) This section goes into more detail about the photographic evidence available on the south face of WTC7. So far, I haven't seen any photographic evidence of visible fires on the south face of WTC7. 3) as for the Southwestern corner, short-lived fires were seen above the damaged section at floors 29 and 30 and were extinguished by 12:47pm. There were also smaller, short-lived fires at the southwest corner on floors 18 and 22. 4) smoke was seen emanating from the rubble pile on the promenade, with the possibility that the smoke was funneled up through the "hole" in the facade and possibly from the lower section of the damage. Again, we're left with the problem of the fact that no fires spread from this area.. What could possibly have been producing smoke for close on 5 hours and not produce visible fires or fire damage to the surrounding area? And why was the smoke concentrated in that section? I think that the answer lies in the combustible free lower lobbys and promenade. That the NIST claimed (and visible) externally visible damage between the 8th and 18th floor extended through to one of the lobbys and that it was self contained within that area. Why does it matter at all? Subtract the smoke from WTC5 and 6. Then subtract the smoke/dust that was billowing from the southwest corner for most of the day. Then try and convince people that anything other than CD brought that building down. Whether by exotic explosives, or external forces other than "office fires". This post has been edited by onesliceshort: Apr 21 2013, 02:16 PM |
 |
 
|
|
Jun 22 2012, 02:02 PM
Post
#2
|
|
|
Group: Extreme Forum Pilot Posts: 2,589 Joined: 31-December 07 From: Maui Member No.: 2,617 |
That's what I'm talking about...
People who do their homework (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif) |
|
|
|
|
Jun 22 2012, 05:08 PM
Post
#3
|
|
|
Group: Valued Member Posts: 2,064 Joined: 30-January 09 Member No.: 4,095 |
QUOTE (elreb @ Jun 22 2012, 07:02 PM)  That's what I'm talking about... People who do their homework (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif) Thanks elreb! Appreciated. Thanks to kawika for sending the east face "open door" shot. There are a few interesting shots from the same FOIA released footage that kawika unearthed in the same area. A lot of "plain clothed" activity. I'll post them soon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif) |
|
|
|
|
Jun 22 2012, 11:15 PM
Post
#4
|
|
|
Group: Active Forum Pilot Posts: 391 Joined: 16-August 07 From: Upstate NY/VT border Member No.: 1,719 |
OSS = One Serious Searcher
Bodacious! |
|
|
|
|
Jun 23 2012, 09:28 PM
Post
#6
|
|
|
Group: Extreme Forum Pilot Posts: 2,589 Joined: 31-December 07 From: Maui Member No.: 2,617 |
It would be nice if we could start over and put all of our combined data on one page.
After…have KP50 delete the old threads. The average reader is not going to bounce around. Call it WTC7 by OSS, Kawika and elreb No dogs allowed! |
|
|
|
|
Jun 23 2012, 09:56 PM
Post
#7
|
|
|
Group: Valued Member Posts: 2,064 Joined: 30-January 09 Member No.: 4,095 |
QUOTE (elreb @ Jun 24 2012, 02:28 AM) It would be nice if we could start over and put all of our combined data on one page. After…have KP50 delete the old threads. The average reader is not going to bounce around. Call it WTC7 by OSS, Kawika and elreb No dogs allowed! Or start a new thread and keep the old ones for reference. There's a lot of info to take in. For example, keep the "fires" thread as is (it's way too big, though necessary, at the minute), but I've broken it down so that certain timeframes and additional info can be linked to and edited. I also think that different aspects (structural design, floor layouts, tenants, eyewitness accounts etc) should be kept separate (where possible) so that any final draft can be kept shorter using links to the relevant info. The threads can be moved to "research" when everything has been posted to avoid confusion and the final draft can be posted here, no? I learned this the hard way doing Pentagon research. 2cents |
|
|
|
|
Jun 24 2012, 12:00 AM
Post
#8
|
|
|
Group: Extreme Forum Pilot Posts: 2,589 Joined: 31-December 07 From: Maui Member No.: 2,617 |
Baloney
SE area got 93 views Fire progression got 913 views Fire progressions questions got 690 views Giving “SanderO” a hard time got 7089 views Dragon blood got 90,000 to people listening to me and Sanders…hum Brother OSS…get real… Hell, History and elite got 36,000 views. Why post this...if no one is reading it? |
|
|
|
|
Jun 24 2012, 10:30 AM
Post
#9
|
|
|
Group: Valued Member Posts: 2,064 Joined: 30-January 09 Member No.: 4,095 |
QUOTE (elreb @ Jun 24 2012, 05:00 AM) Baloney SE area got 93 views Fire progression got 913 views Fire progressions questions got 690 views Giving “SanderO” a hard time got 7089 views Dragon blood got 90,000 to people listening to me and Sanders…hum Brother OSS…get real… Hell, History and elite got 36,000 views. Why post this...if no one is reading it? Yeah but the difference is that the comments posted in those threads are in the hundreds. Or there's a bit of "debate". I think you missed the point elreb. If we have a monster thread full of information on so many different aspects, it will become hard to follow and link to. Not just for us but for anybody else who wants to reference the info or use in debate. Just look at the "Pentagon lawn images" thread. It's a mess but with loads of good info. I say keep the info separate and organized so that the three of us (and anybody else) can summarize the findings. I'm not being anal about it or talking "baloney". I just know from experience how hard it is to keep on top of threads like this for others to take in. |
|
|
|
|
Jun 24 2012, 10:46 PM
Post
#10
|
|
|
Group: Extreme Forum Pilot Posts: 2,589 Joined: 31-December 07 From: Maui Member No.: 2,617 |
You tell me where to put the data…
I wasted a lot of time with SanderO. No one want to listen to old yeller! |
|
|
|
|
Jun 24 2012, 11:13 PM
Post
#11
|
|
|
Group: Valued Member Posts: 2,064 Joined: 30-January 09 Member No.: 4,095 |
QUOTE (elreb @ Jun 25 2012, 03:46 AM) You tell me where to put the data… I wasted a lot of time with SanderO. No one want to listen to old yeller! Just open new threads in this section of the forum (WTC7)? Are the floorplans that you have layman friendly? I'd really like to see the floor layouts at the damaged southwest section and where the fires were seen. QUOTE No one want to listen to old yeller! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) . |
|
|
|
|
Jun 25 2012, 01:41 AM
Post
#12
|
|
|
Group: Extreme Forum Pilot Posts: 2,589 Joined: 31-December 07 From: Maui Member No.: 2,617 |
See if these help.
(IMG:http://www.rebrammer.com/images/floor7.jpg) (IMG:http://www.rebrammer.com/images/floor8a.jpg) (IMG:http://www.rebrammer.com/images/floor13.jpg) |
|
|
|
|
Jun 25 2012, 06:43 PM
Post
#13
|
|
|
Group: Valued Member Posts: 2,064 Joined: 30-January 09 Member No.: 4,095 |
QUOTE (elreb @ Jun 25 2012, 06:41 AM) See if these help. (IMG:http://www.rebrammer.com/images/floor7.jpg) (IMG:http://www.rebrammer.com/images/floor8a.jpg) (IMG:http://www.rebrammer.com/images/floor13.jpg) That's exactly what I'm talking about. Thanks elreb! Is there a link for translating those symbols for us laymen? |
|
|
|
|
Jun 25 2012, 09:21 PM
Post
#14
|
|
|
Group: Active Forum Pilot Posts: 391 Joined: 16-August 07 From: Upstate NY/VT border Member No.: 1,719 |
Quote: Is there a link for translating those symbols for us laymen?
What symbols do you require assistance with? These drawings are general furniture layouts, are by no means comprehensive. For example Floor 13 only shows AE's portion, while there were other tenants with different arrangements on the same floor. But we don't know yet what they were cuz NIST hasn't shown us. |
|
|
|
|
Jun 25 2012, 09:58 PM
Post
#15
|
|
|
Group: Valued Member Posts: 2,064 Joined: 30-January 09 Member No.: 4,095 |
QUOTE (kawika @ Jun 26 2012, 02:21 AM) Quote: Is there a link for translating those symbols for us laymen? What symbols do you require assistance with? These drawings are general furniture layouts, are by no means comprehensive. For example Floor 13 only shows AE's portion, while there were other tenants with different arrangements on the same floor. But we don't know yet what they were cuz NIST hasn't shown us. Aah, okay. I was wondering what the hell was going on throughout the east face of floor 13. But the furniture arrangements that are shown are more or less accurate? Dimension wise? |
|
|
|
|
Jun 25 2012, 10:07 PM
Post
#16
|
|
|
Group: Valued Member Posts: 2,064 Joined: 30-January 09 Member No.: 4,095 |
In the floor 8 plans, the northeast corner where the Hess/Jennings window is:
http://www.rebrammer.com/images/floor8a.jpg Is it my imagination/perspective or does the ceiling behind him suggest a stairway (angled, low ceiling)? Or a store room? (IMG:http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/5761/imagesafx.jpg) (IMG:http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/769/imagetlt.jpg) This post has been edited by onesliceshort: Jun 25 2012, 10:33 PM |
|
|
|
|
Jun 26 2012, 09:24 AM
Post
#17
|
|
|
Group: Active Forum Pilot Posts: 770 Joined: 1-February 09 From: FL Member No.: 4,096 |
Elreb - Thanks for the floor plans.
Do you have the one for the 5th floor? That's the floor where they did the dirty I believe. Hauer installed a pressurized pipeline for fuel on this floor. Right under the cantilevered trusses. |
|
|
|
|
Jun 26 2012, 09:30 AM
Post
#18
|
|
|
Group: Active Forum Pilot Posts: 770 Joined: 1-February 09 From: FL Member No.: 4,096 |
QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Jun 25 2012, 05:43 PM) That's exactly what I'm talking about. Thanks elreb! Is there a link for translating those symbols for us laymen? I think these plans show how the floors were built out. In the middle the boxes with x's are the elevators. On the 8th floor, to the right of the elevators is a conference room, with a table and chairs. Most of the rest looks like cubicles. You can also see where they put dividing walls and where the doors are and which way they open... |
|
|
|
|
Jun 26 2012, 11:43 AM
Post
#19
|
|
|
Group: Extreme Forum Pilot Posts: 2,589 Joined: 31-December 07 From: Maui Member No.: 2,617 |
QUOTE (DoYouEverWonder @ Jun 26 2012, 03:24 AM) Do you have the one for the 5th floor? That's the floor where they did the dirty I believe. (IMG:http://www.rebrammer.com/images/wtc7floor.jpg) |
|
|
|
|
Jun 26 2012, 11:57 AM
Post
#20
|
|
|
Group: Valued Member Posts: 2,064 Joined: 30-January 09 Member No.: 4,095 |
QUOTE (DoYouEverWonder @ Jun 26 2012, 02:24 PM) Elreb - Thanks for the floor plans. Do you have the one for the 5th floor? That's the floor where they did the dirty I believe. Hauer installed a pressurized pipeline for fuel on this floor. Right under the cantilevered trusses. Could you expand on that DYEW? Sounds interesting. @elreb QUOTE Legend! My 2cents...the diesel generators at the southwest corner on Floor 5 were punctured and fed smouldering debris in the lower southwestern area of the combustible free lobbys and the promenade. And that the smoke was somehow contained within that area evidenced by the lack of fires or smoke throughout the lower floors. I've also read (have to find link - FEMA?) that these generators were stored in a strengthened concrete "bunker" type area. Can anybody verify this? |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 25th May 2013 - 02:05 AM |
