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The Ntsb Evidence

UnderTow
post Aug 7 2007, 11:59 PM
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The NTSB Evidence
The FDR is not Documented per any investigative or crime scene procedure
The Factual Report (and in reference the CSV Output) directly and factually conflict with the 'Damage Path'
A 2nd independent readout of the raw file further supports these conflicts, and adds even more.
There is no Serial Number
There is no picture
There is no final output (see the UA93 Factual Report + others)
There is zero documentation
The FDR is reported recovered at 3:40AM 9/14/2001
The RAW file is timestamped at 5:45PM 9/13/2001
The NTSB Reports are from Jan-Feb 2002.


~~~~~~~~
I decided to take a few moments and finally collect most everything I've seen over the past year that really does stink to hell and back.
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Sanders
post Aug 8 2007, 03:25 AM
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QUOTE (UnderTow @ Aug 8 2007, 12:59 PM)
The FDR is reported recovered at 3:40AM 9/14/2001

The RAW file is timestamped at 5:45PM 9/13/2001

Wow
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rob balsamo
post Aug 8 2007, 05:22 AM
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QUOTE (Sanders @ Aug 8 2007, 03:25 AM)
QUOTE (UnderTow @ Aug 8 2007, 12:59 PM)
The FDR is reported recovered at 3:40AM 9/14/2001

The RAW file is timestamped at 5:45PM 9/13/2001

Wow

Yeah. .thats pretty significant.

UT, do you happen to have a copy of your FOIA request? The exact items you requested and page dated? Hopefully on some type of letterhead?

Not sure if you used their website form...


Also, could you elaborate on the "no final output" and what we are looking for in UA93 Factual report for comparison?

Thanks bud.. good work.
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UnderTow
post Aug 8 2007, 10:19 AM
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I used the web form, back in Oct2004 iirc.
I did this a couple times with them, and usually saved my input to a text file (because they don't send you a copy), but have never found it.
As I mentioned elsewhere, I could (will?) request a copy of my request from thier FOIA department.

I'll make a screenshot from the UA93 report.
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painter
post Aug 8 2007, 10:35 AM
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QUOTE (Sanders @ Aug 7 2007, 11:25 PM)
QUOTE (UnderTow @ Aug 8 2007, 12:59 PM)
The FDR is reported recovered at 3:40AM 9/14/2001

The RAW file is timestamped at 5:45PM 9/13/2001

Wow

Someone help me out here. What exactly does this mean? When is a RAW file "timestamped" -- when it is first opened? If I create a file on my computer, it is dated from the point I save it out of ram and re dated as I modify -- does this work the same way or are there time/date indications on the FDR file as it is recorded?
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UnderTow
post Aug 8 2007, 10:41 AM
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Here is a picture I made from the UA93 Factual Report where they describe in exact detail the end of the data recording.
~~

~~

Based on this the near exact moment of the crash can be determined.
10:03:11.0625 EDT

You will find no such detail in the AA77 Factual Report.
Compare to the AA77 Factual Report
~~

~~
That's it. Nothing else.
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amazed!
post Aug 8 2007, 10:44 AM
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Thanks for all the effort guys!

If this means what I think it means, it simply confirms what I've thought ever since y'all deciphered the FDR--the unit was doctored from the git-go. The feds NEVER thought anybody would actually study it in detail.

cheers.gif
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UnderTow
post Aug 8 2007, 10:45 AM
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QUOTE (painter @ Aug 8 2007, 10:35 AM)
Someone help me out here. What exactly does this mean? When is a RAW file "timestamped" -- when it is first opened? If I create a file on my computer, it is dated from the point I save it out of ram and re dated as I modify -- does this work the same way or are there time/date indications on the FDR file as it is recorded?

When the file was Created by the Readout Software (RAPS or ROSE).
In UA93 they use "SSFDR download software".

It is not contained within the file, it is a property of the file.
Yes, just like every file on a computer.
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Ashoka
post Aug 8 2007, 12:27 PM
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It's strange

The American 77.fdr downloaded from www.aa77fdr.com has this timestamp

created 10/12/2006 20:20.06
modified 9/13/2001 16:45.38


Screenshot

But when I looked at the American 77.fdr provided by FOIA to the Italian debunker guys (Rob knows them well :-)) their version has a different timestamp

Created: 9/14/2001 8:45.38
Last modified: 9/14/2001 8:45.38
Screenshot

I checked the files with a simple software (in Italian) but I can't find any difference.

Ashoka

This post has been edited by Ashoka: Aug 8 2007, 12:29 PM
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UnderTow
post Aug 8 2007, 01:42 PM
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Yep. I know.

A 16Hour difference, +-1 depending on DST.
I'm fairly sure the file was generated in the Eastern Time Zone.

I have not tested this though. But I got my file a year ago. They just got theirs.

Of course, Italy — Time Zone: CET (UTC+1), so the math from EST(-5) to CET does not work to account for a 16Hr difference as far as I can tell.
This would be for those assuming that some local clock affects the timestamp.

I don't think so, and this is evidence of a further cover up imho.

My file on this system here says
Created: Tuesday, December 19, 2006, 4:06:54 PM
Modified: Thursday, September 13, 2001, 6:45:38 PM

Created was when I copied from the source to this file system. Which is why my aa77fdr.com file shows that. That being when I copied it up there from the NTSB Source.
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Ashoka
post Aug 9 2007, 05:35 AM
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Ok I've spoken to a friend. He told me that:

- If you copy a file in another pc it will change the date (Creation and modified)

You can check this by downloading the fdr file from www.aa77fdr.com.
It will show today as creation and last modified date

- But winzip DOES keep the original date in the files zipped.

So If you instead download the zipped fdr file from here, you will see that the zip file has today as a creation and “last modified date” but, unzipping the the file, american 77.fdr will have something like 9/13/2001 5:45.38 p.m. as “last modified date”.

(you must open with right mouse click – property)

Burning a CD does keep the date too.

You can change the “last modified date” using simple software like this one

Try it! (Remember to uncheck the read only permission in file properties)

Summing up

It's possible that in the first Cds sent through FOIA, the file American 77.fdr had the original “last modified date” (9/13/2001) while in the last ones (the Italian debunker guys received the cd about 2 months ago) they corrected it adding some 16 hours.

Maybe we can compare the fdr files from different Cds received through Foia and see If this theory is consistent.

Those files should be zipped in order to keep the original date.

Ashoka
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UnderTow
post Aug 9 2007, 09:00 AM
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Yes. Which is why I put the zip file up there. The zip is created directly from the CD which has the original dates as supplied by the NTSB.
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rob balsamo
post Aug 10 2007, 07:10 AM
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Hey guys... John Farmer may weigh in here...

Can you all please post screenshots of your timestamps? I may post an article on this...

Or if you would like to write one up UT, that would be a major help... i can fix your typos.. wink.gif

It will be your first article for P4T... thumbsup.gif
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Ashoka
post Aug 10 2007, 07:37 AM
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I'm uploading the ISO image of the Dvd received by the Italian debunkers :-)

[EDIT]

Download from here (120 MB)

torrent here

You can open the Iso image with Daemon tools

Other info

http://www.ntsb.gov/Aviation/Manuals/FDR_Handbook.pdf

3.6. The FDR unit shall not be tampered with or opened, and the recording medium shall not
be removed (i.e., the tape or memory module) until it reaches the recorder laboratory at
Safety Board headquarters in Washington, D.C.

4.1. The FDR shall not be read out or downloaded on scene. The IIC shall caution the parties
to the investigation that unauthorized readout or download of an FDR, following a
reportable NTSB accident or incident, may result in loss of party status.

[..]

5.4. The FDR specialist downloads the original tape or memory from the FDR. The pertinent
data are transferred or downloaded from the original medium and are digitally stored.
5.5. The FDR specialist initially checks the recording to determine that information has been
recorded.

[..]

9.8. Downloading and transcribing the FDR data can take several hours and the FDR group
meeting may not convene immediately after FDR delivery to the Safety Board
laboratory. The IIC finalizes a meeting time and date with the FDR group chairman, and
notifies the group members


Ashoka

This post has been edited by Ashoka: Aug 10 2007, 07:52 AM
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UnderTow
post Nov 29 2007, 09:58 PM
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QUOTE (UnderTow @ Aug 7 2007, 10:59 PM)
The NTSB Evidence
The FDR is not Documented per any investigative or crime scene procedure
The Factual Report (and in reference the CSV Output) directly and factually conflict with the 'Damage Path'
A 2nd independent readout of the raw file further supports these conflicts, and adds even more.
There is no Serial Number
There is no picture
There is no final output (see the UA93 Factual Report + others)
There is zero documentation
The FDR is reported recovered at 3:40AM 9/14/2001
The RAW file is timestamped at 5:45PM 9/13/2001
The NTSB Reports are from Jan-Feb 2002.


~~~~~~~~
I decided to take a few moments and finally collect most everything I've seen over the past year that really does stink to hell and back.

Yeah
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Voltaire
post May 19 2008, 10:07 AM
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Others guys notice the same errors :

Pentagon 9/11 Flight 'Black Box' Data File Created Before Actual 'Black Box' Was Recovered?
http://www.911blogger.com/node/15636

Absent 9/11 'Black Box' Serial Numbers Are Inconsistent With NTSB Investigative Publications (also concern flight 93)
http://www.911blogger.com/node/15658

It's strange that the 'modified date' is antecedant to the 'creation date'.

From the first link, in the comments, i found interesting observations of "MrBill":

2) Any Create/Modified/Accesses Date/Time can be placed on a file or folder at any time. Here is the actual
WIN32 Api call to do just that:

The SetFileTime function sets the date and time that a file was created, last accessed, or last modified.

BOOL SetFileTime(

HANDLE hFile, // identifies the file
CONST FILETIME *lpCreationTime, // time the file was created
CONST FILETIME *lpLastAccessTime, // time the file was last accessed
CONST FILETIME *lpLastWriteTime // time the file was last written



With the program Files Properties Changer , it gives me that :




So, we can deduce that the date of 09/13/2001 was the last date where the data inside was modified. Others dates are the dates of creation/access of the file.

With others anomalies, I say that this FDR is obviously a Fake, as i was thinking for a long time.


I'm sorry to say this FDR don't support more longer the 'Fly Over' theory. I read last time some testimony of the pentagon, and it enforced me in the conviction there was no fly-over.

For me, it's better to give prominence to the 'fakes' of the pentagon : FDR, video from the guard post, the photos of the "walking" cars of the pentagon (see Jack White for this subject), the false testimony of Lloyd, etc

I think you should also more speak about the false report of Sarah Roberts on the website Rense.com :
http://www.rense.com/general32/phot.htm

This post has been edited by Voltaire: May 19 2008, 10:22 AM
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grizz
post May 19 2008, 12:47 PM
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What's interesting about that rense article is that the State Department website, in one article about disinformation, names rense.com as a leading disinfo website. Then, in their article about AA77, as proof that there actually were airplane parts, they link to photos that prove it. And the link they provide is to the rense.com article! Figure that one out.

I actually met Mr Rense last year and I asked him about that. He said, 'We have people in the government.' Whatever that means...
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Voltaire
post May 19 2008, 03:59 PM
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QUOTE (Oceans Flow @ May 19 2008, 05:47 PM) *
What's interesting about that rense article is that the State Department website, in one article about disinformation, names rense.com as a leading disinfo website. Then, in their article about AA77, as proof that there actually were airplane parts, they link to photos that prove it. And the link they provide is to the rense.com article! Figure that one out.

I actually met Mr Rense last year and I asked him about that. He said, 'We have people in the government.' Whatever that means...

I think he was joking, perhaps.

Did you know that three black boxes were retrieved at the WTC ?
link
link
link

But :
An FBI spokesman in New York, Jim Margolin, said after checking with the leader of the Ground Zero investigation that none of the boxes were recovered.

Frank Gribbon, the FDNY spokesman, also said “no one in the Department is aware of the recovery of any of the airline "black boxes" at the WTC site.”

This post has been edited by Voltaire: May 19 2008, 03:59 PM
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Skeptik
post May 20 2008, 10:15 AM
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Sorry guys. Just realised it is discussed lower down.

This post has been edited by Skeptik: May 20 2008, 10:22 AM
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UnderTow
post Aug 26 2008, 10:49 PM
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QUOTE (UnderTow @ Aug 7 2007, 10:59 PM)
The NTSB Evidence
The FDR is not Documented per any investigative or crime scene procedure
The Factual Report (and in reference the CSV Output) directly and factually conflict with the 'Damage Path'
A 2nd independent readout of the raw file further supports these conflicts, and adds even more.
There is no Serial Number
There is no picture
There is no final output (see the UA93 Factual Report + others)
There is zero documentation
The FDR is reported recovered at 3:40AM 9/14/2001
The RAW file is timestamped at 5:45PM 9/13/2001
The NTSB Reports are from Jan-Feb 2002.


~~~~~~~~
I decided to take a few moments and finally collect most everything I've seen over the past year that really does stink to hell and back.
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