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Is Religion the Answer or Problem?, 3,000 years of religous wars

forester
post Nov 8 2006, 05:43 PM
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there have been religous wars ever since there were religions. some say if you remove religion..you remove global conflict. well, the ussr was officially atheist, yet they participated in and started several wars. is religion the answer..the problem...or something else?
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post Nov 9 2006, 07:52 PM
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We can understand the conflict when we understand original sin.

Wars have been with us since Cain and Abel opposed each other.

Abraham, Isaac and Moses all taught the One true Religion to the people as did the prophets and what happened to the prophets, they got killed.

Jesus followed and He too was killed.

The reason is that people would rather live in sin, than obey the word of God.

The One True Religion, Catholicism, a continuation of the religion of Abraham,
is attacked and hated by the varied anti Christs of the world who seek power, pleasure and position over prayer and peace.

Since war has been a part of the earth for 10,000 years, since Cain and Abel were born, it will be here until the end.

Those of good will, must continue to preach to those under the dominion of the devil and pray they see the light of truth.

This post has been edited by buchenwald: Nov 9 2006, 07:53 PM
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UnderTow
post Nov 9 2006, 08:20 PM
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If you continue to believe in Religion, they you will never be without war.


We'll see how long this thread lasts.... /sigh

Bench/Forest
One in Cali, one in New York
One on Cox, one on Mindspring

Yet, they have found an incredible bond with thier opposing views.

Hm..
Are you saying we can not under stand War until we turly under stand Adam and Eve biting the Apple of Knowledge?

whistle.gif
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post Nov 9 2006, 08:28 PM
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The issue begins with Original Sin.

It is original sin that tempts us towards evil or greed and or other so called vices.


Baptism removes the stain of judgment that ALL humans are born with, but still leaves us prone to falling into sin.


Religion offers us a proper conduct in which to live.

One example will do. War. The Iraqi war is a unjust war becasue it violates the Just war doctrine. That says, while all wars are bad, some are acceptable namely a war of self defense is morally permitted.

Pre- emptive wars are always immoral and unjust.

What is going on in Iraq today is little more than cold blooded murder of innocent civilians that we call insurgents.
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forester
post Nov 9 2006, 09:06 PM
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i do not believe in original sin...because it suggests that human beings are inherently "bad", and forever cursed not for what they may do in the future..but for the supposed crimes of their ancient ancestor. judaism believes that each man is responsible for their own lives..and we are NOT eternally damned for the sins of adam and eve. dont forget that gods punishment to adam and eve was clearly spelled out: eve would suffer pains from childbirth...and adam would have to work hard and till the soil. thats the punishment. no eternal damnation..atleast in the Hebrew Bible (i find the term "old testament" degrading to the faith for it suggests that it is old and warn out..while the christian bible is new and updated).

more importantly, i think this is all silly and hogwash. i am just making sure people dont have false ideas about the religion i was born into and have chosen to no longer follow. to me, the hebrew bible, the gospels, the koran, the baghavad ghita, the book of mormom, is just mans explenation for the unexplainable.

i think ill go worship a tree now. good night.
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post Nov 9 2006, 10:03 PM
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The difference between human faith and divine faith is that one is man's opinion while the other is revealed to us by God.


That is the starting point for belief.

Original sin certainly seems unfair, in a temporal sense, since it was Eve who disobeyed and then Adam who sinned and begot Sin for all generations to come.

Original Sin is referred to as the Sin of Adam, not the Sin of Eve.

The bible spells out the fact that God does punish multiple generations for sin.

Religion can be hard to fathom even for the most studied and devout person.
It does require an act of faith to accept.

The Catholic Church teaches that without the Sacraments such as Baptism and Holy Communion and Confession it is impossible to grow in faith, so we must not only live the faith but grow in it as well.


My sons classmate is a Catholic who converted from Judaism.
I asked him why he converted. He said because when I went to a Catholic Mass, it made total sense to me, whereas when I would go to the Synagogue it did not make any sense.

I personally went to a Friday night Jewish service this year. The people were very kind, but it was so odd. The interior of the worship space was 200 chairs in a room with a sancturay but the only object in the sanctuary was a hanging candle and a lecturn.

The service was more than one hour long and consisted of about 10-12 songs
and one lecture by the Rabbi, and a second lecture by a Catholic priest , no kidding.

There was no sense of anything sacred or reverent, although the Rabbi had one heck of a charming personality, almost like The Donald.

I felt genuine pity for the people who were there.
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forester
post Nov 9 2006, 10:44 PM
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this is somewhat correct. we do not build big beautiful temples...adorned with ivory statues...golden carvings....bronze organs..etc etc. these are just eye candy....they have nothing to do with faith (unless you judge a religion by how much gold and silver it puts on its buildings).


i went to st. patricks cathedral in nyc once. beautiful building. must have cost a fortune...of poor peoples money. it really was a site to see...but in the end i was not impressed. because sadly..they just didnt get it. its not supposed to be about the beauty or the craftsmanship of the temples, the icons, the chaples...its supposed to be about the people. im not a christain....but the most inspiring christian services i have attended were in nature...or in a small simple building.
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post Nov 9 2006, 11:31 PM
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The Catholic church teaches that the church is the house of God, and it is to be adorned with the finest materials.

As most people know, the Temple of 2000 years ago was a magnificent place.

The bible clearly tells us that the Church we worship the Tru must be beautiful.

The reason Catholic Churches have stained glass windows is to remindthe faithful of who is in heaven, our goal. And the murals and paintings as well.

It is almost impossible to have ones focus directed towards God in a room that has 200 people and 200 chairs and little else. Your focus is on your neighbor.

Furthermore, it should be fairly obvious to most people that never inthe history of Man ,since Adam has God abandoned his people.

There has always been a leader or Patriarch to lead the faithful.
God cannot expect his people to be able to get into heaven unless he is willing to provide a roadmap.

Without a roadmap, how could anyone expect to go to heaven.

Abraham led the faithful for the time he was on earth and this leadership has always passed to only one person. Jesus passed it to Peter and 265 popes later we have Pope Benedict.

Except he is not a pope for only some , he is the Pope for every human on earth.

Since the time of Jesus, it is only the Catholic Church which has continously said, there is no Salvation outside the Catholic church.

That is seen as very mean and devisive to most people , even fellow Catholics, but people need to realize either every pathway leads to heaven or there is a singular pathway established by God.
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forester
post Nov 10 2006, 12:35 AM
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daniels- as a muslem, do you believe one can be rewarded in the afterlife...even if they are not muslem? do good works and good thoughts count for anything.

i know y'all believe that jews and christians are the people of the book..so maybe i just answered my own question.

but did you know that even in judaism...you do not need to be a jew to be in god's favor? we have something called the "noachide laws"..which are basically the laws for the children of noah (that means all of us). as long as a person follows these laws, they are cool in god's eyes...according to judaism. here are the laws:

The seven laws (commonly rendered as Sheva Mitzvot Shel Bnei Noach) are:

Avodah zarah - Do not worship false gods.
Shefichat damim - Do not murder.
Gezel - Do not steal (or kidnap).
Gilui arayot - Do not be sexually immoral (forbidden sexual acts are traditionally interpreted to include incest, bestiality, male homosexual sex acts, i.e. sodomy, and adultery.)
Birkat Hashem - Do not "bless God" euphemistically referring to blasphemy.
Ever min ha-chai - Do not eat any flesh that was torn from the body of a living animal (given to Noah and traditionally interpreted as a prohibition of cruelty towards animals)
Dinim - Set up a system of honest, effective courts, police and laws.

The Talmud also states: "Righteous people of all nations have a share in the world to come" (Sanhedrin 105a). Any non-Jew who lives according to these laws is regarded as one of "the righteous among the gentiles".
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post Nov 10 2006, 01:23 AM
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If we are going to quote the Talmud, please preface it by noting it is commentary from Jewish Rabbi's.

It is also full of racist slurs against Jesus, the Blessed Virgin Mary and non Jews.


The list is far too long to repeat.

The Talmud was hidden from the Catholic Church until 1220 ad, when the Pope at that time learned its teachings.

It was then he ordered it burned.
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forester
post Nov 10 2006, 01:21 PM
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ahh...bahai...centered in haifa. very lovely temple..i have seen pictures.

as per the talmud saying nasty things about christians..considering how the christians at that time treated the jews (kept us from jerusalem, burned us, raped us, kicked us off our lands, forced us to convert, etc)..is it really that surprising that the rabbis would not have nice things to say about them? you cant treat a people like dirt...and then expect them to love you.

the fact is..up to maybe 200 years ago...christiandom treated the jews like a question...not a people to be respected. "how long shall we keep them in our lands?", "when shall we slaughter them next?", "what jobs shall we limit them to?"

and considering the crusades, the various persecutions, the inquisition, the various expulsions, why the hell should jews view the christians with anything but contempt????

its like demanding the slaves love europeans and only saying nice things about them..or the native americans loving white people. to expect such things..is delussional.

but ofcourse, today things are different. christianity has finally come to terms with how its ideas about jews has led to countless horrors and injustices, and i believe jews should adjust their views on christians as such.
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MichaelMR
post Nov 10 2006, 03:35 PM
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I wholeheartedly believe that blind faith is a cancer that needs to be cut out from this almost guide-like way to precondition people to believe in a non-existent entity.

It PISSES me of to no end how people can be raised in a certain way without TRYING to look at both ends. I was a victim of this preconditioning because my mother took her kids to church and all that bullshit. Until I reached 14 and actually started to take the bible in my hands and read the numerous inaccuracies and lies in it was when I woke up and realize that the book itself may have been historical events, but certainly not the way they described how the world and such came to exist.

It's like how people once believed the earth was flat, but later found out that it wasn't. Except these people absolutely refuse to admit it. It's like how you're a child, first you believe in the tooth fairy that leaves you a dollar for a tooth, then Santa for presents and god to escape the reality of death. Some people just donít want to realize that this safety net is also an imaginary figure. It is so arrogant that it goes so far to say weíre the center of the universe, are you shitting me? Weíre a tiny ass solar system in BILLIONS of galaxies.

I mean no offense to you religious folks, this is just my perspective.

I honestly hope people break free from this safety bubble of the unknown and become realistic and rational thinkers. Itís sad to see so many gifted and talented people degrade themselves to a belief that cannot be proven. It genuinely pisses me off.
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forester
post Nov 10 2006, 03:45 PM
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ofcourse, true believers will say their faith isnt blind...but backed up by evidence. and when their evidence is not 100%..they will leave the rest..to faith.

i say question everything...especially those concepts you hold most dear.
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MichaelMR
post Nov 10 2006, 03:55 PM
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I'm not even trying to say science can prove everything either because as we know, our five senses can only conclude a fraction of actual reality.

However, to believe there is one big boss who determines if you go to a "good or bad" place where you may endure extreme pain or happiness is pretty much entirely retarded.

Iím an extremely realistic person, Iíd love to know if an ďall creating and knowingĒ god existed. However, to this day, itís a theory that CANNOT be proven. Can I tell you whether or not we just die and our existence goes away? No, I cannot. To do so would make me extremely arrogant because it is something that is unknown. However, people who are engulfed in blind faith seem to know every damn thing there is to know about our existence with no proof or evidence backing their claims.

This is EXACTLY why itís a cancer to society, it embraces ignorance and stupidity. It limits and in most cases forbids us from questioning anything that would resort in a factual answer. It has an enormous dependency on simple faith alone. This is something people need to realize.
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MichaelMR
post Nov 11 2006, 06:06 AM
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I'm not well versed in the Baha'i Faith, Daniels, but I can respect any religion that can respectfully say they do not know everything. If it is a religion that promotes self intelligence and awareness, I'm all for it. I can openly say that I respect certain religions like Buddhism and now yours as well, as they both seem to promote enlightenment for yourself.

The thing that really ticks me off is religions like Christianity which people seem to know every nook and cranny about our existence with absolutely no proof backing their claims. I have no problem with people believing in god and/or worshipping whatever they please. I can totally respect that. However, if youíre going to use that as a gospel for everything you do and not realize something within the text is false, even though it has been proven so, is completely senseless.

Religion itself, like you said so accurately earlier, can be the cure and the problem. Why I see it as a negative influence is because of people distorting and using the belief system of these religions to fit their personal beliefs and benefit them. To justify wars, to justify the killing of others, using it to segregate people of race, sex and religion, etc. However, you have religion, which good people follow and abide by certain principles.

But regardless of this, we can't universally change the mentality of people, so as long as these religions exist and can justify such actions in their minds, they will continue to do so. I can respect religion and the belief in god, there is just too many bad apples that follow the same systems that spoil it for the good people, like yourself.

Do you see what I'm trying to get at, Daniels? Itís not a universal hate for religions and such, itís just that as long as it will exist, people will bend and distort itís probable true meaning to benefit themselves while feeling justification towards their actions. This is mainly why I canít accept it.

This post has been edited by MichaelMR: Nov 11 2006, 06:08 AM
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MichaelMR
post Nov 11 2006, 01:38 PM
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That is most definitely an interesting prophecy. I wonder if it did happened, how the millions of religious folks would react. There would probably be riots and protests to regain that right. I can see how that prophecy would work out.

I donít think the answer is to forcefully impose a ban on all religions, thatís definitely not the answer. People would have to come to peace with alternative theories and belief systems, which would be the only way.

However, religious people and their beliefs would also have to accept the fact that some of their beliefs are indeed wrong, which I doubt theyíll do. Itís such a delicate and complicated situation, man himself would need to decide for himself. This is an extremely sensitive issue to say the least.
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George Hayduke
post Nov 11 2006, 09:17 PM
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QUOTE (MichaelMR @ Nov 11 2006, 05:38 PM)
the answer is to forcefully impose a ban on all religions

Why not. See that's part of my plan for when I become king of this world. This will be coupled with mandatory interracial propagation. That's right, same-ethnicity marriages will be banned. I intend to breed ethnicity out of the human race. Then when we are all one big group of people that look exactly the same the world over there will be no more racism because there will be no more races. Without religion, no more crusades. But the clincher, the toughest thing to instill, will be the banishment of the concept of material possessions. No more "ownership." No more valuing things over people. Then there will be no more valuing profits over people. So if you are not married and you are racist, you better wed soon b/c after I'm king things are going to change around here.
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Guinan
post Nov 12 2006, 12:05 AM
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QUOTE (George Hayduke @ Nov 12 2006, 02:17 AM)
....
So if you are not married and you are racist, you better wed soon b/c after I'm king things are going to change around here.



Surely you will consider an age-limit on that Sire... I couldn't produce children anymore if I tried my brains out... Have Mercy worthy.gif
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MichaelMR
post Nov 12 2006, 07:32 PM
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QUOTE (George Hayduke @ Nov 12 2006, 01:17 AM)
QUOTE (MichaelMR @ Nov 11 2006, 05:38 PM)
the answer is to forcefully impose a ban on all religions

Why not. See that's part of my plan for when I become king of this world. This will be coupled with mandatory interracial propagation. That's right, same-ethnicity marriages will be banned. I intend to breed ethnicity out of the human race. Then when we are all one big group of people that look exactly the same the world over there will be no more racism because there will be no more races. Without religion, no more crusades. But the clincher, the toughest thing to instill, will be the banishment of the concept of material possessions. No more "ownership." No more valuing things over people. Then there will be no more valuing profits over people. So if you are not married and you are racist, you better wed soon b/c after I'm king things are going to change around here.

laugh.gif

It's not communism, right?! tongue.gif
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George Hayduke
post Nov 13 2006, 10:46 AM
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"communism" = Stalinism? dunno.gif

I never understood how workers owning all the "shares" of and steering the course of the place where they work could be seen as a bad thing. But quite the opposite is now happening with horrendous consequences. Gamblers, euphamistically called "investors" and who couldn't give a sh*t about the workers, end up owning the places of work and the worker nowadays is commonly viewed as doomed because of it.

Anyway, Mike, I'm sure you are aware that the earth is a closed sphere and thus a closed system. Meaning, of course that there is a limited and finite amount of resources. No matter how much paper money, capital, you print and circulate, more natural and raw resources will not be magically plucked from the thin air. Thus, an economic system built on the concept of "infinite" growth is innately flawed, impossible and thus doomed, because there is not an infinite amount of resources.

Some sort of economic system that takes into account that the earth is a closed sphere, and thus a closed system with a finite amount of raw materials and resources, must be employed, and at a time of dramatic ecological collapse where mankind will have to work together and perhaps harder than ever just to cope with climate change.
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