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Aerodrome Circuit For Johnstown

rob balsamo
post Jul 21 2012, 02:25 AM
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QUOTE (Zaphod 36 @ Jul 20 2012, 09:26 AM) *
I doubt that the pilot could have seen the airport when he was "quiet high"(2000-3000 feet) in this hilly area. I also doubt that he knows the direction of the runway(northwest).
It is fact that the plane makes a 45 turn at the NDB. I guess its standard to make a 45-turn at a NDB by entering a standard left downwind for a landing(?)


Picking out an airport at 2000-3000 AGL is a piece of cake at 20+ miles on such a clear day. Pilots know everything about the airport, especially the runway, before they land. So if a pilot were to land at JST, of course he would know the direction of the runway.

Entering a standard left downwind on such a clear day is accomplished with the liquid navigation balls in a human head (your eyes). Although as I said, the NDB could have also been used as a reference, but again, it was a wide traffic pattern. A normal pattern for jets at high speed is usually less than 3-5 miles from the airport. The NDB is 14 miles IIRC. And again, the faster you are, the wider the pattern will be.

Also keep in mind, JST does not have a published NDB approach.

http://www.airnav.com/airport/jst

... and it has a VOR on the field. Any pilot would use the VOR for reference when approaching the airport rather than an NDB. But again, this doesn't mean the NDB couldn't have been used. It is quite interesting the turn was initiated at the NDB.




QUOTE
Nobody except Jim Stop has claimed to have seen a big plane. Brandt, Spinelli, Fleegle, Delasko are witnesses of the famous white jet and only earwitnesses. Thats my knowledge. Lichty also only heard the screaming thing. He states "it was coming from that direction(?) The direction is speculation. Jim Stop is either not existing or a false name. We have not one eyewitness for a big airliner over Indian Lake.


Dom seems to feel otherwise after interviewing many people during several visits to Shanksville.



QUOTE
What are you thinking about this flight path? I remember this graphic is from New York Times.


I think it contradicts the govt story and FDR data provided by the NTSB.

QUOTE
Is this a possible scenario?
Is this flight path possible to "perform", Rob?



Anything is possible given enough planning and resources.
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Domenick DiMaggi...
post Jul 22 2012, 07:03 PM
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QUOTE (Zaphod 36 @ Jul 18 2012, 12:26 PM) *
Nobody except Jim Stop has claimed to have seen a big plane. Brandt, Spinelli, Fleegle, Delasko are witnesses of the famous white jet and only earwitnesses. Thats my knowledge. Lichty also only heard the screaming thing. He states "it was coming from that direction(?) The direction is speculation. Jim Stop is either not existing or a false name. We have not one eyewitness for a big airliner over Indian Lake.



In regards to Barry Lichty, the "speculation" was clarified in his interview in LC : FC where he clearly states that is was coming from the direction of the crash site which is why Dylan inquired if he thought it was Flight 93.

True all the witnesses were inside the marina, but they also heard it fly over them which corroborates Lichty. Since all the witnesses on the opposite end of the crash site that I have spoken with that place it headed in that direction i think it's rather easy to connect the dots.

And yes these witnesses saw the little white plane Susan McElwain described as well, but that was after they went outside and after the explosion. Further corroborating McElwain.

http://youtu.be/KXTAgFYyvUE

So how can you say its speculation? If witness group A is one side and see a large aircraft heading in a southeast direction and witness group B is southeast and hear a low aircraft fly over them before any explosion is felt and heard what other possible plane could witness group B hear coming from the northwest heading southeast?

[this already reminds me of why i quit visiting forums in the first place....]

This post has been edited by Domenick DiMaggio CIT: Jul 22 2012, 07:04 PM
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Zaphod 36
post Jul 23 2012, 02:15 PM
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QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Jul 21 2012, 03:25 AM) *
Picking out an airport at 2000-3000 AGL is a piece of cake at 20+ miles on such a clear day. Pilots know everything about the airport, especially the runway, before they land. So if a pilot were to land at JST, of course he would know the direction of the runway.

Entering a standard left downwind on such a clear day is accomplished with the liquid navigation balls in a human head (your eyes). Although as I said, the NDB could have also been used as a reference, but again, it was a wide traffic pattern. A normal pattern for jets at high speed is usually less than 3-5 miles from the airport. The NDB is 14 miles IIRC. And again, the faster you are, the wider the pattern will be.

Also keep in mind, JST does not have a published NDB approach.

http://www.airnav.com/airport/jst

... and it has a VOR on the field. Any pilot would use the VOR for reference when approaching the airport rather than an NDB. But again, this doesn't mean the NDB couldn't have been used. It is quite interesting the turn was initiated at the NDB.


Thanks a lot, Rob. At the MSFlightExplorer2004 it was hard for me to detect an airport from a "qiet height". ;-)
But in an emergency case: How can a pilot get information about the runway for the next airport?

QUOTE (Domenick DiMaggio CIT @ Jul 22 2012, 08:03 PM) *
[this already reminds me of why i quit visiting forums in the first place....]

Sorry Dom, I don`t wanna debunk you. I just thought without eyewitnesses its hard to argue about the exact direction of the plane and while writing the last post I came across the idea that the plane could have made a turn before crashing or not and the white jet could have flown westwards to Indian Lake("banked to the right"). Maybe this turn was near(about 1 mile) the Marina. This is a graphic(roughly) about my idea:


Tom Spinelli has witnessed the white Jet BEFORE the crash. If the white jet continued to fly on the ridge, he could have seen this jet from the marina. What do you thinke about Tom Spinelli and the white jet?

Carol Delasko watched the "confetti rain" moments after the crash. Indian Lake people reporting falling plane parts. I think its only possible when a damaged plane is flying over this area. In the graphic this area is more the northern part of Indian Lake. What do you know about this?

Val McClatchey heard a plane and caught a glimpse of it. "she heard the sudden surge of a jet plane and saw a silver flash outside." Link
If this was near her house, it would fit for the graphic.
Maybe the plane was crashing near Lambertsville Road(with explosives). If not we have to explain the crater, wind imprints and small debris.

What do you think about this scenario, Dom?
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rob balsamo
post Jul 23 2012, 02:59 PM
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QUOTE (Zaphod 36 @ Jul 23 2012, 03:15 PM) *
Thanks a lot, Rob. At the MSFlightExplorer2004 it was hard for me to detect an airport from a "qiet height". ;-)
But in an emergency case: How can a pilot get information about the runway for the next airport?


Pilots carry charts of all the airports in the area's in which they intend to fly. Just a quick search i did, but you'll get the idea.
http://www.mypilotstore.com/mypilotstore/c...tion_charts.htm

And here is the NOS airport diagram for JST which would be included in such coverage...

http://www.fltplan.com/AwDisplayAppChart.e...&WINDOW=YES

That is why when you see a pilot, he is usually carrying a bag that looks something like this... (again, just a quick search i did for illustration purposes)




It holds charts (among other things... headset, flashlight... ham sandwich maybe..).... although the flight bag has since been replaced with a laptop at many airlines and can hold much more information for much less to carry.... now if we can only get it to hold a ham sandwich... :-)

Many on-board FMC's can also hold an airport information database. I'd have to check with our United drivers, but I'm pretty sure the 757 FMC's had such a database.


and finally, if you dont have the chart for some reason... and it truly is an "Emergency", just ask ATC, they'll give you all the information in a matter of minutes if not seconds. Runway length, direction, any relevant frequencies (VOR, NDB, ILS.. .etc), published mins if an IFR approach is needed... etc.

QUOTE
If not we have to explain the crater, wind imprints and small debris.


The only people responsible for having to explain the crater is the US Govt and govt agencies..... so far, they have failed. And the data/information they have provided, conflicts with their story.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/UA93_Press_Release.html

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/MORE-ACARS-CONFIRMATION.html
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Zaphod 36
post Jul 30 2012, 03:18 PM
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QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Jul 23 2012, 03:59 PM) *
Pilots carry charts of all the airports in the area's in which they intend to fly. Just a quick search i did, but you'll get the idea.
http://www.mypilotstore.com/mypilotstore/c...tion_charts.htm

And here is the NOS airport diagram for JST which would be included in such coverage...

http://www.fltplan.com/AwDisplayAppChart.e...&WINDOW=YES

That is why when you see a pilot, he is usually carrying a bag that looks something like this... (again, just a quick search i did for illustration purposes)




It holds charts (among other things... headset, flashlight... ham sandwich maybe..).... although the flight bag has since been replaced with a laptop at many airlines and can hold much more information for much less to carry.... now if we can only get it to hold a ham sandwich... :-)

Many on-board FMC's can also hold an airport information database. I'd have to check with our United drivers, but I'm pretty sure the 757 FMC's had such a database.


and finally, if you dont have the chart for some reason... and it truly is an "Emergency", just ask ATC, they'll give you all the information in a matter of minutes if not seconds. Runway length, direction, any relevant frequencies (VOR, NDB, ILS.. .etc), published mins if an IFR approach is needed... etc.


Thanks for all this information, Rob.

My last question:
Could it be that fighter pilots are using the NDB for a landing at Johnstown? As far as I know this area is a military corridor and Johnstown is also used for fighter jets.
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